*Occupy Wall Street*

[HopeDream]

And the Carnival Band!

Hope you enjoyed the photos.

 

[Circe]

Oh, those pics are AWESOME! I especially love the pair playing Twister, and the guy with the manticore-ish sociopath sign.

I'm re-reading Barbara Ehrenreich's Nickel and Dimed - I'd forgotten just how depressing the damned thing is, and what a bleak picture it paints of life at the subsistence level. What's worse, perhaps, is her introduction to the new edition (available here: http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175...reich,_on_americans_(not)_getting_by_(again)/), in which she points out that, while her book might have provided some nasty insights into how "the other half" lived, it's a cakewalk compared to how things are today. Ehrenreich conducted her experiment in living on a minimum-wage salary in a variety of professions in the boom-times of 1998 to 2000. These days? Well, after listing some of the ways in which people who were already at their wits ends have responded to increased poverty - overcrowding homes, attempting to qualify for TANF - she throws in this fun fact:

"No one could call suicide a “coping strategy,” but it is one way some people have responded to job loss and debt. There are no national statistics linking suicide to economic hard times, but the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline reported more than a four-fold increase in call volume between 2007 and 2009, and regions with particularly high unemployment, like Elkhart, Indiana, have seen troubling spikes in their suicide rates. Foreclosure is often the trigger for suicide -- or, worse, murder-suicides that destroy entire families."

Oy.

Oh, and, Holly ... while I'm also not entirely on-board with the whole OWS movement, the idea of outlawing public protests kind of rubs me the wrong way, just because it has some unpleasant echoes of the ways in which the disenfranchised have historically been further disenfranchised, on everything from people of color being forbidden to gather in groups of more than four during the 19th c. in the South to another thing Ehrenreich mentions: the criminalization of the poor;

"Most cities, for example, have ordinances designed to drive the destitute off the streets by outlawing such necessary activities of daily life as sitting, loitering, sleeping, or lying down. Urban officials boast that there is nothing discriminatory about such laws: “If you’re lying on a sidewalk, whether you’re homeless or a millionaire, you’re in violation of the ordinance,” a St. Petersburg, Florida, city attorney stated in June 2009, echoing Anatole France’s immortal observation that “the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges...”

So, yeah. While I still want to see a little more ... focus ... from this protest movement, I'm suddenly a lot more empathetic to its driving forces ....

 

[Imdanny]

I for one did! Canada is subjected to this same carp with its conservative government even though its banking system emerged more unscathed than ours in the US. Canada has so much to be proud of and a lot is at stake with these corporate and social forces vigorously attempting to ruin it for the majority. Thanks!

 

[HollyS]

Thank you, Hope Dream, for putting the cherry on my view of this. Your photos tell the real story.

It's an excuse for a walk down memory lane for many, and a reason to party for others. I believe my point has been made.

 

[partgypsy]

I think I am sympathetic with what (I think) they are trying to express, that the average person is not heard in the boardroom or the halls of government, where somewhere along the way there has been a shift of power away from citizens to corporations. The idea that the working, middle class don't hold much sway in the decisionmaking, so the impetus to show that these concerns resonate with a significant "constituency".
It also provides a palate cleanser to all the tea party rallies.

But, I don't know if I'm too busy trying to keep on top of my normal life, or cynicism, where yeah people paying twister is not going to change how our politicians vote. Instead of spending airfare getting to NYC I think a better idea is to chip in their money and hire a lobbyist.

 

[Pandora II]

It's not being reported in the media here - we have our own version by St Pauls in London and most people are rolling their eyes at it.

It's a total PITA for people who work there, small businesses in the area and the police. I went past the other day and the only people taking photos were tourists. It hasn't even been on the TV news that I have noticed.

Not only that but it seems that here it's an endless cycle of G8, Climate Change, Iraq War, Student Fees etc etc etc which largely feature the same people - who sit there doing sweet FA while other people go to work and pay their taxes so this lot can claim their welfare cheques.

The only protests that get taken seriously are those that get the average man in the street out.

Until 20 months ago, most of my waking hours were taken up with polticial activism - in May 2010 I stood down at the elections and frankly I find nothing to get excited about politically right now.

 

[AGBF]

I saw in the news this morning that folk singer Pete Seeger (age 92) had walked 30 blocks on two canes with the Occupy Wall Street movement yesterday and joined some other musicians playing and singing afterwards. The crowd also sang, "We Shall Overcome", made famous during the protest movement of the 1960's by Woody Guthrie, whose son, Arlo Guthrie, was there.

YouTube has some footage of the event, but it isn't too exciting. I liked this compilation of photos someone put together to an old Phil Ochs song better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPHP0xZDlnI

Deb/AGBF

 

[LJL]

The list of "demands" is here- though I guess its questionable because everyone wants different things, unrest in different cities is different, etc.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2011/oct/3/picket-occupy-wall-street-protesters-post-manifest/

I think the things that bother me the most are - free college education, forgiveness of all debt period, no credit reporting agencies.. etc. I'm not a big fan of most of it, but I feel similar to danny in that I just dont really care. I have other things to do - like look at diamonds while I procrastinate doing my schoolwork. I don't think the movement is going anywhere and the comparisons to the civil rights movement bother me.

 

[Skippy123]

I just saw this on someones FB wall on myths about Occupy Wall Street. I don't have a side yet; I haven't had time to read more on it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/keith-boykin/occupy-wall-street-media_b_1019707.html?ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false

 

[Dancing Fire]

I think the things that bother me the most are - free college education, forgiveness of all debt period, no credit reporting agencies.. etc. I'm not a big fan of most of it, but I feel similar to danny in that I just dont really care. I have other things to do - like look at diamonds while I procrastinate doing my schoolwork. I don't think the movement is going anywhere and the comparisons to the civil rights movement bother me.

yeah,i want FREE diamonds and FORGIVENESS from my stock broker...these people are..

 

[mrs jam]

We saw a relatively small group of protesters taking part in Austin's version of Occupy Wall Street. Based on what I saw, I think they could take some time off for a shower break. And for God's sake, put on a shirt! Oh, the moobies I saw!!

 

[Sha]

On a lighter note...

!!!

 

[monarch64]

The list of "demands" is here- though I guess its questionable because everyone wants different things, unrest in different cities is different, etc.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2011/oct/3/picket-occupy-wall-street-protesters-post-manifest/

I think the things that bother me the most are - free college education, forgiveness of all debt period, no credit reporting agencies.. etc. I'm not a big fan of most of it, but I feel similar to danny in that I just dont really care. I have other things to do - like look at diamonds while I procrastinate doing my schoolwork. I don't think the movement is going anywhere and the comparisons to the civil rights movement bother me.

That sort of list is what you get when you have slackers sitting around making up wish lists when they're stoned. This type of crap should DEFINITELY NOT be compared to the civil rights movement. Or any other SERIOUS movement! These are a bunch of entitled a$$holes who are pissed off because things aren't going the way mommy and daddy told them.

A 23 year old was fired from the company I work for two weeks ago. He wanted to give his girlfriend, who doesn't work there, a discount. He was told "no." He rang her up anyway, and not only gave her a Boy Scout discount (obviously she's not a Boy Scout), he also made the sale tax exempt. FIRED. And guess what? He had the audacity to have his girlfriend call the store manager the next day, and then she came in the store and tried to discuss the matter with him. As if she could somehow talk him out of getting fired for breaking the law and essentially stealing from the company. He honestly thought he hadn't done anything wrong. This is the kind of bullshit entitlement I see all the time today. I'm only 10 years older than these kids, but I never saw crap like from my peers. So. Over. It.

 

[iheartscience]

That article has been updated with the actual list of demands. The previous list was taken from somewhere other than the Occupy Wall Street site. The demands are completely reasonable, and it's fascinating to me that people have such a problem with it, or the Occupy Wall Street protests in general. Here's the link to the actual Occupy Wall Street site: http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/

Although I would imagine most people posting on a diamond forum have well-paying jobs (myself included), I do know many people who have been affected by this recession. And I personally had to leave a job I loved in 2009 due to my hours being cut because of the recession, but I left with another full time job lined up. From what I've read there are PSers affected by the recession as well. HollyS-you recently lost your job, right? But you still insist on looking down on the "hippies" who are protesting the very issues that presumably contributed to you losing your job? Like I said-fascinating! I guess everybody has to look down on somebody.

The fact that Congress will vote to bail out banks, but that Republicans are now blocking even debate on bills intended to create jobs and bail out ordinary Americans is just disgusting. What if you were one of the 14 MILLION Americans without a job? Can you even imagine having no way to make money? And then having your unemployment benefits run out and Congress refuses to extend them? It's hard to even imagine, particularly if you come from a well-off family who will support you in the case of an emergency (which I do). But millions of Americans are living that right now, and have been for the last several years, while corporations are posting RECORD profits, but aren't hiring due to a lack of demand, because, you know-no one has jobs so they can't buy stuff.

And don't get me started on the fact that according to Fox News and Republican politicians, the "Tea Party" protesters are patriotic, but Occupy Wall Street protesters are angry mobs dividing this country.

I'm not the type to Occupy Wall Street or anywhere-honestly I'd rather make donations than get my hands dirty. But I completely respect the people who are willing to get their hands dirty to draw attention to the plight of millions of Americans.

 

[iheartscience]

And in case anyone is interested in the list of demands, an abbreviated version, found here http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/:

1. CONGRESS PASS HR 1489 ("RETURN TO PRUDENT BANKING ACT" http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h112-1489 ). THIS REINSTATES MANY PROVISIONS OF THE GLASS-STEAGALL ACT. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass–Steagall_Act

2. USE CONGRESSIONAL AUTHORITY AND OVERSIGHT TO ENSURE APPROPRIATE FEDERAL AGENCIES FULLY INVESTIGATE AND PROSECUTE THE WALL STREET CRIMINALS

3. CONGRESS ENACT LEGISLATION TO PROTECT OUR DEMOCRACY BY REVERSING THE EFFECTS OF THE CITIZENS UNITED SUPREME COURT DECISION

4. CONGRESS PASS THE BUFFETT RULE ON FAIR TAXATION SO THE RICH AND CORPORATIONS PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE & CLOSE CORPORATE TAX LOOP HOLES AND ENACT A PROHIBITION ON HIDING FUNDS OFF SHORE.

5. CONGRESS COMPLETELY REVAMP THE SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION.

6. CONGRESS PASS SPECIFIC AND EFFECTIVE LAWS LIMITING THE INFLUENCE OF LOBBYISTS AND ELIMINATING THE PRACTICE OF LOBBYISTS WRITING LEGISLATION THAT ENDS UP ON THE FLOOR OF CONGRESS.

7. CONGRESS PASSING "Revolving Door Legislation" LEGISLATION ELIMINATING THE ABILITY OF FORMER GOVERNMENT REGULATORS GOING TO WORK FOR CORPORATIONS THAT THEY ONCE REGULATED.

8. ELIMINATE "PERSONHOOD" LEGAL STATUS FOR CORPORATIONS.

 

[vc10um]

Not shockingly, I'm with thing2. To me, the Occupy Wall Street movement is about bringing attention to a group of people who felt entitled (there's that damn word again!) to take millions of dollars in bonuses while the businesses they ran were failing so bad they had to be kept afloat by billions of tax dollars. And I think that's a PERFECTLY good reason to protest! Why should the CEO of a bank that failed get rewarded? ESPECIALLY with my tax dollars?!?

I think the list of demands makes perfect sense. Corporations are NOT people and as such, should not be permitted to fund political campaigns and should be REQUIRED to PAY THEIR TAXES.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[packrat]

I don't know much about it. I don't have any degrees, I don't read financial papers and I don't know a lot of big words. What *I* see, what *I* experience, is nothing I do will ever be good enough. We'll have to work more and more, longer hours to have anything nice, (and my definition of nice is waaay less than most peoples) to do anything for ourselves and *still* fork over higher taxes to "help" people who have more money than we'll ever dream of, or could ever possibly understand in our minds. Lots of zero's? I can't comprehend that. If you have millions and millions, and I have like..tens and tens..why am I helping you? Can't be b/c you're stupid b/c you're the one w/all the money and I'm the one w/nothing, and you can STILL make that out to be seen as unfair to you. You're fricken brilliant, actually.

One percent of MY income is a whooooole lot harder to lose than one percent of YOURS, and see, I'm trying to feed my kids. Something other than chicken nuggets and macaroni and cheese and one glass of milk a day b/c milk is so expensive, you can drink water the rest of the day. Someone who lives in a multi million dollar home, with a 10 car garage that houses 10 cars that are each worth more than my family makes in a year, I really don't think they need to SNEER at me b/c I spent my hard earned money on a damn dish washer-b/c they see it as a luxury. Yep, we've got a big tv. You know what? THAT'S ALL WE HAVE. I've not been on vacation since 2003. We have no money in savings, very little in retirement. And we spent $3000 on a tv. And we're begrudged THAT???? One simple itty bitty thing to make our hum drum boring as hell lives FUN, and that's an issue?? I didn't squander billions of dollars in my ineptitude and then turn around and cry about it and expect people who have nothing to pay for it. I fully intend on paying MY bills-just fricken sucks I have to pay the bills for bazillionaires too.

Here's what we experience w/the corporation-BILLION DOLLAR CORPORATION-my husband works for. How about a memo about the annual Christmas bonus that USED to be a whopping $250 certificate to use in town, plus a ham. NOW, we get 4 five dollar off coupons for the product they make. Even five dollars off the stuff is expensive, so we don't use them, normally, except one grocer in town lets us use it on HAMBURGER. The higher ups/big wigs/muckey mucks got millions of dollars for THEIR Christmas bonus, vacations, flying on private jets, stock options etc etc...and we got hamburger, and that was out of the goodness of a grocers heart. Otherwise, we'd have gotten nothing. The little guy gets hamburger and the big guy feels high and mighty about it. And most of the time, what are the higher ups/big wigs/muckey mucks doing in their jobs? Are they working over time every chance they can to make the house payment? Missing their kids activities b/c they're stuck working? Are they working 10 hours straight w/only pee breaks and a chance to sneak in and shovel food in their faces? Doubtful.

Us peons don't ask for much. Treat us like decent human beings. Is it really that hard? And take that smarmy sneer off your face and quit acting so damned magnanimous about it. Ohhh thank you so much bless you bless you kind sir, this gift of hamburger will do much in sending my kids to college. Your kids and grandkids and great great great great great grandkids will never have to worry about money ever in their entire lives and live like prices and princess, and we'll save $20 and be able to take our kids to the Sunday matinee-but we'll still have to smuggle in our own treats.

 

[KimberlyH]

My thoughts: We were financially sound and responsible but the week of October 6, 2008 changed all of that. We are still in a better position than many, but our lifestyle has changed drastically. My husband is a small business owner and he has had to divest all of our holdings, including our own home (we sold at a huge loss and bought a new house worth less then half the old one) and start fresh. As I said, we're lucky -- but to attribute it to luck alone isn't fair, my husband has worked his tail off to keep us going -- we still own a home, manage to save for our daughter's college fund, our own retirement and have some fun. But we've also cut out a lot: no babysitters, no dinners out, no splurging for the hell of it, etc. If we hadn't been so financially sound pre-2008 I can't fathom where we'd be now. Many of our friends have been affected as well. One of them lost everything but his car and is now managing a restaurant instead of working in real estate.

No one I know who has been affected by the economy has joined the OWS cause. Not because they don't wish things were different, but because they're busy looking for jobs, working, taking care of their families. I don't begrudge anyone making however much money they possibly can -- this is an interesting piece on the subject http://www.forbes.com/sites/objectivist/2011/06/14/when-it-comes-to-wealth-creation-there-is-no-pie/#more-78,, and I'm not a libertarian. The destruction of industry, building, making things in this country will likely eventually be our downfall. Moving money around does not a sound economy make. I find the pomp and circumstance around this cause as frustrating as I did the tea party when they were making so much noise. Repulicrats, Democrans, it's all the same to me. Unfortunately and until someone in power turns our country back into one that produces things and promotes the success of small businesses I'm not sure we can turn things around. And people blocking businesses, the cornerstone of our economy, from operating certainly isn't going to fix things.

 

[iheartscience]

My thoughts: We were financially sound and responsible but the week of October 6, 2008 changed all of that. We are still in a better position than many, but our lifestyle has changed drastically. My husband is a small business owner and he has had to divest all of our holdings, including our own home (we sold at a huge loss and bought a new house worth less then half the old one) and start fresh. As I said, we're lucky -- but to attribute it to luck alone isn't fair, my husband has worked his tail off to keep us going -- we still own a home, manage to save for our daughter's college fund, our own retirement and have some fun. But we've also cut out a lot: no babysitters, no dinners out, no splurging for the hell of it, etc. If we hadn't been so financially sound pre-2008 I can't fathom where we'd be now. Many of our friends have been affected as well. One of them lost everything but his car and is now managing a restaurant instead of working in real estate.

No one I know who has been affected by the economy has joined the OWS cause. Not because they don't wish things were different, but because they're busy looking for jobs, working, taking care of their families. I don't begrudge anyone making however much money they possibly can -- this is an interesting piece on the subject http://www.forbes.com/sites/objectivist/2011/06/14/when-it-comes-to-wealth-creation-there-is-no-pie/#more-78,,, and I'm not a libertarian. The destruction of industry, building, making things in this country will likely eventually be our downfall. Moving money around does not a sound economy make. I find the pomp and circumstance around this cause as frustrating as I did the tea party when they were making so much noise. Repulicrats, Democrans, it's all the same to me. Unfortunately and until someone in power turns our country back into one that produces things and promotes the success of small businesses I'm not sure we can turn things around. And people blocking businesses, the cornerstone of our economy, from operating certainly isn't going to fix things.

I'm not sure what you're referring to with the bolded. Occupy Wall Street isn't actually blocking Wall Street or preventing businesses from operating.

I also don't begrudge people making money-my husband and I make plenty, which I like to spend! However, I do begrudge huge corporations (some of which were bailed out with taxpayer dollars after DESTROYING the economy) laying off workers while posting record profits and paying next to nothing or actually nothing in taxes.

I completely agree with you that small to medium sized businesses should receive MORE support than huge corporations, not less.

 

[swimmer]

Just curious, Circe. Your parents escaped from an Iron Curtain country, yet you have (somewhat) leftist views. This makes me honestly curious because I have not run into this before. Everyone I know who personally escaped or even had parents escape from Iron Curtain countries are very very conservative. I tend to be socially conservative (more and more as I get older, as a young person I was quite 'radical'--I think now mostly because my friends and teachers were) but not as conservative as they are. Am I wrong in my impressions from the people I have met? ARe there many others like you (that you know)? Why do you have lefist (ish) views when your parents disliked the Iron Curtain enough to run away from it (quite a dangerous thing to do in the 1970's?

I promise not to take issue with anything you say or even discuss it--I am just sincerely very curious, if you would find it in your heart to answer me, even briefly, becuase it is so outside my experience.

This really interests me, Black Jade my mom escaped in the 70s from Yugoslavia. I think Mom is a leftist because she knows the difference between socialism and totalitarianism. Then again, she also married a kibbutznik. My experience with the children of former bloc inhabitants is that we grew up to be pretty liberal politically and very socially liberal, but our parents sent us to small liberal arts colleges and raised us Jewish so we didn't have much choice really. Then again, my sample size is only about 18 people. I'm not surprised that many parents who escaped are conservative, but that their children followed so closely in lockstep, in your experience, is surprising.

 

[HollyS]

I saw in the news this morning that folk singer Pete Seeger (age 92) had walked 30 blocks on two canes with the Occupy Wall Street movement yesterday and joined some other musicians playing and singing afterwards. The crowd also sang, "We Shall Overcome", made famous during the protest movement of the 1960's by Woody Guthrie, whose son, Arlo Guthrie, was there.YouTube has some footage of the event, but it isn't too exciting. I liked this compilation of photos someone put together to an old Phil Ochs song better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPHP0xZDlnI

Deb/AGBF

Gee, what a surprise. Like I didn't call that one. They did exactly what I told you they wanted to do. But hey, I'm just a cynic.

 

[KimberlyH]

Thing, what I meant was that the protests are taking place in front of businesses other than big banks/corporations (I am picturing all of the tailors, restaurants, etc. in downtown Manhattan) and this would impede their businesses. They're also likely making it more difficult for people other than those running corporations (security guards, secretaries, etc.) to get to and from work and I simply don't see how that helps their cause in any way.

As for corporations, they aren't purveyors of evil in my mind. Some are well run, others are not, but just being an employee at a large corporation doesn't mean a person is immoral. There's greed and lack of ethics all over, along with honest people who work hard and do their best. I don't agree with those banks choosing to lay off so many employees, it's a sickening thought actually, but I don't begrudge them their record profits. And while I'm sure it could have been handled better, but am bot savvy enough to know how, I do think the gov't had to intervene with the banks, the fallout if they hadn't is inconcievable.

 

[KimberlyH]

Thing, what I meant was that the protests are taking place in front of businesses other than big banks/corporations (I am picturing all of the tailors, restaurants, etc. in downtown Manhattan) and this would impede their businesses. They're also likely making it more difficult for people other than those running corporations (security guards, secretaries, etc.) to get to and from work and I simply don't see how that helps their cause in any way.

As for corporations, they aren't purveyors of evil in my mind. Some are well run, others are not, but just being an employee at a large corporation doesn't mean a person is immoral. There's greed and lack of ethics all over, along with honest people who work hard and do their best. I don't agree with those banks choosing to lay off so many employees, it's a sickening thought actually, but I don't begrudge them their record profits. And while I'm sure it could have been handled better, but am bot savvy enough to know how, I do think the gov't had to intervene with the banks, the fallout if they hadn't is inconcievable.

 

[AGBF]

I saw in the news this morning that folk singer Pete Seeger (age 92) had walked 30 blocks on two canes with the Occupy Wall Street movement yesterday and joined some other musicians playing and singing afterwards. The crowd also sang, "We Shall Overcome", made famous during the protest movement of the 1960's by Woody Guthrie, whose son, Arlo Guthrie, was there.YouTube has some footage of the event, but it isn't too exciting. I liked this compilation of photos someone put together to an old Phil Ochs song better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPHP0xZDlnI

Gee, what a surprise. Like I didn't call that one. They did exactly what I told you they wanted to do. But hey, I'm just a cynic.

You're not a cynic, Holly. You're just right wing. Some of us are moved by, "We Shall Overcome". Some of us participated in the protests of the 1960's for civil rights, equality for women, and to end American involvement in the war in Vietnam. Some of us believed in non-violent protest and revered the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther Luther King, Jr.. Songs like, "We Shall Overcome" remind us of that era when we and our brethren cared about others in society, when even the president (LBJ) wanted a "Great Society" without poverty, rather than dropping all the social nets that once protected the poor.

Now tell me, why would your knowledge that , "We Shall Overcome" is meaningful to us put you in a position to sneer? I know that, "The Star Spangled Banner" is played before baseball games, but I don't go around sneering and saying, "Ha! I told you so! I called it!" every time it is played!

Deb/AGBF

 

[Dancing Fire]

The fact that Congress will vote to bail out banks, but that Republicans are now blocking even debate on bills intended to create jobs and bail out ordinary Americans is just disgusting. What if you were one of the 14 MILLION Americans without a job? Can you even imagine having no way to make money? And then having your unemployment benefits run out and Congress refuses to extend them? It's hard to even imagine, particularly if you come from a well-off family who will support you in the case of an emergency (which I do). But millions of Americans are living that right now, and have been for the last several years, while corporations are posting RECORD profits, but aren't hiring due to a lack of demand, because, you know-no one has jobs so they can't buy stuff.

why should i work??? ... when i'm receiving a "entitlement check" every month... and if our government continue to print up more money then who do you think will end up paying the bills?? my daughters!

thank god that we'll have a new President by 2013...

 

[Dancing Fire]

I saw in the news this morning that folk singer Pete Seeger (age 92) had walked 30 blocks on two canes with the Occupy Wall Street movement yesterday and joined some other musicians playing and singing afterwards. The crowd also sang, "We Shall Overcome", made famous during the protest movement of the 1960's by Woody Guthrie, whose son, Arlo Guthrie, was there.YouTube has some footage of the event, but it isn't too exciting. I liked this compilation of photos someone put together to an old Phil Ochs song better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPHP0xZDlnI

Gee, what a surprise. Like I didn't call that one. They did exactly what I told you they wanted to do. But hey, I'm just a cynic.

You're not a cynic, Holly. You're just right wing. Some of us are moved by, "We Shall Overcome". Some of us participated in the protests of the 1960's for civil rights, equality for women, and to end American involvement in the war in Vietnam. Some of us believed in non-violent protest and revered the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther Luther King, Jr.. Songs like, "We Shall Overcome" remind us of that era when we and our brethren cared about others in society, when even the president (LBJ) wanted a "Great Society" without poverty, rather than dropping all the social nets that once protected the poor.

Now tell me, why would your knowledge that , "We Shall Overcome" is meaningful to us put you in a position to sneer? I know that, "The Star Spangled Banner" is played before baseball games, but I don't go around sneering and saying, "Ha! I told you so! I called it!" every time it is played!

Deb/AGBF

Holly a right winger??...

 

[ksinger]

Thing, what I meant was that the protests are taking place in front of businesses other than big banks/corporations (I am picturing all of the tailors, restaurants, etc. in downtown Manhattan) and this would impede their businesses. They're also likely making it more difficult for people other than those running corporations (security guards, secretaries, etc.) to get to and from work and I simply don't see how that helps their cause in any way.

As for corporations, they aren't purveyors of evil in my mind. Some are well run, others are not, but just being an employee at a large corporation doesn't mean a person is immoral. There's greed and lack of ethics all over, along with honest people who work hard and do their best. I don't agree with those banks choosing to lay off so many employees, it's a sickening thought actually, but I don't begrudge them their record profits. And while I'm sure it could have been handled better, but am bot savvy enough to know how, I do think the gov't had to intervene with the banks, the fallout if they hadn't is inconcievable.

First highlight: in a country where I'm increasingly deemed immoral if I use the wrong household cleaner or toilet paper, and where I'm expected to research ad nauseum the investments I make so that they're green and don't support terrorism or child labor in third world countries, when it comes to something as basic as who I work for - the entity that my labor enables to operate - I can't be held responsible for the deeds of the corporation that employs me? I actually agree with you about honest people, but I'm making the point that a)in some lights, yes we CAN be held at least somewhat responsible, and b)most of us are not in a position to tell potential employers, "Oh, I've checked you out, and YOU fail my ethics test, so I don't want that job." Sound a bit unrealistic? Yeah. Highlights who is holding the cards in the equation, and it ain't the individual is it?

Second highlight: Pretty ironic, since most increases in productivity since the industrial revolution began, and especially in recent times, have not been because people worked SO much harder, but because fewer people were needed to do the work, which can be read as - hey, you want to increase productivity (ie - profit), lay people off. As for corporations being or not being purveyors of evil, well, if you want to go all "intent of the founders" on the topic, (which I generally don't do, and only do here to make a point), not only did they not see corporations as good for anything other than a short-term entity formed for large PUBLIC works and then to be dissolved, they certainly did not intend for corporations - a LEGAL CONSTRUCT that exists only as a creation of humans - to be accorded the same rights as a living, breathing human. But they are, and they are immortal to boot. And they are perfect for amoral people to hide behind. So purveyor of evil? Why not?

I absolutely DO begrudge them the record profits, made as they were on the backs of the American taxpayer, who will be paying the price both monetary and in human misery and social instability. The right wants to dismiss this movement as just a bunch of spoiled college kids, but it isn't. And even if it was "just" college kids, please remember who drove/is driving the Arab Spring - the unemployed EDUCATED classes, NOT the poorest of the poor. IMO, It is the beginning of that social unrest, and if the economy continues to decline, and the social compact continues to erode, we will see more of the protests, and increasing violence. At our house we've been expecting/predicting this for a while, but are a bit surprised it has begun so soon. I guess everything is sped up in the internet age.

And yes, as odious as it was, I agree that the banks needed to be bailed out. However, the fact that the bailout money was given WITHOUT ANY STRINGS ATTACHED, is a constant source of disgust to me. My husband was reading an interview with one of the executives who took the bailouts (don't recall which financial institution, but one of the ones that received the first round of bailouts) and HE was marveling at how the money was practically shoved at them. He said he kept waiting for the conditions to come, and indicated they would have accepted them, but they never did. Basically, he hid his amazement, shrugged, and took the money. Hey, what a deal.

 

[HollyS]

I saw in the news this morning that folk singer Pete Seeger (age 92) had walked 30 blocks on two canes with the Occupy Wall Street movement yesterday and joined some other musicians playing and singing afterwards. The crowd also sang, "We Shall Overcome", made famous during the protest movement of the 1960's by Woody Guthrie, whose son, Arlo Guthrie, was there.YouTube has some footage of the event, but it isn't too exciting. I liked this compilation of photos someone put together to an old Phil Ochs song better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPHP0xZDlnI

Gee, what a surprise. Like I didn't call that one. They did exactly what I told you they wanted to do. But hey, I'm just a cynic.

You're not a cynic, Holly. You're just right wing. Some of us are moved by, "We Shall Overcome". Some of us participated in the protests of the 1960's for civil rights, equality for women, and to end American involvement in the war in Vietnam. Some of us believed in non-violent protest and revered the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther Luther King, Jr.. Songs like, "We Shall Overcome" remind us of that era when we and our brethren cared about others in society, when even the president (LBJ) wanted a "Great Society" without poverty, rather than dropping all the social nets that once protected the poor.

Now tell me, why would your knowledge that , "We Shall Overcome" is meaningful to us put you in a position to sneer? I know that, "The Star Spangled Banner" is played before baseball games, but I don't go around sneering and saying, "Ha! I told you so! I called it!" every time it is played!

Deb/AGBF

Deb, I was around for the 60s and 70s, too; and frankly, you aren't much older than I am. I fully remember Vietnam (my husband had to register for the draft at 1, the civil rights movement, the deaths of MLK and RFK, Kent State, the Chicago Seven, the SDS, and the Weathermen. I grew up in a Midwestern university town where we had our own marches on Main Street against the war. Had I been a college student in 1970, I would probably have been out on the quad with them. But, as in everything, there were idiots in those days too. Like Abbie Hoffman trying to levitate the Pentagon, for instance. Not the yippie-hippies' finest hour.

I don't object to protests. I object to these people and their desires/demands - - for many of the same reasons a variety of other PSers have already stated.

As for the song, I stated that the ex-flower children protesters would be nostalgic for 'their song'. Seems I was right. I find it funny and sad. Since it was so evocative of an era, I'd rather it wasn't trotted out everytime someone totes a placard in protest of something; it's just so trite. As is the nostalgia for events of yesteryear that many of us merely observed from afar.

 

[swimmer]

I don't know much about it. I don't have any degrees, I don't read financial papers and I don't know a lot of big words. What *I* see, what *I* experience, is nothing I do will ever be good enough. We'll have to work more and more, longer hours to have anything nice, (and my definition of nice is waaay less than most peoples) to do anything for ourselves and *still* fork over higher taxes to "help" people who have more money than we'll ever dream of, or could ever possibly understand in our minds. Lots of zero's? I can't comprehend that. If you have millions and millions, and I have like..tens and tens..why am I helping you? Can't be b/c you're stupid b/c you're the one w/all the money and I'm the one w/nothing, and you can STILL make that out to be seen as unfair to you. You're fricken brilliant, actually.

One percent of MY income is a whooooole lot harder to lose than one percent of YOURS, and see, I'm trying to feed my kids. Something other than chicken nuggets and macaroni and cheese and one glass of milk a day b/c milk is so expensive, you can drink water the rest of the day. Someone who lives in a multi million dollar home, with a 10 car garage that houses 10 cars that are each worth more than my family makes in a year, I really don't think they need to SNEER at me b/c I spent my hard earned money on a damn dish washer-b/c they see it as a luxury. Yep, we've got a big tv. You know what? THAT'S ALL WE HAVE. I've not been on vacation since 2003. We have no money in savings, very little in retirement. And we spent $3000 on a tv. And we're begrudged THAT???? One simple itty bitty thing to make our hum drum boring as hell lives FUN, and that's an issue?? I didn't squander billions of dollars in my ineptitude and then turn around and cry about it and expect people who have nothing to pay for it. I fully intend on paying MY bills-just fricken sucks I have to pay the bills for bazillionaires too.

Here's what we experience w/the corporation-BILLION DOLLAR CORPORATION-my husband works for. How about a memo about the annual Christmas bonus that USED to be a whopping $250 certificate to use in town, plus a ham. NOW, we get 4 five dollar off coupons for the product they make. Even five dollars off the stuff is expensive, so we don't use them, normally, except one grocer in town lets us use it on HAMBURGER. The higher ups/big wigs/muckey mucks got millions of dollars for THEIR Christmas bonus, vacations, flying on private jets, stock options etc etc...and we got hamburger, and that was out of the goodness of a grocers heart. Otherwise, we'd have gotten nothing. The little guy gets hamburger and the big guy feels high and mighty about it. And most of the time, what are the higher ups/big wigs/muckey mucks doing in their jobs? Are they working over time every chance they can to make the house payment? Missing their kids activities b/c they're stuck working? Are they working 10 hours straight w/only pee breaks and a chance to sneak in and shovel food in their faces? Doubtful.

Us peons don't ask for much. Treat us like decent human beings. Is it really that hard? And take that smarmy sneer off your face and quit acting so damned magnanimous about it. Ohhh thank you so much bless you bless you kind sir, this gift of hamburger will do much in sending my kids to college. Your kids and grandkids and great great great great great grandkids will never have to worry about money ever in their entire lives and live like prices and princess, and we'll save $20 and be able to take our kids to the Sunday matinee-but we'll still have to smuggle in our own treats.

Packrat, your statement here is very powerful. I think you really captured the frustration that fuels the "we are the 99%" movement.

 

[y2kitty]

Thing, what I meant was that the protests are taking place in front of businesses other than big banks/corporations (I am picturing all of the tailors, restaurants, etc. in downtown Manhattan) and this would impede their businesses. They're also likely making it more difficult for people other than those running corporations (security guards, secretaries, etc.) to get to and from work and I simply don't see how that helps their cause in any way.

As for corporations, they aren't purveyors of evil in my mind. Some are well run, others are not, but just being an employee at a large corporation doesn't mean a person is immoral. There's greed and lack of ethics all over, along with honest people who work hard and do their best. I don't agree with those banks choosing to lay off so many employees, it's a sickening thought actually, but I don't begrudge them their record profits. And while I'm sure it could have been handled better, but am bot savvy enough to know how, I do think the gov't had to intervene with the banks, the fallout if they hadn't is inconcievable.

Have you done any research into this statement?
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/...zeria_making_big_dough_9j5G8H1kVQMCQgrPPL7rWO

"On a bad Monday before the protest, the shop sold as few as 35 large pizzas at $21 a pop for a total of $735. Now, even though Libertos has cut his pie price to $15, he rakes in about $3,525 on a good Monday, thanks to the up to 200 extra pies sold daily to the renegade hordes."