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More advanced knowledge and help needed

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teobdl

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
May 8, 2013
Messages
986
Hi Friends, please help me think about the following diamonds. I've selected these three because, above all, I'm looking for a mostly balanced diamond but with a greater propensity for fire than most are used to recommending here. I've listed the HCA scores below, but I'm hoping for a bit more nuance than simply eliminating all above 2.0.

Diamond A
GIA Ex
I color; eye clean. primary inclusions = twinning wisps
40.6/35.5
T: 59
D: 61.1
S: 50
LGF: 80
HCA 1.8. Not loving the larger table. Crown facets want to be fiery, but the larger table reduces their size and possibly decreases fire.

Diamond B
AGS 0
I color; possibly eye clean. primary inclusions= twinning wisps and a feather
40.9/35.8
T: 58
D: 61.8
S: 52
LGF: 78
Terrible HCA--4.1, but AGS 0. If it's cut perfectly within those proportions (as AGS 0 suggests), though, what will this diamond look like? I am assuming fiery upper facets with a more illuminated center and lesser contrast. Figs 23, 27, and 28 http://www.agslab.com/spie/spie_lo_res.pdf

Diamond C
H color; eye clean. primary inclusions= twinning wisps
GIA Ex
40.8/35.5
T: 56
D: 62.4
S: 50
LGF: 80
HCA 2.6
I like the H color. Will certainly be fiery. Because of GIA rounding, though, it's tough to really make a more educated guess about this diamond using HCA w/o the idealscope. It just barely misses the AGS 2d Ideal grade, but it's tough to know, again, because of rounding (PA could be between 40.71--great, or 40.89--not great). Idealscope is key for this one. Will post if/when I get it.
 
Gotta see idealscope images for all three. Even AGS 0 needs them.

I wouldn't worry too much about buying a diamond for fire. You are just not in lighting that produces fire all that much. You are in the lighting inside your home and work most of all. That is where the diamond needs to look good. And in that case, I am fine with most diamonds in the ideal cut range, but I want to see idealscope images before spending thousands of dollars.
 
Hi Teo,

Forgive me if you have already posted this info, but what are your desired specs, carat weight and so on please? I will come back and take a more detailed look at your selections when I can, but if DS has taken a look and said IS next step, that's the way to go, she knows her stuff! I would have a little time to hunt around for you later on if you would like to try to find some stones with proportions that could lend themselves to showing some extra fire if the lighting is right. But as DS rightfully states, you will see fire when the lighting is conducive, not all the time, and well cut stones will show a nice mix of fire, brilliance and scintillation anyway.
 
DS and Lorelei :wavey: ! Thank you for your expertise!

I totally agree that lighting and positioning (e.g. distance, angle) needs to be right for fire. I was part of an extended and very informative discussion about this w/ Paul, Garry, and Sergey about this last year [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/which-is-more-important-fire-or-brightness.190743/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/which-is-more-important-fire-or-brightness.190743/[/URL] . Excuse my ignorance in that thread--I was still quite a newb and an overeager student...

That said, I am absolutely interested in finding more diamonds a bit more conducive to fire in the right situations. The ones I listed were the closest I found that fit the bill and the specs.

Desired specs:
H or high I... yellow as undetectable as possible. I am not okay with J.
1.15+, pref >1.2 (at least 6.8mm)
Eye clean SI2 and above
CA at least 34.5
Max PA = 40.9
Does not have to be superideal H&A but close to it is great.
LGFs Prefer table ~55, but I'm okay to go up to ~59 if necessary so long as it works w/ the other proportions

Absolute max price $6750. Prefer closer to $6500. The three diamonds I listed above are pretty much in this range. I only searched inventory that I could see, because otherwise I'd need to stick to VS2+, which bumps up the price significantly.

I'll def post the IS's when I receive them.
 
How do you feel about flouro? if it's okay, you can get something a little bigger, lol.
 
I think you will struggle at this budget for 1.20 for the specifications you want...
 
Proto--I agree that it's difficult to find them... in fact, the three that I listed were the only 3 I could find in any database that meet my criteria! PS is great because it gives you the tools to search beyond the automatic home runs and find diamonds in the rough, pun intended, that fit more precise specs at the lowest cost anywhere.

Lorelei-Thank you for the additional suggestion!

And just a general comment--
35.5 crown is a fine angle for 40.6-40.8. In fact, some cutters specifically target it (just as our PS vendors tend to target 34.5). A large proportion of people actually prefer a higher crown in random sampling. That said, there is much less tolerance for mess ups with these proportions, so it's critical that I get a good read on these diamonds' IS's.

What I'm really wondering now is how will I know the diamonds I've selected don't totally suck without seeing them myself? What are some red flags to look for with these proportions in the reflector images? Is it just the standard IS review for leakage, symmetry, and minor facet tweaks (painting/digging)? I think the last will be particularly important in these cases.

The GG will provide some standard general comments (brightness, fire, eye cleanlieness, etc). Are there additional questions I should ask that are more specific to these proportions? E.g. if painting/digging is present (especially in the AGS 0 stone), how does it impact the brightness?
 
I think with focusing on fire you might be trying to further split hairs that have already been split...

I got a 35.5 crown for a 40.8, which technically puts it out of ideal range but supposedly would be more fiery. Honestly side by side with similar specs (e.g. 35) there was no perceptible difference. To me anyhow it wasn't more fiery, to experts maybe there would be.

Considering your strict budget I think you should consider relaxing your specs. I thought the whole point was to go bigger? Also, you can't view these stones side by side in person, so if you find the 'the one' that matches your specs and you view it in person and think 'that's great'... you won't really know if it truely has more fire than several other stones.

In person looking at stones, can you notice more fire with higher crown angles when comparing side by side with otherwise similar stones? More importantly, does your woman and does she want more fire? I think you should go for an all around excellent cut for as big as you can go for this upgrade.
 
teobdl|1400509739|3675972 said:
Lorelei-Thank you for the additional suggestion!

What I'm really wondering now is how will I know the diamonds I've selected don't totally suck without seeing them myself? What are some red flags to look for with these proportions in the reflector images? Is it just the standard IS review for leakage, symmetry, and minor facet tweaks (painting/digging)? I think the last will be particularly important in these cases.

Get ASET images if you can, if you really want to analyse any brillianteering then the images will help if you want to delve that far in and you are really interested in this stuff, in my experience the majority aren't but some really enjoy going much further into the realms of brillianteering and so forth.

The GG will provide some standard general comments (brightness, fire, eye cleanlieness, etc). Are there additional questions I should ask that are more specific to these proportions? E.g. if painting/digging is present (especially in the AGS 0 stone), how does it impact the brightness?
Click to expand...

If I am remembering correctly, if any brillianteering done on an AGS graded diamond negatively impacted the light return, it would be downgraded to the best of my remembered knowledge, but this is among the many things I am working hard at trying to catch up on. A GG that takes a strong interest in diamond cut and optics would be able to advise you if any brillianteering was altering or otherwise affecting any component of that particular diamond's visual performance. I am a bit out of the loop with more recent developments with such matters as painting/digging but I hope to be back up to speed soon, meanwhile, I hope the above thoughts are helpful.
 
I reserved the diamonds, so I'm posting them now:

Diamond A: http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.25-carat-i-color-si2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-283870 -- are twinning wisps making this cloudy?
Diamond B: http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.25-carat-i-color-si2-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-282034 -- gemologist says not as eye clean as I'm wanting
Diamond C: http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.23-carat-h-color-si2-clarity-sku-315061 -- I'd prefer this H color and I like this table size.

I'm looking for a replacement of Diamond B for the gemologist to pull and review along w/ the other two. The JA inventory doesn't have much else that fits PS ideal specs that is also eye clean. I'd consider going down very slightly in size to about 6.7mm in the gemologist's head to head. Any help is much appreciated.
 
teobdl|1400427475|3675486 said:
I've selected these three because, above all, I'm looking for a mostly balanced diamond but with a greater propensity for fire than most are used to recommending here. I've listed the HCA scores below, but I'm hoping for a bit more nuance than simply eliminating all above 2.0.

Diamond A
GIA Ex
I color; eye clean. primary inclusions = twinning wisps
40.6/35.5
T: 59
D: 61.1
S: 50
LGF: 80
HCA 1.8. Not loving the larger table. Crown facets want to be fiery, but the larger table reduces their size and possibly decreases fire.

Diamond B
AGS 0
I color; possibly eye clean. primary inclusions= twinning wisps and a feather
40.9/35.8
T: 58
D: 61.8
S: 52
LGF: 78
Terrible HCA--4.1, but AGS 0. If it's cut perfectly within those proportions (as AGS 0 suggests), though, what will this diamond look like? I am assuming fiery upper facets with a more illuminated center and lesser contrast. Figs 23, 27, and 28 http://www.agslab.com/spie/spie_lo_res.pdf

Diamond C
H color; eye clean. primary inclusions= twinning wisps
GIA Ex
40.8/35.5
T: 56
D: 62.4
S: 50
LGF: 80
HCA 2.6
Click to expand...

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that 60/60 stones tend to give off more white light and less fire than those with smaller tables? :confused: :read: :wavey:
 
msop04 said:
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that 60/60 stones tend to give off more white light and less fire than those with smaller tables? :confused: :read: :wavey:
Click to expand...

I wouldn't call the Diamond B (the AGS one) 60/60. Diamond A is pretty close, though.

But yes, I agree on the confusion. I need some guidance on which impacts it to a greater degree--PA/CA or table.
 
Stone I just grabbed has almost identical proportion to #C, and same HCA of 2.6. Its stunning, but again I wouldn't say it has a greater propensity for fire in person than other stones. Mine is also a lower ct, but GIA XXX, and has a nice symmetric H&A (not official) pattern, that I can definitely appreciate with the naked eye.

I'm surprised you're even considering GIAs that are not XXX...
 
 
teobdl|1400548400|3676440 said:
VG sym and polish versus Ex sym and polish is not discernible to the naked eye

Symmetry info: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/gia-excellent-vs-very-good-symmetry.9060/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/gia-excellent-vs-very-good-symmetry.9060/[/URL] symmetry is not 3d symmetry
http://niceice.com/diamond-symmetry-grades/

Polish info: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/importance-of-polish-and-sym.131510/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/importance-of-polish-and-sym.131510/[/URL]
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/big-different-btw-excellent-very-good-polish-symmetry.143434/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/big-different-btw-excellent-very-good-polish-symmetry.143434/[/URL]
Click to expand...

Ya I already believe it. I guess though I still curious about the desire to aim for more fire when the basics aren't covered. And in the same vain as the above links are you actually going to perceive more fire with a tweaking of the proportions?

The other point I was trying to bring up (not sure if its an issue for you), is optical symmetry. I can perceive a symmetrical stone vs a chaotic one. And (question for anyone really), wouldn't a VG cut be more likely to be chaotic than an Ex cut?

Do what matches your preference obviously, I would just hope you aren't eliminating otherwise excellent cut stones that'll perform well all around.
 
FWIW, a couple of months ago I had a talk with WF CS to inquire about a more fiery ca/pa combo, basically I was told that it would not be truly visible to me. I really like the one Julie posted, quite a nice find! Not sure how you do it!
 
I received feedback and idealscopes.
All eye clean, and the gemologist really liked all 3 choices.

1st place per gemologist:
GIA Ex
I SI2
40.6/35.5
T: 59
D: 61.1
S: 50
LGF: 80
HCA 1.8
283870id_0.jpg
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.25-carat-i-color-si2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-283870
Comment: it's a whiter I color, almost an H. Strongest performer.

Next Best per gemologist:
H SI2
H color
GIA Ex
40.8/35.5
T: 56
D: 62.4
S: 50
LGF: 80
HCA 2.6
315061id.jpg
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.23-carat-h-color-si2-clarity-sku-315061
Comment: exceptionally bright and performs nearly as well as the top one, but twinning wisps keep is from being as bright as the top one. whitest of the 3.

3rd place per gemologist:
I SI1
40.8/34.0
T:57
D: 60.7
S: 55
LGF: 75
314682id.jpg
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.17-carat-i-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-314682
Comment: "third brightest, but still bright and lively". Note that this diamonds shows the best hearts (it's a JA "true hearts" diamonds), but it's GG's third choice of the three options.


My impressions
I'm torn about getting the whitest diamond vs the top performer if it's as close as the gemologist says. The twinning wisps affecting performance worries me.

What are your thoughts? Frankly, I was expecting the 3rd place to be 1st place. Most importantly, should I go w/ the GG's impressions?
 
If you've not already done so, teo, how about reducing JA's video images to "real life" size on your computer screen (or as close to actual size as you can get) & then watching several of the rotation cycles for each of the 3 stones; that might facilitate your decision making.
 
Once we are getting to this level of cut... while I'm sure their gemologist does perceive differences in brightness, I'm not sure how useful this information is to the consumer. It would be more useful to me why they perceive #3 to be less bright. Is it because it is the lowest color of the three? More head shadow/obstruction due to fatter arrows? Some issue of cut not detected by Ideal Scope?
 
The gemologist's personal preference might be different from yours. So I'll take it with a pinch of salt. I like the numbers of the newest diamond best. Why does the GG think that the newest stone is the 3rd brightest?
 
JulieN|1400805634|3678490 said:
Once we are getting to this level of cut... while I'm sure their gemologist does perceive differences in brightness, I'm not sure how useful this information is to the consumer. It would be more useful to me why they perceive #3 to be less bright. Is it because it is the lowest color of the three? More head shadow/obstruction due to fatter arrows? Some issue of cut not detected by Ideal Scope?
Click to expand...

My thoughts too, I would also be interested in the reasons why this stone is deemed to be the least bright of the three.
 
JulieN--absolutely agree. I asked the same questions. Just heard back from the SA. A few key points from the communication:
  • The gemologist didn't elaborate as to why one was brighter than the other
  • They all perform similarly and it was difficult to rank
  • Nothing beats seeing the diamonds in person
  • The gemologist who inspects the diamonds at JA does not capture the idealscope image, and never sees the idealscope images, so it's all based on what their eyes see [I think this is very good information to know]
  • Unplotted inclusions may be keeping it from being brightest, but it's just conjecture

Gah. I'm definitely torn here. My only hesitation in getting the I is color... I might have to run to Tiffany's and look at a few more H's vs I's in person.
 
teobdl|1400851331|3678722 said:
JulieN--absolutely agree. I asked the same questions. Just heard back from the SA. A few key points from the communication:
  • The gemologist didn't elaborate as to why one was brighter than the other
  • They all perform similarly and it was difficult to rank
  • Nothing beats seeing the diamonds in person
  • The gemologist who inspects the diamonds at JA does not capture the idealscope image, and never sees the idealscope images, so it's all based on what their eyes see [I think this is very good information to know]
  • Unplotted inclusions may be keeping it from being brightest, but it's just conjecture

Gah. I'm definitely torn here. My only hesitation in getting the I is color... I might have to run to Tiffany's and look at a few more H's vs I's in person.
Click to expand...



I think that would be a good exercise till you are torn no more. If you have a Hearts on Fire dealer near you, try there also.
 
Thanks for the encouragement. Might need to put a temporary block on all credit card transactions... :bigsmile:
 
teobdl|1400859115|3678806 said:
Thanks for the encouragement. Might need to put a temporary block on all credit card transactions... :bigsmile:
Click to expand...

:saint: <----
 
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