my gamble on a 3+ carat OEC from ebay - need advice

[patentgirl]

I recently won an ebay auction for a ring containing a 3 carat OEC. I knowingly took a big risk, as this is the first OEC that i have purchased, and the seller (although reputable) does not accept returns (unless misrepresented). At this point you may think - ok, this girl is a little cray cray, and you may be right… but at the time my gut told me that the price i paid is still quite good given the sheer size of the stone. Either way, this will be a huge learning experience for me, so I hope that perhaps i can offer this up as a learning experience to others as well, whether good or bad.

As some background, i discovered PS about five years ago when i began the hunt for an engagement ring. I found the information on the site fascinating and spent a ton of time reading through posts, educating myself, and just taking it all in. It was great. I am so thankful that this site exists, and I have lurked for years since then.

Images from the ebay listing are below. Here is a description from the listing:

Centered with 1 genuine 100% Natural round European cut diamond approx: 3.04cttw, J-K color, SI clarity ( Small Natural inclusion on the side Not visible with an naked eye)that is framed by 25 genuine square French cut Deep red Color ruby gems approx: 1.65cttw, bezel and channel set.

Normally i wouldn’t broadcast what i paid, but in this case it is an important factor. I paid a bit under 13K for the ring.

The ring arrived yesterday, and i took it to an independent appraiser today to get her thoughts.

My initial impressions of the stone were:
Wow, its enormous! The color seems warmer/lower than J/K (which doesn’t bother me that much). It’s a stunner at normal arm’s length distance, has a nice snowflake pattern, put off big flashes of light and looks like a discoball on my finger. BUT on close inspection it’s got some serious funkiness going on. There is a visible inclusion towards one edge, but what i find more concerning is the appearance of lots of little “scratches” all over the stone which i think are very distracting and make the faceting look “off.” These “scratches” seem to come and go, and are much more noticeable in direct bright light. More on the “scratches” from the appraiser below.
Cut wise it feels a bit schizophrenic, it is lacking the symmetry that i find appealing in many OEC’s, but perhaps this is due to the “scratches”?

From my visit with the appraiser:
- It’s bigger than the stated 3 carats! It measures 10.2 x 10.3 x 5.95 and is estimated at at least 3.56 ct; could be even larger since she can’t measure how much the stone extends under the bezel
- color is lower than K, maybe L, but can’t tell while it is in the setting
- clarity: I1 - In addition to a feather off to one side, and a small crystal, it has two small needles directly under the table that are reflected throughout the stone. These are the “scratches” that i was describing above.
- setting is likely a reproduction, looks cast (can’t say i would keep it in the setting anyway). in general, the setting (and rubies) show almost no signs of wear.


Based on my discussion with the appraiser i think i have good arguments for returning the ring, but i’m torn and need advice!

I’m having a real hard time with all the inclusions, and especially the two needles which reflect around and create the look of tiny scratches all over the stone. Of course you can’t see any of this from a foot away, but upon close inspection it’s quite ugly (see photos). But at almost 13K i should really love it.

Then there’s the other side of me that feels like it’s “a deal” and i’ll probably NEVER see a stone of this size again in my life as i can’t see myself ever spending the 30K+ it would take. Perhaps I can live with it’s imperfections at this size & price.

And i may get laughed at for this, but a part of me thinks that perhaps 3.5 carats is TOO BIG?

Ok, on to the photos. Looking forward to your honest feedback I need to decide whether i’m going to keep this thing by Friday.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I think the diamond is likely exactly the weight they said. I bet they saw it loose before selling it. They would not give an exact weight if they did not know.There are likely a lot of chips around the external edge of the diamond under the bezel, which is why the seller set it in that type of mount, since its clearly a repro and the bezel looks newly done. From the photos, the seller is a professional and they don't give things away, and offering no returns basically means they know they are selling something with issues that they have misrepresented. The photshop alone for color in their original images and to eliminate the visible inclusions is a ref flag. So if the stone was 3.56 they would know. I can tell from looking at the images the diamond is shallow, so that is likely why it faces up large. The color looks in the OP range or maybe even ST. I know its hard to tell from images, but that is not an L color stone based on my experience judging photos. AND given the price, ST and I2 or worse is your better bet.

Run, do not walk, to return it. If you keep it, tell them you want them to unset it from the bezel and you will only keep it if there is not major damage.

 

[Dreamer_D]

The circles area is the place I am particularly concerned about. The look of that feather -- in other words crack -- reminds me a lot of another diamond I saw that had been damaged from a hit to its outer edge. It too was in a bezel but it had not been fixed so I could see under the bezel where the damage was. So, I bet there is a chip under there and if its pulled from the bezel it will be a doozy. Also if you look at the bezel facets, or kite facets, you can see in that close up where the bezel covers a good portion of them all the way around, but some are much more covered than others... and that is where the damage is most likely to be!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Return it now!..

 

[yennyfire]

I'm not the expert that Dreamer is, but I'd take her advice and RUN to return the ring (or negotiate a substantial discount since its clearly not what is was represented to be). To my eye, the color is warmer than an L (again, fine if you love it and the price is appropriate). What did the appraiser say about the scratches? Are they experienced with old stones? If not, where are you located? I'm wondering if you're near any of the PS respected antique specialists and could get another opinion (Ari at Singlestone, Dave Atlas, Grace at Jewels by Grace)? I'm on my phone, so not easily able to search for comparables, but I have a feeling that you overpaid for what you got.

 

[GemFever]

I would also advise to return. There are just too many issues with the stone and nearly $13K is just too much money for a "fun" stone, imo. [Edited to add, by "fun" I mean a stone that you would take a huge loss on if you ever tried to resell it, so it's kind of a stone you just have to accept for what it is and love it despite imperfections. Some ebay finds are perfect for that -- they are imperfect but we still love them. But this stone is just too expensive for that kind of approach.]

Will you be able to get a stone of a similar size on that budget? Probably not. But with some patience, you could probably go over 2cts, maybe even 2.5cts, in the lower-color range and get a beautiful OEC. You have a great budget and should be able to find a stunning stone.

If you don't love the setting of this diamond, I think you'll have a hard time hiding the imperfections in other settings, which is a big factor.

Hmm, there was something else I wanted to add... ah yes, about the pattern. You wrote: "Cut wise it feels a bit schizophrenic, it is lacking the symmetry that i find appealing in many OEC’s." I wanted to say that OECs don't always look super symmetrical when they are in motion (like they do on PS pics). But the faceting pattern on this stone doesn't look too sharp, even if one ignores the reflected inclusions. I agree with Dreamer that this stone is probably on the shallower side.

Good luck with your decision and please let us know how it goes!

 

[Hera]

I saw it on ebay and was admiring it at the time. I'm pretty disappointed that the vendor really photoshopped their images up. You can't really even see the inclusions on the pics and the stone looks very white. I actually don't think the cut itself is that terrible. It might be a little shallow but I see discernible facets. Those inclusions, though, would be a deal breaker for me and I advise you to do a return as well

Did you get a written appraisal? Did the appraiser mention anything about the inclusions, specifically the ones on the edge of the stone?

 

[Circe]

I'm another one to advocate a virtuous and immediate return. You CAN find stones in the neighborhood of 2.5 carats for around that that are actual Ls, depending on time trolling, luck of the draw, etc (someone - can't remember your name off the top of my head, sorry!- was just looking at a great 2.13ish stone that faces up like 2.5 for less than 10k, certed ... that's plenty left for a repro setting). This was pure dishonesty on their part, they don't deserve to keep 13k of your money.

 

[Circe]

P.S. - I may be feeling pissy over another eBayer "accidentally" sending me an eternity misrepresented through fake pics. This isn't the sort of thing anybody can predict or look out for ... just a reason to be glad eBay/PayPal makes sellers take returns when they obviously misrepresent. The time sunk in dealing with scoundrels is apparently the counterbalance for the occasional steals. Post your desired specs in the antiques section, I bet we can find you better!

 

[Mico]

I vote to return

 

[patentgirl]

Thank you all so much for your valuable input! At the time of posting I think my gut was telling me to return, but i really needed to hear it from all of you. I also now feel more confident about my claim in terms of the ring not being accurately represented. I am hoping that as a reputable seller on ebay, who i have done business with before, they will be cooperative in accepting my return.

Dreamer - Funny, when i met with the appraiser and she was giving me info about how the setting was a repro and looked like it had never been worn i was kind of thinking well that doesn’t matter to me so much, because i had primarily bought this for the center stone. But knowing that information now makes complete sense, and its amazing how spot on you are - that the seller had to have seen the stone unset, and created the setting with bezel for the stone, likely to hide some of its flaws.

Yennyfire - I am in the SF Bay Area, the master gemologist i went to does have experience with old cuts (although probably not at the level of Ari, Dave & Erica as you mentioned) She didn’t like the “scratches” which are really reflections from two very small needles directly under the table.

Hera - Agreed i’m a bit disappointed in the photos from the seller. Seeing the stone in person and having a background in photography it seems likely to me that the photos were probably edited some, at least in terms of color.

I did not get a full written appraisal, she didn’t want to charge me for a full appraisal unless i was sure i would keep it. But i did get a pretty detailed email description with photos that she said i could use if i needed to backup my return. She didn’t seem to think the feather & crystal were that big of a deal.

 

[arkieb1]

Another vote to return it. I think you are overwhelmed by it's size which you love but there is very little else to really like about this diamond other than size and the setting although new is pretty. You could buy a decent 2 carat OEC for that amount and put it into a new target setting and I think you would be in front.

 

[patentgirl]

Another vote to return it. I think you are overwhelmed by it's size which you love but there is very little else to really like about this diamond other than size and the setting although new is pretty. You could buy a decent 2 carat OEC for that amount and put it into a new target setting and I think you would be in front.

I think you are spot on. I can't believe i am saying this, but i don't think i really want a 3 carat stone, although its certainly exciting to wear one around for a day! I think i would be much happier with a 2-2.5 carat stone that has an awesome cut and better clarity.

 

[Gypsy]

Another vote to return it. I think you are overwhelmed by it's size which you love but there is very little else to really like about this diamond other than size and the setting although new is pretty. You could buy a decent 2 carat OEC for that amount and put it into a new target setting and I think you would be in front.

Yup.

You could go for certainty and buy this one: http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/11124/ The faceting is lovely. $11,902.00 And it's got a GIA lab report.

 

[Hera]

Another vote to return it. I think you are overwhelmed by it's size which you love but there is very little else to really like about this diamond other than size and the setting although new is pretty. You could buy a decent 2 carat OEC for that amount and put it into a new target setting and I think you would be in front.

Yup.

You could go for certainty and buy this one: http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/11124/ The faceting is lovely. $11,902.00 And it's got a GIA lab report.

Gypsy, I've been trying to get people to buy that stone for MONTHS I think it's pretty beautiful. The ASET and the video show a little darkness under the table that would have to be evaluated in person but I'm a fan. Not sure why it hasn't sold yet!

 

[Dreamer_D]

When I bought my ring on ebay it was sold as a 1.89ct G Si1 and it had big globby prongs. My diamond is about 8mm in diameter, which for an old cut is spready so I thought it might be bigger than 2ct! I unset the stone and weighed it and... drumroll.... it was 1.89ct. So clearly, the vendor had seen the diamond loose and then had poorly reset the stone. And of course they saw it loose. They NEEDED to know if it was over 2ct or not, just like the seller of your diamond would have NEEDED to know if it was over 3ct. So, it was my experiene that made me think yours has also been seen loose.

And, my seller had super washed out photos like yours aimed at obscuring the color. Once unset, my stone is a K/L SI2. Not the G Si1 represented by the very reputable estate ebay seller. ETA: I should say my diamond masks its body color very well, my appraiser guessed it at I color face up when set. So if I did not know that the seller had seen the stone loose, where its body color is much more noticable, then I might have excused the mis-grading on the "appraisal".

So, after that and a couple other experiences, I have my own way of interpreting ebay grades for color and clarity that are based on seller opinion or in house appraisals (i.e., most estate sellers).

"GH" in ebay speak means I/J/K.
"J/K" means M/N/O.
"K/L" in ebay speak means "Faint Yellow" (i.e., N-Q).

And there are only three ebay clarity grades.

"VVS/VS1" means the stone is likely eye clean, but beyond that who knows.
"VS2/SI1" riskier buy, maybe SI1 but could be SI2.
"SI2/I1" run away, this has huge eye visible inclusions.

Its another story with private sellers. Their appraisals can be quite accurate.

 

[Gypsy]

Another vote to return it. I think you are overwhelmed by it's size which you love but there is very little else to really like about this diamond other than size and the setting although new is pretty. You could buy a decent 2 carat OEC for that amount and put it into a new target setting and I think you would be in front.

Yup.

You could go for certainty and buy this one: http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/11124/ The faceting is lovely. $11,902.00 And it's got a GIA lab report.

Gypsy, I've been trying to get people to buy that stone for MONTHS I think it's pretty beautiful. The ASET and the video show a little darkness under the table that would have to be evaluated in person but I'm a fan. Not sure why it hasn't sold yet!

I'm not concerned. The ASET looks similar the one on this AVR with an AGS0: http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/9648/ It should flash on and off.

 

[Hera]

Another vote to return it. I think you are overwhelmed by it's size which you love but there is very little else to really like about this diamond other than size and the setting although new is pretty. You could buy a decent 2 carat OEC for that amount and put it into a new target setting and I think you would be in front.

Yup.

You could go for certainty and buy this one: http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/11124/ The faceting is lovely. $11,902.00 And it's got a GIA lab report.

Gypsy, I've been trying to get people to buy that stone for MONTHS I think it's pretty beautiful. The ASET and the video show a little darkness under the table that would have to be evaluated in person but I'm a fan. Not sure why it hasn't sold yet!

I'm not concerned. The ASET looks similar the one on this AVR with an AGS0: http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/9648/ It should flash on and off.

That's what Jon had to say about the stone in one of his videos(but you know how that goes....). I agree that it's beautiful.

 

[ruby59]

I recognized that seller from ebay as well and follow his auctions. I thought he was one of the better sellers and have bid on several of his auctions and eventually would have purchased from him. But wow, the actual diamond looks nothing like his ebay pictures. I wonder if he does this to all of his pieces. I hope when you return it and get your money back, you leave appropriate feedback.

 

[baby monster]

Is the seller Dover?

 

[patentgirl]

Update!

I sent a message to the seller via ebay last night, and got a phone call early this morning from the owner, who was very polite and offered to provide a GIA or EGL cert, hoping that would make me happy. I told him i'd really just rather return it at this point; I was a bit surprised when he said he had to call the consigner to see "what he could do." But when he called back a few hours later he simply said to ship the ring back to them.

I am at least happy with the response from the seller. They addressed my request very quickly and didn't give me a hard time about returning the item.

And yes, the seller is Dover.

 

[Gypsy]

Update!



And yes, the seller is Dover.

That explains it.

They use a dart board, near as I can tell, for stats. I bought a ring from them. It had the stats ENGRAVED INTO THE SHANK and they someone completely overlooked that and overquoted the stats in the listing. When I got the ring and saw that the stats were COMPLETELY inflated I called them up and they gave me an adjustment.

Another time I bought a necklace (long story). It was supposed to have seven pointers. They were three pointers. And believe me there is a HUGE difference between 3 pointers and 7 pointers. That one was returned.

You can't buy by the stats with Dover. Images only. But what they lack in well... any sort of accuracy what so ever they do make up for in customer service. They are ALWAYS nice.

 

[baby monster]

As Gypsy said, dover's descriptions are unreliable but they do take stuff back or do adjustments. That's why their feedback is so good. I purchased a few items from them and one was really misrepresented. I was able to return easily. Glad to see that OP is getting her money back with no issues.

 

[GemFever]

So glad for a good resolution!

 

[MissGotRocks]

Very glad they are going to take it back. Wonderful outcome!

 

[Harpertoo]

You can at least look at it as a positive learning experience!
I know I learned a lot just reading responses by Gypsey, Dreamer and the group.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Would you be able to return it if the GIA report was not to your satisfaction? I would be tempted to let them unset the diamond and send it to GIA for you -- then you would know what you are buying! Provided, or course, that you have a return in place if you are not happy with the report. You could negotiate in advance what acceptable specs would be to you, and negotiate after for a price change if you wanted to. Not to throw a monkey wrench into things, I mean, its safer just to return it... but IF the seller is willing to unset it and get a report that takes most of the risk/guessing out of the purchase. Just more food for thought.

 

[alma123]

I was looking at another diamond ring from Dover but found several red flags from their listing
- they listed several diamond rings with the same description on clarity (inclusions to the side not visible to naked eye)
- they said SI clarity without mentioning SI1 or SI2... since to me most SI1 is eye clean while most SI2 is not eye clean. Who sells such a large expensive item without clear detail? I assumed SI2 and not eye-clean.
- their photos are unreliable due to the photoshopping
+ however, they are a power seller with numerous positive feedback; I looked at their neutral and found the buyer had no issues returning so I believe they were flexible with their "no returns" policy

They had another listing with a great price (if the description was accurate). Since I didn't want to pay $?K to play "what does the diamond really look like" I passed on their auction; I'm glad my gut instinct was right.

I think risk-taking can lead to good things or bad things (mainly I believe bad things are much more likely than good things) -- risks are may be acceptable but only calculated risks (not blind risks).

Also nowadays, I rarely find "deals" with eBay auctions, especially with a well known vendor like Dover. Better to throw in a low-ball offer and hope the seller accept (ie Buy it now with best offer listings).

Good luck with your search!

 

[patentgirl]

Would you be able to return it if the GIA report was not to your satisfaction? I would be tempted to let them unset the diamond and send it to GIA for you -- then you would know what you are buying! Provided, or course, that you have a return in place if you are not happy with the report. You could negotiate in advance what acceptable specs would be to you, and negotiate after for a price change if you wanted to. Not to throw a monkey wrench into things, I mean, its safer just to return it... but IF the seller is willing to unset it and get a report that takes most of the risk/guessing out of the purchase. Just more food for thought.

Dreamer, i thought about this, but in the end I wouldn't be happy with the appearance of scratches caused by the needles, and that's not something that could be changed.

It will be interesting to see if Dover posts this ring again with the same exact photos & specs as was listed in mine.

 

[ruby59]

Do not mean to hijack, but have seen Dreamer post this twice. Maybe she will explain in another thread or maybe I missed it. I saw your thread that you did not send "George" to be graded at EGL because of the designation it wanted to use, so you were going to let it go. When did you find out your 1.89 OEC was SI2, K/L? Has that soured your experience with ebay? Is it worth even looking on there anymore?