Michelle Duggar Pregnant with 18th Child

[Tacori E-ring]

ksinger, how are the Duggar''s impacting your life?

I think we are all above thinking slavery is tolerable.

 

[vespergirl]

I really have a problem with this family, because I don''t think that those children can possibly get the type of attention and care from their parents that all children deserve. I have several friends that were the oldest of 6 or 8 children, and they resent their parents today from stealing their own childhoods away from them by making them responsible for the youngest kids. As much as they love their younger siblings, the parents obviously could not supervise and raise all of the children without the non-stop work done by the older sibs. The older sibs end up as de facto parents at the age of 10 or 12, without ever having had a say in it, and all of their free time is spent in chores & childcare - I doubt that those kids get to participate in sports, the arts, or the community, because they''re too busy being free child labor for their parents.

Also, they are clearly supporting themselves with the proceeds from their TV specials - why do you think they would put themselves on TV if they didn''t need the money? Since they disapprove of American society so greatly that they wouldn''t even allow their children in the public school system, I am surprised that they''re equally happy to exploit themselves for the entertainment of the American public.

Sorry if this kind of sounds like a rant, but I think those people are irresponsible parents who take advantage of the women and children in their society at the under the veil of religious belief. To me, they''re not that different from the FLDS cult. Women have no role or choice in life other than constant breeding, and the children are denied a real education. I think it''s a sad situation all around.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

VG, I am the first to admit I do not know that much about them though I have seen one of their specials on TLC. Michelle was not forced into marriage OR having children. There seemed to be a mutual respect between her and her husband. As to them disapproving of American society...I don''t know about that. I don''t think that just b/c a parent choses to home school mean that they disapprove of American society....just that they feel they can do a better job than the public school system. I also know there ARE public schools out there that you would not want to send your children too.

I am sure everyone''s friends who have a lot of siblings would never wish that they *weren''t* born and I would hope they wouldn''t wish one of their siblings weren''t...maybe I am wrong.

I doubt they are making that much money off of their TV specials. After all the ave. child costs $250,000 to raise to 18....also there is obviously an American interest otherwise TLC would never produce their shows.

 

[vespergirl]

Just because I''m not done ranting, I guess, I want to share another story that has always bothered me about how upset it makes me when religious leaders (usually men) start meddling in the reproductive lives of families. My mom is one of 6 kids. Her mother was pregnant with her 7th when she was around 40 years old. She was a Roman Catholic living in Europe right after WWII, and she loved children, and basically had a kid every two years because the church dictated against birth control. My grandmother was a devout Catholic who would have never dreamed fo doing anything against the church''s teachings, and who prayed the entire rosary 6 times a day until the day she died (once for each of her kids).

Because she was having such a difficult pregnancy, and almost bled to death delivering her 6th, the doctors insisted that she terminate her pregnancy in order to remain alive to take care of her surviving 6 children, the youngest of which was only 2 years old. My grandfather, and ultimately, their village priest, convinced her that saving her life was the better thing to do since she had 6 children at home that needed a mother, not to be left without one. This was also right after WWII, so food was very scarce, and they were having big trouble taking care of the 6 they already had. So, they terminated the pregnancy to save her life.

However, when my grandmother died last year at the age of 92, she confessed to us that she was sure that she was going to hell for having terminated the last pregnancy, even though it was the only thing that could have been done to save her life and her family. This woman lived like an absolute saint, prayed and went to church every day, and was worried about what had happened 50 years before. It made me so sad to think that the church could teach something so out of touch with the realitles of life and health - shame on them for making an old woman feel bad about her choice to save her family. Even though she was "forgiven" by many priests over the years, she always was made to feel guilty by the church''s teachings. To me the much bigger "sin" would have been to leave her 6 remaining children to starve to death without her care (my grandfather was a captain who was at sea most of the year).

Anyway, the point of telling this story is, I wonder what would happen in God forbid something went wrong with the Duggars'' next pregnancy? What if something happens to one of those parents? Who on earth is going to take in 18 children? I always felt so sorry that my grandmother''s religion would so greatly affect her reproductive life, and ultimately, her health. I think about what effect the Duggars'' religion may have on the health of Mrs. Duggar as well - because if something happens to her, no one will suffer more than all of those poor children.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 6/3/2008 12:14:18 PM
Author: Tacori E-ring
VG, I am the first to admit I do not know that much about them though I have seen one of their specials on TLC. Michelle was not forced into marriage OR having children. There seemed to be a mutual respect between her and her husband. As to them disapproving of American society...I don''t know about that. I don''t think that just b/c a parent choses to home school mean that they disapprove of American society....just that they feel they can do a better job than the public school system. I also know there ARE public schools out there that you would not want to send your children too.

I am sure everyone''s friends who have a lot of siblings would never wish that they *weren''t* born and I would hope they wouldn''t wish one of their siblings weren''t...maybe I am wrong.

I doubt they are making that much money off of their TV specials. After all the ave. child costs $250,000 to raise to 18....also there is obviously an American interest otherwise TLC would never produce their shows.

Hey tacori, I get what you''re saying. But none of my friends wished their sibs had never been born - they love them & know it''s not their fault - but they did resent their parents for foisting this extra responsibility on them.

Regarding the women I know who are the oldest of 6 or more siblings, one of them always felt that she had so much pressure put on her by her parents to be the 2nd mommy that she never had a childhood, and also they would not permit her to marry her boyfriend (this was in the 1950s) because they needed her at home to help with the younger children (in our culture, you could not disobey the parents, so she had no option but to stay). She loved her parents, but always resented them denying her happiness and her own life. When her boyfriend was later killed in combat, and she knew they would never be married, she felt that she could never forgive her parents for missing the happiness they might have had together but didn''t, even if it would have only been for a short while.

Another, who is also the oldest of 6 kids, who''s the same age as me, ended up taking in her two youngest siblings who were teenagers while she was in her early 30s because her father left her mother and her mother could no longer take care of them. So, now, instead of starting her own family, her and her husband are raising two teenagers. Also, she grew up very poor, and these days, she always expresses how envious she is that I was an accomplished ballerina & pianist as a teenager because my parents always had me in lessons, and we had the means to participate in extra-curricular activites. While I was in ballet classes, she was doing endless loads of laundry by the age of 10, cooking dinner for her family, and left in charge of supervising a houseful of babies while her mother was at work. She was basically a single mom at age 10 because her parents were irresponsible with both their reproductive health, and money. They had more kids than they could afford, and there was more than once they they ended up in shelters as a kid. To me, that''s not a happy childhood - that''s suffering at the hands of irresponsilble parents.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

VG, those are sad examples for sure. But I also know people from large families who LOVED the experience and have wonderful parents. Only children can have a horrible childhood as well.

I guess my point is where do you draw the line? Do you think the government should mandate how many children we are allowed to have?

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 6/3/2008 12:45:53 PM
Author: Tacori E-ring
VG, those are sad examples for sure. But I also know people from large families who LOVED the experience and have wonderful parents. Only children can have a horrible childhood as well.

I guess my point is where do you draw the line? Do you think the government should mandate how many children we are allowed to have?

Of course I don''t think the govt. should mandate how many children we should have (I''m a libertarian) but nor should religious institutions - that''s the point I have about both the Duggars'' church and the Roman Catholic Church, that may cause women to feel obligated to have children without end. I also think that if people can afford to have huge families than they should go for it, like Bobby & Ethel Kennedy with thier 11 kids! But, i think that if a family is struggling financially, and they keep having kids, due to either ignorance, selfishness, or a sense of religious obligation, the kids are going to be the ones that suffer, and I just think it''s really sad.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 6/3/2008 12:45:53 PM
Author: Tacori E-ring
VG, those are sad examples for sure. But I also know people from large families who LOVED the experience and have wonderful parents. Only children can have a horrible childhood as well.

I guess my point is where do you draw the line? Do you think the government should mandate how many children we are allowed to have?

BTW, I totally agree that people can love coming from a huge family - I just find that often those people are the younger kids. My mom and her younger sister, who were the 5th & 6th in their family of 6 children, remember having idyllic childhoods. Their eldest sister, the firstborn, felt like a slave working for her mother nonstop - I think that the younger kids definiltey benefit from having the attention of the parents & the older siblings, but the eldest ones usually suffer under the huge responsibility.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

The Duggars have no debt (I believe they even paid for their house in cash). The special I saw showed the oldest boy (or maybe one of them) and his film making hobby. They even built a little studio for him. I totally see what you are saying about children losing their childhood b/c they need to help but I guess I can see that from a family of 4 as well. I don''t know. I am just shocked with the anger this thread caused.

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

Date: 6/3/2008 12:45:53 PM
Author: Tacori E-ring
VG, those are sad examples for sure. But I also know people from large families who LOVED the experience and have wonderful parents. Only children can have a horrible childhood as well.

I guess my point is where do you draw the line? Do you think the government should mandate how many children we are allowed to have?

I have known quite a few older sibs from large families and all of them wish they could have been in a smaller family. I don''t mean to say they wished their sibs didn''t exist, just that they truely wished to be part of another family in way and with more intensity my other friends, including the only children, never did.

As for the limit, I don''t think the government should dictate it, but I do feel that other things should. Having only as many kids as you can raise is a start. Having as many as you can support is another. Raising them without needing publicity is another (I know they were asked, but like I mentioned before, I have known another large family that did it for god and felt that made it inappropriate to telavise). Another is not hurting your kids'' dreams. As I have said before, the oldest is not persuing his dream, he is raising kids. I know he can always start college later, but he wants to be an attorney and that is competitive, if he wants in he needs to start getting an education now. I suspect the next oldest who wants to be a midwife will have the same problem.

 

[AmberWaves]

I'm going to tentatively stick my head in here for a moment because Vespergirl touched on something I've been thinking the whole thread long. I understand the Duggar's wanting to live their lives the Quiverfull way, my husband was raised a Catholic and has strict beliefs as well... but at what point will they see fit to stop procreating? I understand the people questioning their abilities to let their children be children, and not have them "working" for the family raising the children younger than them.

DH is a teacher at a Catholic school, and he sees plenty of children who have been forced to "raise" their younger siblings, and after also coaching them as well (ha ha, to the previous poster who mentioned her DH teaching but not coaching!), and he can see how this affects them in their daily life. However, that is not his job to judge, only to nurture. An example: one student has been raised with many siblings, and a mother who has to provide for all of them, as the father skipped town once there were too many children to bear with. Now, this student is the oldest, and the only male. His family is asking him to leave school to help with the family's income. He is 13 years old. DH recently talked to him about schoolwork, and asked him why he was getting upset about doing poorly on his test. The child mentioned having to work nights at his mother's friend's store, as well as having to make sure his sisters eat. The kid sometimes comes to school without food, and goes to bed hungry, but has to tolerate it because he's the male. DH had to buy him SHOES for school, since his mother couldn't afford it, and hey- no shoes, no school! STILL, he does all his homework, even when he's out "helping" at the store. When DH told this kid that he was proud of him, and has great hopes for the future, and that YES, you can make something out of yourself, the kid cried. Why? No one ever told him that.

His mother was too busy with her job, and spends most of her time gone. This kid has lost his childhood by caring for his siblings. His father left them, and hasn't ever told him he loves him. One person shows a little affection and pride for this kid and he lost it. I don't think that's fair.

OF COURSE, this is a rare case. I totally understand that. I'm sure the Duggars love their children, but with that many kids, how often can you show it? And the point VG mentioned, what if God stopped providing them with healthy children, or a healthy uterus (how has that thing not fallen out yet?

)? If God-Forbid, something would happen that would threaten her life, would they still proceed with having yet more children? What if she died in childbirth, and there were 18 children left to rear? Who would take responsibility for them? I have a feeling it wouldn't just be the father. And those older children, should they have to care for their younger siblings, what would happen to them finding their own families and relationships?

I'm not going to judge on their rights to have more children. That's not my place. They will do what they feel fit, and that's their right. I just worry about the affection the children receive, and what should happen if something goes awry. Then again, I'm just one person struggling to have her own child, so perhaps this is just being colored by that instance.

ETA: My catholic school education insurance plan oddly will cover any and all maternity and obstetrics fees (even problem births), but will not cover birth control. The catholic hospital I'm interested in using shall we be blessed with a child does not do tubal ligations or any elective operations to impair your fertility. I find that oddly intriguing.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 6/3/2008 11:36:38 AM
Author: Tacori E-ring
ksinger, how are the Duggar''s impacting your life?

I think we are all above thinking slavery is tolerable.

Where exactly are you going by asking? Is it relevant to what I said?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

There are probably plenty of only children who have professional parents and spend more time with a nanny or in daycare than they do with their parents. Those kids may have money and educational opportunity, but I think the Duggar kids have a better shot at happiness coming from a large and loving family. That's why I don't condemn them. Not every family unit has to be the same. People should have choices. These people are paying their own way and support their children. I think the parents have chosen this lifestyle and no religious organization is forcing it on them.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Date: 6/3/2008 5:25:49 PM
Author: ksinger

Date: 6/3/2008 11:36:38 AM

Author: Tacori E-ring

ksinger, how are the Duggar''s impacting your life?


I think we are all above thinking slavery is tolerable.

Where exactly are you going by asking? Is it relevant to what I said?

You said "I for one don''t believe it is intolerant to point out that people''s choices, even ones as "none of your business" as having children or not having them, do have an impact on others, directly or indirectly, and that the impact to society may indeed be negative."

So I was just curious how it impacts your life (as a member of society).

 

[iwannaprettyone]

PIE!

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Right, wrong or indifferent we can agree to disagree if need be....

Some interesting points.

ETA My FI is one of 3 his older sister is 17 years his senior and the middle 15. So basically he was raised by 3 moms....he is a pretty normal fellow.

 

[Skippy123]

Date: 6/3/2008 6:17:12 PM
Author: iwannaprettyone
PIE!

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Right, wrong or indifferent we can agree to disagree if need be....

Some interesting points.

ETA My FI is one of 3 his older sister is 17 years his senior and the middle 15. So basically he was raised by 3 moms....he is a pretty normal fellow.

Iwanna, I will take a slice please!!!

I agree we need some pie

and I think Wifey made this piece.

 

[iwannaprettyone]

Dang skip, where''d you get the glob of icecream? *drools*

 

[Skippy123]

Date: 6/3/2008 6:24:34 PM
Author: iwannaprettyone
Dang skip, where'd you get the glob of icecream? *drools*

LOL, I dunno,

it came with the PIE

* SPOONS BEING PASSED AROUND*

 

[HollyS]

Date: 6/3/2008 5:44:13 PM
Author: Tacori E-ring

Date: 6/3/2008 5:25:49 PM
Author: ksinger

Date: 6/3/2008 11:36:38 AM

Author: Tacori E-ring

ksinger, how are the Duggar''s impacting your life?


I think we are all above thinking slavery is tolerable.

Where exactly are you going by asking? Is it relevant to what I said?

You said ''I for one don''t believe it is intolerant to point out that people''s choices, even ones as ''none of your business'' as having children or not having them, do have an impact on others, directly or indirectly, and that the impact to society may indeed be negative.''

So I was just curious how it impacts your life (as a member of society).

Does everythiing have to impact us ''personally'' for it to matter to us? For it to be a sticking point, something we object to on a moral level, or just have a strong opinion about?

My strong opinion, moral objection, and sticking point is that anyone would willfully choose to have 18 children without regard to how it will impact their family''s life. Forget society at large.

I don''t care what their religion is. I don''t give a hoot about home schooling. I don''t think about the Duggars on a daily basis, and rant about their (idiotic to me) choices; but when I see them in print, I do have a sense of "Jesus, not again". I can assure you, I never think "well, good for them".

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Holly, I think that is a normal and healthy reaction. I was wondering about the posters who are having rather harsh and extreme opinions on them.

I am *unfortunately* always in the mood for pie.

 

[Skippy123]

Date: 6/3/2008 6:53:45 PM
Author: Tacori E-ring
Holly, I think that is a normal and healthy reaction. I was wondering about the posters who are having rather harsh and extreme opinions on them.

I am *unfortunately* always in the mood for pie.

Me too, what kind would you like Tacori?

 

[Skippy123]

Anyone for chocolate???

 

[Kaleigh]

Yay, I am always up for PIE!!!!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I am going to have some pie after I say this ooooone last thing!

I think it is almost hysterically funny that I keep seeing people say it is "selfish" to have 18 children!!! I can safely say as the mother of 3 that you have very little time for yourself once you have ONE child! You can''t be self-centered or selfish if you have 18 because your life would be totally giving to others all the time!

Okay, now I will have either key lime pie or cheesecake!

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Date: 6/3/2008 7:55:39 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
I am going to have some pie after I say this ooooone last thing!


I think it is almost hysterically funny that I keep seeing people say it is ''selfish'' to have 18 children!!! I can safely say as the mother of 3 that you have very little time for yourself once you have ONE child! You can''t be self-centered or selfish if you have 18 because your life would be totally giving to others all the time!

Don''t I know it!

Skippy, I''ll just take good old apple

 

[FrekeChild]

Somehow I am not surprised that this thread has come to pie...

But I won''t eat it with you. I''ll continue sipping on my chocolate milkshake instead.

 

[jas]

*walks into thread, sniffing around*

Pie?

 

[Miranda]

Yahoo! PIE!!!! It''s about time! I was begging for some pie in another thread, but, nobody else wants it! I had to come here to get it!

Oh Skippy! That looks so delicious! I only have lemon cake at my house. I really want a big piece of chocolate pie!

 

[ahappygirl]

DS - last post about "selfish" - AMEN. Seriously. I''ve had to stay off this thread since early on. It''s giving me a mild headache.

I need pie.

 

[Skippy123]

Okay, sounds good *Pie's being served*!!!! hehe

Glad you like the chocolate Miranda! Okay, apple coming right up Tacori

Name, we got it!!! hehe