*Occupy Wall Street*

[iheartscience]

Thing, what I meant was that the protests are taking place in front of businesses other than big banks/corporations (I am picturing all of the tailors, restaurants, etc. in downtown Manhattan) and this would impede their businesses. They're also likely making it more difficult for people other than those running corporations (security guards, secretaries, etc.) to get to and from work and I simply don't see how that helps their cause in any way.

As for corporations, they aren't purveyors of evil in my mind. Some are well run, others are not, but just being an employee at a large corporation doesn't mean a person is immoral. There's greed and lack of ethics all over, along with honest people who work hard and do their best. I don't agree with those banks choosing to lay off so many employees, it's a sickening thought actually, but I don't begrudge them their record profits. And while I'm sure it could have been handled better, but am bot savvy enough to know how, I do think the gov't had to intervene with the banks, the fallout if they hadn't is inconcievable.

Have you done any research into this statement?
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/...zeria_making_big_dough_9j5G8H1kVQMCQgrPPL7rWO

"On a bad Monday before the protest, the shop sold as few as 35 large pizzas at $21 a pop for a total of $735. Now, even though Libertos has cut his pie price to $15, he rakes in about $3,525 on a good Monday, thanks to the up to 200 extra pies sold daily to the renegade hordes."

Exactly. Something tells me that if businesses were being impeded in any way, the concern trolls at Fox News would be all over it.

 

[iheartscience]

I don't know much about it. I don't have any degrees, I don't read financial papers and I don't know a lot of big words. What *I* see, what *I* experience, is nothing I do will ever be good enough. We'll have to work more and more, longer hours to have anything nice, (and my definition of nice is waaay less than most peoples) to do anything for ourselves and *still* fork over higher taxes to "help" people who have more money than we'll ever dream of, or could ever possibly understand in our minds. Lots of zero's? I can't comprehend that. If you have millions and millions, and I have like..tens and tens..why am I helping you? Can't be b/c you're stupid b/c you're the one w/all the money and I'm the one w/nothing, and you can STILL make that out to be seen as unfair to you. You're fricken brilliant, actually.

One percent of MY income is a whooooole lot harder to lose than one percent of YOURS, and see, I'm trying to feed my kids. Something other than chicken nuggets and macaroni and cheese and one glass of milk a day b/c milk is so expensive, you can drink water the rest of the day. Someone who lives in a multi million dollar home, with a 10 car garage that houses 10 cars that are each worth more than my family makes in a year, I really don't think they need to SNEER at me b/c I spent my hard earned money on a damn dish washer-b/c they see it as a luxury. Yep, we've got a big tv. You know what? THAT'S ALL WE HAVE. I've not been on vacation since 2003. We have no money in savings, very little in retirement. And we spent $3000 on a tv. And we're begrudged THAT???? One simple itty bitty thing to make our hum drum boring as hell lives FUN, and that's an issue?? I didn't squander billions of dollars in my ineptitude and then turn around and cry about it and expect people who have nothing to pay for it. I fully intend on paying MY bills-just fricken sucks I have to pay the bills for bazillionaires too.

Here's what we experience w/the corporation-BILLION DOLLAR CORPORATION-my husband works for. How about a memo about the annual Christmas bonus that USED to be a whopping $250 certificate to use in town, plus a ham. NOW, we get 4 five dollar off coupons for the product they make. Even five dollars off the stuff is expensive, so we don't use them, normally, except one grocer in town lets us use it on HAMBURGER. The higher ups/big wigs/muckey mucks got millions of dollars for THEIR Christmas bonus, vacations, flying on private jets, stock options etc etc...and we got hamburger, and that was out of the goodness of a grocers heart. Otherwise, we'd have gotten nothing. The little guy gets hamburger and the big guy feels high and mighty about it. And most of the time, what are the higher ups/big wigs/muckey mucks doing in their jobs? Are they working over time every chance they can to make the house payment? Missing their kids activities b/c they're stuck working? Are they working 10 hours straight w/only pee breaks and a chance to sneak in and shovel food in their faces? Doubtful.

Us peons don't ask for much. Treat us like decent human beings. Is it really that hard? And take that smarmy sneer off your face and quit acting so damned magnanimous about it. Ohhh thank you so much bless you bless you kind sir, this gift of hamburger will do much in sending my kids to college. Your kids and grandkids and great great great great great grandkids will never have to worry about money ever in their entire lives and live like prices and princess, and we'll save $20 and be able to take our kids to the Sunday matinee-but we'll still have to smuggle in our own treats.

Packrat, your statement here is very powerful. I think you really captured the frustration that fuels the "we are the 99%" movement.

I agree-thank you for posting. And almost as powerful is the fact that so many of the right wing posters in this thread have chosen to ignore your fantastic post.

 

[y2kitty]

I don't know much about it. I don't have any degrees, I don't read financial papers and I don't know a lot of big words. What *I* see, what *I* experience, is nothing I do will ever be good enough. We'll have to work more and more, longer hours to have anything nice, (and my definition of nice is waaay less than most peoples) to do anything for ourselves and *still* fork over higher taxes to "help" people who have more money than we'll ever dream of, or could ever possibly understand in our minds. Lots of zero's? I can't comprehend that. If you have millions and millions, and I have like..tens and tens..why am I helping you? Can't be b/c you're stupid b/c you're the one w/all the money and I'm the one w/nothing, and you can STILL make that out to be seen as unfair to you. You're fricken brilliant, actually.

One percent of MY income is a whooooole lot harder to lose than one percent of YOURS, and see, I'm trying to feed my kids. Something other than chicken nuggets and macaroni and cheese and one glass of milk a day b/c milk is so expensive, you can drink water the rest of the day. Someone who lives in a multi million dollar home, with a 10 car garage that houses 10 cars that are each worth more than my family makes in a year, I really don't think they need to SNEER at me b/c I spent my hard earned money on a damn dish washer-b/c they see it as a luxury. Yep, we've got a big tv. You know what? THAT'S ALL WE HAVE. I've not been on vacation since 2003. We have no money in savings, very little in retirement. And we spent $3000 on a tv. And we're begrudged THAT???? One simple itty bitty thing to make our hum drum boring as hell lives FUN, and that's an issue?? I didn't squander billions of dollars in my ineptitude and then turn around and cry about it and expect people who have nothing to pay for it. I fully intend on paying MY bills-just fricken sucks I have to pay the bills for bazillionaires too.

Here's what we experience w/the corporation-BILLION DOLLAR CORPORATION-my husband works for. How about a memo about the annual Christmas bonus that USED to be a whopping $250 certificate to use in town, plus a ham. NOW, we get 4 five dollar off coupons for the product they make. Even five dollars off the stuff is expensive, so we don't use them, normally, except one grocer in town lets us use it on HAMBURGER. The higher ups/big wigs/muckey mucks got millions of dollars for THEIR Christmas bonus, vacations, flying on private jets, stock options etc etc...and we got hamburger, and that was out of the goodness of a grocers heart. Otherwise, we'd have gotten nothing. The little guy gets hamburger and the big guy feels high and mighty about it. And most of the time, what are the higher ups/big wigs/muckey mucks doing in their jobs? Are they working over time every chance they can to make the house payment? Missing their kids activities b/c they're stuck working? Are they working 10 hours straight w/only pee breaks and a chance to sneak in and shovel food in their faces? Doubtful.

Us peons don't ask for much. Treat us like decent human beings. Is it really that hard? And take that smarmy sneer off your face and quit acting so damned magnanimous about it. Ohhh thank you so much bless you bless you kind sir, this gift of hamburger will do much in sending my kids to college. Your kids and grandkids and great great great great great grandkids will never have to worry about money ever in their entire lives and live like prices and princess, and we'll save $20 and be able to take our kids to the Sunday matinee-but we'll still have to smuggle in our own treats.

Can I ask what bills you pay for bazillionaires?

 

[AGBF]

I saw in the news this morning that folk singer Pete Seeger (age 92) had walked 30 blocks on two canes with the Occupy Wall Street movement yesterday and joined some other musicians playing and singing afterwards. The crowd also sang, "We Shall Overcome", made famous during the protest movement of the 1960's by Woody Guthrie, whose son, Arlo Guthrie, was there.YouTube has some footage of the event, but it isn't too exciting. I liked this compilation of photos someone put together to an old Phil Ochs song better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPHP0xZDlnI

Gee, what a surprise. Like I didn't call that one. They did exactly what I told you they wanted to do. But hey, I'm just a cynic.

You're not a cynic, Holly. You're just right wing. Some of us are moved by, "We Shall Overcome". Some of us participated in the protests of the 1960's for civil rights, equality for women, and to end American involvement in the war in Vietnam. Some of us believed in non-violent protest and revered the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther Luther King, Jr.. Songs like, "We Shall Overcome" remind us of that era when we and our brethren cared about others in society, when even the president (LBJ) wanted a "Great Society" without poverty, rather than dropping all the social nets that once protected the poor.

Now tell me, why would your knowledge that , "We Shall Overcome" is meaningful to us put you in a position to sneer? I know that, "The Star Spangled Banner" is played before baseball games, but I don't go around sneering and saying, "Ha! I told you so! I called it!" every time it is played!

Deb, I was around for the 60s and 70s, too; and frankly, you aren't much older than I am. I fully remember Vietnam (my husband had to register for the draft at 1, the civil rights movement, the deaths of MLK and RFK, Kent State, the Chicago Seven, the SDS, and the Weathermen. I grew up in a Midwestern university town where we had our own marches on Main Street against the war. Had I been a college student in 1970, I would probably have been out on the quad with them. But, as in everything, there were idiots in those days too. Like Abbie Hoffman trying to levitate the Pentagon, for instance. Not the yippie-hippies' finest hour.

I don't object to protests. I object to these people and their desires/demands - - for many of the same reasons a variety of other PSers have already stated.

As for the song, I stated that the ex-flower children protesters would be nostalgic for 'their song'. Seems I was right. I find it funny and sad. Since it was so evocative of an era, I'd rather it wasn't trotted out everytime someone totes a placard in protest of something; it's just so trite. As is the nostalgia for events of yesteryear that many of us merely observed from afar.

I never said anything about your age, Holly. One thing I never begrudge anyone is the right to get old. I love it when other women age. Then I don't feel so lonely. So feel free to join me in getting grey!

When you say you don't object to protests, you object to these protests, to these people and their demands, I say: baloney. These people are the people. As in, "we the people". They are, as they say, the 99%. They are the people packrat wrote about. They are normal people. Many Americans are out of work, Holly. Right wingers look for lists of demands posted on boards by a few people and claim that those are the manifesto of, "Occupy Wall Street", an unorganized mass movement with no stated manifesto. It gives said right wingers a target. The truth is that this is a popular (as in coming from the people) uprising that has spread around the country because it has touched so many people.

"We Shall Overcome" is trite because is sung all the time like, "The Star Spangled Banner". I guess one could, therefore, call, "The Star Spangled Banner" trite, too. Another of my favorites, one I used to sing to my daughter when she was an infant, is, "Amazing Grace". That is another trite one.

Deb/AGBF

 

[HollyS]

Deb, I'm so very straightforward about what I think, no one could possibly misunderstand me unless they deliberately wanted to.

I thought that nonsense was another PSer's mode of operation.

I've made my points, and the Occupiers themselves have dotted my 'eyes' and crossed my 'tees' by being exactly what I said they were.

And your adamant defense of WSO as a rallying cry, also, makes my point. So, thank you.

 

[partgypsy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Shall_Overcome
I have to admit "we shall overcome" was a little before my time.

Interesting article about the song and use of "we shall overcome". The song of course started with the civil rights movement, and have been quoted by such notables such as Martin Luther King in a speech before he was assasinated, President Lyndon Johnson condemming attacks on civil rights protesters, and Robert F Kennedy during the antiaparthid movement in South Africa.

It has been used in the Eastern Bloc countries in anti communist protests and resulting freedom from communist rule,
In India as a patriotic song, and in Bangladesh in their movement for independence.

"Trite." yep.

 

[packrat]

Thanks Swimmer and Thing!

Kitty, the bailouts which I understand was our tax dollars and then we borrowed money too?

So, we increased the national debt to bailout fat cats who were already swimming in money, (who quite rightfully deserved the million dollar salaries and bonuses as they did *such* a stellar job ) by taking more money from my 9.00/hour and tacking more money onto the deficit? And then there are a lot of discussions and sneering about the blue collars and their credit card debt...but my few thousand in credit card debt which I pay on every single month, is nothing in the grand scheme of things if you compare it to someone w/millions and millions of dollars who needs help from...who? The money fairy? Otherwise known as Those Who Have None.

Know what else is funny? I think in some things I lean pretty much to the right. I think welfare is ridiculous for some and people will find a way to take advantage of it. But I ALSO think that the POOR are the WELFARE for the rich. They're their insurance. If the rich cock it up, meh so what, there's plenty of stupid poor people out there, we can raise their taxes, make things harder for them, and then I'll go to Italy for a month on my private jet and spent 40,000 on a suit.

 

[MissStepcut]

I've been saying for a long time that my generation was about to get real disillusioned, real fast. I am 26, and I started college in 2004, just a bit before the peak of high school grads attending college in 2009. That year, 70% of high school grads attended college. Compare with 50% of high school grads in 1980: http://thewonksalon.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/college_attendance.jpg


You have a bunch of young people who
1) did what they were told (dropping pregnancy rates is one indicator)
2) got themselves into college
3) took on massive debt to do so (since tuition costs have been out-stripping inflation), and
4) now are unemployed, in debt and scared.

I personally blame education inflation, and the assumption that everyone should go to college, over any bank or corporation. At the root of the unrest is debt and unemployment. I don't blame them for being angry.

 

[monarch64]

I've been saying for a long time that my generation was about to get real disillusioned, real fast. I am 26, and I started college in 2004, just a bit before the peak of high school grads attending college in 2009. That year, 70% of high school grads attended college. Compare with 50% of high school grads in 1980: http://thewonksalon.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/college_attendance.jpg


You have a bunch of young people who
1) did what they were told (dropping pregnancy rates is one indicator)
2) got themselves into college
3) took on massive debt to do so (since tuition costs have been out-stripping inflation), and
4) now are unemployed, in debt and scared.

I personally blame education inflation, and the assumption that everyone should go to college, over any bank or corporation. At the root of the unrest is debt and unemployment. I don't blame them for being angry.

I don't want to pick on you personally, MissStepCut, but you raise an interesting point about your age group and its choices so I have quoted your post.

Do they not teach critical thinking skills in high school and university anymore? Was it really impossible for people to see even back in 2004 that there was NO GUARANTEE that a college grad who took on thousands of dollars worth of debt would actually get a job? Why is it that even now I see people taking out student loan after student loan when the job situation is so dire and the economy so out of whack? No one forced anyone to bite off more than they could chew here concerning college educations. Universities are in the education game TO MAKE MONEY. Doesn't take obtaining a college education to figure out WHY you were so encouraged to go get that degree. It's a business, college, they are SELLING YOU SOMETHING.

I'm not trying to make the argument that people shouldn't have gone to college who didn't have the means. What grinds my gears about the Occupy movement is that people "did as they were told," "took on massive debt," and now don't have a job and are pissed. There are no guarantees in life besides death and taxes. If there had been a lot more foresight on the part of many Americans regarding going into debt over things, houses, and education, maybe we wouldn't be in this mess. I'm just as guilty as the next person of getting myself into debt, but I don't blame the banks or the c/c companies. Mm mmm. One side is equally to blame as the other, imo.

 

[ksinger]

I don't know much about it. I don't have any degrees, I don't read financial papers and I don't know a lot of big words. What *I* see, what *I* experience, is nothing I do will ever be good enough. We'll have to work more and more, longer hours to have anything nice, (and my definition of nice is waaay less than most peoples) to do anything for ourselves and *still* fork over higher taxes to "help" people who have more money than we'll ever dream of, or could ever possibly understand in our minds. Lots of zero's? I can't comprehend that. If you have millions and millions, and I have like..tens and tens..why am I helping you? Can't be b/c you're stupid b/c you're the one w/all the money and I'm the one w/nothing, and you can STILL make that out to be seen as unfair to you. You're fricken brilliant, actually.

One percent of MY income is a whooooole lot harder to lose than one percent of YOURS, and see, I'm trying to feed my kids. Something other than chicken nuggets and macaroni and cheese and one glass of milk a day b/c milk is so expensive, you can drink water the rest of the day. Someone who lives in a multi million dollar home, with a 10 car garage that houses 10 cars that are each worth more than my family makes in a year, I really don't think they need to SNEER at me b/c I spent my hard earned money on a damn dish washer-b/c they see it as a luxury. Yep, we've got a big tv. You know what? THAT'S ALL WE HAVE. I've not been on vacation since 2003. We have no money in savings, very little in retirement. And we spent $3000 on a tv. And we're begrudged THAT???? One simple itty bitty thing to make our hum drum boring as hell lives FUN, and that's an issue?? I didn't squander billions of dollars in my ineptitude and then turn around and cry about it and expect people who have nothing to pay for it. I fully intend on paying MY bills-just fricken sucks I have to pay the bills for bazillionaires too.

Here's what we experience w/the corporation-BILLION DOLLAR CORPORATION-my husband works for. How about a memo about the annual Christmas bonus that USED to be a whopping $250 certificate to use in town, plus a ham. NOW, we get 4 five dollar off coupons for the product they make. Even five dollars off the stuff is expensive, so we don't use them, normally, except one grocer in town lets us use it on HAMBURGER. The higher ups/big wigs/muckey mucks got millions of dollars for THEIR Christmas bonus, vacations, flying on private jets, stock options etc etc...and we got hamburger, and that was out of the goodness of a grocers heart. Otherwise, we'd have gotten nothing. The little guy gets hamburger and the big guy feels high and mighty about it. And most of the time, what are the higher ups/big wigs/muckey mucks doing in their jobs? Are they working over time every chance they can to make the house payment? Missing their kids activities b/c they're stuck working? Are they working 10 hours straight w/only pee breaks and a chance to sneak in and shovel food in their faces? Doubtful.

Us peons don't ask for much. Treat us like decent human beings. Is it really that hard? And take that smarmy sneer off your face and quit acting so damned magnanimous about it. Ohhh thank you so much bless you bless you kind sir, this gift of hamburger will do much in sending my kids to college. Your kids and grandkids and great great great great great grandkids will never have to worry about money ever in their entire lives and live like prices and princess, and we'll save $20 and be able to take our kids to the Sunday matinee-but we'll still have to smuggle in our own treats.

Packrat, your statement here is very powerful. I think you really captured the frustration that fuels the "we are the 99%" movement.

I agree-thank you for posting. And almost as powerful is the fact that so many of the right wing posters in this thread have chosen to ignore your fantastic post.

Dickens anyone? Anyone?

Seriously, I guess vast swathes of the American public is so devoid of any interest in history (versus fantasy about the past) that they are going to have to find out FIRST HAND (instead of learning the lessons of when we did this before) why the unions came into being, why labor rioted, why the government repeatedly suppressed it. This scenario is boringly and depressingly OLD, and here we are, repeating it. So much for the Great Experiment, that Shining City on The Hill, etc. Dead as...several things.

The fact is, this country (as a whole) DOES NOT VALUE LABOR anymore. We have simultaneously doublespeaked and elevated greed into a virtue, while flooding the market with underpaid, cheap, illegal labor, AND offshoring the little that was left after that. There is all this so-called concern for the worker, but the policies in place belie that every single day.

Thing to ponder today: Ever wonder why the OMG OMG OMG about inflation? OMG we can't have inflation! (Even though we lived with it for many years and it absolutely necessary for and a sign of "growth"). Ask yourself who stands to lose the most in an inflationary environment. Inflation means prices go up yes, but also that debt is paid with money that is worth less than it was yesterday. It hurts those who are holding cash (the rich perhaps?), and the lending class (generally the rich also) even more though, who get paid back in less-valuable dollars. It drives up interest rates as the bankers become more wary of lending, BUT it also means that your savings account rates go up too. Can you imagine if the interest rates went up enough to make a plain old savings account a reasonable place to put one's cash - as it was in my teens and early to mid twenties? Those of us little guys who never would have considered something as risky as stocks and always had the heebie-jeebies when we were forced OUT of savings (which paid/pays next to nothing) into the stock market (the roulette wheel if you will), would run SCREAMING from stocks and drastically cut the endless capital inflows that the 401K guaranteed for the investing classes, who (obviously) gambled hard and loose with our endless flow of money.

THAT's why there is so much thrash against inflation - because it will hurt the "important" people. A little bit of it would be great for the rest of us.

 

[KimberlyH]

HereKittyKitty, I hadn't researched it which is why I said "what I picture", and I think it's great that the business owner you quoted is making profits. I hope there are others who are doing the same. While not exactly a reasonable sample size to prove that the protests are helping businesses, it is interesting.

Ksinger, I've been in the position you speak of. I worked for a public affairs company in Sacramento for several years and learned a lot about how the government really works, particularly in relation to lobbyists, it was disillusioning at best. And while we did a lot of good, there were projects that made me quite uncomfortable, but I was in no position to walk away as I was supporting myself and job prospects weren't great.

As for profits, I wish the world were a more ethical place and all profits were come by honestly, and I understand your frustrations, and if some cause like OWS can foster that I say wonderful, but I can't get behind the "All Big Corporations Are Evil" sentiment, it's far to simplistic for my taste.

I am no great defender of the banks, but I do think it's important to mention that 10 of them did pay back $68 billion dollars, something often overlooked (it could be more, I'm on my phone, not the best means for research).

And, pakcrat, for what it's worth What you shared turns my stomach. It's simply not right that the inequity is so great.

As for the protest, I don't see to what end they are helpful. Sitting at a lunch counter actually allowed people to take a stand, sitting in front of the Wall Streets of America just doesn't seem like a means to effect change.

 

[KimberlyH]

double post

 

[y2kitty]

Kitty, the bailouts which I understand was our tax dollars and then we borrowed money too?

How is that bills for bazillionaires?

 

[iheartscience]

I've been saying for a long time that my generation was about to get real disillusioned, real fast. I am 26, and I started college in 2004, just a bit before the peak of high school grads attending college in 2009. That year, 70% of high school grads attended college. Compare with 50% of high school grads in 1980: http://thewonksalon.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/college_attendance.jpg


You have a bunch of young people who
1) did what they were told (dropping pregnancy rates is one indicator)
2) got themselves into college
3) took on massive debt to do so (since tuition costs have been out-stripping inflation), and
4) now are unemployed, in debt and scared.

I personally blame education inflation, and the assumption that everyone should go to college, over any bank or corporation. At the root of the unrest is debt and unemployment. I don't blame them for being angry.

I don't want to pick on you personally, MissStepCut, but you raise an interesting point about your age group and its choices so I have quoted your post.

Do they not teach critical thinking skills in high school and university anymore? Was it really impossible for people to see even back in 2004 that there was NO GUARANTEE that a college grad who took on thousands of dollars worth of debt would actually get a job? Why is it that even now I see people taking out student loan after student loan when the job situation is so dire and the economy so out of whack? No one forced anyone to bite off more than they could chew here concerning college educations. Universities are in the education game TO MAKE MONEY. Doesn't take obtaining a college education to figure out WHY you were so encouraged to go get that degree. It's a business, college, they are SELLING YOU SOMETHING.

I'm not trying to make the argument that people shouldn't have gone to college who didn't have the means. What grinds my gears about the Occupy movement is that people "did as they were told," "took on massive debt," and now don't have a job and are pissed. There are no guarantees in life besides death and taxes. If there had been a lot more foresight on the part of many Americans regarding going into debt over things, houses, and education, maybe we wouldn't be in this mess. I'm just as guilty as the next person of getting myself into debt, but I don't blame the banks or the c/c companies. Mm mmm. One side is equally to blame as the other, imo.

You're entitled to think both sides are to blame, and I certainly can see your side-of course there are no guarantees. That said, both sides didn't get bailed out-just Wall Street. Ordinary people worked hard and took on debt for a shot at a better life (in the case of student loans) and had the hope of a better life taken away from them due to the greedy, reckless people and corporations on Wall Street.

Then the government bailed out Wall Street COMPLETELY, so much so that they're now posting record profits, but did next to nothing to help the ordinary people caught in the crossfire. And now, when the economy has stabilized enough for corporations to post those record profits, Congress, and Congressional Republicans in particular, are blocking any efforts to FINALLY bail out the ordinary Americans affected.

That's the point of the OWS movement.

 

[iheartscience]

HereKittyKitty, I hadn't researched it which is why I said "what I picture", and I think it's great that the business owner you quoted is making profits. I hope there are others who are doing the same. While not exactly a reasonable sample size to prove that the protests are helping businesses, it is interesting.

Ksinger, I've been in the position you speak of. I worked for a public affairs company in Sacramento for several years and learned a lot about how the government really works, particularly in relation to lobbyists, it was disillusioning at best. And while we did a lot of good, there were projects that made me quite uncomfortable, but I was in no position to walk away as I was supporting myself and job prospects weren't great.

As for profits, I wish the world were a more ethical place and all profits were come by honestly, and I understand your frustrations, and if some cause like OWS can foster that I say wonderful, but I can't get behind the "All Big Corporations Are Evil" sentiment, it's far to simplistic for my taste.

I am no great defender of the banks, but I do think it's important to mention that 10 of them did pay back $68 billion dollars, something often overlooked (it could be more, I'm on my phone, not the best means for research).

And, pakcrat, for what it's worth What you shared turns my stomach. It's simply not right that the inequity is so great.

As for the protest, I don't see to what end they are helpful. Sitting at a lunch counter actually allowed people to take a stand, sitting in front of the Wall Streets of America just doesn't seem like a means to effect change.

I'm in Philadelphia and the OWS movement is in a square/park, just like in NYC, so they aren't blocking access to any businesses.

And I should add that I certainly don't think all corporations are evil entities. My husband works for a great corporation that treats its employees very well, and he's extremely happy with them.

As for the bolded, the point of the Occupy Wall Street protests is to bring attention to the plight of ordinary Americans who are suffering while Wall Street is doing great, thanks to the taxpayers' money used to bail them out. (And I realize that the banks have paid it back, but if Americans were working again due to government spending, they would also pay more taxes since they have salaries and can purchase taxed goods, so it's not as if the government wouldn't get any benefit out of it.) The protests may not be as dramatic or touching as African-American citizens sitting at a lunch counter while they're abused by racist customers, but I think it's silly to say they're not taking a stand.

And as far as effecting change, at least when it comes to media coverage of the plight of the unemployed, the protest appear to be working. I posted a chart a few pages back that showed how many more mentions of unemployment there had been on the news networks after the OWS protests began.

So what do you (and other people who think the protest is doing nothing) think Americans should do to effect change? Call/write their representatives and senators? The representatives and senators are too busy voting whichever way they're paid to vote to pay attention to their ordinary constituents. Polls have shown that many of the bills that have been defeated or even blocked from coming up for a vote are supported by the majority of Americans-Congress just doesn't care!

 

[NewEnglandLady]

I am not a leading expert on inflation, but logically I think the best way to weather the storm financially when inflation sets in is to own the things that are inflating. Namely, property. And cash so that you are still able to buy things when they become too expensive for average people to own them. So I can't see the logic in the inflation only hurting the wealthy. It seems to me those who can barely put food on the table would be most affected when the price of milk goes from $4/gallon to $10/gallon.

As for Occupy Wall Street. I have to say that I don't get it. I was reading a Dave Ramsey blog last week that articulated my own frustrations which is that there is no clear message behind the movement. Civil Rights? Clear as a bell. Equal rights for all and that's a message people can get behind. But what is the message here? Is it about gov't bailouts? Corporate greed? Wealth Redistribution? Those are all completely different--some things I agree with, others go completely against my beliefs. Without any message, what are we supposed to be rallying behind.

I'm not rich. I wish I were. But I appreciate the rich--they pay the majority of the country's taxes and by employing people like me, I can have a life I enjoy and work toward the goal of maybe owning my own business one day.

 

[zoebartlett]

Packrat -- Thank you for that post. It hits home for many people, and as others have said, it's very powerful.

 

[MissStepcut]

I don't want to pick on you personally, MissStepCut, but you raise an interesting point about your age group and its choices so I have quoted your post.

Do they not teach critical thinking skills in high school and university anymore? Was it really impossible for people to see even back in 2004 that there was NO GUARANTEE that a college grad who took on thousands of dollars worth of debt would actually get a job? Why is it that even now I see people taking out student loan after student loan when the job situation is so dire and the economy so out of whack? No one forced anyone to bite off more than they could chew here concerning college educations. Universities are in the education game TO MAKE MONEY. Doesn't take obtaining a college education to figure out WHY you were so encouraged to go get that degree. It's a business, college, they are SELLING YOU SOMETHING.

I'm not trying to make the argument that people shouldn't have gone to college who didn't have the means. What grinds my gears about the Occupy movement is that people "did as they were told," "took on massive debt," and now don't have a job and are pissed. There are no guarantees in life besides death and taxes. If there had been a lot more foresight on the part of many Americans regarding going into debt over things, houses, and education, maybe we wouldn't be in this mess. I'm just as guilty as the next person of getting myself into debt, but I don't blame the banks or the c/c companies. Mm mmm. One side is equally to blame as the other, imo.

I don't feel picked on at all. Far from it.

It would be very easy for me to agree with you. After all, I chose the less expensive state school over more "prestigious" private colleges. I couldn't get loans for more expensive schools because my parents made too much for me to qualify, and because my parents wouldn't pay for it. So I went to State U. I had to work to pay my living expenses and tuition, and so I graduated earlier with a less lucrative degree. I worked hard and moved myself to a bigger city so I would have more opportunities. So yes, it would be VERY easy for me to turn around and judge my peers for going to "good" schools, taking out the loans they were given, and ending up where they are now. But I recognize that, at 17 and 18, when people are making these decisions, going to college seems like the only good choice. And that going to a respected one makes perfect sense, too. At 17, I certainly didn't look at Harvard University and think, "OH, just a business that wants my MONEY!" That still sounds strange to me.

I agree that they took a risk, since there are no guarantees. But, I think they we, as a society, cast the likelihood of the "college" bet being a good one in an unfairly flattering light. Recently an administrator at University of Illinois Law School was fired for LYING to potential applicants about the quality of the school. I can think of lots of other examples of how we encourage high schoolers to march on to the next stage of education, and most of the information they're given, about success and job prospects and everything else would lead most critical thinkers to the conclusion that this is a good idea.

I agree that there's plenty of blame to go around, but it certainly can't all be piled up at the feet of 17 year olds who decide to go to college.

 

[MissStepcut]

You're entitled to think both sides are to blame, and I certainly can see your side-of course there are no guarantees. That said, both sides didn't get bailed out-just Wall Street. Ordinary people worked hard and took on debt for a shot at a better life (in the case of student loans) and had the hope of a better life taken away from them due to the greedy, reckless people and corporations on Wall Street.

Then the government bailed out Wall Street COMPLETELY, so much so that they're now posting record profits, but did next to nothing to help the ordinary people caught in the crossfire. And now, when the economy has stabilized enough for corporations to post those record profits, Congress, and Congressional Republicans in particular, are blocking any efforts to FINALLY bail out the ordinary Americans affected.

That's the point of the OWS movement.

I would just like to clarify that the bail-out money was not a gift, is being paid back, and in many cases, is already paid back: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703509404575300502253092016.html

So it's not like the American taxpayer handed over a gift to Goldman Sachs, which is something it would seem a lot of OWS allies seem to misunderstand. But I agree you you, Thing, that it would make sense to similarly lend people money to stall making mortgage and student loan payments while they're trying to get by through this hard time.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I am not a leading expert on inflation, but logically I think the best way to weather the storm financially when inflation sets in is to own the things that are inflating. Namely, property. And cash so that you are still able to buy things when they become too expensive for average people to own them. So I can't see the logic in the inflation only hurting the wealthy. It seems to me those who can barely put food on the table would be most affected when the price of milk goes from $4/gallon to $10/gallon.

As for Occupy Wall Street. I have to say that I don't get it. I was reading a Dave Ramsey blog last week that articulated my own frustrations which is that there is no clear message behind the movement. Civil Rights? Clear as a bell. Equal rights for all and that's a message people can get behind. But what is the message here? Is it about gov't bailouts? Corporate greed? Wealth Redistribution? Those are all completely different--some things I agree with, others go completely against my beliefs. Without any message, what are we supposed to be rallying behind.

I'm not rich. I wish I were. But I appreciate the rich--they pay the majority of the country's taxes and by employing people like me, I can have a life I enjoy and work toward the goal of maybe owning my own business one day.

yup,this is what the liberals failed to understand... i have never heard/seen the poor employed another person, so go ahead and put all the big corporations and the rich out of business and see what will happen to our economy.

 

[iheartscience]

You're entitled to think both sides are to blame, and I certainly can see your side-of course there are no guarantees. That said, both sides didn't get bailed out-just Wall Street. Ordinary people worked hard and took on debt for a shot at a better life (in the case of student loans) and had the hope of a better life taken away from them due to the greedy, reckless people and corporations on Wall Street.

Then the government bailed out Wall Street COMPLETELY, so much so that they're now posting record profits, but did next to nothing to help the ordinary people caught in the crossfire. And now, when the economy has stabilized enough for corporations to post those record profits, Congress, and Congressional Republicans in particular, are blocking any efforts to FINALLY bail out the ordinary Americans affected.

That's the point of the OWS movement.

I would just like to clarify that the bail-out money was not a gift, is being paid back, and in many cases, is already paid back: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703509404575300502253092016.html

So it's not like the American taxpayer handed over a gift to Goldman Sachs, which is something it would seem a lot of OWS allies seem to misunderstand. But I agree you you, Thing, that it would make sense to similarly lend people money to stall making mortgage and student loan payments while they're trying to get by through this hard time.

I know, and I pointed that out in one of my posts above. From my post:

"...(And I realize that the banks have paid it back, but if Americans were working again due to government spending, they would also pay more taxes since they have salaries and can purchase taxed goods, so it's not as if the government wouldn't get any benefit out of it.)..."

 

[MissStepcut]

Ah, sorry. I admit to not being on top of this thread, which usually I try to do before I go shooting my mouth off.

Honestly, I think the bail out was necessary. I think we had some very savvy finance people architecting what turned out to be a very good solution in a situation where not solution was all that great. That said, there's a lot to be angry about. I don't think the bail outs are quite the thing to make the poster child for the system's flaws, because I hate to see necessary intervention demonized.

 

[Karl_K]

Ah, sorry. I admit to not being on top of this thread, which usually I try to do before I go shooting my mouth off.

Honestly, I think the bail out was necessary. I think we had some very savvy finance people architecting what turned out to be a very good solution in a situation where not solution was all that great. That said, there's a lot to be angry about. I don't think the bail outs are quite the thing to make the poster child for the system's flaws, because I hate to see necessary intervention demonized.

I very strongly disagree,,, Jail not bail out!!!
The fed is still giving away money and creating it out of thin air at record rates and we are all are/going to pay the price!
Sure they payed it back, with money the fed gave them at effectively 0% interest.
So the government robbed Peter to loan money to Paul, then gave Paul free money to pay back the loans and called it even.
Peter pays the price with a falling dollar and high inflation while having money stolen from him under the threat of going to jail at gunpoint.

 

[iheartscience]

Ah, sorry. I admit to not being on top of this thread, which usually I try to do before I go shooting my mouth off.

Honestly, I think the bail out was necessary. I think we had some very savvy finance people architecting what turned out to be a very good solution in a situation where not solution was all that great. That said, there's a lot to be angry about. I don't think the bail outs are quite the thing to make the poster child for the system's flaws, because I hate to see necessary intervention demonized.

I agree that it was necessary, but I think equal effort should have been made to bail out the ordinary citizens who were struggling. The original stimulus bill wasn't enough, which was obvious quite a while ago. I think the current jobs plan from President Obama is a start, but with Congressional Republicans blocking anything and everything, it has no chance. And the Republican "jobs plan" is a joke. It should really be called the Republican Wet Dream Plan To Gut Regulation.

 

[ksinger]

HereKittyKitty, I hadn't researched it which is why I said "what I picture", and I think it's great that the business owner you quoted is making profits. I hope there are others who are doing the same. While not exactly a reasonable sample size to prove that the protests are helping businesses, it is interesting.

Ksinger, I've been in the position you speak of. I worked for a public affairs company in Sacramento for several years and learned a lot about how the government really works, particularly in relation to lobbyists, it was disillusioning at best. And while we did a lot of good, there were projects that made me quite uncomfortable, but I was in no position to walk away as I was supporting myself and job prospects weren't great.

As for profits, I wish the world were a more ethical place and all profits were come by honestly, and I understand your frustrations, and if some cause like OWS can foster that I say wonderful, but I can't get behind the "All Big Corporations Are Evil" sentiment, it's far to simplistic for my taste.

I am no great defender of the banks, but I do think it's important to mention that 10 of them did pay back $68 billion dollars, something often overlooked (it could be more, I'm on my phone, not the best means for research).

And, pakcrat, for what it's worth What you shared turns my stomach. It's simply not right that the inequity is so great.

As for the protest, I don't see to what end they are helpful. Sitting at a lunch counter actually allowed people to take a stand, sitting in front of the Wall Streets of America just doesn't seem like a means to effect change.

I didn't say all big corporations were evil. I said that the whole idea of an immortal legal construct claiming natural rights (by twisting the 14th Amendment) that rightly only belong to a DNA-bearing human, is evil. Call it a conflict of interest, or waving meat in front of a lion, whatever, but the corporation as it is currently constructed, is an invitation to be unethical at best and yes, EVIL at worst.

"Of the cases in this court in which the Fourteenth Amendment was applied during its first fifty years after its adoption, less than one half of on percent invoked it in protection of the Negro race, and more than fifty percent asked that its benefits be extended to corporations." -- Justice Hugo Black, 1938

I suggest the book "Unequal Protection - How Corporations Became "People" -- And How You Can Fight Back"" by Thom Hartmann.
I promise it is not simplistic in the least.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Ah, sorry. I admit to not being on top of this thread, which usually I try to do before I go shooting my mouth off.

Honestly, I think the bail out was necessary. I think we had some very savvy finance people architecting what turned out to be a very good solution in a situation where not solution was all that great. That said, there's a lot to be angry about. I don't think the bail outs are quite the thing to make the poster child for the system's flaws, because I hate to see necessary intervention demonized.

I agree that it was necessary, but I think equal effort should have been made to bail out the ordinary citizens who were struggling. The original stimulus bill wasn't enough, which was obvious quite a while ago. I think the current jobs plan from President Obama is a start, but with Congressional Republicans blocking anything and everything, it has no chance. And the Republican "jobs plan" is a joke. It should really be called the Republican Wet Dream Plan To Gut Regulation.

i wish our government stop living off of credit cards...

 

[movie zombie]

Packrat -- Thank you for that post. It hits home for many people, and as others have said, it's very powerful.

another vote of thanks, Packrat.

yes, Dickens does come to mind.........

if the rich provide so many jobs why are there not more jobs after all the years of tax cuts for the rich? is it because they do not invest their $ in business in this country but overseas or could it be that they are merely dealing with derivatives and such which do not generate jobs except for those in the banking/investing industry?

see the movie Margin Call playing now in theatres. there is a line in which a character says "i know i don't work as hard as you" to his boss and the boss played by kevin spacey replies, "no you don't.....trust me, i know". seriously, see the movie. it isn't preachy at all. it even gives the "otherside's" view point........

 

[iheartscience]

Packrat -- Thank you for that post. It hits home for many people, and as others have said, it's very powerful.

another vote of thanks, Packrat.

yes, Dickens does come to mind.........

if the rich provide so many jobs why are there not more jobs after all the years of tax cuts for the rich? is it because they do not invest their $ in business in this country but overseas or could it be that they are merely dealing with derivatives and such which do not generate jobs except for those in the banking/investing industry?

see the movie Margin Call playing now in theatres. there is a line in which a character says "i know i don't work as hard as you" to his boss and the boss played by kevin spacey replies, "no you don't.....trust me, i know". seriously, see the movie. it isn't preachy at all. it even gives the "otherside's" view point........

Exactly. The climate has never been more favorable for the "job creators" to create jobs, so where are all the jobs?! Apparently deregulation + super low taxes isn't the magical formula for economic prosperity.

 

[MissStepcut]

I totally agree that we under-tax the top earners as a portion of their personal income tax. What are they going to do, move to Jamaica? I sort of doubt it, because they would miss the infrastructure and other benefits of the first world, and other first would countries aren't exactly light-handed with the personal income tax. Some states have seen that raising their personal income tax resulted in the wealthy moving over the border, but I just don't see that happening if the new taxes were national.

 

[movie zombie]

[quote="movie zombie|1319589545|3047600see the movie Margin Call playing now in theatres. there is a line in which a character says "i know i don't work as hard as you" to his boss and the boss played by kevin spacey replies, "no you don't.....trust me, i know". seriously, see the movie. it isn't preachy at all. it even gives the "otherside's" view point........[/quote]

got the quote wrong: employee says "i know you work harder than me" and spacey's character says "no i don't....trust me, i know".