*Occupy Wall Street*

[AGBF]

Although the, "Occupy Wall Street" movement has been going on for weeks, I don't think anyone has yet started a thread on it. It is being discussed in the media with increasing frequency as it spreads geographically and it grows in size. Here is a link to a recent article (with some excellent photographs) about it from a Salt Lake City, Utah newspaper.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/world/52727876-68/protesters-park-movement-street.html.csp

Deb/AGBF

 

[Regular Guy]

It's a sleeper for me.

Yes, on for several weeks. Just over a week ago, my office colleague made a comment about it, and it didn't have much traction.

But, several days ago, a friend posted an "occupy sukkot" facebook page on facebook, and this seemed to open it up for me.

Now, I see this phenomena everywhere, see it being commented on, and I comment on it frequently in different contexts. I do think it does not easily have definition, but that's what it is.

I now do find it somewhat omnipresent.

It almost captures the imagination.

Maybe not quite.

But, it seems many are eating well (in NY...though it's apparently everywhere).

Ira Z.

 

[Circe]

I have mixed feelings about it.

I'm securely ensconced in the Left, but I'm not as extreme as some of my friends. For them, this is a heartening sign that change is in the air, the biggest protest movement since the Civil Rights era, a rallying cry and a lightning rod and a banner to gather beneath all rolled together (if you'll pardon the deliberately mixed metaphor). One of my friends, a real red-diaper baby, insists that protests aren't intended to change the minds of those in power, nor to suggest solutions to them (they should fix their own damned mistakes), but simply a means for fellow activists to find one another, to flex their muscles, and to show solidarity.

That's all well and good, but, for me, personally? My parents got out from under the Iron Curtain in the 70s. I wasn't raised with this valorization of people getting tear-gassed for no damn good reason other than their desire to demonstrate their ability to win/lose a game of chicken with the cops. I don't believe that any sit-in, anywhere, ever did jack: I think change has consistently been brought about by the financial pressures exerted by organized labor, by the gradual consensus that's demonstrated through lawsuit after lawsuit, by the hard damned work that people have done by standing firm, not for a day or a week, but for years when they've moved into neighborhoods where they aren't wanted or taken jobs which would have preferred to bar them.

So while I'm kind of tickled to see so many people pulling together to show their displeasure with the way our country's economy is going, I was bloody well horrified when my friend wanted to go down to Zuccotti Park to resist Bloomberg's efforts to disperse the crowd. She has asthma. Is a point of principle with, well, no actual point worth the risk of getting hurt? I'd say no. But maybe I'm a wuss, or missing the point entirely. Even so, I'd rather be over here with my little one-woman letter-writing campaign, donating to the organizations that promote my causes and trying to get something, anything, done than wasting my time letting the world know how angry I am.

At the end of the day, the world doesn't care about my feelings. It might, however, care about my vote, my money, or my litigious nature.

 

[MissStepcut]

I was going to start a thread to ask:

How is foreign media covering this? How widespread are they saying it is? What do they say the talking points are?

Some friends and I were contemplating going to Occupy Chicago, but it occurred to us that as future corporate lawyers and I-Bank employees... we might not be super welcome.

 

[Black Jade]

Just curious, Circe. Your parents escaped from an Iron Curtain country, yet you have (somewhat) leftist views. This makes me honestly curious because I have not run into this before. Everyone I know who personally escaped or even had parents escape from Iron Curtain countries are very very conservative. I tend to be socially conservative (more and more as I get older, as a young person I was quite 'radical'--I think now mostly because my friends and teachers were) but not as conservative as they are. Am I wrong in my impressions from the people I have met? ARe there many others like you (that you know)? Why do you have lefist (ish) views when your parents disliked the Iron Curtain enough to run away from it (quite a dangerous thing to do in the 1970's?

I promise not to take issue with anything you say or even discuss it--I am just sincerely very curious, if you would find it in your heart to answer me, even briefly, becuase it is so outside my experience.

 

[Circe]

Just curious, Circe. Your parents escaped from an Iron Curtain country, yet you have (somewhat) leftist views. This makes me honestly curious because I have not run into this before. Everyone I know who personally escaped or even had parents escape from Iron Curtain countries are very very conservative. I tend to be socially conservative (more and more as I get older, as a young person I was quite 'radical'--I think now mostly because my friends and teachers were) but not as conservative as they are. Am I wrong in my impressions from the people I have met? ARe there many others like you (that you know)? Why do you have lefist (ish) views when your parents disliked the Iron Curtain enough to run away from it (quite a dangerous thing to do in the 1970's?

I promise not to take issue with anything you say or even discuss it--I am just sincerely very curious, if you would find it in your heart to answer me, even briefly, becuase it is so outside my experience.

Not a problem at all - you know me, I like to dissect things. As it happens, my parents are fairly conservative on most social issues, so we have plenty of fun debates on everything from gay marriage to gender equality in the workplace. But on what America terms "financial issues," encompassing everything from Social Security to health care, they're actually probably closer to the Left than they think: they still miss Russia's medical care and social support networks, for example, and remain horrified at the American system. They were intelligensia, and left for religious and cultural reasons, and not out of pure ideological disillusionment (they're considered to have a "mixed marriage," as my father is Jewish, and my mother isn't, at least not on paper, because her mom opted to leave that space blank ... for obvious reasons): while they think Communism was a nightmare, they're cynical enough to consider America's two-party system to be a case of "Say hello to the new boss, same as the old boss." At the end of the day, they think everybody's corrupt, and as I get older, I find it harder and harder to disagree with them.

As for me? Well, I bless my parents for encouraging me to form my own views on things: they answered all my questions but didn't try to indoctrinate me into anything, religiously, politically, or otherwise - just started debating with me once I'd formed them. So I grew up your basic New York school-child in a largely immigrant working-class neighborhood. I might be a little more liberal than many of my childhood peers as a result of my specific family situation, but not by much, I don't think. It may be Jewish culture overriding Eastern European culture, to some extent, as there is a definite tendency to lean left in that community.

But to circle back 'round to OWS - I'm pretty sure if I were to ask my parents, their take would be the only slightly-more-belligerent version of mine: good cause, ineffectual way of getting anything accomplished. One of the things they quite like about the US is that you can say just what you like: the idea of protesting without a clear message? Anathema.

 

[Imdanny]

I'm sorry but I'm ignoring it. I'm disillusioned with politics, and, news, media, and politics freak me out. I don't feel that I have any control over anything. I don't even have any control over which candidate will get my state's electoral votes. It's Obama's home state. Frankly, I have no idea whether this thing is serious or just one more of these coalitions that seem to form for something (e.g. heath care reform) only to fold like cheap suits. I don't feel like anyone is going to listen to me. And why should they? I just don't even bother with politics anymore. These subjects upset me to the point where it's just better if I don't follow them. I started a thread on this the other day (about not looking at news and then googling the nuclear disaster in Japan after going cold turkey for over a month). I just have as much to think about in my day to day life as I can handle. I'm on the left and proud of it. I'm just sick of the left not being able to articulate the principles we stand for and not standing up for the achievements we have won. I'd be glad if this were different but following news to me is like trying to follow a soap opera. My emotional investment isn't necessary and just ends up aggravating me to the point where I suffer from being upset all the time. In fact this is one of the reasons I'm very into PS type things right now. Oh, pretty! You know what I mean? I don't have to conceptualize it or at least not to the extent that it's out of my control.

 

[ladypirate]

I went down to the first afternoon of the "Occupy" protest in our city--I want to be optimistic that something will actually come of it but I was so disillusioned after the Iraq war protests 10 years ago that I find it hard to get super excited. I am not able to stay down there day after day, but I hope that those that are doing so are accomplishing something.

 

[Arkteia]

Just curious, Circe. Your parents escaped from an Iron Curtain country, yet you have (somewhat) leftist views. This makes me honestly curious because I have not run into this before. Everyone I know who personally escaped or even had parents escape from Iron Curtain countries are very very conservative. I tend to be socially conservative (more and more as I get older, as a young person I was quite 'radical'--I think now mostly because my friends and teachers were) but not as conservative as they are. Am I wrong in my impressions from the people I have met? ARe there many others like you (that you know)? Why do you have lefist (ish) views when your parents disliked the Iron Curtain enough to run away from it (quite a dangerous thing to do in the 1970's?

I promise not to take issue with anything you say or even discuss it--I am just sincerely very curious, if you would find it in your heart to answer me, even briefly, becuase it is so outside my experience.

Not a problem at all - you know me, I like to dissect things. As it happens, my parents are fairly conservative on most social issues, so we have plenty of fun debates on everything from gay marriage to gender equality in the workplace. But on what America terms "financial issues," encompassing everything from Social Security to health care, they're actually probably closer to the Left than they think: they still miss Russia's medical care and social support networks, for example, and remain horrified at the American system. They were intelligensia, and left for religious and cultural reasons, and not out of pure ideological disillusionment (they're considered to have a "mixed marriage," as my father is Jewish, and my mother isn't, at least not on paper, because her mom opted to leave that space blank ... for obvious reasons): while they think Communism was a nightmare, they're cynical enough to consider America's two-party system to be a case of "Say hello to the new boss, same as the old boss." At the end of the day, they think everybody's corrupt, and as I get older, I find it harder and harder to disagree with them.

As for me? Well, I bless my parents for encouraging me to form my own views on things: they answered all my questions but didn't try to indoctrinate me into anything, religiously, politically, or otherwise - just started debating with me once I'd formed them. So I grew up your basic New York school-child in a largely immigrant working-class neighborhood. I might be a little more liberal than many of my childhood peers as a result of my specific family situation, but not by much, I don't think. It may be Jewish culture overriding Eastern European culture, to some extent, as there is a definite tendency to lean left in that community.

But to circle back 'round to OWS - I'm pretty sure if I were to ask my parents, their take would be the only slightly-more-belligerent version of mine: good cause, ineffectual way of getting anything accomplished. One of the things they quite like about the US is that you can say just what you like: the idea of protesting without a clear message? Anathema.

Circe... you are from a different generation, and yet, I agree... we, my husband and I, came from Russia in the 90-es when we were adults and I feel that we are the only liberals in our community... to put it mildly, we do not even meet with our Russian friends during the elections. I think my husband got "infected" with the "bacilla of democracy" when he was living in Canada, and I worked in a very liberal American-Irish Bostonian company for a year... you do not just get it when you come straight to the US from Russia. One of the simplest explanations I heard was that ironically, most US Presidents who ever visited the USSR and then Russia were the Republicans. So the Russians used to "recognize" the Republican party.

AGBF - sorry for threadjacking. My husband follows "Occupy Wall Street"; thanks for posting about it.

 

[Imdanny]

a real red-diaper baby, insists that protests aren't intended to change the minds of those in power, nor to suggest solutions to them (they should fix their own damned mistakes), but simply a means for fellow activists to find one another, to flex their muscles, and to show solidarity.

That's all well and good, but, for me, personally? My parents got out from under the Iron Curtain in the 70s. I wasn't raised with this valorization of people getting tear-gassed for no damn good reason other than their desire to demonstrate their ability to win/lose a game of chicken with the cops. I don't believe that any sit-in, anywhere, ever did jack: I think change has consistently been brought about by the financial pressures exerted by organized labor, by the gradual consensus that's demonstrated through lawsuit after lawsuit, by the hard damned work that people have done by standing firm, not for a day or a week, but for years when they've moved into neighborhoods where they aren't wanted or taken jobs which would have preferred to bar them.

Circe,

I don't understand. What's a red-diaper baby? Is that a communist baby?

I'm also confused about this: "I don't believe that any sit-in, anywhere, ever did jack..."

I'm not being argumentative. I'm not trying to argue or debate with you at all. I'd just like to note that sit-in ('s, I'm guessing) have brought about change. This is the most famous one (as far as I know). In fact they actually put this lunch counter in the Smithsonian. You can see it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensboro_sit-ins

Please note I'm not comparing OWS with a sit-in, a demonstration, a labor strike, or a civil rights march. I said I'm ignoring it and I meant it. I haven't followed it from the beginning. It seemed to start during my self-imposed news black-out. I only found out about it because someone on another forum I post at started a thread about it. I don't know anything about it.

I do hope your friend doesn't get hurt.

Respectfully,

Danny

 

[Trekkie]

On a lighter note...

 

[Circe]

Circe,

I don't understand. What's a red-diaper baby? Is that a communist baby?

I'm also confused about this: "I don't believe that any sit-in, anywhere, ever did jack..."

I'm not being argumentative. I'm not trying to argue or debate with you at all. I'd just like to note that sit-in ('s, I'm guessing) have brought about change. This is the most famous one (as far as I know). In fact they actually put this lunch counter in the Smithsonian. You can see it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensboro_sit-ins

Please note I'm not comparing OWS with a sit-in, a demonstration, a labor strike, or a civil rights march. I said I'm ignoring it and I meant it. I haven't followed it from the beginning. It seemed to start during my self-imposed news black-out. I only found out about it because someone on another forum I post at started a thread about it. I don't know anything about it.

I do hope your friend doesn't get hurt.

Respectfully,

Danny

Danny - it can mean that, but more colloquially, it just means a child raised in a really Lefty household. So while her folks never joined the party, they did raise her to prioritize individual liberties and the common good over profit and personal gains.

And ... hm, I'd forgotten Greensboro. Maybe I'm turning into a cynical old fart. Maybe there might be something to this whole thing, after all. The key difference, for me, is that at Greensboro, protesters wanted a very specific change, and were performing a specific and easy-to-understand form of protest to communicate that desire. Wanna desegregate your lunch counter? Sit at it! Whereas occupying a park ... not so much with the clarity.

 

[Imdanny]

... not so much with the clarity.

Circe, interestingly enough this is exactly what the critics of it on my other board are saying.

And interestingly enough the guy who has the most problem with it keeps calling it Occupy Sesame Street. I wanted to rip that person a new one but seeing this funny picture makes me feel a lot better. Thanks, Trekkie. LOL!

 

[Black Jade]

Thank you for your reply, Circe and also for your input Crasru. I think I understand what you are saying and it casts an interesting light on things for me.

 

[minousbijoux]

I think it is the beginning of people empowering to make a change. This first form of it may or may not be effectual, as the weather changes, people get tired of it, etc. I am rooting for them, and when they are ready and organized into something resembling a political party with a specific platform of changes to be put forward (which has to happen if they are going to effectuate change), then I will do my part.

Sadly, I heard today on the radio that the Occupy Downtown Oakland (can't remember its exact name) was making headlines as it was overrun with rats, drugs and drunks and fistfights. Not a great way to get attention for the cause, unfortunately. It surely seems like some are running with few hitches in an organized and united way; others, like Oakland, not so much.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Just curious, Circe. Your parents escaped from an Iron Curtain country, yet you have (somewhat) leftist views. This makes me honestly curious because I have not run into this before. Everyone I know who personally escaped or even had parents escape from Iron Curtain countries are very very conservative. I tend to be socially conservative (more and more as I get older, as a young person I was quite 'radical'--I think now mostly because my friends and teachers were) but not as conservative as they are. Am I wrong in my impressions from the people I have met? ARe there many others like you (that you know)? Why do you have lefist (ish) views when your parents disliked the Iron Curtain enough to run away from it (quite a dangerous thing to do in the 1970's?

I promise not to take issue with anything you say or even discuss it--I am just sincerely very curious, if you would find it in your heart to answer me, even briefly, becuase it is so outside my experience.

 

[HollyS]

What do I think?

It will accomplish nothing productive.
It could cost innocent people money - those who have 401Ks invested in the stock market, for instance.
It is extremely unsanitary, messy, and a complete pain in the a$$ to those who must clean up and provide law enforcement.
It is a college hipster's dream to have a reason to stage a 'sit in', so they can be more like their 60s icons. (Uh, even Jerry Rubin eventually went Wall Street.)
It is a walk down memory lane for aging 60s protesters. Those were the good old days, huh? "We shall overcome-uh-um; we shall overcome-uh-um; we shall overcome some day-a-a".
It is an excuse for Hollywood's left to mount a soapbox. "Ooo, look! A cause! A chance to be relevant again." (As if. You're only relevant in Hollywood if you're a Kardashian or a Twilight actor).

I think there should be laws in place that allow protests, but not at the expense of millions in policing and cleanup. There should be laws that do not allow what is essentially 'squatting'.

Go ahead. Protest. March. Flail your arms and scream your obscentities at your target. But at some point, you gotta go home. Maybe if the rest of us ignore you, and the media goes "oh, yawn, another protest", you'll pack it in.

That's what I think.

 

[Imdanny]

Those were the good old days, huh? "We shall overcome-uh-um; we shall overcome-uh-um; we shall overcome some day-a-a".

Your post reminded me of my interest in this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memphis_Sanitation_Strike

I'm not sure why anyone would write something so apparently derisive and mocking.

 

[Imdanny]

Just curious, Circe. Your parents escaped from an Iron Curtain country, yet you have (somewhat) leftist views. This makes me honestly curious because I have not run into this before. Everyone I know who personally escaped or even had parents escape from Iron Curtain countries are very very conservative. I tend to be socially conservative (more and more as I get older, as a young person I was quite 'radical'--I think now mostly because my friends and teachers were) but not as conservative as they are. Am I wrong in my impressions from the people I have met? ARe there many others like you (that you know)? Why do you have lefist (ish) views when your parents disliked the Iron Curtain enough to run away from it (quite a dangerous thing to do in the 1970's?

I promise not to take issue with anything you say or even discuss it--I am just sincerely very curious, if you would find it in your heart to answer me, even briefly, becuase it is so outside my experience.

Social conservatism in regard to issues related to the GLBT community is dying. For instance Gallop polls and others show acceptance of same-sex marriage increases as each age range is younger rather than older.

'It might be becoming more popular but this has nothing to do with whether it's right' is a common argument people make when given this information.

For the record this isn't my point. I'm not debating whether it's right or wrong. Nor am I debating whether or not each of us is entitled to our own opinion.

My point is that I think it's ironic that some people become more socially conservative as they get older even as society does the opposite.

I guess that a lot of people say they get more conservative as they get older but statistically this isn't true of the general population in regard to this particular topic and I'd image other social topics as well for instance acceptance of divorce.

Personally I believe as I implied above that history will be the judge of which direction was or wasn't in the right about these topics and that social conservatives are a dying breed.

 

[monarch64]

Those were the good old days, huh? "We shall overcome-uh-um; we shall overcome-uh-um; we shall overcome some day-a-a".

Your post reminded me of my interest in this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memphis_Sanitation_Strike

I'm not sure why anyone would write something so apparently derisive and mocking.

Just a hunch, but I think Holly's referring to the Joan Baez version.

 

[Dancing Fire]

i want to occupy the White House.

 

[HollyS]

Those were the good old days, huh? "We shall overcome-uh-um; we shall overcome-uh-um; we shall overcome some day-a-a".

Your post reminded me of my interest in this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memphis_Sanitation_Strike

I'm not sure why anyone would write something so apparently derisive and mocking.

Just a hunch, but I think Holly's referring to the Joan Baez version.

I am finding it increasingly difficult to convey wry, dry, and irreverently witty to some folks here.

Wit is finding the ridiculous in any situation. Mocking even the most revered ideas or institutions for their inherent silliness. Jon Stewart, anyone?

There is nothing touching, dramatic, poetic, or even admirable about stinky people with greasy hair and fuzzy teeth camping out for weeks on end in order to 'make a point'. No one is listening. TV talking heads are too busy blathering about how long the dirty folks have been there and what efforts are underway to get them to disperse. And then the second hour of TODAY will have Hoda and Kathie Lee conversing with a Kardashian - - because the 'protest' is so not having any effect on the world at large.

And, personally, I find it hilarious.

This isn't 1969, and no one is changing the way things are done. Been there, done that. This no longer shocks, inspires, or impresses. Unless, of course, the protest is a Tiananmen Square dealy-bob. Then, okay. Point taken. Otherwise, bwahahahaha !

 

[iheartscience]

Actually, people are listening, including the media. http://thinkprogress.org/special/20...a-jobs-wall-street-ignoring-deficit-hysteria/

The article includes 2 charts with a count of the news media's mention of the unemployed in July vs. a count of the news media's mention of the unemployed last week:

 

[HollyS]

Actually, people are listening, including the media. http://thinkprogress.org/special/20...a-jobs-wall-street-ignoring-deficit-hysteria/

The article includes 2 charts with a count of the news media's mention of the unemployed in July vs. a count of the news media's mention of the unemployed last week:

The media will give it coverage as long as it lasts because it gives them something to talk about. Air time is expensive, and they need something to blather on about. They are not helping to change the tide of thinking, the level of engagement, or the way things are done. You do know why, don't you? That's right. They work for the companies that protesters are protesting. Like GE.

Go ahead. Check out how many major corporations,( many involved in moving workers overseas, etc.), own the media outlets reporting on the protests.

Do you think you'll get accurate news coverage of these issues from these sources? Do you think change will be a result of their coverage?

Cynicism will replace your wide-eyed take on how the world operates. Some day.

 

[iheartscience]

Actually, people are listening, including the media. http://thinkprogress.org/special/20...a-jobs-wall-street-ignoring-deficit-hysteria/

The article includes 2 charts with a count of the news media's mention of the unemployed in July vs. a count of the news media's mention of the unemployed last week:

The media will give it coverage as long as it lasts because it gives them something to talk about. Air time is expensive, and they need something to blather on about. They are not helping to change the tide of thinking, the level of engagement, or the way things are done. You do know why, don't you? That's right. They work for the companies that protesters are protesting. Like GE.

Go ahead. Check out how many major corporations,( many involved in moving workers overseas, etc.), own the media outlets reporting on the protests.

Do you think you'll get accurate news coverage of these issues from these sources? Do you think change will be a result of their coverage?

Cynicism will replace your wide-eyed take on how the world operates. Some day.

You know, if I had a quarter for how often I'm told that my current wide-eyed naïveté will someday transform into hardened cynicism, I'd have $0.25 right now! Hahahaha thanks for the lolz!

 

[Imdanny]

Why shouldn't GE be protested? I don't know anything about their employees protesting them (that happens a lot, that's what a strike is, incidentally). They pay no taxes. While public education and some very important social programs are being gutted. So that these corporations currently sitting on trillions of dollars in cash and the rich with their egregiously disproportionate tax cuts that go on and on, no matter who is in office, no matter what Obama ran on, no matter what the American people want, and no matter what reputable economist say nor what makes common sense can live like pigs. There is a lot wrong with our economy, and it can't be fixed by pampering the corporations and people who have accumulated the money they have by gaming the system. But if I want to say anything about that in public, exercising actual principles of the US Constitution, I have dirty teeth. Huh? I can be very cynical myself sometimes, but I don't think anyone who is among the 25 million people who are unemployed nor the 50 million people without health insurance would find any of this very funny at all.

 

[Imdanny]

Actually, people are listening, including the media. http://thinkprogress.org/special/20...a-jobs-wall-street-ignoring-deficit-hysteria/

The article includes 2 charts with a count of the news media's mention of the unemployed in July vs. a count of the news media's mention of the unemployed last week:

Love it.

 

[HopeDream]

Here are some pictures I took on the first day at Occupy Vancouver; It had a real Canada Day/Earth Day festive feel.
No leaders + no agenda = not knowing when you're done.

 

[HopeDream]

More pictures

 

[HopeDream]

Vancouver loves a good protest.