mom doesnt want me to marry FI...

[iLander]

Oh, my. I only read your original post, but here is my take on it:

When someone loves you, your happiness more important than their own.

Simple as that.

As for the cultural thing, that doesn't cut it. My DH is from NY and I'm from the south. For 27 years, he's been unselfish, giving and kind. His priority is me, and my priority is him. Been that way from day one, no instructions required.

That is how it's supposed to work.

As for your mother being dramatic, do you really pay attention if she isn't dramatic? Or do you blow her off? I hate it when my kids say I'm nagging, but if they did what I ask the First time I ask, I wouldn't have to ask again. Asking repeatedly makes me a nag. Essentially, it is their actions that are making me a nag. So, are you creating mom's drama by ignoring her when she speaks quietly?

But that's not the point.

Point is; time for a new guy. You can't change the basic core of someone, and selfishness is a core thing.

Now, ask yourself this; if he was the kind of guy that put you first, would you respect him? Or would you take a desire to please you as a sign of weakness? Some women, deep in their hearts, want a guy to "take charge" and put their needs on the back burner. Is this, secretly, what you want?

 

[Circe]

SLG, I'm really sorry your trip is delayed and you have to deal with all this hassle ... but I think I'm with LadyBlue on this one.

Your fiance would have let you down if you'd explicitly told him this was important to you and he'd said no anyway. If you asked casually and he expressed a preference not to (which I can sort of empathize with, as, man, I hate driving), and he then gave you good advice about what sort of transportation you should use to get there, he's not the bad guy here.

If this is, as you say, a theme in your relationship, use this as a springboard to talk about that and see if he'll change. He doesn't have to be a bad guy to not be the guy for you.

 

[shihtzulover]

I'm so sorry that you had to go through this - it sounds like a really stressful experience.

Honestly, I would be pretty irate if my fiance did that to me. Even though he might have taken you if you had made your wishes more clear, it really bothers me that he didn't offer to take you, and even worse, that he didn't apologize or feel remorseful when you called to tell him that you had missed your flight. I just can't justify why he wouldn't have taken you, unless he had an important prior commitment - but you said that's not the case at all.

Do you normally have problems like this, or is this the only instance? I get the vibe that he never really goes the extra mile for you, although I hope that I'm wrong.

Also, I know that plenty of other people have said this already, but him being from the northeast has nothing to do with it. I am from the northeast originally, but I have lived in the southeastern US for most of my life. I have gone on dates with several southern men, and with a few northern men, too. In general, I have found that the guys from up north can be just as chivalrous as the men in the south. My fiance is from the north, and he is the most thoughtful, generous, and considerate man that I have met by far.

Again, I'm really sorry that you have go through this.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

I suppose I did spring this on him last minute (I had forgotten what time my flight was and what time the public transit was). He now is claiming that he said he would take me, but I specifically remember him saying that I probably wouldn't make it if I took the public transit and him NOT OFFERING to drive me. Maybe I should have really asked him to take me, but it didn't seem like he would have done it.

How "last minute" did you spring this on him? I do think it's problematic that he said that he wouldn't take you, but am curious as to how much warning he had.

 

[yennyfire]

OK, here's my opinion for what it's worth. It doesn't sound like FI had a good reason for not wanting to take you to the airport and that concerns me. It's one thing if he had to work and couldn't take you...it's a totally different matter if he just didn't feel like it. A marriage can be hard work. There are many cases in the course of a day where you do something for your partner that you maybe don't feel like doing, but it's the right thing to do because you love them, so you do it. If this is an isolated incident, maybe I could let it go, but if it's a pattern, I might give some serious thought to what life with this man might be like. If you decide to have kids, it will take both of you working together to raise healthy, happy, productive kids. If he's not able to give you a ride to the airport, is he going to give up something that he wants to do in order to take a kid to a birthday party while you're taking another kid somewhere else?? If you are having second thoughts, trust me (as someone who's been there), it's much easier to break an engagement than it is to go through a divorce.

I know this is a tough position to be in, but think about what's right for you and if you really see yourself happy tolerating this behavior for the next 60 years. If the answer is "no", there's no shame in ending the engagement now. Hugs...

 

[mayerling]

I don't think that by taking you to the airport he would be treating you like a princess. It's strange to me that he wouldn't. I'm taking FI to the airport on Wednesday and the airport is 90 miles away from where we live. It never even occurred to me to ask him to use public transport. Why do you suppose your FI didn't want to drive you?

 

[mrscushion]

It WOULD have been the nice thing to do *but* why are you going to the hardware store for a loaf of bread? You need to ask for what you need, not expect people to treat you how you would treat them. Expectations are nothing but premeditated resentments. Asking him to take you and saying no is VASTLY different than you waiting for him to offer.

Ditto. I understood your initial post to mean that you asked him and he said no. This is different.

I agree with the posters who are saying you need to step up your expectations of your future life partner and communicate those expectations to him very clearly.

 

[slg47]

I suppose I did spring this on him last minute (I had forgotten what time my flight was and what time the public transit was). He now is claiming that he said he would take me, but I specifically remember him saying that I probably wouldn't make it if I took the public transit and him NOT OFFERING to drive me. Maybe I should have really asked him to take me, but it didn't seem like he would have done it.

How "last minute" did you spring this on him? I do think it's problematic that he said that he wouldn't take you, but am curious as to how much warning he had.

it was last night. luckily he did search online and found me an alternate flight...in the other city they were supposed to book it but somehow that did not happen so now I am in our original city and they are trying to find me an alternate flight. I should have just paid the difference in the other city but they said they would clear the funds.

I agree with the posters who are saying you need to step up your expectations of your future life partner and communicate those expectations to him very clearly.

I don't think it's a good relationship model to demand things of your partner that go against his/her personality. We have tried to communicate our differences and work through them.

I don't think that by taking you to the airport he would be treating you like a princess. It's strange to me that he wouldn't. I'm taking FI to the airport on Wednesday and the airport is 90 miles away from where we live. It never even occurred to me to ask him to use public transport. Why do you suppose your FI didn't want to drive you?

mayerling this is very nice of you.

 

[luv2sparkle]

I suppose I did spring this on him last minute (I had forgotten what time my flight was and what time the public transit was). He now is claiming that he said he would take me, but I specifically remember him saying that I probably wouldn't make it if I took the public transit and him NOT OFFERING to drive me. Maybe I should have really asked him to take me, but it didn't seem like he would have done it.

How "last minute" did you spring this on him? I do think it's problematic that he said that he wouldn't take you, but am curious as to how much warning he had.

it was last night. luckily he did search online and found me an alternate flight...in the other city they were supposed to book it but somehow that did not happen so now I am in our original city and they are trying to find me an alternate flight. I should have just paid the difference in the other city but they said they would clear the funds.

I agree with the posters who are saying you need to step up your expectations of your future life partner and communicate those expectations to him very clearly.

I don't think it's a good relationship model to demand things of your partner that go against his/her personality. We have tried to communicate our differences and work through them.

I don't think that by taking you to the airport he would be treating you like a princess. It's strange to me that he wouldn't. I'm taking FI to the airport on Wednesday and the airport is 90 miles away from where we live. It never even occurred to me to ask him to use public transport. Why do you suppose your FI didn't want to drive you?

mayerling this is very nice of you.

Sig, no offense but really is not about demanding things of your partner that goes against his 'personality', unless his whole personality
is his selfishness. When you love someone, you put yourself out for them. If your partner needs something, you meet the need, even
if you have to put yourself last. As a parent, you continually put your kids before yourself. If both people are doing this in a relationship
everyones needs are met. Sometimes you need more, sometimes he needs more.
I would tend to agree with your mom. I would explore this issue deeply in your heart before you marry him. You deserve someone
who makes you his top priority, even if it is inconvenient.

 

[iugurl]

"I don't think it's a good relationship model to demand things of your partner that go against his/her personality. We have tried to communicate our differences and work through them. "

I really disagree with this statement. Well not disagree with this statement, but disagree that this statement applies to THIS situation. Asking (and expecting!) that your FI help you by taking you to the airport goes against his personality? So what his personality consists of unhelpfulness and selfishness therefore helping you would go against his personality??

I can't imagine NOT taking my husband to the airport if he was going to be gone a week (or even a few days). I wouldn't even consider not taking him. It wouldn't even cross my mind that DH would refuse to take me to the airport either. It is just so unimaginable, assuming that we don't travel many times a month or something, which we don't.

I can imagine him not wanting to go to the grocery, mall, museum or something with me on short notice. But the airport, after which I will be gone for a few days!? I am mad and sad for you. I am not going to judge your relationship based on this one incident. I know nothing about you or him. Perhaps this is a very isolated incident. If it is not, I beg you to take some time to think things over.

Good luck.

 

[Dancing Fire]

So... ahhh... what are you going to do about it?

DUMP HIM..

 

[mrscushion]

I don't think it's a good relationship model to demand things of your partner that go against his/her personality. We have tried to communicate our differences and work through them.

I would not call communicating your expectations demanding, and I would not equate behaviors to personality. I doubt it is your FI's personality to not make you feel sufficiently prioritized.

Look, from what you have told us, you have expectations, they're not being met, and it's already breeding resentment. From what I have seen in relationships and marriages around me, resentment = really, really bad news... and I think it originates from not being honest with yourself and/or your partner about what you need and want.

 

[Fly Girl]

I'm going to take another view.

I have been booking and paying for flights home for my children for years. I never book an early morning flight for them because it is difficult for them to find rides, or use public transportation, to get to the airport. Yes, it often costs me more. Once my son missed a 1 pm flight because his roommate was busy until noon and somehow thought he would be able to drive him to the airport in time. Fortunately, back in those days, he was able to pay $50 and get a seat on the next flight, so only a 3 hour delay in getting home. Now, I always check with them the day before the flight to be sure they have a ride to the airport, or else I offer to pay the taxi. They often can get a ride to the airport, but not always.

My husband loves it when I pick him up at the airport, but I don't always do it. Sometimes he has to take a taxi home. I quit the personal airport taxi service when our babies were born. I couldn't see waking up a sleeping baby in the middle of a dark winter night to make a 2 hour round trip drive to the airport. Last year my SIL asked me to get up at 3 am, drive an hour to pick them up, so I could take them to the airport, then drive another hour to get myself home. They were going on a nice vacation and live much closer to the airport than I do. I said no. Friends and relatives should not be expected to get up in the middle of the night to be an airport taxi service. It is a nice thing to do, but it should not be expected.

My view--If you can afford to fly, you can afford to get to the airport. It is part of the cost of the trip. It is not your FI's fault that you missed your flight. Take responsibility for getting to the airport in plenty of time.

 

[slg47]

dear everyone-thank you for all of your responses. I had a talk with FI and he still doesn't think it's his job to do things like take me to the airport. My mother strongly disagrees and wants me to be with someone who 'takes care of me.' It just irks me that FI's main argument is "that's not how we usually do things!" (we usually take the public transportation, but we USUALLY fly at times where the public transportation gets us to the airport on time). Interestingly FI talked to his parents about this and they see nothing wrong with it. I really do think it might be a cultural thing, in his family/culture/whatever people just don't go out of their way for loved ones. The problem is, to me, it's not going out of my way...it's just what I want to do because doing things for my FI makes ME happy. It's not a sacrifice for me to go to a different store to get him the cereal he likes, because I know it makes him happy. I just know he would never go out of his way to get my cereal, and I'm not sure if that's OK or not. I guess it works for some couples and not for others.

 

[yssie]

dear everyone-thank you for all of your responses. I had a talk with FI and he still doesn't think it's his job to do things like take me to the airport. My mother strongly disagrees and wants me to be with someone who 'takes care of me.' It just irks me that FI's main argument is "that's not how we usually do things!" (we usually take the public transportation, but we USUALLY fly at times where the public transportation gets us to the airport on time). Interestingly FI talked to his parents about this and they see nothing wrong with it. I really do think it might be a cultural thing, in his family/culture/whatever people just don't go out of their way for loved ones. The problem is, to me, it's not going out of my way...it's just what I want to do because doing things for my FI makes ME happy. It's not a sacrifice for me to go to a different store to get him the cereal he likes, because I know it makes him happy. I just know he would never go out of his way to get my cereal, and I'm not sure if that's OK or not. I guess it works for some couples and not for others.

slg.. no advice for you, just a ::HUG:: it sounds like such a small thing, a drive to the airport, but from your posts.. it doesn't seem so insignificant at all, to you.

I hope you can come to some resolution re. expectations and fulfillment. Yeah, it's not his job, but.. it sure would be nice if he wanted to do it anyway, to make things easier for you.

 

[MonkeyPie]

I had a talk with FI and he still doesn't think it's his job to do things like take me to the airport.

...I don't think we even need to tell you that this is the stupidest thing he could have possibly said.

I told my husband, and he rolled his eyes and said, "Women like that are to blame if they are unhappy. They think things will change when they get married or that they can force the man to change over time. That never works." FWIW, my husband thinks your FI is a jerk for not just jumping up to take you, because to him, that is simply what you DO in a relationship. Otherwise, what's the point of being with someone? A relationship is about give and take, and your FI is only taking.

 

[suchende]

dear everyone-thank you for all of your responses. I had a talk with FI and he still doesn't think it's his job to do things like take me to the airport. My mother strongly disagrees and wants me to be with someone who 'takes care of me.' It just irks me that FI's main argument is "that's not how we usually do things!" (we usually take the public transportation, but we USUALLY fly at times where the public transportation gets us to the airport on time). Interestingly FI talked to his parents about this and they see nothing wrong with it. I really do think it might be a cultural thing, in his family/culture/whatever people just don't go out of their way for loved ones. The problem is, to me, it's not going out of my way...it's just what I want to do because doing things for my FI makes ME happy. It's not a sacrifice for me to go to a different store to get him the cereal he likes, because I know it makes him happy. I just know he would never go out of his way to get my cereal, and I'm not sure if that's OK or not. I guess it works for some couples and not for others.

This similar subject came up in an LIW thread. I don't think it makes him a bad mate to not do little sweet favors for you. It makes him a bad mate FOR YOU if you're the sort of mate who dotes on your partner and he isn't. These things should be bilateral. I am definitely a doting girlfriend and my past relationships had a lot of these inequities. Now that I'm in a fairer relationship, and I realize how important it is to me, as a doting mate, to have someone who pays me back the same courtesies. Otherwise, resentments build up.

 

[katamari]

You need to ask for what you need, not expect people to treat you how you would treat them. Expectations are nothing but premeditated resentments. Asking him to take you and saying no is VASTLY different than you waiting for him to offer.

This should be sticky-ed to LIW (and probably BWW, FHH, and Hangout). Wanting people to want to do something for you is probably the worst relationship strategy frequently practiced.

It's up to you to decide you want an equal partnership and then hold yourselves both accountable to having one.

I do, though, hate to hear you are stuck at the airport.

 

[merilenda]

I guess we all have different expectations of a relationship...

but I think what worries me the most is his response to all this. Because even if that's how they do things in his family, it's something that you expect. Even if he doesn't think it's "something you do," he should realize that it's important to you.

 

[Camille]

Lol DF....

Expectations do vary, but there is no excuse large enough to avoid taking loved ones to the airport, last minute or not.

1. I'm sure FI loves you SLG but, I have to agree with Merilenda.
2. Never beg a man for anything.
3. If your expectations aren't being met now, wait a year or two
4. Listen to your mother, we often catch things ahead of time
5. I'm Sorry!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Lol DF....

Expectations do vary, but there is no excuse large enough to avoid taking loved ones to the airport, last minute or not.

1. I'm sure FI loves you SLG but, I have to agree with Merilenda.
2. Never beg a man for anything.
3. If your expectations aren't being met now, wait a year or two
4. Listen to your mother, we often catch things ahead of time
5. I'm Sorry!

..not even sex?

 

[slg47]

well anyway I think this whole thing got sort of emotional given that I was stuck in different airports from 7 am to 4 pm today. Thanks for all of your responses. I had a LONG talk with FI and I think it was mostly a big misunderstanding that got worse because my mom was so upset (she expects him to do things like this). He did say that he wants to work on things and he is committed to taking small steps together (I suggested that he plan 1 date per month, he seemed to think this was reasonable). Anyway luckily I am getting on a flight tomorrow, FI and I will take BART TOGETHER to the airport (he is going to a conference next wk). We are both going to work on communicating more directly in the future.

 

[Tuckins1]

Lol DF....

Expectations do vary, but there is no excuse large enough to avoid taking loved ones to the airport, last minute or not.

1. I'm sure FI loves you SLG but, I have to agree with Merilenda.
2. Never beg a man for anything.
3. If your expectations aren't being met now, wait a year or two
4. Listen to your mother, we often catch things ahead of time
5. I'm Sorry!

..not even sex?

If you have to beg, there's a problem....

 

[Tacori E-ring]

I don't think it's a good relationship model to demand things of your partner that go against his/her personality. We have tried to communicate our differences and work through them.

I would not call communicating your expectations demanding, and I would not equate behaviors to personality. I doubt it is your FI's personality to not make you feel sufficiently prioritized.

Look, from what you have told us, you have expectations, they're not being met, and it's already breeding resentment. From what I have seen in relationships and marriages around me, resentment = really, really bad news... and I think it originates from not being honest with yourself and/or your partner about what you need and want.

I agree with mscushion. Asking for a ride to the airport and explaining why is much different than demanding a ride or worse expecting him to read your mind and offer you a ride. **I don't think being a self advocate for yourself equals a demanding person.** If you don't look out for yourself no one else will. No one can love you as much as you can love yourself. No one will treat you well, if you don't treat yourself well. That is about being emotionally mature IMHO, not a princess. The fact that you did not name this thread "I Missed My Flight!" or "I Am Stuck in the Airport" says a great deal about your hidden motives. I could be completely wrong. I do not know you, your BF, your mom, your relationships, but I think your doubt in this relationship runs deeper than this one incident. Personally I do not see Northerns vs. Southerns a huge cultural gap. That is just silly. You are justifying someone else's bad behavior. Here is the thing, chances are he is not going to change so you need to ask yourself if this is someone you want to spend your life with. No judgments. If he is, than great, but stop playing the victim. He is who he is. Stop expecting him to magically change. Stop blaming where he grew up or his family. He is an adult who is making his own decisions just as you are. Accept him for who he is or move on.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

You need to ask for what you need, not expect people to treat you how you would treat them. Expectations are nothing but premeditated resentments. Asking him to take you and saying no is VASTLY different than you waiting for him to offer.

This should be sticky-ed to LIW (and probably BWW, FHH, and Hangout). Wanting people to want to do something for you is probably the worst relationship strategy frequently practiced.

Took me awhile to learn Katamari. It is amazing how many people act as if life is a spectators sport. We have to stand up for what we need and want out of *all* of our relationships.

 

[Indylady]

I don't think it's a good relationship model to demand things of your partner that go against his/her personality. We have tried to communicate our differences and work through them.

Driving others to the airport is against my personality too.

Just kidding.

I don't think the problem is your expectations, or your FI's--the problem is the gap between the gap between the two. I know a couple that goes dutch on dates; they're engaged, and they still go dutch! They just do. Neither of them expects otherwise. Its strange to me but it works for them. If catching your own ride to the airport worked for you, this thread wouldn't be here. Like Tacori said, the title of this thread makes me think that this issue runs deeper than a missed flight. Lots hugs and dust to you Slg as you work on this!

 

[Autumnovember]

What I'm not understanding out of all of this is this:

Now that he knows that you were upset by not being taken to the airport why not simply say, "I'm really sorry I hurt your feelings that way, next time if you want me to take you to the airport or do something similar for you, I will because it's important to you."

Personally, I would stop going 'out of my way' for him. If he wants a certain cereal, he can go buy it on his time. I doubt he'll appreciate you not going out of your way for him.

 

[Prana]

dear everyone-thank you for all of your responses. I had a talk with FI and he still doesn't think it's his job to do things like take me to the airport. My mother strongly disagrees and wants me to be with someone who 'takes care of me.' It just irks me that FI's main argument is "that's not how we usually do things!" (we usually take the public transportation, but we USUALLY fly at times where the public transportation gets us to the airport on time). Interestingly FI talked to his parents about this and they see nothing wrong with it. I really do think it might be a cultural thing, in his family/culture/whatever people just don't go out of their way for loved ones. The problem is, to me, it's not going out of my way...it's just what I want to do because doing things for my FI makes ME happy. It's not a sacrifice for me to go to a different store to get him the cereal he likes, because I know it makes him happy. I just know he would never go out of his way to get my cereal, and I'm not sure if that's OK or not. I guess it works for some couples and not for others.

There's just so much WRONG with all of this...

''doesn't think it's his job to do things like take me to the airport"--No it's not his job, but if he was genuinely concerned for you and about you, he would have ASSUMED FROM THE GETGO that he was taking you to the airport. I really don't understand how this is justifiable AT ALL.

Why are your parents getting involved? If you are having an argument, the last thing either of you should be doing is asking your parents who is right and who is wrong. Obviously the parents are going to side with their child (in most instances). And IMHO, parents have NO place in their engaged/married/adult childrens relationship problems. Unless there is a need to worry, like abuse.

It may be acceptable in his family, but I was born and raised in New England, my husband was as well, and so were all of our friends. And all of our parents. I've never seen anybody behave like that in a relationship unless they were just a selfish, uncaring person. It has nothing to do with where he is from, it has everything to do with how he was raised and how you tolerated his behavior.

If his family doesn't go out of their way for loved ones, is that the type of family you want to be involved with? Do you want to be in a terrible pinch, and have your inlaws tell you that they can't help you out? Do you want to raise your future kids in that type of environment, so that they basically turn out the same way?

Do you really want to spend the rest of your life doing things to make him happy, while your most important needs are not being met? Just the thought of that makes me want to vomit. I couldn't imagine running myself ragged, constantly trying to please my husband and make him happy, while he couldn't even recognize that he should be giving me a ride to the airport.

I hope you use your spring break to do some serious soul searching and some hardcore questioning of your relationship...

And of course, I wish you the best of happiness no matter what you choose!

 

[ksinger]

Well, I don't really see this instance as a cultural issue, although I do think that you being from the south, you probably ARE used to a bit more of the old-fashioned male-female interactions - perhaps both from the neanderthal perspective on one hand, and maybe more of the ladies-first manners on the other. That aside, not taking you was just a very uncaring gesture. Errands can be done most anytime, helping you get to the airport should have been a priority. That sort of thing is what a relationship is supposed to be about. It's not being needy or dependent to expect the support of your loved one, or to expect them to want to make your life a bit easier and/or more pleasant.

My father and I were not close. He passed away very recently, and the thought of going to the funeral alone without some support from other family members was pretty unpleasant. I had a 3 hour drive to get there too. But I never even seriously considered asking my husband to attend, because of the aforementioned, and because he didn't know the man at all, and because with his job, taking time off is difficult and I didn't want to cause issues there for him. However, as we were talking about all this, my husband finally became aware that I thought I was going alone. He snorted and said, "You don't honestly think I'm going to let you go alone do you?" I was taken aback, and very touched actually. He said, "Work will just have to deal. You need me there." Sweet man.

That is the sort of thing that should be going on, IMO. He thinks of you even when YOU don't. Of course, in fairness, I don't think my man would have been quite so sensitive at 27 either, so there is the youth thing to consider. But I will warn you, that sort of thing, if it truly bothers you and makes you feel un-cared-for, can quickly poison a marriage, and I know it quite well on a personal level. I had a husband like that - no little things, and a glaring lack of respect on some pretty big things too, and well, I'm not married to that man anymore.

You can marry him now and try to get past that, or train him (a very dangerous and usually fruitless endeavor), or wait a bit and see if he comes around before you tie the knot. Others have said to give yourself the gift of some more time, and I would second that. If I know one thing with dead certainty, it's that you cannot forever lie to yourself about those things that bug you. If they do, they just DO, and no apologies are necessary, and no amount of denial will change it.

 

[ksinger]

What I'm not understanding out of all of this is this:

Now that he knows that you were upset by not being taken to the airport why not simply say, "I'm really sorry I hurt your feelings that way, next time if you want me to take you to the airport or do something similar for you, I will because it's important to you."

Personally, I would stop going 'out of my way' for him. If he wants a certain cereal, he can go buy it on his time. I doubt he'll appreciate you not going out of your way for him.

The problem with that, is that by doing that, she would be going against how SHE needs to relate to a person she loves. You show love in the manner you wish to BE loved, and trying to change that is fraught. Been there done that, and it's done out of hurt and resentment when it gets to that point, and when that happens your really ARE on your way down. My experience, is when I did that, he didn't really even notice, which was an even bigger slap in the face. He really just did.not.care.

I'm with the others who have noted that if she has expressed her need for this kind of care, and he is unwilling to cheerfully give it simply because she needs it, does not bode well going forward. I know men can be dense in the emotional arena, but when you have clearly stated your needs and aren't expecting him to mind-read, and still get a refusal, you need to reassess.