Liability and ungraded stones

[Michael_E]

I wonder what negative buzz on PS does to sales of gems and books.

Not much, or at least not what you might imagine. A few posters being irritated by getting their feelings hurt or feeling that they weren't treated all that well by anyone else, really has little effect. Richard is wrong about one thing here and that is that the numbers of lurkers is probably 4 to 10 times greater than the numbers of posters and the lurkers are the ones doing most of the buzzing. Most of the "buzz" is not what is being said in a negative or positive manner by posters, by what gets said and thought behind the scenes. While Pricescope as an entity has quite a bit of influence, the individual posters don't have quite as much influence as they might want to have. It's kind of like a fishbowl, some people are watching the fish while most are just looking at the pretty gravel.

 

[T L]

I wonder what negative buzz on PS does to sales of gems and books.

Not much, or at least not what you might imagine. A few posters being irritated by getting their feelings hurt or feeling that they weren't treated all that well by anyone else, really has little effect. Richard is wrong about one thing here and that is that the numbers of lurkers is probably 4 to 10 times greater than the numbers of posters and the lurkers are the ones doing most of the buzzing. Most of the "buzz" is not what is being said in a negative or positive manner by posters, by what gets said and thought behind the scenes. While Pricescope as an entity has quite a bit of influence, the individual posters don't have quite as much influence as they might want to have. It's kind of like a fishbowl, some people are watching the fish while most are just looking at the pretty gravel.

Very interesting Micahel. I didn't know you were a mind reader in that you know for a fact that a few people were upset about Richard's comments, but you know exactly how many people lurk here. If there were so many lurkers, as you say, then I would be more careful as a vendor to not upset others.

I really wasn't going to say anything, but I have to defend people here, because I think this forum deserves it, and I think the members really care about others.

 

[morecarats]

The Pricescope effect can be quantified to some degree by looking at the Alexa rankings of websites selling loose gemstones. Considering that gemstones is a rather specialized business, Pricescope has an extraordinarily high ranking -- in the top 100,000 websites worldwide. And many of the vendors discussed on Pricescope are pulling a lot of traffic. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that Pricescope is helping generate that traffic.

Here are some Alexa rankings for sites on the Pricescope vendor list (lower numbers indicate a higher ranking):

acstones.com 1,977,842

africagems.com 546,211

ajsgems.com 2,622,833

artcutgems.com 11,566,240

awesomegems.com 908,211

cherrypicked.com 115,415

customgemstones.com 6,082,224

faceters.com 733,451

gemfix.com 6,519,191

gemselect.com 113,364

kashmirblue.com 7,085,159

mastercutgems.com 24,020,469

multicolour.com 323,121

palagems.com 448,034

paraibainternational.com 676,635

precisiongem.com 5,647,353

pricescope.com 78,054

rwwise.com 2,465,843

simplysapphires.com 2,374,194

thenaturalsapphirecompany.com 333,573

wildfishgems.com 1,955,302

winkjones.com 4,983,619

 

[chrono]

MC,
Do you have the link for Alexa to explain the rankings? Without fully understanding how this is done, the numbers have no meaning.

 

[morecarats]

Alexa (http://www.alexa.com) ranks sites according to the traffic they draw. The sites that draw the most traffic get the highest ranking. Another well known traffic measurement site is Quantcast (http://www.quantcast.com/).

 

[T L]

Well, maybe these sites are mentioned here, but I know for a fact that NSC does not have a very good reputation in this particular subforum (others may disagree) and they have a low number, which you stated indicates a high rating.

Word of mouth and excellent customer service are very important advertisers as well, and they should not be underestimated IMHO. There's just way too many variables to consider why a site is popular or not. While PS may be a factor, unless a study is done, it cannot be stated how much influence PS has with definitive fact.

 

[Aoife]

I wonder what negative buzz on PS does to sales of gems and books.

Not much, or at least not what you might imagine. A few posters being irritated by getting their feelings hurt or feeling that they weren't treated all that well by anyone else, really has little effect. Richard is wrong about one thing here and that is that the numbers of lurkers is probably 4 to 10 times greater than the numbers of posters and the lurkers are the ones doing most of the buzzing. Most of the "buzz" is not what is being said in a negative or positive manner by posters, by what gets said and thought behind the scenes. While Pricescope as an entity has quite a bit of influence, the individual posters don't have quite as much influence as they might want to have. It's kind of like a fishbowl, some people are watching the fish while most are just looking at the pretty gravel.

Very interesting Micahel. I didn't know you were a mind reader in that you know for a fact that a few people were upset about Richard's comments, but you know exactly how many people lurk here. If there were so many lurkers, as you say, then I would be more careful as a vendor to not upset others.

I really wasn't going to say anything, but I have to defend people here, because I think this forum deserves it, and I think the members really care about others.

In general, forums will have many, many more people who lurk than those who register, or post even occasionally. For some sites, the numbers can be as large as 50 times as many lurkers as regular or semi-regular posters. Some forums where I am a regular visitor track unique hits vs. regular visitors, as well as number of posts, and the number of silent visitors can be mind boggling.

 

[T L]

I wonder what negative buzz on PS does to sales of gems and books.

Not much, or at least not what you might imagine. A few posters being irritated by getting their feelings hurt or feeling that they weren't treated all that well by anyone else, really has little effect. Richard is wrong about one thing here and that is that the numbers of lurkers is probably 4 to 10 times greater than the numbers of posters and the lurkers are the ones doing most of the buzzing. Most of the "buzz" is not what is being said in a negative or positive manner by posters, by what gets said and thought behind the scenes. While Pricescope as an entity has quite a bit of influence, the individual posters don't have quite as much influence as they might want to have. It's kind of like a fishbowl, some people are watching the fish while most are just looking at the pretty gravel.

Very interesting Micahel. I didn't know you were a mind reader in that you know for a fact that a few people were upset about Richard's comments, but you know exactly how many people lurk here. If there were so many lurkers, as you say, then I would be more careful as a vendor to not upset others.

I really wasn't going to say anything, but I have to defend people here, because I think this forum deserves it, and I think the members really care about others.

In general, forums will have many, many more people who lurk than those who register, or post even occasionally. For some sites, the numbers can be as large as 50 times as many lurkers as regular or semi-regular posters. Some forums where I am a regular visitor track unique hits vs. regular visitors, as well as number of posts, and the number of silent visitors can be mind boggling.

Aofie,
I do not disagree with you, but are there actual statistics on how many people lurk here? Does PS keep track of it somewhere? I'm unsure about how many lurkers there are because in general, gems and jewelery are probably not as hot a topic as what Brad Pitt and Jennifer Aniston are doing. I know that's probably not the best analogy, but I don't know for a fact how many lurkers are here, so I don't want to definitively say there are X amount of lurkers. While I think PS does have some influence over some people, I don't know for a fact it has the type of influence that others are saying it does. I actually wish it did because I think PS s a valuable resource, and I often mention it to people that are looking for an e-ring or gemstone.

 

[morecarats]

Well, maybe these sites are mentioned here, but I know for a fact that NSC does not have a very good reputation in this particular subforum (others may disagree) and they have a low number, which you stated indicates a high rating.

Word of mouth and excellent customer service are very important advertisers as well, and they should not be underestimated IMHO. There's just way too many variables to consider why a site is popular or not. While PS may be a factor, unless a study is done, it cannot be stated how much influence PS has with definitive fact.

The Alexa numbers are traffic rankings, not ratings. All they tell is which sites are more popular than others, based on the number of visitors to those sites. However, it's generally true in the internet world that the ecommerce sites that draw a lot of traffic tend to sell more than sites with less traffic. I guess it's possible that some gemstone sites are successful despite Pricescope opinion. Or perhaps there is some truth in the maxim that "there is no such thing as bad publicity (except your own obituary)".

 

[Aoife]

[
Aofie,
I do not disagree with you, but are there actual statistics on how many people lurk here? Does PS keep track of it somewhere? I'm unsure about how many lurkers there are because in general, gems and jewelery are probably not as hot a topic as what Brad Pitt and Jennifer Aniston are doing. I know that's probably not the best analogy, but I don't know for a fact how many lurkers are here, so I don't want to definitively say there are X amount of lurkers. While I think PS does have some influence over some people, I don't know for a fact it has the type of influence that others are saying it does. I actually wish it did because I think PS s a valuable resource, and I often mention it to people that are looking for an e-ring or gemstone.

I was really just making a comment about forums in general, especially very active forums such as the ones here on PS. Like you, I would be very interested in seeing the actual statistics pertaining to PS, but more for a kind of generalized interest than anything else. Extrapolating any kind of data about influence from those stats would be risky at best. What I do find interesting are the anecdotes by different tradespeople here (Michael E., Gene, Richard, etc.,) that PS is seen as either influential or a source of irritation,( ex: the "cacklers" comment) by some vendors. The "influence" of PS may be limited, but when a website produces irritation or derision, it at least means it is being noticed, and there are implications in that.

 

[Lovinggems]

Well, maybe these sites are mentioned here, but I know for a fact that NSC does not have a very good reputation in this particular subforum (others may disagree) and they have a low number, which you stated indicates a high rating.

Word of mouth and excellent customer service are very important advertisers as well, and they should not be underestimated IMHO. There's just way too many variables to consider why a site is popular or not. While PS may be a factor, unless a study is done, it cannot be stated how much influence PS has with definitive fact.

The Alexa numbers are traffic rankings, not ratings. All they tell is which sites are more popular than others, based on the number of visitors to those sites. However, it's generally true in the internet world that the ecommerce sites that draw a lot of traffic tend to sell more than sites with less traffic. I guess it's possible that some gemstone sites are successful despite Pricescope opinion. Or perhaps there is some truth in the maxim that "there is no such thing as bad publicity (except your own obituary)".

Can they measure, I don't know how it works, e.g. 1 ip address visited pricescope and another website? That'll be a better indicator.

 

[Kismet]

On the old site you could see that there were 50-100 registered and 1500+ unregistered users (for the whole website, not just this forum). When the new version rolled out you could see how many people were browsing a particular forum. We can't see that anymore but I imagine that they still track it.

 

[chrono]

I know with the old PS layout, I can see how many lurkers there are compared to actual members being online at any given time. Each time I looked, it seems the number of lurkers is more than double or even triple the current online members.

ETA
I see that Kismet has said the same thing a few seconds earlier than me.

 

[RockHugger]

I remember back when we had the Mahenge attack on here, and they were still pretty low in price. Then a month or so passed and prices started quickly rising. Then when I was browsing The tube, I stopped at jtv, and saw...a mahenge spinel selling for 1000$/ct!

I had never heard of a mahenge before pricescope, and then all of a sudden after the big mahenge boom of 2010 on here, everyone wants one.

Conikidink?

I think we should get special price discounts from the mines for promoting their stones! Haha.

 

[chrono]

RH,
Actually, Pricescopers do get discounts from select vendors. I think GemSelect, Litnon and a few others offer quite a hefty discount (up to 30%) if you mention you are a Pricescoper.

 

[VapidLapid]

Scroll down to the bottom of the page. RIght now there are 104 registered members and 237 guests. I caution anyone about interpreting statistics and drawing conclusions. Conclusions are rarely supported by the statistics they are derived from.

 

[LD]

I wonder what negative buzz on PS does to sales of gems and books.

Not much, or at least not what you might imagine. A few posters being irritated by getting their feelings hurt or feeling that they weren't treated all that well by anyone else, really has little effect. Richard is wrong about one thing here and that is that the numbers of lurkers is probably 4 to 10 times greater than the numbers of posters and the lurkers are the ones doing most of the buzzing. Most of the "buzz" is not what is being said in a negative or positive manner by posters, by what gets said and thought behind the scenes. While Pricescope as an entity has quite a bit of influence, the individual posters don't have quite as much influence as they might want to have. It's kind of like a fishbowl, some people are watching the fish while most are just looking at the pretty gravel.

Michael I am very bemused by this comment. Why on earth would people want to have influence on this Site? To what end? I can understand a Vendor wanting to project a good impression and create a positive influence but what does Mr or Mrs Joe Public gain? I come on here to chat with other like-minded individuals about my passion for gemstones and jewellery. I like to sometimes share my purchases and will ask for assistance occasionally. If somebody wants to find a gemstone or has a particular issue and has invited comments, if I think I can help I will. If I can't, I won't but will often read the responses as a learning tool. So I'm not particularly sure how influence plays a part. I could understand it if certain members were "pushing" certain vendors but in this part of the forum I don't believe that's the case. When somebody asks for suggestions, you tend to see a myriad of vendor suggestions proposed.

In the diamond forum I can see how this is different and wouldn't disagree that for diamond buying there is much more of an influence to be had.

Perhaps I'm naive! I just see this forum as fun and sometimes learning!

 

[T L]

RH,
Gem Shopping Network also sells many Mahenge spinels. They want over $1K/ct, and $2K to $3K for exceptional stones of large sizes, but I think their own advertising does help advance sales. The fancy camera lighting also helps too.

 

[T L]

Michael I am very bemused by this comment. Why on earth would people want to have influence on this Site? To what end?

It's a secret conspiracy of a certain clique of people here, don't you know LD?

 

[RockHugger]

Tl, that's why I'm glad I bought mine when I did! I paid 1/10th of the current price. It's a shame I love them too mich to ever sell them haha!

 

[VapidLapid]

I never got a proper mahenge and now it's too late. Guess I'll have to settle for a burma

 

[Michael_E]

Michael I am very bemused by this comment. Why on earth would people want to have influence on this Site? To what end?

Excellent LovingDiamonds, that comment was put there for just that reason. To what end? Why total world domination of course!

My point is not that there is anyone here who has a grand plan about influencing the world of gems and diamonds. My point is that there are only a handful of consistent posters, on any forum, who have strongly held opinions which they are willing to share and that even though they have the lions share of posts, that their influence about anything pales compared to the pictures and comments which are posted by other members who post less frequently, but with more concentrated information when they do post.

Vapid Lapid mentioned that there are over 300 people watching this site right now. How many will post today on this part of the site and how many will come by and have a look? How many will buy something based on images and or text which has the information that they came here looking for and how many are influenced by small perceived affronts which blow up? I don't know, but I would imagine not too many.


From TL,

Very interesting Micahel. I didn't know you were a mind reader in that you know for a fact that a few people were upset about Richard's comments, but you know exactly how many people lurk here. If there were so many lurkers, as you say, then I would be more careful as a vendor to not upset others.

TL, some one being upset is pretty easy to pick up, especially when they say that they are upset, but yes I am a mind reader. Unfortunately I am a very bad at it and that's why I'm here. I like to see what people think and how trends go towards different stones, colors, styles, etc. The lurker thing is pretty obvious just looking at the numbers as mentioned above. Since many of them come here to see images and get info related to gems, the discussions regarding anyone being upset about business practices or personal affronts generally have little effect on those lurkers buying decisions, (otherwise I can think of several vendors who would be goners by now). What would influence their buying decisions would be some sort of unethical behavior being reported over and over again, and that just doesn't happen very often, at least not with established vendors.

Just my two cents worth and two cents is being generous.

 

[LD]

The Jewellery Channel in the UK (part of the larger STS group) are selling Mahenges but definitely not at such high prices! It just goes to show that price depends where you buy from!

For example, they're currently selling a (very pretty) pear shaped Mahenge spinel 2.11ct set into white gold with miniscule accent diamonds for £200 (that's about $300) so $150 per carat (or thereabouts).

Edit: Sorry Michael have just seen your reply - didn't mean to ignore you! Actually your comment about people (lurkers or otherwise) not being affected by seeing people have a negative experience on here I don't agree with. There's a thread running at the moment in the diamond section where somebody has had a custom ring made and it hasn't gone well. There have been a number of posters (quite a lot actually) all asking for the vendor to be named (it's pretty obvious who the vendor is) and some saying they wouldn't buy from that particular vendor. This happened on this part of the forum with NSC a while ago also. The way their CEO conducted himself on here was abhorent and there are a number of posters who wouldn't recommend or even buy from them because of this. It's difficult to quantify and nobody can be sure but it's fairly safe to assume that the way Vendors conduct themselves on here is absolutely critical and will mean the difference between a sale and a potential lost sale. There are some who won't deal with a Vendor/company specifically because of what they read on here. So in terms of influence - yes, I guess that is a factor. Also, if I am going to use a new vendor I will usually do a Google search. That usually is very telling!!!

 

[Pandora II]

One thing I can say about lurkers is that there are very few of us who post here from the UK and yet people in the trade in London have told me that many customers are coming in to buy diamonds armed with a PS check-list.

Not so sure on the coloured stones as they're rather harder to get a crib sheet for, but one of my UK dealers was telling me that he's seeing a sudden rise in demand for certain types of the lesser known varieties - those he named are ones that are seen fairly regularly round here.

I don't think shopping channels have a big influence in the UK - even amongst my classmates very few watch it at all and they're all gemnuts.


On prices I don't think you can be 'overcharged' - prices are what they are and if a customer will pay that then the vendor has every right to what he can make. Many on PS prefer not to pay B&M or brand-name prices as you can get an equally good or better stone for a lot less elsewhere, but while I think Tiffany is overpriced those who appreciate blue cardboard do not.

I'm not rich at all, but even if vendors are passionate about their product and enjoy their jobs, they still have mortgages to pay, kids to feed etc and there is nothing wrong in charging what the market will support. If you are a savvy buyer and a vendor is keen to pursue a relationship with you then they are likely to adjust the price to something both are happy with.

Having bought both at source and at trade prices I have a fairly good idea of what mark-ups there are on stones - I don't expect to pay what I would pay in Chantaburi or even in Hatton Garden if I'm buying at end consumer prices let alone retail. I also know the effort, expense, time and often danger that is involved in bringing gemstones to the final consumer to say nothing of the skill and years of practice and education needed to buy successfully and to cut stones.

Obviously vendors shouldn't misrepresent their products - and treatments in particular should definitely be disclosed, but as far as origin is concerned even digging it out of the ground yourself isn't a 100% guarantee and it is up to the customer to protect themselves by having a lab report done on a stone if they require specifics. It doesn't make commercial sense for the vendor to have every stone in their inventory checked over - plenty of buyers just want a 'pretty ruby' and don't really care too much about the origin or even treatments.

 

[LD]

I don't think shopping channels have a big influence in the UK - even amongst my classmates very few watch it at all and they're all gemnuts.

I disagree. They sell to a huge market BUT for those who are not gemnuts! Why would you buy from a shopping channel where disclosure about treatments is almost impossible to attain!? For somebody who just wants a ruby (but doesn't care whether it's dyed, filled etc etc) but is pretty, red and already in a setting then it's a haven! For gemnuts who want a natural, unheated gemstone with a report from a reputable lab then there's no way that a shopping channel would cut the mustard!

 

[T L]

On prices I don't think you can be 'overcharged' - prices are what they are and if a customer will pay that then the vendor has every right to what he can make. Many on PS prefer not to pay B&M or brand-name prices as you can get an equally good or better stone for a lot less elsewhere, but while I think Tiffany is overpriced those who appreciate blue cardboard do not.

In that sense, I look for value for my money. As I stated earlier in this thread, you cannot be overcharged from a legal standpoint, and any vendor can charge what they want, even $1K/ct for a CZ. However, I do think there is overcharging in the consumer/value standpoint. Tiffany is a good example of that type of overcharging and the people that shop there are not really getting a good value, but buying a "name." JMO.

 

[T L]

Obviously vendors shouldn't misrepresent their products - and treatments in particular should definitely be disclosed, but as far as origin is concerned even digging it out of the ground yourself isn't a 100% guarantee and it is up to the customer to protect themselves by having a lab report done on a stone if they require specifics. It doesn't make commercial sense for the vendor to have every stone in their inventory checked over - plenty of buyers just want a 'pretty ruby' and don't really care too much about the origin or even treatments.

I agree with most of this, except that if the buyer is getting a "pretty ruby" and it's very expensive, they should have a lab report done. I think price comes into the picture here, and any gem you're paying a substantial amount for (in your mind) that is commonly synthesized or treated, should have a lab report to accompany it. That's just one of the ways for the consumer to protect themselves. I don't expect every dealer to have every stone in their inventory checked by a lab, that is ludicrous, but if it is expensive, it probably should be, or at least at the potential owner's request.

 

[movie zombie]

Profit is key for many vendors.

while not true for hobbiests, this is true for all business people. w/o profit, there is no business. to expect gem cutters, dealers, etc. to operate by a different principle is unrealistic.

Annette/smithcompton: your post hit the nail for me.

MoZo

ps i see a lot of gems posted here at pricescope that people love......and i would walk away from w/o any thought. it all comes down to individual budget and individual education. just because i want a certain gem and it is priced higher than my budget does not make said gem unreasonably or overly priced. i can be a very savvy shopper but being a savvy shopper will not make up for my lack of budget. i can get the most bang for my buck....which is something we all want.

another thing i see here at pricescope is that we do have influece with vendors to the extent that some have even changed policies due to our traffic: return policy changes, will set stones only sourced by the person doing the actual setting, layaway policy changes....these immediately come to mind. i think we've also driven up the expectations of buyers....not a bad thing, imo. i also think we've driven up demand for particular stones and particular cuts. and i've noted that one color stone buyer has honestly stated that to reveal who the vendor was for some color diamonds purchased would be at their own detriment as increased purhases with that particular vendor would drive prices up with that vendor.

while we have some very experienced consumers on this forum, i think it is to our detriment to discount the experiences of those "in the business" that do participate here.

 

[PrecisionGem]

I don't think shopping channels have a big influence in the UK - even amongst my classmates very few watch it at all and they're all gemnuts.

I disagree. They sell to a huge market BUT for those who are not gemnuts! Why would you buy from a shopping channel where disclosure about treatments is almost impossible to attain!? For somebody who just wants a ruby (but doesn't care whether it's dyed, filled etc etc) but is pretty, red and already in a setting then it's a haven! For gemnuts who want a natural, unheated gemstone with a report from a reputable lab then there's no way that a shopping channel would cut the mustard!

I think LD is spot on. Maybe us 'guys' here are so in tune with gems that we don't notice it, but the average person doesn't care about treatment, source etc. They want a red stone. I was in K-Mart one day right after Christmas. Some poor guy was there returning a ring he bought as a gift for his wife. The stone was the wrong color. She wanted an emerald. So he spotted a green stone, asked the clerk if it was an emerald, she wasn't sure, but said it was green. He said good enough and bought it.

I'm kind of big into audio equipment, and have a taste for fine speakers. My wife could care less. I'd never listen to $100 pair of speakers, she would be just fine with them. It's the same thing here. TL could never have a heavily treated sapphire, but others would be very happy with a blue lab created stone. You don't find those people here however, just like if you went to some audio file forum, I doubt you would find many people seeking out advice on cheap speakers.

 

[brandy_z28]

From TL,

Very interesting Micahel. I didn't know you were a mind reader in that you know for a fact that a few people were upset about Richard's comments, but you know exactly how many people lurk here. If there were so many lurkers, as you say, then I would be more careful as a vendor to not upset others.

TL, some one being upset is pretty easy to pick up, especially when they say that they are upset, but yes I am a mind reader. Unfortunately I am a very bad at it and that's why I'm here. I like to see what people think and how trends go towards different stones, colors, styles, etc. The lurker thing is pretty obvious just looking at the numbers as mentioned above. Since many of them come here to see images and get info related to gems, the discussions regarding anyone being upset about business practices or personal affronts generally have little effect on those lurkers buying decisions, (otherwise I can think of several vendors who would be goners by now). What would influence their buying decisions would be some sort of unethical behavior being reported over and over again, and that just doesn't happen very often, at least not with established vendors.

Just my two cents worth and two cents is being generous.

I for one can attest to being influenced by others personal experiences with vendors as well as deciding who to go to and who to avoid by the way vendors have acted and responded on PS. Michael E, you're one of the ones I would go to without hesitation. We've only worked together once but I have a great respect for the way you handle yourself and find you quite amusing. It was due to PS that I came to you in the first place. While on the other hand I will avoid NSC like the plague, as well as a few others. PS has been a big influence for me.