My crimson red spinel- Please help!...any gem experts out there?

[allanc]

I recently bought this beautiful red spinel on ebay for $400, (I know...buyer beware), it's a 2.5 carat, has a most beautiful crimson red and has excellent brilliancy. The problem is it was sold to me as an SI1. When I received it I noticed it had a large feather inclusion in the center of the stone, perpendicular to the table. There are minor feathers on the sides as well, a few small chips on the pavilion and one on the girdle. The main problem is the single large feather, it cuts the surface at the table, the crown, and throughout the pavilion. It is discontinuous at points on the surface, but resumes a general pattern along the entire surface of the stone. Other than these feathers, the stone is reasonably clean and sparkles and would look gorgeous set in a ring.

Recently I contacted a knowledgeable seller on Ebay who sells high end stones from New York. He and his family have been in the business for years. He informed me from the photos I sent that the stone was essentially worthless because of the durability problems which might arise because of the large feather. He said perhaps the stone might be worth upwards of $2000 if it was VVS clean.

I always thought that the red color and brilliancy were the prime determinants of the price of a spinel, and perhaps I'm stubborn and refuse to accept his verdict, but is he right? Does this spinel "belong in a fishtank" as he says. Does it have any value? I can still return it to the seller who sold it to me.

Here are the photos

 

[allanc]

And here''s the side view

 

[allanc]

And here''s the view of the pavilion. Notice that on the face on view (top above) the seller must have doctored the photo of the reflected light on the table to hide the feather breaking the surface of the table. But it is there.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

It''s certainly a beautiful color.

You probably got what you paid for, possibly better. "Worthless" seems like a pretty harsh criticism, and I would take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Harriet]

Richard, would you mind commenting on its durability? I'd like to pick your brain.

 

[colormyworld]

Let me start by saying how beautiful the stone looks in the pictures. Are these pics yours and does the stone look as good in real life?

Often a competitor will talk down a purchase from another seller. Can you take the spinel to an independant gemologist for a second opinion?

 

[Harriet]

The colour is beautiful. I'm on a quest for that red myself.

allanc, I believe I know the dealer you contacted. He's by no means a pushy seller. In fact, he had glowing reviews of stones I have from a competitor.

colormyworld, how much would a stone have to cost to warrant engaging a gemologist? I've beentrying to determine that myself.

 

[colormyworld]

I really don't have an easy answer for that question Harriet. I have bought some stones that would often sell for much more than I have paid. So I get them checked to make sure it is what it was sold as. In my situation a friend is a gemologist. This makes it pretty easy to do such things. We don't often exchange money, more often we trade services.

In allancs case I would have to get that spinel checked for durablity as it could be pretty valuable with the color I see on my moniter. Even with the inclusions, color like that just does not come along very often!!!

I guess to answer your question, the amount of money I have spent is not as important as what I think it may be worth.
The bigger the difference the more likely I am to have a gemologist look at a stone.

Unless I am concerned about a durablity issue.

I don't know if this helps but ...

Ps As an after thought I just had to add. Please make sure you deal with a gemologist who is up to speed on colored stones. A lot of jewelers and some "gemologist " are so used to looking at nothing but diamonds and will poo poo anything else as not worthy.
For a very valuable stone I would send to AGTA.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 10/13/2007 11:02:29 PM
Author: Harriet
Richard, would you mind commenting on its durability? I'd like to pick your brain.

The price is, of course, determined largely by the feather and its related durability issues. Otherwise with that color it would bring far more on the market.

As the photos don't show the extent of the feather, it's tough to form an opinion regarding it. But my guess would be that on a scale of None, Minor, Moderate, Noticeable, and Severe that the feather probably has a Noticeable effect on the durability of the stone.

This can be somewhat compensated for by a good setter, and I am a big fan of stones with premium color that can be bought for a bargain because of the clarity, as long as it is not blatantly obvious (ugly) to the eye. I don't mind taking a noticeable chance on durability in exchange for dynamite color at a bargain price.

On the other hand, if the feather smacks you in the forehead every time you look at it, it might not be worth keeping even with that dynamite color. It would continually bug you.

 

[Harriet]

colormyworld, it helps. Thanks. Unfortunately, I don't have services to trade, at least of the type that would interest an individual. I've been drooling over your spinel collection and would be grateful if you'd lend me a hand in assembling my own.

Richard, thanks for the lesson.

allanc, my apologies for the threadjack.

 

[colormyworld]

Thank you Harriet. If I can help I will be more than happy to do so.

If you are starting a collection getting to know a gemologist can only help.

 

[allanc]

Richard, Harriet and Colormyword, thank you so much for all your helpful commentaries. It''s somewhat a relief to hear there may still be hope for this stone.

I did bring it in to a jeweller who sets stones (not a gemologist). He stated it could possibly be set in a ring, but he would give no guarantees. He recommended against a six prong setting however as I had wanted extra protection against possible breakage. He told me the more prongs needed to set, the more pressure on the stone when setting and the greater chance of breakage during setting.

In answer to one of your questions, yes the color is accurate and it displays this crimson hue even under fluorescent lighting or daylight. In incandescent or halogen lighting, the spinel jumps to life and looks almost like a red traffic light. Wether it''s an 8 9 or 10 would depend on a gem experts expertise I guess. The photos I provided were the ebay seller''s photos. They are accurate as to color. As I stated before, the fissure or "crack" where the feather breaks the surface should be easily visible on the table in the first photo, but I believe the seller touched up that photo to hide it. Looking at it with 10x loupe, the feather seems almost to cut the stone in half.

Oh by the way, when I contacted the seller who sold it to me and expressed my concern with the feather, he stated that if the stone survived the facetting and polishing process, it also could probably survive the mounting. Again I still don''t know what to make of that.

 

[Harriet]

allanc, I'm glad to have been of help in my small way. One suggestion: If the dealer has access to benchmen, can you have him assume the risk of setting? Separately, should you choose to return this stone, there is a beautiful red cushion of similar weight (I think you've already located it). I passed on it only because it's too small for me.

colormyworld, please keep me apprised of any good finds that you don't want. I bought matched rounds of a lovely cotton candy-pink last week. I'll post photos when I can.

 

[LembeckGems]

em that has an inclusion that breaks the surface of the stone, one that cannot be removed by re-cutting and especially when it comes to the table
or crown of the stone, that gem is essentially valueless. And it has nothing to do with stability. An irreparable inclusion coming to the top surface of the stone has no
re-sale value in the wholesale gem market if the stone cannot be re-cut at cost effectively to produce a gem minus the surface inclusion.

I make this statement based upon nearly 40 years in the gem trading business. No dealer on 47th Street that I know of would be interested in buying such a stone
AT ANY PRICE. I myself have never bought such a stone. Why? Because it has no possibility of re-sale. That is why, Judy from Inter-Ocean made the wise crack
that such a stone belongs in her fish tank. In fact just for kicks not only did I ask Judy her opinion I asked I asked Amazon Joe D, Robert K, and Steve S.
Worthless. Over 100 years of gem dealing TO THE TRADE. I emphasize this to drive home the fact to those of us who are too stubborn to accept sound advice.


We have never, until the advent of the Internet, sold retail. As with any wholesaler we sell exclusively to dealers, small manufacturers and retail jewelry
establishments. Without the internet no one outside the trade would ever have heard of us (unless they looked up and spotted our name on the side of our building on
47th Street).


It is true that you have to have nerve and perhaps even be a bit of an S. O. B. to sell on 47th Street. But the idea of selling a stone with a huge inclusion breaking the
surface of the stone and that same stone having unnatural breaks or chips is foreign to me. That kind of nerve I do not have. It is beyond my ken that a legitimate
dealer would sell such a stone. In fact the mere presence of unnatural breaks indicates that the stone has no value or I expect that it would have been repaired.


As Harriet points out I call them as I see them. I am even reticent to be overly critical of gems purchased elsewhere as I am aware of the possibility owing to human
nature that to do so may only serve to cast myself in a bad light.


I do not have a gemological degree (but in my defense neither do 99.9% of dealers in the trade for that matter). I do not need a gg degree to trade in Spinels
effectively or understand that the Spinel described to me, no matter how gemmy, has no intrinsic re-sale value, except to an unsuspecting buyer.


Respectfully.


Steve Lembeck


Every Gem has A Destiny

 

[simplysplendid]

Allanc, the colour of the spinel is beautiful.. but are you trying to resell it or set it and enjoy it? If you are setting it and enjoying the ring, i think it does not really matter what the resale value is..?

 

[allanc]

Date: 10/14/2007 5:42:22 PM
Author: simplysplendid
Allanc, the colour of the spinel is beautiful.. but are you trying to resell it or set it and enjoy it? If you are setting it and enjoying the ring, i think it does not really matter what the resale value is..?

No, I don''t want to resell, but set it in a ring for my wife. She has a lovely 2.75 ct violetish blue sapphire set in a platinum gold 2 tone engagement setting, and she sometimes gets comments from people on how gorgeous it looks. If this spinel were similarly set, I''m sure it would get a lot of attention. But another reason I might want to keep it is that the spinel might a hold a good resale value if properly set, perhaps more than I paid for it.

 

[allanc]

Date: 10/14/2007 5:10:31 PM
Author: LembeckGems

When you have a gem that has an inclusion that breaks the surface of the stone, one that cannot be removed by re-cutting and especially when it comes to the table
or crown of the stone, that gem is essentially valueless. And it has nothing to do with stability. An irreparable inclusion coming to the top surface of the stone has no
re-sale value in the wholesale gem market if the stone cannot be re-cut at cost effectively to produce a gem minus the surface inclusion.




I make this statement based upon nearly 40 years in the gem trading business. No dealer on 47th Street that I know of would be interested in buying such a stone
AT ANY PRICE. I myself have never bought such a stone. Why? Because it has no possibility of re-sale. That is why, Judy from Inter-Ocean made the wise crack
that such a stone belongs in her fish tank. In fact just for kicks not only did I ask Judy her opinion I asked I asked Amazon Joe D, Robert K, and Steve S.
Worthless. Over 100 years of gem dealing TO THE TRADE. I emphasize this to drive home the fact to those of us who are too stubborn to accept sound advice.




We have never, until the advent of the Internet, sold retail. As with any wholesaler we sell exclusively to dealers, small manufacturers and retail jewelry
establishments. Without the internet no one outside the trade would ever have heard of us (unless they looked up and spotted our name on the side of our building on
47th Street).




It is true that you have to have nerve and perhaps even be a bit of an S. O. B. to sell on 47th Street. But the idea of selling a stone with a huge inclusion breaking the
surface of the stone and that same stone having unnatural breaks or chips is foreign to me. That kind of nerve I do not have. It is beyond my ken that a legitimate
dealer would sell such a stone. In fact the mere presence of unnatural breaks indicates that the stone has no value or I expect that it would have been repaired.




As Harriet points out I call them as I see them. I am even reticent to be overly critical of gems purchased elsewhere as I am aware of the possibility owing to human
nature that to do so may only serve to cast myself in a bad light.




I do not have a gemological degree (but in my defense neither do 99.9% of dealers in the trade for that matter). I do not need a gg degree to trade in Spinels
effectively or understand that the Spinel described to me, no matter how gemmy, has no intrinsic re-sale value, except to an unsuspecting buyer.




Respectfully.




Steve Lembeck




Every Gem has A Destiny

Steve, I apologize sincerely. The statement "belongs in a fishtank, as he says", was meant only to paraphrase what you thought of my spinel, but you actually never said that. This statement by your friend was in jest I''m sure and in no way should it be attributed to you. I will state for all that you especially treated my enquiry with respect and all due seriousness.

And perhaps you''re right, as I stated myself, sometimes we are basically stubborn and don''t want to admit we made mistakes but I hope you''ll understand that the intent of starting this thread was only to solicit other opinions in this complex colored gem marketplace. There are certainly other people who have different opinions as well as you can see, not that I attach any more importance to them either. Thank you for taking the time to defend your opinion. You are a credit to your trade.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 10/14/2007 5:10:31 PM
Author: LembeckGems
When you have a gem that has an inclusion that breaks the surface of the stone, one that cannot be removed by re-cutting and especially when it comes to the table

or crown of the stone, that gem is essentially valueless. And it has nothing to do with stability. An irreparable inclusion coming to the top surface of the stone has no

re-sale value in the wholesale gem market if the stone cannot be re-cut at cost effectively to produce a gem minus the surface inclusion.

I make this statement based upon nearly 40 years in the gem trading business. No dealer on 47th Street that I know of would be interested in buying such a stone

AT ANY PRICE. I myself have never bought such a stone. Why? Because it has no possibility of re-sale. That is why, Judy from Inter-Ocean made the wise crack

that such a stone belongs in her fish tank. In fact just for kicks not only did I ask Judy her opinion I asked I asked Amazon Joe D, Robert K, and Steve S.

Worthless. Over 100 years of gem dealing TO THE TRADE. I emphasize this to drive home the fact to those of us who are too stubborn to accept sound advice.

Hi Steve, nice to hear from you.

I have to say I totally disagree with your statement however. It is way too sweeping in its characterization, in my opinion. Beauty sells, and some consumers are willing to compromise clarity in a gemstone to obtain the size or color they would like and still stay within their budget. It may be a different market than you deal in, but it exists.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

As an example, would you consider a 4 carat natural unheated Burma ruby with premium color to be "valueless" if it had a surface breaking table inclusion?

 

[colormyworld]

I always wondered why fish tanks have so many bright green pebbles in them. lol

 

[Harriet]

Peridots?

 

[colormyworld]

Nah the other white meat Oh wait I mean green stone emerald.

 

[Harriet]

You mean green beryl? Did you see my baby emerald?

 

[colormyworld]

I do not recall seeing that thread Harriet.

allanac the color in that spinel is amazing but a ring may not be the best option if durablity is an issue. You may want to consider a pendant instead.

 

[Harriet]

Here: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-emerald.70019/ We''re attempting to match it.

 

[allanc]

Date: 10/14/2007 5:09:13 PM
Author: Harriet
allanc, I''m glad to have been of help in my small way. One suggestion: If the dealer has access to benchmen, can you have him assume the risk of setting? Separately, should you choose to return this stone, there is a beautiful red cushion of similar weight (I think you''ve already located it). I passed on it only because it''s too small for me.


colormyworld, please keep me apprised of any good finds that you don''t want. I bought matched rounds of a lovely cotton candy-pink last week. I''ll post photos when I can.

Thanks again Harriet. The dealer is in Thailand and with shipping and time constraints, as well possible warranty problems that would not be feasible. I would prefer to buy a setting here and set it locally.

If you mean that red spinel on one of Steve''s ebay auctions, it is gorgeous isn''t it? He also has a red 4 carat spinel that looks like a spinel to die for. According to him, slightly orangey red.

I''ve been debating Steve on the various spinel hues. He seems to think that red spinels with a pink hue drop substantially in value. But I''ve been reminding him that the pink tones are the undesirable attributes, not the pink hues (at full saturation). Richard Hughes and Vincent Pardieu have told us often that the reds with a slight pink hue (towards blue) or crimson is the ideal color. I won''t argue with that.

 

[allanc]

Date: 10/14/2007 10:19:04 PM
Author: colormyworld
I do not recall seeing that thread Harriet.


allanac the color in that spinel is amazing but a ring may not be the best option if durablity is an issue. You may want to consider a pendant instead.

Actually I was thinking along the same lines, but then I realized that a 2.5 ct stone (8.5 x 8.5) might be too small for a pendant. As well, I noticed that ring settings tend to attract more attention, especially if the stone has nice color. People usually notice the hands and the movements which brings out the sparkle in a nice stone. What do you think of my idea of a six prong engagement setting? It would be well protected in everyday use with such a setting.

 

[LembeckGems]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that Ruby is of no interest to me except as a paper weight if it cannot be re-cut. do I have to repeat myself a third time??

you can dissagree with me all you like. makes the world go round. no DEALER that I know will buy such a stone. who''s he going top sell it to? you I guess. But I wouldn''t sell it to you. I would be too emabarrassed to handle such a stone and get yelled at by my customer for trying to sell them crap.

If the stone can''t be re-cut, it''s worthless to me. I couldn''t sell it. If I can''t sell it it has no value. If I paid $1 then it was expensive.

and MY adivce to anyone that wan''ts to listen which in the retail arena is very few is do not buy stones withe brekas to the surface. if you have your heart set on such a stone pay PENNIES for it.

 

[colormyworld]

I think Richard was just stating the obvious about there being a market for such things.
Excluding color and cutting what is your opinion of the color as shown in the pic.? How easy would it be to find something along those lines.

I like that emerald Harriet.

Allanc I would be worried about any little knock that stone may receive with the same movment of her hands. May not be a problem but if it were me I could not but help but be concerned. I would love to see some pictures you have taken when you get the stone.

 

[allanc]

Colormyworld, you could hit it against a wall and I believe no substantial impact would be imparted to the stone through the claws provided they are sturdy enough. But hitting it against a hard sharp edged object might directly impact the stone itself, hence the reason for having six claws in order to minimize direct contact.