Liability and ungraded stones

[kenny]

Certain locations of origin, like Kashmir, can dramatically increase the value of a gem.

In another thread someone bought a ruby and the seller stated, in writing, it was from Burma.
If the buyer later (past the refund period) sends the ruby to a reputable lab, like AGL, and it is determined to not be from Burma but rather a location that makes it less valuable is the seller liable?

I would think if the buyer chose to buy a stone with no report from an independent gem lab they'd have no recourse.
Sure the vendor should not have claimed Burma without the authority of a report.
This is why independent grading labs exist.
The seller may have trusted their source about the Burma origin.

This question also applies to everything else too, gem type, weight, treatment, color etc.
Seems to me if you buy something with no lab report you don't have a leg to stand on, legally.

What I think does not matter.
What is customary (buyer and vendor expectations) and what are the laws about this?

 

[VapidLapid]

Im not a lawyer so I can;t speak to the question of what laws or jurisdictions but I want to add to the question the recent phenomenon of naming certain (ambiguous) colors after localities that add a premium to a stone's value. I know it bothers me tremendously when "kashmir" is used as a modifier for "blue" . In that I have the impression that hue is not on of the defining qualities of the stones of Kashmir. I can see that someone, or some many even, might not understand that semantic sleight of hand and end up with a montana they think is from Kashmire. Then too I feel the same deception in the "cobalt blue" vs. Cobalt Blue of spinels. SO Im wondering if one sells a "Burmese" Ruby, but the buyer hears Burmese Ruby....

A fundamental truth that is often told here: educate yourself before you buy, then trust but verify.

 

[Nashville]

I don't know the law regarding this (good question) but I believe with all the shady business practices rampant in the gem trade, a seller's word means almost nothing. Yes, there are wonderful, reputable sellers, but it's up to the buyer to protect their investment and get the certification to prove that they have gotten what they paid for.

If I bought an "untreated/unheated Burmese sapphire" without reputable lab work and then found out it was a dyed or heated piece of junk or from Tanzania, that would be my fault. No one forced me to buy the stone. If I was sold a "Kashmir sapphire" and the seller tampered with the cert, THEN I'd bet you could take legal action. It's unfortunately very difficult to prove that a seller misrepresented an item intentionally.

I learned this the hard way not too long ago. I will not buy from any vendors now without certification from a reputable lab.

 

[minousbijoux]

I will not buy from any vendors now without certification from a reputable lab.

I couldn't agree more - I'm afraid to have some of the stones I bought early on tested for fear that they are the finest quality burmese and kashmir quartz

On the other hand, a while ago I purchased a beautiful, heated flawless pad from a reputable dealer. He sent it out to AGL to have it certed and it came back as unheated. He was as surprised as I was, realized he had sold it too cheap, but of course honored the deal. I think he felt that he had not done proper due diligence on the stone, and I'm sure makes more of an effort now to cert his stones prior to sale.

 

[chrono]

If past the return period, the buyer does not have much recourse. It is up to the buyer to always verify that what they have is indeed what was advertised. Of course a reputable seller should attempt to make amends that is agreeable to both parties in such cases. In terms of the law though, I am afraid I am unfamiliar with what is permissible and what isn’t.

 

[Michael_E]

Certain locations of origin, like Kashmir, can dramatically increase the value of a gem.

This is only the case if those higher valued stones have the traits which are expected from those origins, (or if the buyer has a low IQ). An ugly stone from Kashmir is still an ugly stone and could only have an increased value to those who are buying based on origin, in which case they are setting themselves up to be fleeced. As for rubies, a fine ruby from anywhere is always going to be worth a lot of money and a fine ruby from Africa is better than a moderate ruby from Burma. I just can't get a handle on this whole idea of origin increasing value. It seems like a person is buying the story and not the stone. Why would anyone be more concerned about where a stone comes from than what it looks like? Just seems odd to me.

 

[LD]

Certain locations of origin, like Kashmir, can dramatically increase the value of a gem.

This is only the case if those higher valued stones have the traits which are expected from those origins, (or if the buyer has a low IQ). An ugly stone from Kashmir is still an ugly stone and could only have an increased value to those who are buying based on origin, in which case they are setting themselves up to be fleeced. As for rubies, a fine ruby from anywhere is always going to be worth a lot of money and a fine ruby from Africa is better than a moderate ruby from Burma. I just can't get a handle on this whole idea of origin increasing value. It seems like a person is buying the story and not the stone. Why would anyone be more concerned about where a stone comes from than what it looks like? Just seems odd to me.

I agree with your post Michael. My only hesitation however is that some gems (of the finest quality) will command a premium based on location. For example, if you take a fabulous Indian or Brazilian Alexandrite and then exactly the same quality/size/cut Alexandrite from Russia, the Russian stone will (or most probably will) attract a higher price. Not always I appreciate. Paraiba Tourmalines are in the same vein. You could argue that one from Paraiba and the original strike is going to be more valuable than exactly the same gem from Mozambique.

For me, I'd chose colour, cut, quality etc over location any day because I'm not hung up on location and a beautiful gem is a beautiful gem!

As for legal recourse? There's a step that could avoid that anyway - the first rule of buying gemstones should be caveat emptor. The buyer should take responsibility to get a gemstone authenticated within the returns period timeframe and NEVER take the word of the seller as "gospel". I don't mean to imply that all sellers are dishonest as that's simply NOT the case. However, anybody can be duped and if the gem is a substantial buy then it only makes sense to get it checked by experts!

 

[Sagebrush]

Kenny, et al,

There should be no time limit on honesty. That said, we have all been fooled. The technology of treatment is always, by definition, ahead of the methodology for uncovering that treatment and no one in the world is paid a salary to keep ahead.

In the old days, a "Kashmir" sapphire was a stone that was of exceptional quality and had the traits expected of the best from the locale. There is no question, if you lined up all the sapphire in the world, the first in line would be a geographic Kashmir. The color of #1-2 Kashmir is the finest color, period. Recently I sold a 4 carat Madagascar that was qualitatively better than any Kashmir I have seen in the past decade, it was about #2 color. One venerable dealer I know with an inventory worth perhaps 50 million told me the finest Kashmir he had ever seen came from Sri Lanka. Had it a "Kashmir" geographic certificate I could have sold it for about the same price per carat as the price of the entire stone. Let's face it we all fall for branding.

Should all stones have certificates? Maybe, you are the buyer, so its up to you. A certified amethyst worth 50 bucks? Expensive stones, yes absolutely if they are normally subjected to treatment. I just sold a matched pair of gem quality 3.1mm round unheated Tanzanian rubies, the certificate would have almost doubled the price.

IMO, if you don't know the item you should make it your business to deal with someone who does. Will that someone cheat you? Well, You go to the doctor, he tells you that you need a triple bypass. Is he lying? Could be he just wants to make some money, cutting you open. You can get a second opinion and a third but short of signing up for medical school, sooner or later you have to accept someone's word. Success and failure in life is based to some degree on the decisions you make about the people we choose to do business with.

This forum is largely driven by people trying to buy cheap. Some people here believe it is possible to get over on a seller and some have but more have fallen victim to their own hubris. They find a stone advertised by Joe Blow on Fleabay at a ridiculous price, then complain that all gem dealers are crooks when the steal becomes a fraud, when they become the victim instead of the victimizer. Deal with reputable people and you sleep better at night.

 

[LD]

Kenny, et al,

There should be no time limit on honesty. That said, we have all been fooled. The technology of treatment is always, by definition, ahead of the methodology for uncovering that treatment and no one in the world is paid a salary to keep ahead.

In the old days, a "Kashmir" sapphire was a stone that was of exceptional quality and had the traits expected of the best from the locale. There is no question, if you lined up all the sapphire in the world, the first in line would be a geographic Kashmir. The color of #1-2 Kashmir is the finest color, period. Recently I sold a 4 carat Madagascar that was qualitatively better than any Kashmir I have seen in the past decade, it was about #2 color. One venerable dealer I know with an inventory worth perhaps 50 million told me the finest Kashmir he had ever seen came from Sri Lanka. Had it a "Kashmir" geographic certificate I could have sold it for about the same price per carat as the price of the entire stone. Let's face it we all fall for branding.

Should all stones have certificates? Maybe, you are the buyer, so its up to you. A certified amethyst worth 50 bucks? Expensive stones, yes absolutely if they are normally subjected to treatment. I just sold a matched pair of gem quality 3.1mm round unheated Tanzanian rubies, the certificate would have almost doubled the price.

IMO, if you don't know the item you should make it your business to deal with someone who does. Will that someone cheat you? Well, You go to the doctor, he tells you that you need a triple bypass. Is he lying? Could be he just wants to make some money, cutting you open. You can get a second opinion and a third but short of signing up for medical school, sooner or later you have to accept someone's word. Success and failure in life is based to some degree on the decisions you make about the people we choose to do business with.

This forum is largely driven by people trying to buy cheap. Some people here believe it is possible to get over on a seller and some have but more have fallen victim to their own hubris. They find a stone advertised by Joe Blow on Fleabay at a ridiculous price, then complain that all gem dealers are crooks when the steal becomes a fraud, when they become the victim instead of the victimizer. Deal with reputable people and you sleep better at night.

How insulting. You are making a sweeping generalisation and have absolutely NO idea who buys what. I for one, very rarely post my purchases on here and I've paid many thousands for a gem as well as bought cheaply.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi All,

My limited understanding says that if the receipt states what the item is, you will have recourse in the courts. Isn't this how GIA and a jewelry company got sued after the fact. Remember the Middle Eastern buyer who found out later he was defrauded, and won in court and someone who is on forums we all frequent testified on his behalf. So I think there is still recouse except if there is a statute of limitations on the transaction.

Please understand I am in no way picking a fight here so lets not jump on what I am about to say.

When I first came to PS in 2005 I thought everyone must be rich. The diamond board was so busy, buying, longing and evaluating.
And then the women had to upgrade. Well, I liked the colored stone section and began to learn. I had purchased many stones before finding PS and came to find a number of my purchases weren't as good as I thought. I found some women who had the most beautiful jewelry and when I read other threads I found they probably were in fact rich. But, Mr Wise, they are far and few between. There are some who are wealthy, but most are not, and so they are not looking for top grade and color stones. They are typical women shoppers who do want a bargain. We do it all over, not just in the gem industry. We hunt those bargains down, even if we have to go thailand.
It's enjoyable for women to do it. But it is tricky. No question about that.

I have read women who on another part of the forum tell us their husbands may be out of work, he doesn't make enough, but they come right over here to start new projects. They are not your customer. They just want a pretty. They aren't just being cheap, they can't afford it.

I decided that this forum is aspirational for a good number of people.. For those that can afford it, they supply the pictures. The rest of us look at pictures. I think people do learn and when they have a few bucks, they will know what to get.

I'm not cheap, but light up if I think I got a bargain.

Thanks,
Annette

 

[chrono]

There is a market for a variety of gemstone qualities and a variety of budgets. Not everyone is fortunate enough to be able to afford high end goods or pricier goods, so many will shop around until the right stone falls into their requirements.

 

[Nashville]

There is a market for a variety of gemstone qualities and a variety of budgets. Not everyone is fortunate enough to be able to afford high end goods or pricier goods, so many will shop around until the right stone falls into their requirements.

This. I'm by no means cheap, and I'm pretty ebay savvy (and still maintain that there are great deals to be found if you're willing to hunt), but I know what I want and I know my budget.

OK, so maybe I can't afford that 6 carat silky padparadscha I lust after. But with research, time, patience and acceptance of my budget, I can afford a small stone with an excellent color that will look lovely in an understated setting. That's why I love PS. Not because I'm cheap or trying to get a top shelf gem for 20 bucks, but because I've seen all the options when on the trail of a must have gem. I enjoy that hunt so much more than picking out a sub par stone from some home shopping network and calling it a day.

Ugh... you're either cheap, or a wannabe high roller... can't win!

 

[davi_el_mejor]

...
This forum is largely driven by people trying to buy cheap. Some people here believe it is possible to get over on a seller and some have but more have fallen victim to their own hubris. They find a stone advertised by Joe Blow on Fleabay at a ridiculous price, then complain that all gem dealers are crooks when the steal becomes a fraud, when they become the victim instead of the victimizer. Deal with reputable people and you sleep better at night.

wow

 

[T L]

I resent when people call ebay "fleabay" because there are many reputable sellers that sell on ebay. It's rather sad when there are many bad sellers that taint the reputation of ebay, but that's not to say that ALL of ebay is a haven for junk. Leibish even sells on ebay. I mean "come on!!??"

I will say that the colored stones forum (I can't speak to other parts of PS) is largely driven by some very intelligent people who like to get a good buy for their money, and not be overcharged for something that isn't worth it, whether the stone is expensive or not. Those people go out of their way to help others achieve the same goal.

 

[Arcadian]

*blinks*

Thats really a stankydank blanket statement, Richard.

That would mean in your opinion, the custom cutters that sell on ebay, they suck too? That ish is laughable, Ok, spare me boo.

I do not purposely post up my income on any board, because its nobody's damn business. Thats something reserved for a very select few.

Got a lesson for you; some of the world's billionaires get that way by buying smart. Being that this is a consumer board, the reason why most of us are even here is so that we can buy with the knowledge that we're not buying with just a purely emotional attachment and that we use whatever funds we have at our disposal that we do it well. That means for some of us that if its on ebay, so be it.

Richard, all Imma say is stop drinking the koolaid, boo.

-A

 

[sphenequeen]

Richard,

I have a feeling that this forum has been very good for your business AND for your book sales. All I want to say to you is: don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

 

[Upgradable]

Richard,

I have a feeling that this forum has been very good for your business AND for your book sales. All I want to say to you is: don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Richard, I respect you and your body of knowledge very much. I would respect you more if you came back and pulled your foot out of your mouth.

 

[kenny]

This forum is largely driven by people trying to buy cheap.
Some people here believe it is possible to get over on a seller and some have but more have fallen victim to their own hubris.

Wow!
Just wow!
Way to drive away potential customers and bite the hand that feeds you.

 

[brandy_z28]

This forum is largely driven by people trying to buy cheap.
Some people here believe it is possible to get over on a seller and some have but more have fallen victim to their own hubris.

Wow!
Just wow!

Can we photoshop a bullet hole into that foot?

To come into a public CONSUMER forum and speak with that much contempt is mind boggling.

 

[platinumrock]

Kenny, et al,

There should be no time limit on honesty. That said, we have all been fooled. The technology of treatment is always, by definition, ahead of the methodology for uncovering that treatment and no one in the world is paid a salary to keep ahead.

In the old days, a "Kashmir" sapphire was a stone that was of exceptional quality and had the traits expected of the best from the locale. There is no question, if you lined up all the sapphire in the world, the first in line would be a geographic Kashmir. The color of #1-2 Kashmir is the finest color, period. Recently I sold a 4 carat Madagascar that was qualitatively better than any Kashmir I have seen in the past decade, it was about #2 color. One venerable dealer I know with an inventory worth perhaps 50 million told me the finest Kashmir he had ever seen came from Sri Lanka. Had it a "Kashmir" geographic certificate I could have sold it for about the same price per carat as the price of the entire stone. Let's face it we all fall for branding.

Should all stones have certificates? Maybe, you are the buyer, so its up to you. A certified amethyst worth 50 bucks? Expensive stones, yes absolutely if they are normally subjected to treatment. I just sold a matched pair of gem quality 3.1mm round unheated Tanzanian rubies, the certificate would have almost doubled the price.

IMO, if you don't know the item you should make it your business to deal with someone who does. Will that someone cheat you? Well, You go to the doctor, he tells you that you need a triple bypass. Is he lying? Could be he just wants to make some money, cutting you open. You can get a second opinion and a third but short of signing up for medical school, sooner or later you have to accept someone's word. Success and failure in life is based to some degree on the decisions you make about the people we choose to do business with.

This forum is largely driven by people trying to buy cheap. Some people here believe it is possible to get over on a seller and some have but more have fallen victim to their own hubris. They find a stone advertised by Joe Blow on Fleabay at a ridiculous price, then complain that all gem dealers are crooks when the steal becomes a fraud, when they become the victim instead of the victimizer. Deal with reputable people and you sleep better at night.

With all due respect, this says a lot more about your mentality than these "people" that you speak of. A product's true value is determined by its purchase price, not its estimated value. That $50,000 2 ct. Tiffany engagement ring purchased from the Tiffany and Co. store with GIA/AGS papers ends up being listed on Ebay. Couples break up, the economy is bad, job loss, health emergency, etc. If I'm able to snag that very same ring for $5000, does that mean that ring is "cheap" now? Of course not. The only thing that changed was its value. I don't care if someone appraises it for $80,000. If all you get for it is $5,000 cash, then that's what someone is willing to pay for it.

I do notice two types of buyers: those that like to brag that they paid $50K for a Tiffany ring and those that like to brag about snagging that $50K Tiffany ring for $5K.

I happen to be the latter. Call me a dumpster diver, but I love me some Fleabay deals.

 

[colorluvr]

I resent when people call ebay "fleabay" because there are many reputable sellers that sell on ebay. It's rather sad when there are many bad sellers that taint the reputation of ebay, but that's not to say that ALL of ebay is a haven for junk. Leibish even sells on ebay. I mean "come on!!??"

I will say that the colored stones forum (I can't speak to other parts of PS) is largely driven by some very intelligent people who like to get a good buy for their money, and not be overcharged for something that isn't worth it, whether the stone is expensive or not. Those people go out of their way to help others achieve the same goal.

Well said.

 

[kenny]

I think sellers of many high end specialty products miss the good old days when they were the only source of information their clients had.

The Internet has changed everything, and they are resentful, bitter and grumpy.

 

[minousbijoux]

This thread, until the offensive comments, was really interesting - clearly lots of opinions about liability. I would suggest that the expert individual here who feels a constant need to separate himself from others:

1) likes to goad and takes pleasure in the reaction; or
2) has time on his hands (it does make one wonder about his business); or
3) is incapable of seeing his own utter lack of tact and diplomacy; or
4) needs to make himself feel better at the expense of others.

I love this forum because you all (you know who you are) are so articulate, knowledgeable, and dedicated to the love of gems. I wish I found you a long time ago.

 

[digitaldevo]

First, let me clarify one thing, I do tend to call Ebay Fleabay, but not so much because of the Sellers so much as the Company Ebay, more or less allowing the scammers to run rampant and free, and if they happen to be big PowerSellers, Fleabay actually will do everything in their power, as will PayPal, to protect said seller(s)!! I've been there on the receiving end and know first hand how it works. But, also, to be truthful, for every one good honest seller on Ebay there are about 1000 scammers waiting to steal your $$$, sadly. Kind of like trying to buy gemstones on the streets in Thailand/Bangkok, lol, last I heard even the Government as placing signs on every corner and spaced ever so many feet warning folks that for every 1 valid gem seller who approaches you, there will be a 100 others who are scammers, or something to that extent, lol. So, sorry who ever I may offend by calling Ebay Fleabay, but just keep in mind it is NOT because of the sellers but the management!

Now, as for legal issues. I am not an attorney, nor legal aide, nor did I even stay in a Holiday Inn last night, but I did used to be law enforcement in my State for many years. I also owned a few retail store fronts about 20yrs or so ago and dealt with things on a regular basis being in the electronics business side of retail stores, lol. So I do know a little about the legal side both criminally and civilly when it comes to purchases.

When a product is sold, you the buyer and the seller do enter in to a binding agreement, aka. legal contract in most all states in the USA!! This means that you are bound to abide by this contract as is the seller. What this means is if the seller sells you an Untreated Burma Ruby and you later come to find out the ruby is actually heated and from the Umba Valley instead, then you do have recourse. As for the treatment, you have recourse civilly on this matter in small claims court IF the Seller will NOT refund your purchase price of the gemstone. You are entitled to nothing more aside from possible court fees if the Judge so awards them unless you can prove damages. BUT, even if you can prove damages, if the Seller can prove what is known as due diligence in the testing and identification of the gemstone... meaning properly testing it on gemological equipment and can prove either enough hands on experience(quite a bit.. like many many years of it would be needed and in a commercial/apprentice type atmosphere not just in their home collecting..lol) or proper training(as in a gemological degree or certificates received for individual courses on ID and/or the equipment used) the seller may not even be liable for the refund of the purchase price at all UNLESS you are within the return period given at the time of purchase. These things don't even need to be in writing in many states as simply a verbal statement made during the sale can be a legal binding part of the contract if one has a way to prove it was stated, via a witness for example. Now, if the person can NOT prove due diligence in testing the stone and having the education/experience in the use of the equipment and gemstones then you could easily win your civil suit as long as you have all your paperwork and/or witnesses and proof needed and in order and present your case in a convincing manner, because it is your job/duty/responsibility to prove their guilt, not for them to prove their innocence, unlike criminal court, it doesn't have to be without a reasonable doubt, just overall convincing.

Now, selling a synthetic as a natural is pretty much the same deal. But if you can prove the Seller is KNOWN for doing these kinds of tactics via witnesses and other proof, then in some States there are even criminal charges you could have filed, like Theft By Deception in my State for example.

Always file an FTC complaint if the seller won't do anything. But be forewarned they seldom act on ANYTHING. What they will do is record the complaint and send you a rather large envelope full of pamphlets and fliers explaining how to become a better educated buyer and stuff on how to avoid scams. They basically tell you not to bother shopping at places like online auction websites and things known for having lots of scammers. They put the burden on the buyer/consumer now, sadly. I just recently tested this myself actually. :/

It all boils down to if you can prove your case and the seller can not prove due diligence. Then you can win. But damages are very difficult to win in most States anyways, aside from the cost of the product and/or cost of court filing fees. So, in many cases the cost of the fees will out weight the cost of the product(unless expensive of course) and your even your possible winnings, since they can be zero. So this route should only be taken if you can afford to possibly lose even more $$$$. But if you file the case within the return policy or literally directly after it has expired in some states or in some they will even allow you to file instantly IF you can prove that you have doubt the seller will live up to their end of the contract because some States allow for either party to act preemptively(forget exact terms for it, sorry) if they can prove they felt the other party was going to renege on their end of the contract, i.e. not accepting a return within the listed time period for a FULL refund. In many States the seller also can NOT take out a restocking fee IF the product was inaccurately described and sold.

So, yes, in many cases the seller would be responsible for whatever they put in writing, and in some States, whatever they may have said vocally as well if it can be proven they said it.

Now, total simulants or other natural stones misrepresented are an entirely different scenario. Passing a single stone off as one thing when it is entirely something else is pretty open shut because it proves lack of due diligence on the sellers part. And, depending how often this person has or is doing it, could lead into actual serious criminal charges of mail fraud, theft, etc. aside from the civil ramifications.

Now please keep in mind all the above info is based off of the State I live in and worked in as law enforcement, PA USA. And may or may not carry over to the laws of your State or Country. Or may carry over but have differing requirements even.

But that is yet another reason to deal with a reputable seller within your same country as you live in. You have rights, easy enough to enforce, easy enough to return, and most all reputable dealers would have a non-expiring refund policy/issue if they ever sold something that ended up differing from what they sold it as! And it does happen though, even to the legit of the legit and thorough of the thorough even. NO one is perfect and no matter what machines are used they are still built and programmed and calibrated by humans and the results are then read and interpreted by human(s) which means mistakes can be and will ultimately be made somewhere at sometime, just the nature of how it all works. Much of Gemology is just an educated man/woman's best guess based off of specific testing to acquire specific results. Also why more then a single test is done too, or at least should be!

 

[Pandora II]

We had a discussion a while back in one of my gemmology classes about this kind of thing.

My tutor's take on it was that most gem labs issue 'reports' not 'certificates' and it normally states that origin is 'in their opinion likely to be'.

I'm not sure that anything regarding treatment or origin can be taken to be a 100% goldplated guarantee. It becomes especially difficult over time - technology improves, what may be possible today may not have been possible 10 or even 5 years ago.

Regarding the other comments. If it's somewhere like eBay then I like to score the odd bargain - especially for my 'educational' collection. If it's a quality vendor then I like to feel I have paid the correct market price - discounts are nice but wouldn't influence my decision to purchase. I'm very picky and tend to save in order to buy the best I can in the size I can afford for my true collection.

 

[Arkteia]

Certain locations of origin, like Kashmir, can dramatically increase the value of a gem.

This is only the case if those higher valued stones have the traits which are expected from those origins, (or if the buyer has a low IQ). An ugly stone from Kashmir is still an ugly stone and could only have an increased value to those who are buying based on origin, in which case they are setting themselves up to be fleeced. As for rubies, a fine ruby from anywhere is always going to be worth a lot of money and a fine ruby from Africa is better than a moderate ruby from Burma. I just can't get a handle on this whole idea of origin increasing value. It seems like a person is buying the story and not the stone. Why would anyone be more concerned about where a stone comes from than what it looks like? Just seems odd to me.

"Gems have no pedigree". But if it were so, would Wittelsbach diamond cost that much? It may not be the finest blue diamond. If you are paying a premium for a Gucci bad just because it is Gucci why not charge a premium for a Burmese ruby because of the name? Names always hold premiums, look at all designer stuff. Half of it is ugly or not wearable.

Sorry, I have messed up with the quotes. Actually I was commenting on Michael's post.

As to Fleabay... I don't care where I buy if price/quality ratio is decent. Cheap stones are not necessarity of poor quality. In 2009 several jewelry stores including Barney Banks and Biddle were going out of business and I bought stones and jewelry at a fraction of a cost. Cheap? Surely. Poor quality? Unlikely. Same for ebay.

 

[T L]

The Whittelsbach is a good example, it has a royal pedigree, which influences the price, but even if it didn't have a pedigree, it may have still sold for just as much. This size is extremely rare to find in a blue diamond in this day and age, and with the ever increasing prices of blue diamonds, I'm sure it will be worth far more in the near future.

As for "cheap stones," I'm sure many spinel collectors are sitting with huge smiles on their faces admiring the stones they purchased so cheaply not too long ago. That is one undervalued stone that is just now reaching some deserved attention.

 

[Michael_E]

"Gems have no pedigree". But if it were so, would Wittelsbach diamond cost that much? It may not be the finest blue diamond. If you are paying a premium for a Gucci bad just because it is Gucci why not charge a premium for a Burmese ruby because of the name? Names always hold premiums, look at all designer stuff. Half of it is ugly or not wearable.

Sorry, I have messed up with the quotes. Actually I was commenting on Michael's post.

Good, that means that I get to reply and expand on my comments. Gems do have a pedigree, it's called a story and it often becomes unattached from reality. The Wittelsbach has increased value because of it's history and prior values. Every person buying into the history of that stone gets to have a little story of their own and that's what they are really buying. I mean the stone is nice and all that, but getting to buy your way into the chain of stories attached to a historical artifact is priceless, at least to people who do it. Why do you think what's his name recut the thing? He wanted to make a bid splash with the story and since everyone from that point forward would be hard pressed to top that. He not only has increased the value of the story, and the stone, but has topped what anyone after him would be willing to do. This may not be true though, I can see a time in a few thousand years when the Wittelsbach has been "whittled" down to a 2 carat stone worth 10 billion dollars with a long line of "gutsy" nuts each taking their turn at modifying the story. I won't comment on Gucci...I just don't "get it".

As to Fleabay... I don't care where I buy if price/quality ratio is decent. Cheap stones are not necessarity of poor quality. In 2009 several jewelry stores including Barney Banks and Biddle were going out of business and I bought stones and jewelry at a fraction of a cost. Cheap? Surely. Poor quality? Unlikely. Same for ebay.

Cheap stones are not necessarily of poor quality any more than expensive stones are of great quality. It's up to the buyer to determine if what they are buying is worth what they are paying. The responsibility is on the buyer and always has been. Buying a "cert" for anything is just buying someone else's opinion and, once again, you are buying a form of a story. This story is about the stone and is NOT the stone. So if you don't know what you are doing, you are either forced to trust the story from the best and most respected story teller or you have to learn what you are doing and trust yourself. In either case you will be limited in your attempts to hold someone else responsible for what you have received and accepted, particularly when your acceptance is based on something as nebulous as origin. Why nebulous? Because until fairly recently it was just not possible to determine exactly where a stone originated. People bought and sold gems based on what they looked like and so there were a large number of stones sold which originated in all sorts of places other then where they were claimed to have originated. Australia for instance has produced a fair number of very fine sapphires which were sold as Thai sapphires and I imagine even Kashmir sapphires. In the mind of the sellers it's, "Hey, they look like it, why not sell them that way?"

In the last 20 years or so the machines and techniques for determining origin have gotten better and they may be as much as 90% or more efficient at telling where something came from. The problem is that the relationship between beauty and origin has not kept pace and probably never will. In other words if you were to pick two equally priced and equally fine rubies, one from Burma and one from Africa, and didn't know where they were from, which would you buy ? Now someone says, "Hey this stone is from Burma" and you say, "Sure, but the African stone is are more rare with only three of this quality ever being found" which one do you buy now? Tough choice, but the choice is no longer based on the stone, but on the story that can be attached to it. Imagine how cheated you would feel if new techniques showed that this stone was really from Greenland. Of course twenty years later Greenland will become world renowned for having the finest rubies and now your sows ear has turned into a silk purse. I just think it's a little crazy.

I love E-Bay. I buy all kinds of equipment on there and have even bought a few gems in rough and cut form. The equipment has been 100% as it was represented and has always been a fantastic bargain. The gems have been about 50% truthfully represented and that percentage has dropped in the last few years. Not everything is bad, but you'd better know what you're doing and be willing to assume some risk. The low priced settings that I've worked on from E-Bay have all be acceptable for their price level, but they have all been thin and of lower durability than the commercial goods produced in the US and Europe. You get what you pay for and as TL loves to say, you'd better "verify it" or you may end up a loser.

 

[T L]

Cheap stones are not necessarily of poor quality any more than expensive stones are of great quality. It's up to the buyer to determine if what they are buying is worth what they are paying. The responsibility is on the buyer and always has been.

Very true. I will say this, I rather buy a cheap stone that turns out to be a fraud, then a very expensive stone that turns out to not be a good value at all. At least with the former, I'm out very little money and not potentially thousands. The more expensive the stone, the more the buyer needs to do their homework, get REPUTABLE verification, and find out the fair price for such a gem.

 

[Arkteia]

And you know... I'd rather we all drop the term Fleabay. Not only do we assume than all Tanzanian vendors are dishonest (and we know it is not the case), but the name casts a bad shadow on our well-known vendors who don't even come from Tanzania. Veblorn sells on ebay, and she sells good stones, I'd hate to say her store is Fleabay. Same for the Gem Trader, same for Amethyst guy, Uli, and many, many others. These people are fine, respected members of the trade and it would be unfair to them. We do not need to travel far - our own RockHugger is now a vendor there. She worked very hard, got a degree, she has a very good score although the store is small, and she works hard. I just think we ought to show more respect to vendors who we know. Please do not use this term. I used it the first time, in this thread, and I feel bad about it.

Michael - I used Gucci mostly because I do not like their purses, but "my Gucci" sounds pricey. Coco Chanel was making cheap hats at the beginning of her career and look what a price tag her name carries now!