shape
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Narrowed down to 2 OECs! Which one should I pick?

PumpkinsAreAwesome

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This week has been rather rough since I got some somewhat bad news regarding my health. As a result, my diamond search has gone from stressful to a welcomed distraction! Funny how things work out that way.

Anyway, Adam from OWD send me an e-mail and video of a promising diamond with the size, fluorescence, color, and price I'm looking for. I'm still considering a 2nd diamond, but wanted to run this by all of you!

Diamond #1:

CARAT WEIGHT: 1.22
COLOR: J
CLARITY: SI2 (eyeclean according to Adam)
MEASURE: 6.97-6.83x4.12
DEPTH: 60.3
TABLE: 48
POLISH: Good
SYMMETRY: Good
GIRDLE: Very Thin to Medium
FLUORESCENCE: Medium
CULET: Small
EGL: When I asked for the EGL he sent me an e-mail with the diamond specs so I don't have a copy of it.
Price: $4028
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=832_kfX4_vI&feature=youtu.be


Diamond #2:
CARAT WEIGHT: 1.48
COLOR: L
CLARITY: SI2 (Adam says it's eyeclean, but there's a somewhat obvious inclusion in the crown)
MEASURE: 7.08*7.26*4.55
DEPTH: 63.5
TABLE: 46
POLISH: Good
SYMMETRY: Fair
GIRDLE: Very Thin to Slightly Thick (Adam said that there are absolutely no concerns regarding the girdle)
FLUORESCENCE: Faint
CULET: Large
GIA report: https://www.pricescope.com/forum/download/file.php?id=447235
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxGZwwTGm_w&feature=youtu.be
-Note that this diamond looks whiter and more sparkly than Diamond #1. However, this video also uses yellow spotlighting, which the video of Diamond #1 doesn't.
Price: $4,900
Picture: a45638.jpg

At this point, I am leaning towards Diamond number 1 because of the price, color, and fluorescence. I'm guessing that .2mm isn't THAT huge of a size difference. However, Diamond #2 has been described to me as a "fireball", and I'm guessing the faint fluorescence will help with the color. According to Adam, Diamond #1 has a "nice performance".

Thank you for your help!

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JulieN

Super_Ideal_Rock
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The first one looks very dark. If Adam says it's dark, its dark. But I think they both look dark. I would keep searching.
 

solgen

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If forced to choose between those two then I would opt for #2. #1 seems to have a haze to it and thus diminishing transparency.
 

Veltiesmom

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You should send for both and see them in person. There is no good way to judge an OEC remotely.

If that is absolutely not possible, explain to Adam the exact attributes you are looking for and ask him which is the better choice. His eye will be a lot more reliable than using a video to make the decision.

Recognizing again the limitations with deciding based on photo/video, #2 looks nicer to me.

Sorry to hear about your health issues. Hope all is OK.
 

SunnyDelta

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I'm leaning towards #1, but the clarity doesn't appear as good as diamond #2. Ask Adam for a direct head-on picture of diamond #1? I'm thinking the symmetry of diamond #1 is better, but hard to tell from the angled picture and video.

Diamond #2 crown looks too shallow and pavilion relatively too deep.

If these are your final two, have them shipped to see them in person because the proportions of #2 seem a little wonky, but if Adam says its a performer than its worth taking a look :)
 

PumpkinsAreAwesome

Shiny_Rock
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SunnyDelta|1445452173|3940724 said:
I'm leaning towards #1, but the clarity doesn't appear as good as diamond #2. Ask Adam for a direct head-on picture of diamond #1? I'm thinking the symmetry of diamond #1 is better, but hard to tell from the angled picture and video.

Diamond #2 crown looks too shallow and pavilion relatively too deep.

If these are your final two, have them shipped to see them in person because the proportions of #2 seem a little wonky, but if Adam says its a performer than its worth taking a look :)

Unrelated question: I am thinking of just looking at them both in person and picking one. However, what would the costs be like to send the one I don't like back via insured mail?
 

SunnyDelta

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I would think Adam would handle that (provide a shipping label, insurance, etc.).
I would ask him about the cost :)

Post more pics when you finally have them!
 

Veltiesmom

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Insurance varies based on the cost of the item obviously - but I am guessing one way shipping for the one you don't choose would be less than $50. Well, well worth it.
 

diamondseeker2006

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I absolutely agree that you cannot pick an OEC from pictures, especially when they are SI2. See if he has any other good prospects before you have him send these. I would have to think he would have more in that size range. I honestly think if you are patient, you may be able to do better than these.
 

arkieb1

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If the photos are accurate stone No. one looks slightly hazy/milky/frosty from the fluorescence. Google it on here it will explain why it is not always a good thing to have in diamonds.
 

PumpkinsAreAwesome

Shiny_Rock
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diamondseeker2006|1445463870|3940818 said:
I absolutely agree that you cannot pick an OEC from pictures, especially when they are SI2. See if he has any other good prospects before you have him send these. I would have to think he would have more in that size range. I honestly think if you are patient, you may be able to do better than these.

Diamond #2 was actually his first suggestion, which he strongly recommended despite my initial $3000-4000 budget. After telling him that $4900 was really out of out budget and that I wanted a stone with faint to medium fluorescence, he suggested Diamond #1. Looking at the OWD, there really isn't anything right now under $5000 in my color, size, and fluorescence range except diamond #1.

No luck with LAD and JBEG right now either. Diamondzone had a potential option, but it was SI3 and lacked fluorescence. Been checking ebay, diamondbistro, and loupetroop daily! Will probably hit up the estate/consignment shops this weekend again!
 

diamondseeker2006

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Please do not let fluorescence be a factor. You are not in UV lighting enough to see it most of the time. I had an ungraded diamond and did not even know it had fluorescence for 25 years until a jeweler told me when I was looking for a new setting because he held it under a UV light! You cannot count on that helping the color. I like fluorescence just because it is an interesting natural phenomenon, but it is not going to make a lower color stone white.

It sounds like you are checking the usual places, so just keep watching! I would be careful about SI2's unless the seller has a return policy or else I'd go smaller with SI1 and higher.
 

PumpkinsAreAwesome

Shiny_Rock
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diamondseeker2006|1445493005|3940935 said:
Please do not let fluorescence be a factor. You are not in UV lighting enough to see it most of the time. I had an ungraded diamond and did not even know it had fluorescence for 25 years until a jeweler told me when I was looking for a new setting because he held it under a UV light! You cannot count on that helping the color. I like fluorescence just because it is an interesting natural phenomenon, but it is not going to make a lower color stone white.

It sounds like you are checking the usual places, so just keep watching! I would be careful about SI2's unless the seller has a return policy or else I'd go smaller with SI1 and higher.

I know it sounds silly, but I want a stone with fluorescence because it seems really neat and I'd love to see my diamond glow under a black light!

I'll keep checking back with vendors and hope for the best!
 

PumpkinsAreAwesome

Shiny_Rock
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I e-mailed Adam requesting a video side by side of the two diamonds. He sent me a pic and I'm waiting for the video.


Diamond #1 is on the left and #2 is on the right.

I'm somewhat surprised how much whiter the L diamond is than the J! #2 looks much brighter, too. I'm a little worried about the crown inclusion, but Adam says the stone is eyeclean, so I'm guessing it's not visible at x1 magnification? Adam has been recommending #2 from the start, even when my budget was lower.

I've already upped the budget to $5k for a 7mm stone. Don't think I can go any higher.

img_20151028_132803.jpg
 

Veltiesmom

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hard to tell from the pics but i personally prefer the faceting of #2. my experience working with adam has been top-notch. i think you can feel comfortable trusting his judgment on the performance of the stones. the faceting is going to be a personal preference thing, though.
 

chrono

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I prefer the chunkier style of #1 but it is just too dark. I would be patient and keep looking.
 

gregchang35

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out of the 2 i prefer #2 except for the visible inclusion. but like others have said... i would wait for other stones... unless you are on a strict time...
 

PumpkinsAreAwesome

Shiny_Rock
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I went ahead and e-mailed Adam to ask about the inclusion in Diamond #2. He mailed me back with recommendations for a Diamond #3, which he personally recommends over Diamond #2:

Diamond #3:

CARAT WEIGHT: 1.48
COLOR: M
CLARITY: VS1 (GIA report reads "Surface graining not shown"
MEASURE: 7.03 - 7.29 x 4.65
DEPTH: 65.3
TABLE: 46
POLISH: Good
SYMMETRY: Fair
GIRDLE: Very Thin to Slightly Thick
FLUORESCENCE: None
CULET: Slightly Large
GIA:
Price: $5000, the absolute, ABSOLUTE most I'm willing to spend on a stone
Pics:

Based on the pictures, Diamond #2 seems to be the nicer diamond, with the main issue being the inclusion. Diamond #3 just doesn't seem as bright and symmetrical. Also, I'm not exactly thrilled about going down another color to M. However, Adam says that Diamond #3 is a better diamond, and it's pricewise only $100 more than Diamond #2.

I am so burned out right now. JBEG and LAD don't have anything for me as of now. I'm think I'm in over my head. At this point, I'm tempted to jump on this SI3/I1 stone that Ilya is offering (which looks more eyeclean in the videos than Diamond #2), save myself $1100, and finish this search once and for all! I was hoping to have my ring by Thanksgiving so my boyfriend and I could run around Disneyland wearing "Just Engaged" pins! I know it sounds silly, but it's something I've always wanted to do!

I really appreciate the support and advice from everyone on PS so far! It's definitely kept me going and given me hope that there's something out there for me!

:wall:

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diamondseeker2006

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evergreen

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PumpkinsAreAwesome said:
diamondseeker2006|1445493005|3940935 said:
Please do not let fluorescence be a factor. You are not in UV lighting enough to see it most of the time. I had an ungraded diamond and did not even know it had fluorescence for 25 years until a jeweler told me when I was looking for a new setting because he held it under a UV light! You cannot count on that helping the color. I like fluorescence just because it is an interesting natural phenomenon, but it is not going to make a lower color stone white.

It sounds like you are checking the usual places, so just keep watching! I would be careful about SI2's unless the seller has a return policy or else I'd go smaller with SI1 and higher.

I know it sounds silly, but I want a stone with fluorescence because it seems really neat and I'd love to see my diamond glow under a black light!

I'll keep checking back with vendors and hope for the best!

Pumpkin, I TOTALLY support your decision here -- I wanted an OEC with fluorescence and even though I think that was a little frustrating for Adam (who also found my diamond! -- he has a very good eye and was patient even though he'd occasionally mention a non-fluor stone that had gorgeous faceting or whatever :) ). I ended up with a smaller stone than I'd planned for, so I do get twinges of DSS sometimes, but I love having a "UV detector" stone, even though I rarely see the fluor as DS points out. I would absolutely not have wanted to settle for a non-fluor stone; I'd have whatever the need-fluorescence equivalent of DSS is if I'd gone with the big-and-gorgeously-faceted option. ;-) I think fluorescence in this situation is just like "I need a G or higher because I see tint" or "I need a VS2 or higher because seeing an inclusion bothers me" -- "I need fluorescence in my diamond because when I look for it I need it to be there." I'd never encourage you to relax your color or clarity requirements as long as you really can tell the difference between an H and a G, or a VS2 and an SI2 but for fluorescence that's a no-brainer, you clearly can see it.

(Incidentally, I returned a diamond a while ago because I couldn't see its fluorescence, even though it was supposed to have strong yellow fluor. Just like a "low" G or a really unlucky VS2, don't settle!)
 

SunnyDelta

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I agree with Diamondseeker 100%!

I've been very tempted to jump in a few times before and say just that, but I know you are already working with LAD and JBG. They both currently have very beautiful stones, within your budget, that I personally would choose over these stones.

I can completely relate to your quest to maximize size, but you might be sacrificing too much on other qualities to achieve 7mm. I just did the same thing! Stretched my budget to the max, and sacrificed way too much in order to maximize size. I ended up returning the ring and wasting everyone's time including my own. :oops:

You ultimately need to do what's best for you, and my advice is of course biased by my own recent "bad luck", but stones of lower colors, clarity, and especially symmetry aren't for everyone and if you do decide to go with Adam or IIyla please do see them in person first.
 

PumpkinsAreAwesome

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Thank you! I think right now I am all over the place. Since I started I went from wanting a 1 carat diamond to one with a 6.8-7mm spread. Next I wanted fluorescence (which I am now wavering on thanks to my social circles making inaccurate comments that fluorescence = poor quality diamond, resulting in... debate). Now, I'm pondering the idea of getting a round mine cut because the ones I've seen on JBEG and estate stores all seem to have way more fire and sparkle compared to the OECs I've seen.

Then there's this consignment store OEC. It's not certed, so the only things I can figure out are that the spread is about 6.8-7mm and that the color is probably between H to M (but so hard to tell with the yellow gold setting). I can't find any visible inclusions the the loupe, but I can see a nice kozobe effect. It's $3200 + tax, non-refundable, minus $200-300 when I resell the gold. Also, it's pretty. It's almost as if it's waiting for me.


Maybe I should take a break from the diamond hunt for a few days and focus on eating candy, dressing like a pumpkin, and making pumpkin everything. It is my holiday after all! :bigsmile:

img_20151024_134617.jpg

img_20151024_134643.jpg
 

SunnyDelta

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Taking a break might be the perfect thing! Don't force this by creating deadlines for yourself. Be patient and the perfect stone will eventually find you!! :razz:
 

diamondseeker2006

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"Now, I'm pondering the idea of getting a round mine cut because the ones I've seen on JBEG and estate stores all seem to have way more fire and sparkle compared to the OECs I've seen."

Those are going to be harder to find well cut, and I do not think that is true about them having more fire and sparkle compared to good OECs. You wouldn't see the massive number of people here buying OECs if that were true! But certainly, it's worth including those in the search. I have looked at those while looking for stones to suggest to you, but I haven't seen any yet.

I think the thing is, it is unlikely to find a stone with every single spec we want when dealing with antique or specialty cut stones. I had to drop a color grade to get the stone I wanted, and I had to give up fluorescence because none of the stones within the range of specs I wanted had it. I chose to go with specs I CAN see over those I can't see.

This looks good:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-21ct-OLD-EUROPEAN-CUT-DIAMOND-I-VS2-EGL-USA-CERT-LOOSE-ROUND-ENGAGEMENT-MINER-/171980291797?hash=item280ad2fed5:g:8OQAAOSwnOJWEuMS
 

PumpkinsAreAwesome

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diamondseeker2006|1446224021|3943856 said:
"Now, I'm pondering the idea of getting a round mine cut because the ones I've seen on JBEG and estate stores all seem to have way more fire and sparkle compared to the OECs I've seen."

Those are going to be harder to find well cut, and I do not think that is true about them having more fire and sparkle compared to good OECs. You wouldn't see the massive number of people here buying OECs if that were true! But certainly, it's worth including those in the search. I have looked at those while looking for stones to suggest to you, but I haven't seen any yet.

I think the thing is, it is unlikely to find a stone with every single spec we want when dealing with antique or specialty cut stones. I had to drop a color grade to get the stone I wanted, and I had to give up fluorescence because none of the stones within the range of specs I wanted had it. I chose to go with specs I CAN see over those I can't see.

This looks good:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-21ct-OLD-EUROPEAN-CUT-DIAMOND-I-VS2-EGL-USA-CERT-LOOSE-ROUND-ENGAGEMENT-MINER-/171980291797?hash=item280ad2fed5:g:8OQAAOSwnOJWEuMS

At this point, I think I'm willing to drop fluorescence (there's always getting an eternity band!) and drop size a little.

In fact, when Ilya sent me a list of 5 diamonds to look at, that 1.21 I diamond was on it! (others include this, this, the SI3/I1 1.48ct, and an I VSI with a 6.9 spread ($3500, but not as good a performer than the SI3). I may take a look at that one again, even if it's to see in person what a "good" OEC looks like! Definitely want to exhaust my refundable options before risking that non-refundable consignment store diamond, even though it seems to be screaming my name. :love:

Thank you again for the help and support! :wavey:
 

diamondseeker2006

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We sincerely just want to help you get the best possible diamond! I liked that 1.21 I the best of the ones Ilya had in your price range. I do think it might be worth ordering to look at. Sometimes it really takes seeing them in person to know if you love it! Good luck and keep us updated!
 

chrono

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Mine cuts are typically more cushion shaped than round shaped. They are also typically cut deeper than OECs, so for the same carat weight, they tend to face up smaller. Some also have a strong Maltese cross in the middle, that not everyone likes. I think you need to take some time off to think about exactly what you want and what trade offs you are willing to accept.
 

PumpkinsAreAwesome

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Chrono|1446230257|3943897 said:
Mine cuts are typically more cushion shaped than round shaped. They are also typically cut deeper than OECs, so for the same carat weight, they tend to face up smaller. Some also have a strong Maltese cross in the middle, that not everyone likes. I think you need to take some time off to think about exactly what you want and what trade offs you are willing to accept.

I think I can live with a cushiony shape if it's set in a way that makes it look round. However, not so sure about the Maltese cross. If my best bet to find a round, fiery antique diamond is the OEC then I should stay the course!

I received an e-mail from Ilya from offered to send me video of the 1.21. He said that he "doesn't buy bad diamonds" - a sentiment echoed by Adam, JBEG, and LAD. As much as I want to trust them, I think I trust the experts on PS a bit more (especially when I get pictures from vendors of dark diamonds or diamonds with inclusions in the crown)! Anyway, I requested a comparison video of the 1.21 and the 1.48 SI3. I should get it next week!
 

Veltiesmom

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I cannot recommend strongly enough seeing a few of the diamonds you are considering in person before you purchase. (This was DS's sound advice that I am so glad I followed.) Having had 5 or 6 OECs shipped to me (so far), I can tell you that how they look on video and in photos is totally different than how they look in person. My opinion is that there is no possible way to accurately judge these diamonds from afar. So I feel like thus far you have been flying completely blind. If you have a vendor you can trust, then you can generally rely on them to tell you if something is worth considering or not. But only you can decide if the specific look and facet pattern is for you. Old cuts are very different than most modern cuts in this way, in my opinion.
 
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