Liability and ungraded stones

[PrecisionGem]

Gene, as much as I respect you, I have to disagree.
I buy stones all the time from dealers and people for very low prices. Most of them know what they have, but are just trying to unload invantory in this crap economy. And some just dont know what stones sell for. I of course test the stones and look for synthetics and treatments (and of course avoid stones with undetectable treatments). I have managed to start a business off of this practice, and its going well.
I think if you know where to look, and keep a peeled eye there are deals to be had. Traveling to thailand and africa arnt the only resources to find quality stones.

Typically people don't unload the top goods at very low prices. They are just hard to replace, and the economy always turns around.

 

[T L]

I agree with you Gene that the very top top top stones cannot be had for cheap prices, even on ebay. You're not going to find a high quality three carat Burmese sapphire going for no reserve auction starting at 99 cents. That just has the word "shady" written all over it. However, I have seen some amazing deals on some really beautiful gems. I just got an almost 3 carat yellowish orange spessartite for a very good price, IMHO. Is it the top of the line spessartite?? No, but I think for what I paid, it was an amazing deal. I didn't pay 99 cents for it, but I didn't pay what I see this material going for on other sites either. I think it also depends on the species, and I wonder if some of the more expensive material makes it's way into the average lot, and once it's cut, it's true beauty comes out. Some stones are very undervalued too, and that's another opportunity to find some great deals.

 

[PrecisionGem]

I'm sure it happens, but not often that a really nice piece of rough gets lost in a large parcel. I have yet to see it. These guys sort through the rough very very well.

Here's a shot of me trying to get a good deal on some yellow grossular garnet in Tanzania. Now you can't get much closer to the source than this. We were within a half mile of the mine site, and dealing with some local guys, and they couldn't be dupped on the price. He held firm on his price, and I passed on the stones.

 

[T L]

Thanks Gene,
As always, I do appreciate your perspective. I do learn a lot.

 

[Arkteia]

If I were buying my expensive stones after I came to PS, I might have bought it, but I would have negotiated a much better deal. There are prices and PRICES. Your buyer, Michael, could have negotiated a better deal if he looked at Blue Nile prices and asked if you would be willing to go lower. Now if my jeweler does not want to go down, I just turn and walk away. Like Gene went away from that mine.

 

[Michael_E]

Your buyer, Michael, could have negotiated a better deal if he looked at Blue Nile prices and asked if you would be willing to go lower.

At the time this occurred, Blue Nile didn't exist. I think that the real problem is that my customer really had no idea at all about what things cost and had assumed that the cost would be perhaps 1/3 or 1/4 of what I had mentioned as the low end. His expectation was completely unrealistic, which is the same thing that I see happening when people use pricing on E-Bay as a basis for their expectations. When people inquire about diamonds with me now I just send them here and say, "look around". I can't compete on those poor colorless things and don't even try.

Now if my jeweler does not want to go down, I just turn and walk away.

Regardless of the material that they're selling and their starting price? Sometimes the starting price is so good that if you wait, you lose. I've seen a large number of people bargain themselves right out of some really good deals just because they were always trying to press the price to it's absolute minimum and assuming that they were the only ones interested. Not that you do that crasru, but many people do and then seem to complain about pricing when they should have been concentrating less on price and more on the price/quality combination. The moral? If you want the piece and the price is reasonable, get it.

 

[T L]

The fact of the matter is that the less middlemen you have, the more you are probably going to save. It's just a fact of life, and again, that's why I shop around. I know a vendor that buys almost everything exclusively from ebay sources (actually, that's not unusual, I know many vendors that make connections that way). He recently bought a potentially valuable and fine quality stone for around $2K after winning an auction, and is trying to sell it for $8K. I've seen him make lots of profit, which is great, and I don't fault him for it, and good for him!! Many people think he has very fair and reasonable prices, but the fact of the matter is that he gets his gemstones for very little, and he does try to back up many of them with reputable lab reports. It's funny because he emails me his selections, and I actually know his sources, so I personally rather buy cheaper. A fine stone will be very expensive no matter what, but the less that stone changes hands, the more you can save. That's just a fact of life in the retail world.

 

[Arkteia]

Your buyer, Michael, could have negotiated a better deal if he looked at Blue Nile prices and asked if you would be willing to go lower.

At the time this occurred, Blue Nile didn't exist. I think that the real problem is that my customer really had no idea at all about what things cost and had assumed that the cost would be perhaps 1/3 or 1/4 of what I had mentioned as the low end. His expectation was completely unrealistic, which is the same thing that I see happening when people use pricing on E-Bay as a basis for their expectations. When people inquire about diamonds with me now I just send them here and say, "look around". I can't compete on those poor colorless things and don't even try.

Now if my jeweler does not want to go down, I just turn and walk away.

Regardless of the material that they're selling and their starting price? Sometimes the starting price is so good that if you wait, you lose. I've seen a large number of people bargain themselves right out of some really good deals just because they were always trying to press the price to it's absolute minimum and assuming that they were the only ones interested. Not that you do that crasru, but many people do and then seem to complain about pricing when they should have been concentrating less on price and more on the price/quality combination. The moral? If you want the piece and the price is reasonable, get it.

Yes, and in my pre-PS, pre-collection days I bought a diamond for 11 K that I would have probably bought for 6 K from you. Worst part, I hate such buys so a nice diamond ring is sitting in my safe and I don't know what to do with it. There is nothing to do with it but keep it in the safe. It looks nice, though.

 

[Sagebrush]

Not sure where the "gems have no pedigree" quote comes from but I agree that they should not. As I am sure most know, that is only true of pearls. The original quote comes from Stevenson & Kunz "The Book of the Pearl"

Michael raised the issue of the Wittelsbach, Graff will without doubt parlay the exhibition with the Hope into a big increase in price for his stone. My guess, it will easily triple the value. Why, simply because it was on display with the world's most famous diamond. Now, that's some hefty provenance!

This forum is not about buying cheap? Really, over the past decade, the internet and Pricescope is the most important forum on the internet, has virtually collapsed the diamond market!!! Current margins are perhaps 25% of diamond margins BP (before pricescope). On the color scene, we are seeing a similar effect and the PC Colored Stone forum plays an even greater role as there is no universal color grading system and no big players like Blue Nile. Before Pricescope, there was multi-step distribution system and the consumer was at the end of the chain. PC acts as a clearing house by giving advice on prices and quality. Today with PC we see source dealers selling directly to consumers and eliminating several middle men. There is a difference between being cheap and buying cheap and I am sorry but everyone wants a deal!

Ebay, Fleabay, the site is pure and simple a huge Flea Market?

Best,

 

[LD]

Surely the drop in diamond and coloured gemstone prices/sales has far more to do with the rise of internet sales, added competition in the market and more latterly, the recession than the perceived power of Pricescope?

 

[chrono]

Surely the drop in diamond and coloured gemstone prices/sales has far more to do with the rise of internet sales, added competition in the market and more latterly, the recession than the perceived power of Pricescope?

I was wondering this myself; as the internet opened up the selection of vendors for a variety of goods, just about every B&M stores have seen a dip in total sales. Those that adapt continue to survive and even thrive while does that don’t, suffer huge losses. I’m pretty sure that the recession has also affected the buying power of most consumers and luxury items (which diamonds and gemstones fall under) will be the first to be affected.

 

[Sagebrush]

Chrono,

What you say is true but don't undersell yourself or underestimate your influence. For every registered user there is one lurker and what percentage of the registered users participate? Check the stats, the number is minuscule and isn't that because most of the so-called registered users come, ask a question then log off and hardly ever return? Pricescope is extremely influential and in one case at least has served to help make a market.

Consider Mahenge spinel. I believe that Pricescope is one of the major influences that is responsible for the huge rise in the spinel market in general and Mahenge in particular. The Mozambique cuprian market was made by dealers, they put their heads together, established a price structure and held to it. First time that ever happened in color. Pricescope users trumpeted the quality of Mahenge and the market listened. Mahenge is more expensive than Burma, how do you explain it? Pricescope has helped colapse the market and has also helped make the market for some particular gems as well.

Best,

 

[VapidLapid]

Markets rise and fall. Tastes change, even values change. Pricescope is just the scope of the internet applied to word of mouth. Pricescope couldnt make Mahenge happen if Mahenge didnt have the goods. And those goods would have made themselves a market had they come along before PS too. PS is a useful tool, like having an uncle in the gemstone business!

 

[LD]

Chrono,

What you say is true but don't undersell yourself or underestimate your influence. For every registered user there is one lurker and what percentage of the registered users participate? Check the stats, the number is minuscule and isn't that because most of the so-called registered users come, ask a question then log off and hardly ever return? Pricescope is extremely influential and in one case at least has served to help make a market.

Consider Mahenge spinel. I believe that Pricescope is one of the major influences that is responsible for the huge rise in the spinel market in general and Mahenge in particular. The Mozambique cuprian market was made by dealers, they put their heads together, established a price structure and held to it. First time that ever happened in color. Pricescope users trumpeted the quality of Mahenge and the market listened. Mahenge is more expensive than Burma, how do you explain it? Pricescope has helped colapse the market and has also helped make the market for some particular gems as well.

Best,

I don't agree. PS is a predominately US orientated forum. Therefore I cannot understand how it can influence worldwide markets. I was buying far more years ago (before discovering PS) than I do now.

Using your example - take Mahenge Spinel. It's currently being sold on 2 TV jewellery shopping channels in the UK. They have nothing to do with PS. The rise in this market is because of the amount available.

 

[Sagebrush]

Vapidlapid,

I think you are missing my point. All that you say is correct but somewhere, somehow, the market has to learn about a product. This is one of the primary places they learn. Demand comes ultimately from the end user. It took 2,000 years to make Burma a brand, how long did it take Mahenge? Do you see big ads in the NYT or on Fox News? If not here, where?

Spinel has been around, in quantity of 5,000 years, suddenly it becomes popular, prices rise, why?

Best,

P.S. The U. S. is the biggest colored gem market.

 

[LD]

Vapidlapid,

I think you are missing my point. All that you say is correct but somewhere, somehow, the market has to learn about a product. This is one of the primary places they learn. Demand comes ultimately from the end user. It took 2,000 years to make Burma a brand, how long did it take Mahenge? Do you see big ads in the NYT or on Fox News? If not here, where?

Best,

P.S. The U. S. is the biggest colored gem market.

No. Just on TV shopping channels that sell coloured gemstones/jewellery.

 

[Sagebrush]

LovingDiamonds, You make a career of disagreeing with anything I say and yes, of course, Gemstone TV is a factor, would be foolish to deny it, but do you believe PC is NOT a factor?

 

[LD]

LovingDiamonds, You make a career of disagreeing with anything I say and yes, of course, Gemstone TV is a factor, would be foolish to deny it, but do you believe PC is NOT a factor?

There is no need to be offensive. I don't agree with you because I don't agree with you! It's as simple as that! I don't care who you are. The fact that you've blatently offended a huge population on this forum (whom you believe to be so influential) and then come back on without even an apology speaks volumes to me!

I don't agree with the statement that you made and I will state my reasons rather than ignoring you (which you do to the majority of my posts).

There are a myriad of internet forums that discuss jewellery/gemstones. No one forum is powerful enough to influence a worldwide market. Many people who buy gemstones and jewellery do so without much knowledge. There is a far smaller section that want to know more, understand gemstones, treatments etc. PS (and other forums) are more populated by this smaller percentage therefore influence is limited. What you DO see on these forum are trends that reflect the marketplace. Sometimes you'll find this ahead of the market, sometimes not.

 

[VapidLapid]

Richard, I do not disagree with you. I think it took Burma 5000 years because there was no mass media nor even a sizeable wealthy society to make a market in until the last few hundred years. Yes the internet has changed the game completely. That is true in all businesses. Pricescope can have some influence, good and bad, as can any local big-mouthed gossip. I just hate to see you give it more credit than it deserves, or swell the heads of any of us here with stories of our inflated power. Senator, I will never turn to the dark side! I know of one gemstone dealer here in NYC who swears that PS is just a cackle of old hags high on their self importance and of no consequence in the gemstone world. I guess he doesn't look at the pictures! But really the truth lies somewhere in between. PS is an informative resource. Like any such resource it can have some influence. I learned about Mahenge on PS.

 

[Sagebrush]

Vapidlapid,

Right you are. Those dealers, and there are many, who consider Pricescope a nuisance are simply on the wrong side of history. I am not trying to build anyone's ego, I am simply stating a fact. Pricescope is influential and it is a real factor in the world market. Gems TV is, perhaps, more important.

Just after Bill Hyams and his company took over AGL, I interviewed him. He claimed that it was lack of knowledge coupled with a lack of surety that were the main reasons why gemstones where not a big market like other luxury goods. His solution, cheap certificates! He has since backed out of the industry but his point was well taken. A person spending 50k on a tiny colored bauble wants some surety that he or she is buying something of value and not getting taken.

Gems have no nutritional value, they won't keep you warm in winter, they have only their beauty and what are a majority of the threads here about? What do you think of this sapphire, how much should I pay for a ruby? and on and on.

Best,

 

[LD]

Richard, I do not disagree with you. I think it took Burma 5000 years because there was no mass media nor even a sizeable wealthy society to make a market in until the last few hundred years. Yes the internet has changed the game completely. That is true in all businesses. Pricescope can have some influence, good and bad, as can any local big-mouthed gossip. I just hate to see you give it more credit than it deserves, or swell the heads of any of us here with stories of our inflated power. Senator, I will never turn to the dark side! I know of one gemstone dealer here in NYC who swears that PS is just a cackle of old hags high on their self importance and of no consequence in the gemstone world. I guess he doesn't look at the pictures! But really the truth lies somewhere in between. PS is an informative resource. Like any such resource it can have some influence. I learned about Mahenge on PS.

Not quite on the same lines but ........... when the TV jewellery industry hit the UK, their sales negatively affected many High Street jewellers who just couldn't compete with the low prices, variety of gemstones etc. What happened was a lobbying by a large number of independent jewellers to press appraisers to value goods much lower than their actual worth in an attempt to stop those companies trading! Of course, it didn't work but it goes to show the power of TV! Were their goods of a quality you see on PS and from specific vendors recommended on here? Very very occasionally (more so years ago than now) but the majority were/are nowhere near but they were selling in bulk to a large audience who knew very little about gemstones or treatments and who cared more about having an affordable sapphire than worrying about BE, filling, dying etc. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating buying from a TV jewellery channel but I honestly believe the power of TV, radio and newspapers/magazines hits the masses as opposed to a knowledgeable minority.

Signed by a cackled old hag!

 

[VapidLapid]

Oh LD, you are no more a cackler than me!

It would be foolish to deny (and believe that denial) that the spheres of influence have changed, are changing and likely will continue to change. They change more rapidly nowadays, and there are far more people in the world and hence a larger market. With markets this large and fast the ripples can be noteworthy. They do tend to stabilize though. I dont think a stone's value is based on beauty, else simulants and treateds would be of equal, or better value than the originals. Quality, desirability, rarity, status, access and the variables of taste are natural values with advertising/PR/hype unnatural or false values. Equals of beauty are in no way bound to be equals of value.

Oh dear, I think I just cackled a little bit.

 

[minousbijoux]

CacklingOldHag - now why didn't I think of that as my user name?

 

[PrecisionGem]

When I first started cutting, all my sales were to B&M jewelry stores, and the occasional person I knew. Once I got a website going, I sold a few stones off the site to jewelers. Then I was found by someone on Pricescope. With the recession, jewelers seem to have stopped buying for the most part, and maybe 75% of my sales are now Pricescoper's.

As far trends go, I certainly see trends. There are a few here who seem to set them. ONce one of the main posters buys a stone, I get a few emails from others looking for a similar stone. Square stones with step facets, windmill patterns and cut corners (I'm not allowed to use the copy right name that starts with an A and ends in an R) are very popular only on Pricescope. I have never sold a stone with this cut to anyone not on Pricescope.

I'm sure the vast majority of stones sold in the US are from mall jewelry stores, Walmart, Sam's Club etc. that are lower end inky blue sapphires, lab created ruby and emerald and really pale Aquamarine. To these stones, Pricescope has no influence, but to the more unique stones, the Malaya garnets, Umbalites, Spinel, Zircon, etc. I think Pricescope has a big influence.

 

[minousbijoux]

Gene, I couldn't agree more. I have always loved colored gemstones, but for years I was unaware of the wide array of species and colors. Once you find out that you love spessartite, say (and I think I've bought them from you) or the neon that comes from cuprians, you can't go back to the BM, limited variety of the big four high end stones - I include diamonds in this - and the widely available lower priced colored stones like amethyst, peridot and the one that is golden colored and begins with c whose name I can't remember right now because as well as cackling I'm forgetful. And once you realize that there is a place (PS) where you can discuss them, and along with that it helps open up the world of where you can actually get these pretties, there is no going back.

 

[empress]

JCK reported the first week of September that Harry Winston's sales were up 62% in the second quarter. Rough diamond sales up 89% and retail sales up 7%.

Somewhere I else I read that increases in luxury sales were due to Far Eastern buying - even in US stores. This market is expected to strengthen as that part of the world gets richer. It will start to lead the gemstone market - if it doesn't already. The US influence on markets will decrease as our dollar and production shrink in relation to the rest of the world.

Gems are indeed, a global market. You all buy globally (even on EBay) and dealers sell globally. Why would you think that PS is influential only in the US? A number of the posters are from other countries. In some countries, they developed internet systems before telephone systems.

Media is what increased consumption in the US starting in the 1950's - and with media reaching all corners of the world in a multitude of formats, consumption will continue to increase.

The retail and liability rules for B&M stores depend on the laws where the store is located. The internet - I don't think we've even begun to figure that out yet.

 

[Arkteia]

Books are also a good vehicle, Mr. Wise. . ...Since many people prefer reading to watching shopping networks. We also shop at Amazon.com. To each his own.

Ultimately, Google is the best vehicle. But it is inevitable.

I think rubies became popular in Europe around Marco Polo's time. I may be wrong here. Definitely not 2000 years ago.

And sorry for not mentioning the author of the quote.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I agree with Richard Wise that pricescope is an important market maker. I watch the business channel ,CNBC, daily, and pricescope has come up on several shows when discussing diamonds and colored stones. It has been recommended on the show "fast money" also in connection with diamonds. Not just once.

Markets are made by demand. People have to know about the stone in order to desire it,. I have mentioned that TL is making the market in Chrystoberyl all by herself. You can see the prices going up on the favored internet sites. The Spinel, tsavorite garnet are just two of those that have gained in popularity. That is not from the TV channels here.

I have never purchased anything from Gene, but he is my favorite vendor. He speaks so honestly, and acknowledges that small cottage industry vendors do most of their business from pricescope. I understand Gene only spoke for himself, but I believe others fall into that categorty as well. What if I told you ladies these vendors prices have also gone up due to your demand.. I know one vendor who was having a difficult time until he found PS.

I am not offended by Richard Wise's comments, because it is hard to listen to our chatter if you are negatively affected. I think the high end items discussed on here are usually for those wanting engagement rings, or for very special occasions. I think Richards stones should be looked at.( and of course discussed). Kenny is right in saying this is a different world now, and vendors have to learn how to compete differently. I also think this pricescope membership is different than it was 5 yrs ago when I joined. WE find much more danger in treatments than we did then.

Thanks,

Annette

 

[Sagebrush]

All,

Those of us who actually function in the market understand the effect that Pricescope has. Buzz on Pricescope creates demand for certain varieties of gemstones. Buzz is the biggest thing in internet marketing accross the spectrum of products. We live in the information age. People want to understand before they buy. Positive buzz sells books too!

 

[kenny]

I wonder what negative buzz on PS does to sales of gems and books.