Logic behind accepting EGL grading for vintage stones?

[snoopkat]

I've been browsing JbEG and while they have some stunning pieces, almost all of their diamonds are EGL graded. Not only that, but alot of the stones I've seen are also low colour/clarity. I've read over and over again on RT that EGL is a no go zone as far as their stones are concerned because of the lax grading and you don't really know whar you're getting. So I don't understand why antique cuts are so popular and I've been going around and around in circles over the last week or so wondering this. My current thought process goes something like this 'ooohhh diamond from JbEG...pretty...but it''s EGL..but loads of people like JbEG...but EGL is bad...but there are so many old cut lovers on PS so they must know what they're doing...but it's EGL...'

So my questions:

1) Why is it not recommended to buy an EGL graded modern cut diamond but EGL antique diamonds are ok?
2) Why is JbEG such a popular vendor with PS when they send almost all of their stones to EGL?. Note this is not a bash on JbEG btw, I'm genuinely curious as to why they're so popular when they send stones to a place that is generally not supported by the prosumers here.
3) If you take an EGL antique diamond over to GIA/AGS, what sort of grading is GIA/AGS likely to give it?

 

[Gypsy]

You are stuck with EGL reports for old cuts because that's what the industry standard is. I don't like it, but it's just the way those stones are graded. JBEG will send any stone you want over to Dave for a full appraisal, with GIA standard color evaluation if you ask them. It's one of the services they provide for peace of mind. I've met JBEG and seen and played with their wares. They are ladies that genuinely want happy customers and will work with you to make your customer service experience a good one-- that's why they get the raves.

GIA has weird cut and angle criteria that are way too strict for what they will call a European diamond. Most OECs and Transitionals will come back as poorly cut Round Brilliants as a result. Which devalues them, in inaccurate, and also gives lie to their beauty. AGS and old cuts is not something I know about so maybe someone else can comment. GIA also has a 20 day or more wait and is likened to the DMV in their service. EGL has a quick turn around and better customer service.

JBEG is not the only one who sends to EGL, at Old World Diamonds, the other frequently recommended vendor on here you will see a slew of EGL certificates. And the same thing at Lang's Antiques (a very high end SF store). Like I said, it's the way the old cut industry operates.

As for color and clarity. High color old cuts were routinely re-cut into round brilliants, and still are today. They used to fetch more per carat that way, it's only this last year that the rap allowed for old cuts to have the same pricing as round brillants. So many of the old cuts available are lower colors that weren't 'worth' recutting. As to clarity, many old cuts have small chips at the girdle or abraded facets from wear, and many were not cut with decent girdles (it was just the cut standard, no girdle) so the clarity grade is lowered due to these characteristics. You can have them repolished and have a girdle put on them if you wish. I've had it done to several old cuts myself. In one case my diamond went in with abraded facets, no girdle, and a chip and an SI2 clarity rating, and it came back with only 1 point of weight loss and a VS clarity rating plus it was safe to set in anyway because it now had a safe girdle.

 

[Gypsy]

To address your other questions about why someone would pick an old cut over a RB-- here's a whole thread to explore: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/old-cut-nuts-have-you-switched-from-rb-to-old-stone.175538/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/old-cut-nuts-have-you-switched-from-rb-to-old-stone.175538/[/URL]

 

[kenny]

I don't give a hooey what the so-called standard is.
I love JbEG and would gladly do business with them in a heartbeat, but before I'd agree to buy a stone I'd insist it also had a GIA report.
I simply want to know for sure the specs of any diamond I'm buying.
I accept that the EGL "F VVS2" that GIA grades J SI2 may not change the price that JbEG was asking when it only had EGL paper and specs.
Hopefully JbEG is basing their pricing on their own personal expertise, NOT on EGL 'grades'.
How can you set a firm price on color and clarity specs that can vary by as much as 5 grades?

This is Pricescope and we have influence.
Vote with your money.
Perhaps if enough of us do this the "standard" will gravitate from EGL to GIA.
I hate supporting what EGL gets away with.
I'd be delighted if we put them out of business.
I think their color an clarity grade lies are as unethical as reporting a heavier weight.

 

[Haven]

I'm disappointed that the vendors who specialize in selling antique stones don't exert some kind of influence, here. They *could* send their antique cushions to GIA (I understand the concerns about sending OECs, which Gypsy addressed,) but they choose not to. I know that JbEG is considering dual certification, and I would respect that quite a bit if I saw that happen.

My local jeweler sourced my antique cushion, and I chose to have it sent to GIA. It came back with the OMB designation, and I'm much happier knowing what I have in this stone according to GIA standards than I would be with an EGL cert.

I work in an industry that has poor standards for the particular field that I teach, but I'm not willing to just suck it up and meet only those standards because that's what's always been done. I'm fighting hard to change the standards, and I wouldn't be proud of my work if I didn't.

FWIW, I wouldn't buy a stone from anyone anymore until it was sent to GIA or AGS. I love JbEG and their stones and settings, but I'll never buy a stone from them if they won't sent it to GIA. (I don't know if they'll send their stones to GIA, I'm just using this example to make my point.)

 

[ericad]

We used to send our stones to GIA. We prefer GIA. But no one really noticed, lol. And it cost us sales. The reason is because our competitors use EGL and it's impossible to make an apples to apples comparison of a GIA stone to an EGL stone. For the uneducated consumer (our clients are not just PSers), if I say "my GIA K is equivalent to an EGL I. So you need to comp my stone to the other vendors' EGL I's. Yes, I know ours is a K and it's the same price as the other guy's I. That's because EGL is softer on grading. I swear. Trust me."

So we switched to EGL to make it easy for consumers to compare our stones to everyone else's.

If a buyer wants a GIA report, we'll happily send a stone to GIA - just ask. But we'll tell you not to expect the same grade. It will come back lower. If you want a GIA K, you need to target EGL I's. If a buyer wants an independent appraisal, we'll happily send the stone to Dave or any appraiser of the buyer's choosing. We've always been very transparent with our buyers about the looseness of EGL.

We're flexible, and are considering dual certing stones, however the downside is that GIA has a very slow turnaround time (we can't really afford for stones to sit for 4+ weeks without marketing them), so we're considering sending stones to EGL and listing them for sale, with the GIA reports to follow. But then if someone wants to buy the stone while it's at GIA, they'll have to wait for it to come back. We're spinning ourselves in circles about the logistics and how to handle it. We've had several dual certed stones in the past though, and I really like being able to offer both to consumers.

For this to change, consumers will have to demand GIA reports for antique goods. I encourage all to do so with whichever vendor you choose. Vendors will evolve to satisfy the needs of their clients.

 

[Gypsy]

Kenny and Haven, I only answered the OP's question, not that I agree with the industry standard (in fact I said I don't like it). And in order to effect change it is important to understand why things are the way they are. JBEG's explanation makes sense. If consumer's do not know about EGL's soft grading and how it compares to GIA, it's a disadvantage to have a GIA certificate in a world of inflated EGL certificates.

So the solution is, as always, education. So if you want to effect change IMO it's not enough to vote with your wallet. You have to pay your knowledge forward by putting in time to educate people about lab grading. That's why RT exists and why Pricescope is so powerful. I always appreciate it when I see new RT posters learning about diamonds and then turning around and helping others. So-- for me the solution is-- spend more time on RT educating new buyers and maybe we can effect some change.

Personally I'd like to see the GIA adopt more realistic standards for round old cuts.

 

[Dreamer_D]

1) Why is it not recommended to buy an EGL graded modern cut diamond but EGL antique diamonds are ok?

Because GIA has a strange method of classifying old cuts and very often labels them as "modern round brilliants" and grades their cut quality as poor. EGL is more consistent with its correct labelling of old cuts. Obviously, that is not an issue with modern round brilliants. Old cuts are a niche where EGL is the norm on the market.

2) Why is JbEG such a popular vendor with PS when they send almost all of their stones to EGL?. Note this is not a bash on JbEG btw, I'm genuinely curious as to why they're so popular when they send stones to a place that is generally not supported by the prosumers here.

See above.

3) If you take an EGL antique diamond over to GIA/AGS, what sort of grading is GIA/AGS likely to give it?

Who knows A rule of thumb seems to be about 2 color grades and maybe one or two clarity grades in the faint and very light yellow ranges (K-R). In the near colorless grades it is more for color. But since most old cuts either have NO lab reports or have EGL reports, you don't *really* need to know the GIA grades to determine market value. Moreover, CUT quality is NOT indexed on any reports accurately for oldies, and since that affects value tremendously, the lab reports become less impactful for old cuts in my experience than they are for modern cuts.

Old cuts are the wild wild west of diamonds The rules you think you know about judging diamonds quality don't apply in many ways. Caveat: Rap started metricing the value of color, carat, and clarity similarly for old cuts as for modern RBs recently.

ETA: And I posted before reading everyone else's two cents. My experience with old cuts is buying them on ebay with no papers and if I am lucky and appraisal that may or may not be accurate (FWIW the ones I have received have been accurate), so that is a very different scenerio to buying retail where a heftier price tag is attached. On ebay I find carat really drives prices, with really BROAD strokes color and clarity affecting things as well: LIke, "white" or "yellow" and "eye clean" or "black boogers".

The issue I raised concerning the dollar value of cut quality for old cuts would not be addressed by GIA reports, though. That is an unknown that still exerts a huge effect on pricing and it cannto be ignored. And no, it is not like other fancies in my opinion. By their nature I would argue there is WAY more variation in old cuts for cut quality/appearance -- and though all are lovely I think there is a consentual feeling of what are more beautiful and valuable cuts than others. I'm not convinced that lab reports would explain as large a proportion of variance in price as some consumers would like (i.e., the market will still be a little wild westish).

Here is a solution for retailers: What about using AGS for old cuts? They are reliable, have a report product that does not issue a cut grade, and I have heard they are faster. That is what Rino chose for his AVR line when GIA decided to label them as "round brilliants" with "poor" cut grades maybe it can work for other old cuts too.

 

[snoopkat]

Thank you all for your feedback, it's great to see opinions from both side of the fences.

Erica, this wasn't meant to be a blast about JbEG btw. I've seen a couple of videos you've posted on your site and your jewellery is stunning. JbEG was used as an example because you're the only vendor I know of that sells antique diamonds I do have another question, why have dual certification if you're prepared to stand by EGL's grading and if EGL is known to be more consistent in grading antique diamonds? If customers (assuming they've been on Pricescope) are asking for GIA certificate because this is what they've been told when they come here, then why not educate them that EGL is a better choice for antique diamonds? And if they don't believe you, they can always come back to PS to verify this. To me, dual certification suggests that a vendor is trying to cover all bases and having it both ways. I'm not insinuating that you wouuld do that, but some other vendors might.

 

[denverappraiser]

Recently I have been assisting a client in getting her stone ready for sale. It’s a slightly spready Euro but it faces up big, which is unusual in a Euro, and that's a popular feature. I graded it 2.41/K-L/VS. It's not a PS sort of stone but it's perfectly saleable goods. We sent it in to GIA for documentation. L/VS2 but they called it fair cut round brilliant. That’s a deal killer in everything but the recut market, not because of the clarity and color but because of the cut grade. Who wants to spend that kind of coin on a ‘fair’? Recut is going to be under 2.00cts so it’s not going to make sense to go this way. It’s on the way to EGL-USA for dual grading as we speak. I’m expecting J/VS1 with no cut grade at all.

 

[Circe]

One additional, practical point that I'd like to raise: EGL will grade a set stone. GIA will not. This affects the grading laxity, IMO - it really is very difficult to be precise when the body color is being influenced by its setting. But with a nice antique setting you don't want to destroy - fragile metal, bezels, the like - EGL makes a lot more sense.

Do I wish they could be a little more consistent, otherwise? Yep.

Would I personally take the word of an experienced appraiser over that of EGL? Maybe - the grader is a cipher to me, but I know (say) Dave Wolf is consistent.

But the cert adds value for people who don't know from diamonds or the field, so they keep churning them out.

 

[diagem]

I tend to agree with the critics against EGL (in general), the costs & time should not be an excuse for not sending the OldCut Diamonds to first tier Labs such as GIA and/or AGSL etc...
If we as professionals dont agree with EGL findings (in General) on modern cut Diamonds, than we should NOT accept it on OldCut Diamonds either!

Sellers of OldCuts should have no problem changing a GIA/AGSL "fair" grade as Neil called a "deal Killer' into a "deal winner"!
I have plenty of clients which prefer just this on their paperwork. Its just a matter of education and one beautiful "fair" OldCut!

I believe the turn around time at AGSL is pretty similar to EGL.

 

[denverappraiser]

AGSL is an interesting option. As Erica points out above, a dealer who unilaterally chose this path would have a significant competitive disadvantage because antique buyers don't seem to care as much as 'new' buyers about the choice of labs but evolution in this direction makes sense. AGSL has positioned themselves as experts in cutting and it's ironic that we're calling it a feature that they have a flavor of reporting that doesn't contain a cut grade where GIA does not offer this option.

 

[armywife13]

Thank you all for your feedback, it's great to see opinions from both side of the fences.

Erica, this wasn't meant to be a blast about JbEG btw. I've seen a couple of videos you've posted on your site and your jewellery is stunning. JbEG was used as an example because you're the only vendor I know of that sells antique diamonds I do have another question, why have dual certification if you're prepared to stand by EGL's grading and if EGL is known to be more consistent in grading antique diamonds? If customers (assuming they've been on Pricescope) are asking for GIA certificate because this is what they've been told when they come here, then why not educate them that EGL is a better choice for antique diamonds? And if they don't believe you, they can always come back to PS to verify this. To me, dual certification suggests that a vendor is trying to cover all bases and having it both ways. I'm not insinuating that you wouuld do that, but some other vendors might.

I dont think Erica was saying that EGL was more consistent in their grading(clarity/color), aside from labeling the diamonds as old cuts. She was saying that EGL is the standard for the antique diamond industry. As someone who spent a long time searching for my perfect OEC, I agree that most antique diamond vendors send to EGL.

I can understand their thought process for dual certifications. It will allow non-PSers to compare apples to apples with other vendors using EGL on antique diamonds. At the same time, it will allow PSers and other very educated buyers to recieve the accurate grading of color and clarity with GIA. I don't understand why it would be bad for a vendor to cover all bases for their customers and get both certs. To me, that would be them providing all the information and letting the customer make an educated decision, not the vendor "having it both ways." Plus, if there is a demand for GIA/AGS certs on antique diamonds, wouldn't it be a step in the right direction? It might spark consumers to ask other vendors to get GIA/AGS grading on their EGL stones. I think dual certifications could be a good transitional phase in switching the antique diamond industry to more accurate grading with GIA/AGS. But that is purely speculation, I am by no means an expert in the industry.

 

[ericad]

Thank you all for your feedback, it's great to see opinions from both side of the fences.

Erica, this wasn't meant to be a blast about JbEG btw. I've seen a couple of videos you've posted on your site and your jewellery is stunning. JbEG was used as an example because you're the only vendor I know of that sells antique diamonds I do have another question, why have dual certification if you're prepared to stand by EGL's grading and if EGL is known to be more consistent in grading antique diamonds? If customers (assuming they've been on Pricescope) are asking for GIA certificate because this is what they've been told when they come here, then why not educate them that EGL is a better choice for antique diamonds? And if they don't believe you, they can always come back to PS to verify this. To me, dual certification suggests that a vendor is trying to cover all bases and having it both ways. I'm not insinuating that you wouuld do that, but some other vendors might.

No worries!

Dual certing gives all consumers all possible information and transperancy and gives us a talking point to begin a dialog about the differences between labs with consumers who don't understand - I don't see how or why this would be perceived negatively. Honestly, we use the labs for color, clarity, measurements and fluorescence and to determine pricing. We don't even look at cut grades, Round Brilliant versus Old European, etc. because for old cuts, you just can't rely on that. For this we use our eyes and our experience.

GIA is stricter with color and clarity, therefore better for the consumer. We don't "stand by" EGL as being more right than GIA. In the lower colors, EGL has proven to be more consistent in grading for us than GIA (we've had color grades of cape stones come back all over the place with GIA), but overall I don't think anyone would argue that EGL is a superior choice for consumers.

Dual certing stones will also blast some sunlight on the differences between EGL and GIA. There's no consistent rule of thumb. Recently we had an EGL stone (Los Angeles) come back the same as GIA, which blows our earlier rule of thumb of 1-2 color grades totally out of the water and messed us up in pricing the stone (we bought it with a GIA report, assuming the usual EGL conversion, price comped it to other EGL stones in that assumed range, sent it to EGL and it came back the same as GIA and we lost money because of our incorrect judgment when assessing our purchase price).

Whatever you're buying, the key is to make apples to apples comparisons. Then, when you find something you love and it's priced well against other EGL stones, if a GIA or AGS report is important to you simply ask your vendor and accept that the results are likely to be lower and that your vendor has already factored this into the pricing.

If I'm being completely honest here, our GIA-only stones sit in the store for ages. They don't sell. We have no trouble selling EGL stones. The simple fact is that EGL is the accepted standard for old cuts, but as I said before, if GIA/AGS is important to you as a consumer, begin demanding it of your vendors. Perhaps GIA won't replace EGL anytime soon, but if an old cut vendor begins getting buyers who want a GIA report, the tide will begin to turn.

 

[ericad]

I tend to agree with the critics against EGL (in general), the costs & time should not be an excuse for not sending the OldCut Diamonds to first tier Labs such as GIA and/or AGSL etc...

This may be the case for large dealers, but we're small. Tiny by comparison to most. Truly, we can't afford to sit on a single stone for 1-2 weeks for EGL, then another 4 weeks for GIA, before even listing it to the site. Someday I hope that we can, but at this stage in our growing small business, it's a reality for us that we're trying to overcome.

 

[diagem]

I tend to agree with the critics against EGL (in general), the costs & time should not be an excuse for not sending the OldCut Diamonds to first tier Labs such as GIA and/or AGSL etc...

This may be the case for large dealers, but we're small. Tiny by comparison to most. Truly, we can't afford to sit on a single stone for 1-2 weeks for EGL, then another 4 weeks for GIA, before even listing it to the site. Someday I hope that we can, but at this stage in our growing small business, it's a reality for us that we're trying to overcome.

I fully understand, it's time to think forward...
With so much buzz lately behind "Fair trade Diamonds", the more I think about it the more I believe EGL will disappear unless they start aligning themselves with the "Standard" developed by GIA.

In the mean time I will remind professionals on the new trend (as Martin Rapaport points out) evolving in our industry..., we are each "individually" responsible for what we market and it should be made clear on each invoice!
Marketing EGL graded Diamonds might become a reputational risk.

 

[ericad]

I tend to agree with the critics against EGL (in general), the costs & time should not be an excuse for not sending the OldCut Diamonds to first tier Labs such as GIA and/or AGSL etc...

This may be the case for large dealers, but we're small. Tiny by comparison to most. Truly, we can't afford to sit on a single stone for 1-2 weeks for EGL, then another 4 weeks for GIA, before even listing it to the site. Someday I hope that we can, but at this stage in our growing small business, it's a reality for us that we're trying to overcome.

I fully understand, it's time to think forward...
With so much buzz lately behind "Fair trade Diamonds", the more I think about it the more I believe EGL will disappear unless they start aligning themselves with the "Standard" developed by GIA.

In the mean time I will remind professionals on the new trend (as Martin Rapaport points out) evolving in our industry..., we are each "individually" responsible for what we market and it should be made clear on each invoice!
Marketing EGL graded Diamonds might become a reputational risk.

I can assure you that, as the tide turns towards GIA (specific to antique stones), we will be among the first adopters. But until that happens, using GIA puts us at a disadvantage in the marketplace. Dual certing stones in the interim is a good middle ground if we can overcome some obstacles (I'm sure we can). The industry views on GIA versus EGL as they apply to modern goods is a very different ball of wax from the much smaller niche of antique diamonds and jewelry.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Thank you all for your feedback, it's great to see opinions from both side of the fences.

Erica, this wasn't meant to be a blast about JbEG btw. I've seen a couple of videos you've posted on your site and your jewellery is stunning. JbEG was used as an example because you're the only vendor I know of that sells antique diamonds I do have another question, why have dual certification if you're prepared to stand by EGL's grading and if EGL is known to be more consistent in grading antique diamonds? If customers (assuming they've been on Pricescope) are asking for GIA certificate because this is what they've been told when they come here, then why not educate them that EGL is a better choice for antique diamonds? And if they don't believe you, they can always come back to PS to verify this. To me, dual certification suggests that a vendor is trying to cover all bases and having it both ways. I'm not insinuating that you wouuld do that, but some other vendors might.

I think your logic is showing a common error that people newer to diamonds can make, indeed I think the vast majority of consumers believe this falsehood: that the papers somehow "make" the diamond. In fact the diamond is what it is and the papers are a tool for consumers -- and vendors -- to help them determine fair market value for a diamond. Appraisals function the same way. A single diamond can have different ratings by GIA, EGL, and an independent appraiser but it is still the same diamond. It is then up to the consumer and the vendor to agree on a fair price using all that information. To me, more information is better. I would be happy to buy a stone with six different lab reports It makes it easier to find comps and easier to understand what I am gettting (barring the confusion that huge grade spreads can create).

I'm not sure what the "both ways" is you refer to? Tryign to trick the consumer AND inform them? I see no downside to dual certing for the consumer.

And the previous poster is correct that EGL is not more consistent than GIA with old cuts, nto for color and clarity at least; they are more consistent in description of the cut style.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Recently I have been assisting a client in getting her stone ready for sale. It’s a slightly spready Euro but it faces up big, which is unusual in a Euro, and that's a popular feature. I graded it 2.41/K-L/VS. It's not a PS sort of stone but it's perfectly saleable goods. We sent it in to GIA for documentation. L/VS2 but they called it fair cut round brilliant. That’s a deal killer in everything but the recut market, not because of the clarity and color but because of the cut grade. Who wants to spend that kind of coin on a ‘fair’? Recut is going to be under 2.00cts so it’s not going to make sense to go this way. It’s on the way to EGL-USA for dual grading as we speak. I’m expecting J/VS1 with no cut grade at all.

Neil's post bring up an excellent point for me.
If one is buying and selling OEC's, they are traded off the Round List.
OMB's, on the other hand, trade off the lower priced Fancy Shape list.
However any relationship to the list is ONLY valid if one is using GIA/AGSL grades.
EGL reports are just as easily dismissed by dealers/cutters for antique diamonds, as they are for modern ones.
SO- even taking into account the "fair" cut grade, the higher priced list means the stone referred to above is actually getting more benefit from the GIA report than it will from an EGL report if it's being sold to the trade- or a knowledgeable buyer.

I don't see any grey area here.
If a seller want to advertise accurate, industry accepted grades, they have to come from GIA or AGSL.
15 years ago every dealer I knew threw away a report that called a diamond Y-Z, and sent it to EGL which would call it Fancy Yellow.
I resisted that urge, and today Y-Z is an accepted and asked for grade.
JMO Erica- but I believe that your thoughts about loosing clients due dependence on looser EGL grades reports is not true- in fact, it might be the other way around.
(BTW, GIA does grade stones that are set- just that it's not as specific, they'll use approximate measurement, and split grade)

 

[diagem]

I tend to agree with the critics against EGL (in general), the costs & time should not be an excuse for not sending the OldCut Diamonds to first tier Labs such as GIA and/or AGSL etc...

This may be the case for large dealers, but we're small. Tiny by comparison to most. Truly, we can't afford to sit on a single stone for 1-2 weeks for EGL, then another 4 weeks for GIA, before even listing it to the site. Someday I hope that we can, but at this stage in our growing small business, it's a reality for us that we're trying to overcome.

I fully understand, it's time to think forward...
With so much buzz lately behind "Fair trade Diamonds", the more I think about it the more I believe EGL will disappear unless they start aligning themselves with the "Standard" developed by GIA.

In the mean time I will remind professionals on the new trend (as Martin Rapaport points out) evolving in our industry..., we are each "individually" responsible for what we market and it should be made clear on each invoice!
Marketing EGL graded Diamonds might become a reputational risk.

I can assure you that, as the tide turns towards GIA (specific to antique stones), we will be among the first adopters. But until that happens, using GIA puts us at a disadvantage in the marketplace. Dual certing stones in the interim is a good middle ground if we can overcome some obstacles (I'm sure we can). The industry views on GIA versus EGL as they apply to modern goods is a very different ball of wax from the much smaller niche of antique diamonds and jewelry.

I keep reading EGL is the industry standard Lab for Antique Cuts..., well that claim/fact is not entirely true across the board!
Maybe you (and others) can agree with this standard for yellowish (lower colored) Old Cuts in the "US" market but defenitely not for OldCuts in general!
On the yellowish OldCuts I can (maybe) see some sense as consistency accross all Labs is lacking, but this doesn't give EGL more credibility.

You can't be the first adopters as its being implemented already for years (I have not handled an EGL graded diamond for years). Today, with issues like consumer confidence, fair trade etc.. on top of the industry agenda's, finding a creative path to market fair graded Diamonds is part of the equation. I believe small niche businesses in our industry need to use these limitations and upgrade their business models to focus on added value features. Marketing OldCuts with an AGSL (as example) grading document can be translated to extra value. Sometimes differentiating yourself from an errored standard is a good start.

I realy can't see how current businesses will survive unless they change with the winds of change. Beware, strong winds are just above the horizon.

 

[Dreamer_D]

From a prosumer perspective, I can absolutely see the point that erica is making about the issues of a) educating all potential buyers about the difference between EGL and GIA and b) ensuring that their prospective buyers can adequately compare prices accorss vendors. Here in RT I cannot count how many times I have written about EGL and its issues. And in most cases it falls on deaf ears. It matters not to me if no one listens, but when a sale is at stake... its easy to SAY be the trailblazer. It is not so easy to do when money is concerned and one is a TRUE small business like I think JBEG currently is, with I believe TWO employees? No other PS regular poster or vendor operates such a small niche business to me knowledge. I do not envy that situation of trying to be ethical and clear but also work in a very unconventional market (old cuts).

On a related aside, we have seen a number of times on these boards where a much larger scale operation, Old World Diamonds, seems to sell diamonds with no lab reports at all. And the buyers either get appraisals themselves or trust OWD`s grade. Now that is something I would like to see change.

 

[armywife13]

From a prosumer perspective, I can absolutely see the point that erica is making about the issues of a) educating all potential buyers about the difference between EGL and GIA and b) ensuring that their prospective buyers can adequately compare prices accorss vendors. Here in RT I cannot count how many times I have written about EGL and its issues. And in most cases it falls on deaf ears. It matters not to me if no one listens, but when a sale is at stake... its easy to SAY be the trailblazer. It is not so easy to do when money is concerned and one is a TRUE small business like I think JBEG currently is, with I believe TWO employees? No other PS regular poster or vendor operates such a small niche business to me knowledge. I do not envy that situation of trying to be ethical and clear but also work in a very unconventional market (old cuts).

On a related aside, we have seen a number of times on these boards where a much larger scale operation, Old World Diamonds, seems to sell diamonds with no lab reports at all. And the buyers either get appraisals themselves or trust OWD`s grade. Now that is something I would like to see change.

I completely agree with the entire post, well said.

You bring up a good point about vendors selling with no certifications. If there is an issue purchasing with EGL certs, then why is it not an issue purchasing with no cert?

 

[yssie]

Some interesting thoughts in this thread!

I *really* like the idea of choosing an AGSL report without cut grade for loose stones - that way consumers get the surety of colour and clarity they're looking for without a cut grade muddying the waters. It doesn't matter whether or not the customer truly understands and accepts that these stones weren't designed for performance by modern cut grade/light performance metrics and therefore that judging them by those metrics is both unfair and useless, or that the labs' nomenclature and definitions may be inaccurate, since there's nothing on the report to judge with.

For set stones Circe is spot on - EGL may well be the only acceptable choice!

I also agree w/ Dreamer - there is no reason for a larger organisation not to make acquiring a report for each loose stone the standard, especially one that PSers commonly recommend and patronise.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I'd love to believe different DD- I mean about falling on deaf ears.
What I see is many different ways of shopping. Some people shop by price.
I shop by price- if I'm buying a car
But not when I'm shopping for a service for that car.
At that point, I want the best service possible- as opposed to the cheapest.

Some people will always gravitate towards price- and EGL graded stones.
But it's NEVER a waste of time educating- enough people DO get it.

ETA- Yssie- GIA does grade set stones.

 

[snoopkat]

I'm not sure what the "both ways" is you refer to? Tryign to trick the consumer AND inform them? I see no downside to dual certing for the consumer.

And the previous poster is correct that EGL is not more consistent than GIA with old cuts, nto for color and clarity at least; they are more consistent in description of the cut style.

Perhaps that could've been worded better (in my defense, it was late and I had 2 large glasses of wine ). What I was trying to say with dual certification is that a vendor might get both GIA and EGL reports for the same stone and then decide to only produce the 'better' certificate to the consumer. But if both certificates are produced for the consumer to make a like with like comparison as Erica said, then that's ok.

Out of curiousity, has any vendor ever had GIA come back with an evaluation that is better than EGL? i.e. EGL might have graded a stone L/M and GIA graded it I/J?

One of 3 things I've read on PS over and over again is that cut is king. Why doesn't GIA grade cut if it's one of the top determining factors in diamond purchase?

 

[yssie]

ETA- Yssie- GIA does grade set stones.

Well, I learnt something new today!
GIA will grade set D-Zs then? Do they assign a single grade or a range? (Re. colour/clarity)
Will they also grade FCDs set? (I assume not)
Have you ever submitted a set stone to GIA for grading? What did you think of the outcome?

 

[Dreamer_D]

I'm not sure what the "both ways" is you refer to? Tryign to trick the consumer AND inform them? I see no downside to dual certing for the consumer.

And the previous poster is correct that EGL is not more consistent than GIA with old cuts, nto for color and clarity at least; they are more consistent in description of the cut style.

Perhaps that could've been worded better (in my defense, it was late and I had 2 large glasses of wine ). What I was trying to say with dual certification is that a vendor might get both GIA and EGL reports for the same stone and then decide to only produce the 'better' certificate to the consumer. But if both certificates are produced for the consumer to make a like with like comparison as Erica said, then that's ok.

Out of curiousity, has any vendor ever had GIA come back with an evaluation that is better than EGL? i.e. EGL might have graded a stone L/M and GIA graded it I/J?

One of 3 things I've read on PS over and over again is that cut is king. Why doesn't GIA grade cut if it's one of the top determining factors in diamond purchase?

I doubt anyone would go through the expense of having a stone certed by both entities to them choose which one to use. People tend to target one lab or another based on the stones parameters and which lab will garner more money. EGL trades at a reduction from GIA prices, BUT for some stones the GIA grade would actually trade for much less than EGL. Like, an I1 or a Fair cut grade is almost a death knell for some diamonds, but send it to EGL and get an SI2 and a Very good cut grade and you are back in business! In general you need to assume a stone with an EGL report is trading for more than the same stone would trade for with a GIA report -- otherwise, why send it to EGL?

But this rule does not apply to old cuts for all the reasons above. EGL is still not in the interests of consumers, but the same assumptions about why a stone was sentto EGL don't apply to old cuts because it is just more normative.

There have been cases of GIA grading better than EGL, I think at the very low end of the color spectrum. There is an example of JBEG right now. But its not common.

Creating a cut standard is really hard. Modern RBs are the only shape with cut grading by GIA. AGS grades princesses and cushions in addition to rounds.

 

[junebug17]

ETA- Yssie- GIA does grade set stones.

Well, I learnt something new today!
GIA will grade set D-Zs then? Do they assign a single grade or a range? (Re. colour/clarity)
Will they also grade FCDs set? (I assume not)
Have you ever submitted a set stone to GIA for grading? What did you think of the outcome?

I was looking around on the GIA website and found this

For GIA Diamond Grading Reports and Diamond Dossier services, we only accept loose (unmounted) diamonds. Mounted stones are accepted for Verification, Colored Diamond Identification and Origin grading services, depending upon the setting or mounting.

ETA: Is verification similar to grading a diamond?

 

[Gypsy]

Creating a cut standard is really hard. Modern RBs are the only shape with cut grading by GIA. AGS grades princesses and cushions in addition to rounds.

This. Also cut is king on PS. And the fact that AGS now has cut parameters means that this train of thought is gaining momentum and speed and influence in the industry as a whole. But it's still not industry standard, that's why GIA doesn't really need to do it as strictly as AGS. GIA DOES grade cut on RB's though, it's just that the GIA excellent is looser than the AGS0.

Snoopkat, you are assuming that what we preach on PS is what is preached worldwide in the industry. It's not. Why do you think that we recommend the same vendors over and over? Because they are PS inducted and understand our perspective and priorities. But that perspective and priority is still a minority one. It costs A LOT more money to cut an ideal cut stone than a crappy cut stone. And if your consumers don't know the difference, then why bother to produce ideal cut stones? As the consumer market place gets more educated (and PS is a tool that promotes this admirably) then supply dictates demand and more vendors take notice.

Go into Macys sometimes and ask them to talk to you about diamond cut. They will show you the different shapes diamonds come in. That's what they consider cut. And unfortunately, that's not unusual.