My nanny did WHAT?!??!!

[janinegirly]

Hope you''re feeling better LIA, I''m sorry you felt under attack in some cases on this thread--we are here to support but it also touches a nerve because we can relate on some level!

I agree with others that moms have lapses of judgement too, all the time! But it''s different when you are specifically hiring someone who was so careless. Particularlyl when it seemed partially due to the fact that she thought no one was there to witness it(she was shocked when LIA walked in etc). It''s hard enough as it is with childcare--it''s not worth the added stress/guilt/thoughts that would linger with continued use of this particular nanny--and then to pay for it to boot!

Anyway, please check back in LIA (and I had no idea you were a physician!). Dumb question but did this nanny come with references etc?

Oh and on the mouth bleeding thing-we''ve had that expereince too. When DD started on solids she coughed on a piece of bread and I told DH to get it out...he went in and scooped with his finger and her mouth bled. I freaked (since I thought it was connected to choking), but DH said her skin is that sensitive.

 

[asscherisme]

I''m reading your post thinking the whole time, fire her. And then I was shocked to get to the end where you are taking about her positives and wondering what to do?

When it comes to children''s safety, one strike and you are out. Fire her. NO brainer.

She put your child in danger. How could you possible trust her?

Few things in life are black and white, but this one is. She needs to go. I would not leave my child with her one more day. One more minute alone.

 

[Mara]

one other thought that occured to me is along the lines of... similar to an elderly grandmother. someone who is a little slow on the reflexes, maybe memory isn''t quite so good. she may ADORE that child and love him to pieces, but would you feel entirely comfortable with a ''less than 100000% able'' caregiver with your child? especially one that is professionally paid. this is not even a family member where you might feel obligated in some way. i agree with TG and others that her personal situation is not your issue. if you are not absolutely confident in her care capabilities, i would let her go.

i too am baffled as to why she would say ''i should have brought him in'' if she just flat out didn''t.

 

[hihowareyou]

Interesting you said she is a mother herself. Perhaps to her leaving her baby in a court yard of a gated community with the door closed while he slept is an acceptable risk but she needs to understand that your child isn''t her child and those are not her decisions to make. I would think that you would always be extra cautious with someone else''s child, especially as a nanny. I know when I have looked after other people''s children I always check in my mind if the parent''s would approve of anything I''m about to do, if there is any doubt then I either don''t do it or check first. I agree with you that she should never have left him out there and disapprove of her actions regardless of whether it was her child, your child or anyone else''s child for that matter but the fact that it was your child means that she didn''t have the right to make the judgement call that she did.

I grew up in a house where my parents worked and I had a nanny for many years. My mother had what perhaps were strict parenting ''rules'', e.g. we must spend at least an hour a day playing outside in the garden, no TV during the day, no playing in the front garden, etc. I know that the nanny didn''t raise her children in a remotely similar way but that didn''t matter and she abided by my parent''s wishes because we were not her children and it wasn''t her call to decide what was best for us.

I think it comes down to an issue of trust now. Can you trust that she will looking after your son from now on according to your standards or will you always be concerned that she may be making similarly irresponsible choices while you are at work.

 

[megumic]

I understand everyone''s argument that this is her job and she is hired for this specific purpose. But I have to say, the childcare "profession" is hard to tack a standard to. What makes someone a "PROFESSIONAL" nanny anyway??? There is no formal training, except experience and maybe a child education background and CPR certification. We pay doctors and lawyers with professional degrees a ton more money than our nannies, but they make mistakes with our health care and legal issues too.

It seems everyone on here is willing to fire a nanny for something that I don''t see as particularly egregious compared to so many other things this nanny could have done wrong. What is the standard of a good nanny anyway??? There are too many unexpected and spontaneous moments that happen in the care of a child that not every single action a nanny takes can be completed up to a parents standard. There''s no way to anticipate every action and reaction in such a job - it''s simply unpredictable.

I''m sure some of you will be outraged with my next comment, but I sincerely think this is true. If you don''t want someone else using their judgment in the care of your child, then you should care for your own child. Nobody will do it exactly the way you''ll do it or the way you want it done, so I think, to an extent, hiring a nanny or sending your children to daycare requires the parents to accept someone elses judgment for their own.

 

[upgrade]

Date: 12/9/2009 12:18:57 PM
Author: megumic
I understand everyone's argument that this is her job and she is hired for this specific purpose. But I have to say, the childcare 'profession' is hard to tack a standard to. What makes someone a 'PROFESSIONAL' nanny anyway??? There is no formal training, except experience and maybe a child education background and CPR certification. We pay doctors and lawyers with professional degrees a ton more money than our nannies, but they make mistakes with our health care and legal issues too.

It seems everyone on here is willing to fire a nanny for something that I don't see as particularly egregious compared to so many other things this nanny could have done wrong. What is the standard of a good nanny anyway??? There are too many unexpected and spontaneous moments that happen in the care of a child that not every single action a nanny takes can be completed up to a parents standard. There's no way to anticipate every action and reaction in such a job - it's simply unpredictable.

I'm sure some of you will be outraged with my next comment, but I sincerely think this is true. If you don't want someone else using their judgment in the care of your child, then you should care for your own child. Nobody will do it exactly the way you'll do it or the way you want it done, so I think, to an extent, hiring a nanny or sending your children to daycare requires the parents to accept someone elses judgment for their own.

Here's the thing though... that, to me, was not a spontaneous moment. A child falling and injuring himself is a spontaneous moment. Leaving him alone, out of sight and earshot was a decision she made, and a poor one at that. I understand that nannies will make mistakes and I actually agree with you that if you are going to have a nanny/babysitter/daycare provider you will need to trust their judgement. There are however certain 'unforgivable offenses' in my book. As a parent, to me any of the following would be grounds for instant termination: abuse or neglect of any kind; taking the child in the car without a carseat/proper seatbelt; leaving the child unattended in the bath; leaving the child unattended and unsecured outoors. Any of those thing has the potential for disaster and I think that any caregiver who makes that kind of caregiving choice cannot be trusted.

I would like to say to LIA that I think my previous post was poorly worded. What I was trying to say is in order to allow yourself to feel less guilty (because you really have nothing to feel guilty about), simplify the equation here: what is more important, your nanny's feelings or your child's safety? Goodbye Nanny.

 

[AGSHF]

LIA, I''ve read most of the responses, including yours. I fully agree with the outrage. There is no excuse -- I don''t care how "safe" your neighborhood appears to be. A small child should just never be left out of eye- and earshot. The neighbors can just as easily be crazy for all you know, not to mention the javelinas (!).

If you feel compassion for this woman and her circumstances, you should consider giving her a "severance" allowance while letting her go. Perhaps a week''s or two week''s pay. You don''t have to do this, of course. But, if you were to move, put your child in daycare, etc., you''d feel the need to give her advance notice. This would be the financial equivalent.

Assuage your "conscience" if you have to, but your first and only allegiance is to your child''s safety.

Best wishes.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 12/9/2009 12:18:57 PM
Author: megumic
I understand everyone''s argument that this is her job and she is hired for this specific purpose. But I have to say, the childcare ''profession'' is hard to tack a standard to. What makes someone a ''PROFESSIONAL'' nanny anyway??? There is no formal training, except experience and maybe a child education background and CPR certification. We pay doctors and lawyers with professional degrees a ton more money than our nannies, but they make mistakes with our health care and legal issues too.

It seems everyone on here is willing to fire a nanny for something that I don''t see as particularly egregious compared to so many other things this nanny could have done wrong. What is the standard of a good nanny anyway??? There are too many unexpected and spontaneous moments that happen in the care of a child that not every single action a nanny takes can be completed up to a parents standard. There''s no way to anticipate every action and reaction in such a job - it''s simply unpredictable.

I''m sure some of you will be outraged with my next comment, but I sincerely think this is true. If you don''t want someone else using their judgment in the care of your child, then you should care for your own child. Nobody will do it exactly the way you''ll do it or the way you want it done, so I think, to an extent, hiring a nanny or sending your children to daycare requires the parents to accept someone elses judgment for their own.

Hm, so you have no kids and were a nanny? Then your response makes sense.

I''m really not sure how your doctor''s and lawyers comment has anything to do with this? Because if they make mistakes, there are consequences depending on gravity. As in this case. Leaving a child unattended is a BIG mistake for a nanny. Perhaps it''s acceptable when you nanny, but obviously most (if not all) mothers would agree that it is serious cause for concern. And in many professional fields, EXPERIENCE is training. I am a salesperson. I never got real training on how to be a salesperson (never took a clinic or anything). You learn and sharpen your skills on the job. It''s totally fair to assume a nanny is a professional caregiver. It is her PROFESSION.

I agree with the poster who said there are many SPONTANEOUS moments that will happen. This was not spontaneous. It was thought out and she knew she should have brought the child in. I would be far more understanding if my child got injured under my nanny''s care (providing it was not negligence). Sh*t happens. No one is saying that nannies have to be PERFECT. But they NEED to be WATCHING over your kid.

I agree that no one will do it exactly the way you want it done, nor will anyone do it better than the mother herself. I would also accept my nanny''s judgment if I hire her. It is when I see a complete LAPSE in judgment that is the problem. And I''m really not sure how anyone could think this wasn''t a fireable offense.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 12/9/2009 3:15:51 PM
Author: AGSHF
LIA, I''ve read most of the responses, including yours. I fully agree with the outrage. There is no excuse -- I don''t care how ''safe'' your neighborhood appears to be. A small child should just never be left out of eye- and earshot. The neighbors can just as easily be crazy for all you know, not to mention the javelinas (!).

If you feel compassion for this woman and her circumstances, you should consider giving her a ''severance'' allowance while letting her go. Perhaps a week''s or two week''s pay. You don''t have to do this, of course. But, if you were to move, put your child in daycare, etc., you''d feel the need to give her advance notice. This would be the financial equivalent.

Assuage your ''conscience'' if you have to, but your first and only allegiance is to your child''s safety.

Best wishes.

Ditto - a severance check would make you feel better about letting her go, while still doing the right thing.

 

[Gemma12]

LIA! Oh my goodness, I am so sorry this has happened to you. Poor you and DH and Coby!

Ironically I am here this morning to search for 'nanny' as I remembered Mia posting a great list of questions to ask nannies that I want to get for a friend.

My situation is so similar to yours-work a few days a week as a doctor, have a nanny who is lovely (but is not me!) looking after P.

Here's the thing:

1. It sounds like you've made your peace with the idea that the person who looks after your kid is not always going to make the same judgement call as you in certain situations. So they might give the kid chips or biscuits or juice when you would give fruit or water, for example. I'm guessing that you're okay with that-and I don't think that's why you're reacting like you are. This is obviously NOT one of those situations.

2. You're a compassionate person-your life and your training have made you that and you can't just switch it off. Letting her go is going to be hard for you. It's also going to have an impact on Coby, if he likes her and gets along well with her.

3. Your nanny had a lapse in judgement. That lapse resulted in Coby being in a situation that was clearly unsafe. She prioritised him sleeping and getting the dishes done over bringing him inside. That was a really bad decision that could have had significant consequences.

I'm about 80% on the firing her side but only you can make the decision. Totally agree with Tacori and Kaleigh, you're in the situation, you will make the right call. From what you've described she took an unacceptable risk-but she is human and will make mistakes. I know moms in Europe who let their babies sleep unsupervised in prams in a fenced backyard-but that is an unacceptable risk to me, and still materially different from this situation too. It is possible that she didn't think it all through, and only in talking with her will you be able to know how much she has reset her expectations of what you want her to do. If it was my nanny honestly I probably would let her go. Ugh. Not fun, I'm sorry you are dealing with this.

ETA: Just wanted to clarify-I would let my nanny go because although she has previously exhibited good judgement this event would make me feel uncomfortable about leaving P with her. There is a bit of 'better the devil you know' about it because there will be times when whoever is looking after her (me, DH, caregiver) will make a lapse in judgement. I think the issue is-this was not distraction, it was failing to think the ramifications of her decision through and if that is the start of a pattern of behaviour it will continue to put the child at risk. We've only had our nanny for a few months though, so if it was five years into the relationship and this was the first serious event then that puts a different spin on it. Ok! I don't think I've helped at all here but I'm sending you hugs.

 

[mia1181]

Date: 12/9/2009 12:18:57 PM
Author: megumic
I understand everyone''s argument that this is her job and she is hired for this specific purpose. But I have to say, the childcare ''profession'' is hard to tack a standard to. What makes someone a ''PROFESSIONAL'' nanny anyway??? There is no formal training, except experience and maybe a child education background and CPR certification. We pay doctors and lawyers with professional degrees a ton more money than our nannies, but they make mistakes with our health care and legal issues too.

It seems everyone on here is willing to fire a nanny for something that I don''t see as particularly egregious compared to so many other things this nanny could have done wrong. What is the standard of a good nanny anyway??? There are too many unexpected and spontaneous moments that happen in the care of a child that not every single action a nanny takes can be completed up to a parents standard. There''s no way to anticipate every action and reaction in such a job - it''s simply unpredictable.

I''m sure some of you will be outraged with my next comment, but I sincerely think this is true. If you don''t want someone else using their judgment in the care of your child, then you should care for your own child. Nobody will do it exactly the way you''ll do it or the way you want it done, so I think, to an extent, hiring a nanny or sending your children to daycare requires the parents to accept someone elses judgment for their own.

I ditto everything T-Gal said but I also wanted to take this opportunity to give a little PSA about professinal nannies.

There is a difference between a nanny and a babysitter. A babysitter''s job is to keep your kids safe for a few hours until you get home, a nanny''s job is to help raise your children. It is becoming popular for people to call their sitter a nanny (I think it''s status thing) so as a result nannies that want to be set apart from all of the "sitters" tend to call themselves "professional nannies."

I was a professional nanny and here is what I think set me apart:
-worked fulltime (~50 hours per week. If the kids were awake on the weekday, chances were I was there)
-PAID INCOME TAXES!
-education (I have my BS in Education and hold a State Teaching Credential)
-experience (I nannied for ~9years before changing careers)
-I did not do housework and spent hours each week planning lessons and researching childcare topics for my boss.
-There is no official certification, but I was a member of INA (International Nanny Association) http://www.nanny.org/faqsdefinitions.php
-I treated my job as a career. I was not nannying as a temporary thing to "make some money while in college" or until I could find something better.

That said, babysitter or nanny, whatever, I think anytime you question the judgement of your caregiver, it''s time to move on. I don''t think moms here are saying nannies can''t make mistakes. But the fact that this girl lacked the judgement to realize the danger in this situation is a little scary. It probably won''t happen again but what if there are other times when she can''t see the danger?

LIA (((hugs))), I know this isn''t easy....

 

[Kaleigh]

LIA,

My thing now is trust... I trust you will do the right thing... But have to say,,,, going foward leaving the house with your precious LO behind with her?? I don''t know that I could do that. My kids are 21 and 19 so don''t have this problem..... But I did have Nanny''s when I was working...

If this situation had happened to me???

She''d be fired on the spot. You can explain away her issues. I''d stop making allowances for her poor judgement, You are a Doc.... I trust your knowledge and your judgement..... But see this for what is is.... and learn from it....

Methinks, you missed a big mishap with this one... Next time you may not be soooo lucky.

I think you are very wise, and very smart. So not attacking you in any way... JUst hoping your LO is safe going forward.....[

 

[VegasAngel]

That is just weird. Why in the world did she not just bring him in, was it too hard to push the stroller into the house?

I would have to fire her for that.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I think it is easy for us to say we would fire the nanny immediately, because we only see this one thing and not all the good things that she has donek, and perhaps the bond between her and your son. I know in reality it is harder to make any difficult choice than it is when it is hypothetical.

That said, I still feel like another option needs to be found as soon as possible. I would not want someone caring for my son who made the choice this nanny made. It means that she is operating on a different set of norms and parameters for childcare than I am, and that means I could not trust her future choices.

 

[Jas12]

Big ditto to everything DD said.

I don''t think it is cut and dry as most have suggested. In theory she should be fired on the spot, but in practice it''s much more difficult. As a person with a heart, which LIA has, it is natural to take other elements into consideration. I certainly would and i know i would struggle as she is. i am trying to think if my MIL (who takes care of my son full-time) did something similar. Would i ''fire'' her? It''s not exactly the same b/c she is not paid, but she IS chosen, so could i tell her she could no longer provide care if she made a serious error in judgment? I simply don''t know.
In theory yes, she could be replaced, in practice however that would be so hard to do....

 

[D2B]

As a mother my head is spinning here....

WHY TAKE THE RISK.... she needs to go.

How will you trust her agian, you came home unexpectantly and early I would forever be wondering what is she doing now? You dont leave children unattended in the front for any lenght of time period. It is a judgement error, but the next one she makes can have disastrous outcomes. how will this nanny learn the lesson that this is a big no no, if there are no big consequences, fire her so she sees this is not on and doesnt do it to your child or the next she babysits

Someone mentioned waht if it was your MIL, and that you cant fire her, true....... BUT, I would limit contact, slowly build up contact and watch her like a hawk until I was sure my MIL know how to look after my child. If there were other issues, eg dementia setting in, or just irresponsible, then I wouldnt have her mind my child alone and always be there. much different to a paid employee.

good luck, but why on earth risk it and who will she learn that this is soooo not on.

db

 

[phoenixgirl]

My smoke alarm went off the other day (a pumping bottle fell to the bottom of the dishwasher), and I ran downstairs with the baby not knowing if there was a real fire. I thought about putting her in her carseat on the front porch while I investigated, but I just didn''t feel comfortable doing that even for a second. I felt like the chances of something happening to her while she was alone outside for a minute were greater than that we were suddenly going to be engulfed in flames with no warning (I burned down my kitchen once, and the smoke wasn''t anything like it was that time, so I felt like I could make that assumption).

I will say, though, that my British friend says her mom used to leave her outside to nap alone. There could be cultural differences in this regard. BUT she knows what your cultural norms are, obviously, or she wouldn''t have reacted the way she did.

 

[PinkTower]

Phoenixgirl,
I am glad you mentioned that about the babies in England. I had completely forgotten how that I have seen stroller babies outside shops so often in in Scotland when we visit. I guess the shops are just too small for strollers. Perhaps there is a cultural difference.

 

[Pandora II]

Date: 12/11/2009 2:15:13 PM
Author: Pink Tower
Phoenixgirl,
I am glad you mentioned that about the babies in England. I had completely forgotten how that I have seen stroller babies outside shops so often in in Scotland when we visit. I guess the shops are just too small for strollers. Perhaps there is a cultural difference.

Nowadays it''s unusual to actually leave the baby outside in the stroller - although my mother certainly did with all 4 of us - except possibly in a small village where you are just popping in for a second. I personally wouldn''t, but I would and do however leave Daisy in the back garden or on the terrace without a second thought - but I do have the door open so I could hear her.

 

[GliderPoss]

Hmmm interesting replies to this thread. Obviously it''s her choice what to do. Personally I wouldn''t fire her on the spot but would take time to consider it and discuss rules with the nanny, perhps install cameras around the home. If I wasn''t fully satisfied - then I''d fire her. (Disclaimer: I don''t have kids yet)

As an aside, my mum used to ocassionally leave us in the car whilst shopping IF we were asleep. We lived in a very small country town (in Australia) and it was considered perfectly safe. If we woke up and stated crying, then a local would simply pop into the shop and let mum know! Obviously in some other countries also this is common.

 

[snlee]

LIA, so sorry you are going through this! I just want to say use your instincts. You are a GREAT mom. I KNOW you will do the right thing! Hugs.

 

[janinegirly]

snlee said it so well. We miss you and are thinking of you LIA!

 

[Mrs Mitchell]

Date: 12/11/2009 2:15:13 PM
Author: Pink Tower
Phoenixgirl,
I am glad you mentioned that about the babies in England. I had completely forgotten how that I have seen stroller babies outside shops so often in in Scotland when we visit. I guess the shops are just too small for strollers. Perhaps there is a cultural difference.

I live in Scotland, with a baby, and I would not do this in a million years. I haven't seen anyone do this, either. I worked in child protection services, so that may colour my view, but there are untrustworthy people in even the smallest, closest-knit communities sometimes. When I'm out with A in her stroller, it is attached to me with a wrist strap. If a shop is too small for the stroller, I leave that outside and carry A with me.

LIA, hope you have resolved the situation in a way that makes you happy and that you're feeling better about all this. I've been thinking about you and Coby.

Jen

 

[lover in athens]

just a quick pop in to say thanks to everyone for all the great advice. a special thanks to all my mom-friends who post regularly for your support (dreamer, snlee, pandora, mrs m, etc)...and GEMMA...HI!!!! so great to hear from you.

just a quick update...
a bunch of you hit the nail on the head when you said it''s easy to post the bad things, but you guys certainly aren''t seeing/hearing the good things too. i know that this woman loves coby. although, yes, she did make a VERY SERIOUS mistake.

for the past couple of weeks, DH has luckily been off of work when she''s been here. she has not always known that was the case. he would randomly pop in and out of the house without any notice, and the nanny was ALWAYS being incredibly vigilant and attentive with coby. so i felt somewhat reassured when we were BOTH back at work today. i actually happened to come home early again (without notice), and things were just as they should be with the nanny reading a story to coby with him cuddled in her lap. thank GOODNESS!!

that being said, we are still going to let her go. i have already signed coby up for daycare starting in january, and i will be going for a visit tomorrow. i have a million mixed emotions about this, but i''m trying to be optimistic. i worry about him getting sick, i worry about him not liking being away from the house, i worry that he won''t have the 1 on 1 attention from the nanny anymore...and selfishly, i am not looking forward to the extra time of dropping him off/picking him up, packing lunches, coming home to a semi-clean house (although the nanny didn''t do any real housework except straighten the kitchen). oh well! obviously if it doesn''t work out, there is always the option of looking for another nanny!!


thanks again to everyone for your input and support...
xo,LIA

 

[somethingshiny]

LIA~ I''m glad that you''ve been a bit at ease with the nanny now. Good luck starting Coby in daycare.

 

[Dreamer_D]

LIA it sounds like a good solution. I think you will be surprised at how much Coby likes daycare. If it is anything like the place where I am sending Hunter, and I am sure it is, it looks like there are just *more* people to love him and play with him and give him attention each day. Yes, not one on one, but still great quality attention.

 

[janinegirly]

LIA, glad you checked back in and sounds like you''ve come up with a great solution. Good luck with it all!

 

[Kay]

LIA, glad to hear you''ve come up with a solution. There may be some tears the first few times you drop Coby off at day care, but I bet he will quickly start to love having play time with the other children. My DD really enjoys socializing with the other kids and the teachers.