My "Forever" Diamond Search --Questions about Fire/Scintillation

[RunningwithScissors]

Hello,

In about six months time, my husband and I will be purchasing a new engagement ring. We've been married for 14 years and while I love my husband to the moon and back, I've always disliked my original ring. I'm a serious diamond lover, so this fact has been a bummer! My hubby and I are now thrilled to be looking for my "Forever" diamond ring!

I've been approaching my diamond education in two ways: 1) trying on many rings at higher-end jewelry stores to get a feel for what I like (approximate size/color/shape/setting) and 2) reading all I can about diamonds - I've been lurking on this site.

So apologies in advance, I'm going to be asking lots of questions in the coming months!

First Question:
I understand Brilliance and Fire on an intellectual level (I think), but how do I hone my ability to know exactly what I'm looking at (brilliance or fire or scintillation) when I see a diamond in person? I want to know which trait I prefer since it seems there are trade offs between brilliance/fire. I've tried on about 30 rings in a narrow range (size/shape/quality) from different high end jewelers and only one diamond had a certain amazing intensity that took my breath away. It had incredible, intense, bold sparkles and I want to understand what it was about that diamond that made it stand out to me. I'm thinking it was scintillation. But is scintillation considered fire or brilliance? Or a magical combo of them both? Unfortunately, I didn't get the all the stats on the diamond so I don't have its exact measurements to list for you guys. I guess I could call the jewelry store and see if they could tell me, however they sold the ring soon after I saw it. I remember it being about 2.4 c, G color, VS1, XXX which actually was lower priced and "lower" color/clarity than the other rings at the same store, but this diamond looked night and day more sparkly. (Side note: I'm not going to be buying a ring from this particular jewelry chain because of their giant markup. I'm going to be finding my own diamond through one of your recommended vendors that specialize in super ideal cuts. However, this jewelry store has a nice selection of classic styles in the right size and fairly good quality for me to try on.)

Second Question:
I've read many different posts talking about Super Ideal cut diamonds. I'm interested in this and think I have the budget for it. I've seen people list lots of different companies and their top of the line cut names. Can you guys list them for me again here and tell me your favorites? Some of the posts I've read have been from many years ago -- I can't tell if the favorites from back then are still considered the top ones now. Also, sometimes I get lost with all the abbreviations. I have looked at (online) WF and BGD and I'm okay with their prices.

Here's the type of diamond I'm looking for: round brilliant; 2.4 - 2.75 carats; the best cut I can find (super ideal?) I want the most "sparkle" I can find; G color or higher (I'm very color sensitive and my skin is very pale, so warmer than a G looks bad on me to my eye); the clarity I'm flexible on, but not lower than VS2 -- I may not be able to see the inclusions, but they would bother me anyway; I'm thinking that I prefer no fluorescence but of course I could change my mind if I find one I love. The setting will be either a classic solitaire or have tapered baguettes.

Thanks!

 

[sledge]

In regards to your first question -- I'd call the store of the diamond that wowed you and explain your situation. Perhaps they can get you a copy of the specifications on that diamond. What made you get excited was the CUT of the stone, not the color or clarity. Whatever combination of angles, etc that stone had spoke to you. Knowing those angles would be key to finding a stone YOU consider to be "the one".

You talk if you want a very firey stone. I'd recommend the following:

• Table could range from 54-57, but small tables = lots of fire so I'd prefer 54-55 if possible.
• Depth at 62% or less
• For bolder flashes I'd prefer the following crown/pavilion angle combos: 34.5/40.8, 34.5/40.7, 35/40.6 or maybe a well cut 35.5/40.6. Something with 15-16% crown height.
• On lower girdle facets (LGF's) I'd stick 75-77 max. Not only do you get fatter arrows which many like, but they provide bolder & bigger flashes of light vs pin type return of the 80 LGF's.
• GIA or AGS certified only

Please note these preferences are tighter than the normal "ideal" cut stone ranges we recommend. I'm trying to narrow them down to give you a personality I think you are seeking. Opening the preferences up would still result in a beautiful stone but may have a slightly different personality.

Onto question 2 -- I highly recommend any of the following:

• WhiteFlash = WF
• Brian Gavin Diamonds = BGD
• Crafted by Infinity / High Performance Diamonds = CBI/HPD
• Victor Canera = VC

 

[Karl_K]

Unless your viewing them all under the same lighting its not exactly apples to apples.
Lighting and the environment around the diamond make a big difference in diamond appearance.
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...hing-you-need-to-know-about-a-diamond.248492/

 

[lydial]

If you look around the boards you will find many happy customers who have bought Crafted by Infinity super ideal diamonds from High Performance Diamonds. I am one of these happy customers! But my ring is coming in 2 days...

The super ideals get you a lot better optics so you can possibly spend less..such as this:
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD10432

...Instead of this:
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD10403

Granted the second is an amazing diamond... just 60k...
HPD is having a get together in Idaho this summer... you could go and look at the vault and other customers’ goodies!!!

 

[lovedogs]

I cannot recommend CBI stones enough, they are amazing! I had one custom cut for me and am completely thrilled with it. I wouldn't hesitate to buy anything from CBI that was in budget. Especially since they guarantee that their stones are eye clean, I'd be fine with any clarity (of course you need to be comfortable with it!) And same with color

 

[cflutist]

Here is some more information on fire and dispersion.
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/education/education-crafting

I am the proud owner of 5 CBI diamonds myself. They are cut to 3D perfection imo.

 

[Gracielouwho]

In regards to your first question -- I'd call the store of the diamond that wowed you and explain your situation. Perhaps they can get you a copy of the specifications on that diamond. What made you get excited was the CUT of the stone, not the color or clarity. Whatever combination of angles, etc that stone had spoke to you. Knowing those angles would be key to finding a stone YOU consider to be "the one".

You talk if you want a very firey stone. I'd recommend the following:

• Table could range from 54-57, but small tables = lots of fire so I'd prefer 54-55 if possible.
• Depth at 62% or less
• For bolder flashes I'd prefer the following crown/pavilion angle combos: 34.5/40.8, 34.5/40.7, 35/40.6 or maybe a well cut 35.5/40.6. Something with 15-16% crown height.
• On lower girdle facets (LGF's) I'd stick 75-77 max. Not only do you get fatter arrows which many like, but they provide bolder & bigger flashes of light vs pin type return of the 80 LGF's.
• GIA or AGS certified only

Please note these preferences are tighter than the normal "ideal" cut stone ranges we recommend. I'm trying to narrow them down to give you a personality I think you are seeking. Opening the preferences up would still result in a beautiful stone but may have a slightly different personality.

Onto question 2 -- I highly recommend any of the following:

• WhiteFlash = WF
• Brian Gavin Diamonds = BGD
• Crafted by Infinity / High Performance Diamonds = CBI/HPD
• Victor Canera = VC

I am very new and also learning so I hope you dont mind me chiming in with a question. @sledge would the same general rule of thumb follow in finding an OEC with some fire or are there different parameters for that?

 

[lovedogs]

I am very new and also learning so I hope you dont mind me chiming in with a question. @sledge would the same general rule of thumb follow in finding an OEC with some fire or are there different parameters for that?

Not at all!!! Oecs are totally different, and there aren't clear rules for them the way we have for RB stones. OECs you have to see them in video and make a judgement call about them. Buying from reputable places is invaluable. I would start a new thread asking

 

[Bron357]

Just remember to check out your proposed diamond in ordinary lighting conditions ie natural daylight.
Jewellery stores spend literally thousands of dollars on specialized lighting to make their wares look exceptional.

 

[sledge]

@Karl_K and @Bron357 hit the nail on the head about lighting and the environment. It matters greatly.

Jewelers are well known for investing loads of cash into lighting so all their stones look great in the store. The real tests are in normal lighting and conditions which most closely emulate your normal environments.

Even small things like standing between two lights vs directly under a single light or the vertical distance (stand vs sit) from lighting, or the angle/tilt/rotate of the stone on your hand. Also left hand vs right hand as that changes the relationship of the stone to the lighting.

The major benefit to getting an ideal cut stone with precision faceting is it maximizes the light return performance of whatever light source you feed it. Poorly cut stones require better lighting as once light enters the diamond it bounces around and exits the stone. Where it exits is the trick.

Notice how the cut effects not only fire, but brilliance too. And how the proportions (shallow, ideal or deep) also effect the size of the stone.



Also earlier I noted small tables make big fire. This is because as the table shrinks in size, the upper girdle facets increase in size, which is where rainbow light (fire) is produced. This diagram gives a good visual explanation.

 

[Lula]

It's less about specific combinations of numbers and more about how the numbers work together. Even if you could find out what the numbers were on the diamond you liked, there is no guarentee that another diamond cut to those same numbers/proportions would demonstrate the exact same pattern of fire/scintillation. Each diamond has its own personality. There are broad categories, yes -- FIC, TIC, BIC, OEC, OMC come to mind -- but within those categories, there is plenty of visual and performance variation from stone to stone. That's why many of us are loyal to specific brands -- we appreciate the brand's dedication to consistency from stone to stone. You may have come across this thread in your research -- an oldie but goodie
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/lgf-and-stars.36793/

 

[John P]

Also earlier I noted small tables make big fire. This is because as the table shrinks in size, the upper girdle facets increase in size, which is where rainbow light (fire) is produced. This diagram gives a good visual explanation.

Small correction, just for the record.

Both of the below are AGS 0-1 candidates. Which has more 2D fire potential?

Diamond A: Smaller table (53%) but lower crown and narrower pavilion mains.


Diamond B: Larger table (58%) but higher crown and wider pavilion mains.

It's less about specific combinations of numbers and more about how the numbers work together.

Precisely. Even for the simple 2D advice given on Pricescope, scientific fundamentals still apply. A human sees "fire" when the dispersive (rainbow) fans exiting the diamond's crown are large enough when they reach the eye that the pupil 'clips' only one color of that rainbow. Wider pavilion mains foster larger primary fans. Higher crowns provide more room for the fans to grow before exiting the diamond material. So, of the examples above, diamond B has more 2D fire potential despite its larger table.

I noticed that OEC was mentioned and must add; for old world and transitional beauties it's even more critical to gather and consider all measurements together. Not any one facet by itself.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[Karl_K]

You can't talk about fire without talking about light.
Some lighting is more conductive to fire than others.
Some combinations are less prone to showing fire across a wide range of lighting but could blow another away in lighting highly conductive to fire.
Lighting is always going to be your biggest variable for fire.

 

[John P]

You can't talk about fire without talking about light.
Some lighting is more conductive to fire than others. Some combinations are less prone to showing fire across a wide range of lighting but could blow another away in lighting highly conductive to fire.
Lighting is always going to be your biggest variable for fire.

True. A 0.25 carat Leo and a perfectly cut 3.00 OEC produce exactly the same fire in a dark closet.

(just pulling your tail)

 

[Karl_K]

I do not like this chart because you would have to go down to at least a 37.5 degree pavilion to get that effect with the shallow stone.
In the real world shallow stones you are likely to run across have issues with obstruction not leakage.
The real world deep stones are going to have over steep lowers.
https://www.pricescope.com/articles/do_pavilion_mains_drive_light_return_modern_round_brilliant
They look more like this:

 

[Karl_K]

True. A 0.25 carat Leo and a perfectly cut 3.00 OEC produce exactly the same fire in a dark closet.

(just pulling your tail)

You stole my line!!! rofl!!!

 

[RunningwithScissors]

Thank you all very much. I appreciate everyone's time and insights.

Because I am still 6 months out from when I plan to make a commitment to a particular stone/company my goal now is to figure out what my personal preference is for a diamond's "personality" (as Sledge referred to it), especially regarding how the cut looks (for example, do I prefer more fire or brilliance etc)

I would very much like to see the CBI, WF and BGD super ideals.

I am in the same city as WF and BGD. I guess my next step should be to make appointments at those two places and see what their diamonds look like, to get a feel for their general personalities.

Where is the best place to look at the CBIs (more than just one or two)? Idaho? If I were to buy a CBI I'd prefer to buy it from the "mother ship" instead of a local distributor. I see there is going to be an open house at their vault this summer, but I'm going to be abroad, so not able to attend.

Thank you.

 

[lovedogs]

Thank you all very much. I appreciate everyone's time and insights.

Because I am still 6 months out from when I plan to make a commitment to a particular stone/company my goal now is to figure out what my personal preference is for a diamond's "personality" (as Sledge referred to it), especially regarding how the cut looks (for example, do I prefer more fire or brilliance etc)

I would very much like to see the CBI, WF and BGD super ideals.

I am in the same city as WF and BGD. I guess my next step should be to make appointments at those two places and see what their diamonds look like, to get a feel for their general personalities.

Where is the best place to look at the CBIs (more than just one or two)? Idaho? If I were to buy a CBI I'd prefer to buy it from the "mother ship" instead of a local distributor. I see there is going to be an open house at their vault this summer, but I'm going to be abroad, so not able to attend.

Thank you.

Oooh yay, appts at Whiteflash and BG should be lovely. That way you can see different "flavors" of stones for yourself. In terms of CBI, the best place to see lots of them would be at HPD in Idaho. @Wink is super nice, and I'm sure he would be happy to show you lots of lovely choices even if you aren't at the get together over summer. I would just plan a time to go there and enjoy the sparkles

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I understand Brilliance and Fire on an intellectual level (I think), but how do I hone my ability to know exactly what I'm looking at (brilliance or fire or scintillation) when I see a diamond in person? I want to know which trait I prefer since it seems there are trade offs between brilliance/fire. I've tried on about 30 rings in a narrow range (size/shape/quality) from different high end jewelers and only one diamond had a certain amazing intensity that took my breath away. It had incredible, intense, bold sparkles and I want to understand what it was about that diamond that made it stand out to me. I'm thinking it was scintillation. But is scintillation considered fire or brilliance? Or a magical combo of them both?
Thanks!

Scintillation is the dynamic effect of facets blinking on and off in rapid succession as the diamond, observer, or light source are in motion. Different facet arrangements and different levels of faceting precision impact the scintillation patterns you see. Both white sparkles and colored sparkles (fire) participate in this effect.

The observation of colored sparkles is significantly affected by the lighting environment. But the potential for fire is mainly controlled by cut quality.

The on-off patterns and rates can be small and fast or big and slow depending on how the diamond is cut, or a mix of both. The patterns can be highly symmetrical with precision cutting or more chaotic with lower levels of craftsmanship.

It is interesting to note that AGS Laboratories, a leader in light performance cut grading, does not actually grade scintillation. Although there is a possibility that they one day may grade this trait, they consider it too much of a 'taste' factor at this point to issue a qualitative grade. They do however measure and grade the necessary components that are the building blocks of scintillation - brightness, and structured contrast - through a range of tilt angles. A grade of Ideal is indicative that the diamond has the potential to have outstanding scintillation.

 

[Lula]

Oooh yay, appts at Whiteflash and BG should be lovely. That way you can see different "flavors" of stones for yourself. In terms of CBI, the best place to see lots of them would be at HPD in Idaho. @Wink is super nice, and I'm sure he would be happy to show you lots of lovely choices even if you aren't at the get together over summer. I would just plan a time to go there and enjoy the sparkles

High Performance Diamonds (HPD) has a "See it to believe it program" that will allow you to see one or more CBIs in your city. Contact Wink for details. There may also be a "Meet the Cutter" event in your area in the upcoming months. @John Pollard may have information about the 2019 Meet the Cutter events. I've attended two (one in Chicago and one in Seattle); they are educational, fun, and you'll be able to view many CBIs at one of those events, along with the opportunity to meet Paul Slegers and/or John Pollard in person.

 

[RunningwithScissors]

Scintillation is the dynamic effect of facets blinking on and off in rapid succession as the diamond, observer, or light source are in motion. Different facet arrangements and different levels of faceting precision impact the scintillation patterns you see. Both white sparkles and colored sparkles (fire) participate in this effect.

The observation of colored sparkles is significantly affected by the lighting environment. But the potential for fire is mainly controlled by cut quality.

The on-off patterns and rates can be small and fast or big and slow depending on how the diamond is cut, or a mix of both. The patterns can be highly symmetrical with precision cutting or more chaotic with lower levels of craftsmanship.

It is interesting to note that AGS Laboratories, a leader in light performance cut grading, does not actually grade scintillation. Although there is a possibility that they one day may grade this trait, they consider it too much of a 'taste' factor at this point to issue a qualitative grade. They do however measure and grade the necessary components that are the building blocks of scintillation - brightness, and structured contrast - through a range of tilt angles. A grade of Ideal is indicative that the diamond has the potential to have outstanding scintillation.

Thank you. This is the clearest explanation I've seen for a newbie like myself to understand. I'm looking forward to seeing your diamonds in person in the near future.

 

[Gracielouwho]

Not at all!!! Oecs are totally different, and there aren't clear rules for them the way we have for RB stones. OECs you have to see them in video and make a judgement call about them. Buying from reputable places is invaluable. I would start a new thread asking

Thank you!

 

[Big Fat Facets]

Hi running with scissors!
how's your search coming along?? Im in a similar situation. I technically have until december but hope to avoid the holiday madness. hope your journey is fun and fruitful one!!

 

[MMtwo]

Hi @RunningwithScissors ...can't wait to see the diamond! I saw your post it's home today!

 

[RunningwithScissors]

Thanks @moneymeister and @Big Fat Facets! Photos and story coming soon!!!