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Las Vegas shooting

AGBF

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So much to read so little time, right? We do read a bit of history around here. Generally, I don't feel I have time for fiction. It's rarely as interesting anyway.

You have such an élite household. I read almost only fiction. And I find it very interesting. When I had a colonoscopy a couple of weeks ago my husband came up from Virginia to support me through it. He is reading Willard Trask's translation of Casanova's memoirs and picked up one of my only non-fiction books, Hitler's Vienna: A Portrait of the Tyrant as a Young Man, to supplement it. I mentioned this in The Royal Jewels thread because it impressed me so much!
 

AGBF

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OK now they are finally opening it up

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/1...-las-vegas-shooting-it-breaks-case-wide-open/

Well, we all know what they want to say, right?

The issue is now, prevention. I think the toxic thing for a man with such traits was to be in a closed environment of casinos, it makes people even more alienated. He once spent 4 months in a casino hotel without going outside.

Our state is not super social. My youngest kid is not super social. For four years I was investing all my weekends into maintaining his only friend. Who lives very far away. It is worth it. Now he has more friends. Things have changed.

Thoughts?

Supposedly (according to the headlines) police now have a motive. But scroll down and what is it? All I read is that they have found out he is "mentally ill". Except that they also found he visited a prostitute and had "violent rape" fantasies. That is hardly a motive. Did I miss something?
 

ksinger

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You have such an élite household. I read almost only fiction. And I find it very interesting. When I had a colonoscopy a couple of weeks ago my husband came up from Virginia to support me through it. He is reading Willard Trask's translation of Casanova's memoirs and picked up one of my only non-fiction books, Hitler's Vienna: A Portrait of the Tyrant as a Young Man, to supplement it. I mentioned this in The Royal Jewels thread because it impressed me so much!

Surely you jest, Deb. Nothing is elite here, I promise. (Well, maybe 'ceptin' our liquor cabinet. Matata will recall the scotch snobbery down our way. ha!) Interesting "stuff" though, I'll give you that. I've got some cool artwork, by which you may also assume I'm not a minimalist. ;-)

I'm always in awe of people who read a lot of fiction, and get a lot out of it. I feel like a literature moron most times. It's not that I read no fiction, it's just that most (not all) of my forays into general fiction, bore me. Science fiction? That's my favorite, but other than that? It's why I rarely post in the "What are you reading now" thread. That and I'm mostly sure my reading choices bore everyone.
 

Arkteia

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Supposedly (according to the headlines) police now have a motive. But scroll down and what is it? All I read is that they have found out he is "mentally ill". Except that they also found he visited a prostitute and had "violent rape" fantasies. That is hardly a motive. Did I miss something?

They are hinting at this elephant in the room. "Most mass murderers are loners". But say, 98% of mass murderers being loners does not make the reverse true. Surely there are protective and provoking factors.

However, what about another big market, video games. Even this guy was playing video poker. There are first shooter games. Isolating and raising interest to guns. What do people think of them?
 

arkieb1

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They are hinting at this elephant in the room. "Most mass murderers are loners". But say, 98% of mass murderers being loners does not make the reverse true. Surely there are protective and provoking factors.

However, what about another big market, video games. Even this guy was playing video poker. There are first shooter games. Isolating and raising interest to guns. What do people think of them?

Just because someone is a loner for whatever reason doesn't make them automatically a mass murderer, and he had a girlfriend that he sent overseas before this spree..... Gambling and prostitutes suggests to me an addictive person that needs to get off on the thrill or high of something and they might be far more important indicators of his mental state than simply being alone. I think he is throwing everyone because on the surface at least, outwardly he seemed like a fairly normal guy.

I read a lot of Australian fiction in my spare time, sometimes they are writers I have met (I studied Australian literature at University) or know personally, so that makes it all the more interesting, and I confess I've had a novel in my head for a while now that hopefully one day I will have the patience to write.
 

Arkteia

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Just because someone is a loner for whatever reason doesn't make them automatically a mass murderer, and he had a girlfriend that he sent overseas before this spree..... Gambling and prostitutes suggests to me an addictive person that needs to get off on the thrill or high of something and they might be far more important indicators of his mental state than simply being alone. I think he is throwing everyone because on the surface at least, outwardly he seemed like a fairly normal guy.

I read a lot of Australian fiction in my spare time, sometimes they are writers I have met (I studied Australian literature at University) or know personally, so that makes it all the more interesting, and I confess I've had a novel in my head for a while now that hopefully one day I will have the patience to write.

I love your Australiian Colleen McCullough, she is so versatile. I would love to read another Australian novel.

He was not a normal guy, rather, 1) a very private guy, and, 2) in the US, the right to privacy is sacred.

His girlfriend also tried to normalize his behavior, it seems (like sending cookies to his mom).

But in old country, curiosity would have prevailed. And I know some other countries where gregariousness is valued and where his behavior would have stood out.
 

arkieb1

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I love your Australiian Colleen McCullough, she is so versatile. I would love to read another Australian novel.

Hmmmm, I probably read more modern less atypical Australian writers, I did meet her once she was a guest lecturer at Sydney University a couple of times. She has an even blunter (or more snarky sounding, as one PSer put it) personality than I do :)
 

AGBF

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After I discovered Liane Moriarty I read every book she ever wrote, no matter how obscure, and enjoyed it thoroughly! reading her books is the only reason I have a clue what a "pavlova" is. I had to look the word up when I first started reading her books. We aren't big on pavlovas here in The States.
 

nkarma

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What I find most interesting or ironic about the gun debate is the right to bear arms in the 2nd Amendment was included so the revolutionaries could topple a government similar to the one they just won independence from if their rights were infringed. In 1776, a well armed miltia with guns had a good chance of winning a war against corrupt governments.

Today the American Military is the most powerful military in the history of humanity. Other whole countries with trillion dollar military budgets likely cannot defeat the American miltary with fleet loads of the latest technology at their disposal including nuclear weapons, biological weapons, drones, etc So this whole argument of the govt cannot have a gun owner registry or control use of what to them is a weapon for neandrathals is like an ant telling a lion they cannot regulate their use of pebbles. Do you honestly think a lion loses a wink of sleep that the ants have pebbles?

In the end, there is only one reason Americans own guns. It's completely an emotional decision on the basis that they are very afraid for their physical safety and it's the best weapon they got so they feel secure and hopeful it will save them should they face a threat.
 

whitewave

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What I find most interesting or ironic about the gun debate is the right to bear arms in the 2nd Amendment was included so the revolutionaries could topple a government similar to the one they just won independence from if their rights were infringed. In 1776, a well armed miltia with guns had a good chance of winning a war against corrupt governments.

Today the American Military is the most powerful military in the history of humanity. Other whole countries with trillion dollar military budgets likely cannot defeat the American miltary with fleet loads of the latest technology at their disposal including nuclear weapons, biological weapons, drones, etc So this whole argument of the govt cannot have a gun owner registry or control use of what to them is a weapon for neandrathals is like an ant telling a lion they cannot regulate their use of pebbles. Do you honestly think a lion loses a wink of sleep that the ants have pebbles?

In the end, there is only one reason Americans own guns. It's completely an emotional decision on the basis that they are very afraid for their physical safety and it's the best weapon they got so they feel secure and hopeful it will save them should they face a threat.

Eh, at this point, I would assume if the people had to rise up against the government, we can't be sure the military would fight for the regime. With the age of the internet, etc, I would expect at least half the military to bounce out in a theoretical civil uprising. (Dictatorship, etc)

In a hostile foreign takeover, our military can't be everwhere at once. A couple of well placed foreign missles could take out enough armories, etc, that the average person would need at least enough ammo to hold themselves over until military got there.

I will go ahead and be optimistic that civil war is out of the question.

Adding, for me a gun was helpful in holding off a criminal until police got there. So for every time a gun wouldn't have helped, there is a situation where a gun did help. Maybe the ratio isn't 1:1. But you can't discount the times a gun did help someone survive or escape victimization.
 

whitewave

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Btw, I think DH has enough guns, and I don't think he plans on buying more. I think for most reasonable people, there is a personal limit.

I do know a crazy who has stockpiled crazy amounts of weapons. He is a viet nam vet. I'm sure it is in the hundreds.
 

ksinger

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nkama said:

Today the American Military is the most powerful military in the history of humanity. Other whole countries with trillion dollar military budgets likely cannot defeat the American miltary with fleet loads of the latest technology at their disposal including nuclear weapons, biological weapons, drones, etc So this whole argument of the govt cannot have a gun owner registry or control use of what to them is a weapon for neandrathals is like an ant telling a lion they cannot regulate their use of pebbles. Do you honestly think a lion loses a wink of sleep that the ants have pebbles?

Well, there ya go. Mostly spot-on. There is also that pesky bit about using the military on American soil against the population. I suspect the military brass would balk more than a bit. But then who knows in The Age of The Great Cheeto. One can only hope there are a few grownups running the military. But I'm pretty sure that the scenario of national military-turned-against-heroic-populace is a phantasm, since it's never happened. It's not unlike 2000 years of saying the return of Jesus is just around this next corner. After awhile, getting on with life and not standing on a high hill waiting (the gun equivalent would be arming to fight the gov) is probably the best. However, there is a significant subset of gun owners who cut their teeth on Rambo/gun/violence-as-redemption/black-helicopters-are-coming movies and attitudes, and have really deluded themselves into thinking something similar would work for them. And that truly does fit the definition of paranoia.

In the end, there is only one reason Americans own guns. It's completely an emotional decision on the basis that they are very afraid for their physical safety and it's the best weapon they got so they feel secure and hopeful it will save them should they face a threat.

And because I'm truly one of those in the middle - ie - a gun owner who favors gun registration and a few other things - I'm going to say you're dead wrong here, and clearly don't know many, if any, living breathing gun owners. I don't get my knickers in a twist about this sort of statement like some others, but it is wrong and needs to be called out. Making gun owners into 2-dimensional caricature is no more fair than gun owners thinking non-gun-owners all secretly want to disarm them and are plotting that by suggesting even the smallest changes. For one thing, saying there is only one reason for why humans do anything is almost always a dangerous overr-simplification of an issue, it certainly is in this case. For another, there are guns and guns. A schuetzen rifle is a gun, but I doubt that's what you're talking about, and I can assure you that if someone owns that gun, he/she is not very afraid for his physical safety, did not buy it for self defense, nor is itching to use it to fight the evil government. I don't often agree with Red, but she and I have both noted (me in earlier years here) that nuance and genuine knowledge of the serious complexity of gun issues, is typically lacking in these discussions.
 

whitewave

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[QUOTE="ksinger]

And because I'm truly one of those in the middle - ie - a gun owner who favors gun registration and a few other things - I'm going to say you're dead wrong here, and clearly don't know many, if any, living breathing gun owners. I don't get my knickers in a twist about this sort of statement like some others, but it is wrong and needs to be called out. Making gun owners into 2-dimensional caricature is no more fair than gun owners thinking non-gun-owners all secretly want to disarm them and are plotting that by suggesting even the smallest changes. For one thing, saying there is only one reason for why humans do anything is almost always a dangerous overr-simplification of an issue, it certainly is in this case. For another, there are guns and guns. A schuetzen rifle is a gun, but I doubt that's what you're talking about, and I can assure you that if someone owns that gun, he/she is not very afraid for his physical safety, did not buy it for self defense, nor is itching to use it to fight the evil government. I don't often agree with Red, but she and I have both noted (me in earlier years here) that nuance and genuine knowledge of the serious complexity of gun issues, is typically lacking in these discussions.[/QUOTE]

This is all too true. I've called this thinking out on other threads elsewhere many times.

If you don't own a gun, you have to at least admit when you are trying to make a point, that you are GUESSING based on not owning a gun why people do own guns.

It is also the same when speculating on any type of foreign invasion-- none of us know how and where this would happen. There is such a thing as a "sneak attack"....

The same goes with terrorist attacks. None of us know when and on what scale the next attack on the usa would happen. When that Boston bomber was hiding out in that neighborhood, and even the police didn't know where he was, wouldn't you have wanted a gun just in case he went in your house? Maybe you wouldn't, but I would!

Also, let me point out that after Katrina, DH was allowed back in within a week as he is a first responder. You better believe when there was no 911 system to back him up when he was alone at the house in an anarchy/looting/militaty conducting rescues (and therefore not there as a civil peacekeeping role) situation that he was damn glad to have protection in that case. If you haven't experienced being one of the only people in a civilization destroyed, you don't know what that is like.

There are myriad reasons why people own guns, and I also don't appreciate getting made into a caricature (I have used this word too in regard to gun discussions) that we are fearful, sleeping with loaded guns under a pillow (seriously no one does that that I have ever heard of!) and dying to take up arms against something.

I brought up points here in regard to some of those ideas, and certainly as I have mentioned, guns have come in handy as back up for us.

What about in Dallas or Baton Rouge when unknown gunman/possible gunmen were shooting and killing police officers, so the force was depleated on 1) officers dying and 2) needing all available LE to try and neutralize that threat, maybe having a gun might be a good idea if you lived in that area?

What about like I said at the sports event, when it took 3 calls to 911 and 20 minutes before LE could get to us...

If you don't own a gun, do you assume if you call 911, LE would be there within 3-5 minutes?

BUT...

Marksmanship is fun! I love the sport!!! It is challenging for me because I am right hand/left eye dominant. I would love to be so good at it as to compete.
 
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ksinger

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Yeah, cross-eye dominant here too. Didn't find out for quite a while (husband-then-boyfriend was remiss!) so had to re-learn how shoot from the left shoulder. Felt weird at first, but not having to close that non-dominant eye made things much much easier.

I haven't shot anything in decades though. Gun range trip has long been on the list. Lots of things on the list, sadly.
 

whitewave

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Yeah, cross-eye dominant here too. Didn't find out for quite a while (husband-then-boyfriend was remiss!) so had to re-learn how shoot from the left shoulder. Felt weird at first, but not having to close that non-dominant eye made things much much easier.

I haven't shot anything in decades though. Gun range trip has long been on the list. Lots of things on the list, sadly.

I'm still in the left shoulder learning phase.
 

whitewave

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Also remember, some of us would be happy to explain what kinds of guns we own and why, but that is somewhat of a security risk on the internet and is best left offline in a personal conversation.
 

House Cat

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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/07/...-gun-ownership.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

This article outlines the type of gun owner I know. The people I know who hunt, do so because mass produced meat is immoral. They are wildlife conservationists. They spend all of their free time banding and tracking animals, preserving their habitat, etc. As a matter of fact, many of them have left their professions to work in wildlife conservation.

I dunno... There's a lot of stigma out there about hunters and gun owners and I get it. But we should get to know the good ones too. There's so much more to these people than dumbass joe redneck who's flying a confederate flag on the back of his truck, threatening all out war if we take his guns.

On the other hand, I feel it is up to the responsible, sensible gun owners to band together and create a loud voice that will let the public know that they are ok with more laws. Tell us that they are ok with keeping the public safe. Tell us they are not ok with the idiotic unsafe behavior of the people who just subscribe to their second amendment rights but don't see why they bear any responsibility in keeping the rest of us safe.

Gun ownership is an awesome responsibility. I don't see why that isn't stressed enough. It would make me very happy for the responsible ones to make it their mission to get that message across.
 

House Cat

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I'm going to speak in the simplest of terms...ETA: sorry, because I am unable to be technical...

The second amendment gives you the inalienable right to self defense. A friend, a police officer, who worked during the LA riots, described the people in the Asian neighborhoods arming themselves and defending their homes and businesses before law enforcement could arrive.

He said something to the effect that your second amendment rights allow you to defend yourself against criminals in those kinds of situations.

It isn't always about defending yourself against the government. Sometimes you have to defend yourself in times of lawlessness.

This is what I understand, but I can't be technical about it.
 
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Calliecake

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I heard on a TV show this morning that changes will be made to open aired concerts across the country, due to the Las Vegas shooting. In the last few days I've heard on news shows that changes into hotel baggage check in needs to be looked at.

Of course no one is talking about a national database for registering all guns. Across the country gun laws to prevent guns from being bought in other states and taken across state lines because your state may be stricter than another state. As it stands now you can still purchase as many guns as your heart desires. Magazines are available with insane amounts of bullets. You can also continue to buy them at gun shows where there are many loopholes. And Hey, bumps stocks are selling like hot cakes this past week. Guns are the problem, it's just no wants to address that issue. This country is brain dead.
 

redwood66

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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/07/...-gun-ownership.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

This article outlines the type of gun owner I know. The people I know who hunt, do so because mass produced meat is immoral. They are wildlife conservationists. They spend all of their free time banding and tracking animals, preserving their habitat, etc. As a matter of fact, many of them have left their professions to work in wildlife conservation.

I dunno... There's a lot of stigma out there about hunters and gun owners and I get it. But we should get to know the good ones too. There's so much more to these people than dumbass joe redneck who's flying a confederate flag on the back of his truck, threatening all out war if we take his guns.

On the other hand, I feel it is up to the responsible, sensible gun owners to band together and create a loud voice that will let the public know that they are ok with more laws. Tell us that they are ok with keeping the public safe. Tell us they are not ok with the idiotic unsafe behavior of the people who just subscribe to their second amendment rights but don't see why they bear any responsibility in keeping the rest of us safe.

Gun ownership is an awesome responsibility. I don't see why that isn't stressed enough. It would make me very happy for the responsible ones to make it their mission to get that message across.

Thanks for the article HC. I agree with you.

On the bold, I thought that is what I and others were doing by discussing here on PS by using pretty much the same words. LOL.
 

whitewave

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https://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2015/12/police-response-times

From December 2015
"A recent joint investigation by The New Orleans Advocate and WWL-TV found that New Orleans police have taken an average of 79 minutes to respond to 911 calls so far this year. That figure has tripled since 2010. And while police usually come more quickly to priority calls, response times in those cases have doubled as well, to an average of 20 minutes."

August 2017:
http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2017/08/crime_tourism_new_orleans_fren.html

(Tourists beaten)
"These guys weren't acting irresponsibly," said Kristian Sonnier, vice president of communications and public relations for the New Orleans CVB. "They were doing what we would hope all our visitors do: Taking a stroll after an early dinner."

http://www.theadvocate.com/new_orle...cle_bea50f6c-a7c6-11e7-85c1-a37db35dc3cc.html
(Plunging satisfaction among citizens with NOPD)

"The shift in perception came as the number of major crimes jumped 12 percent between the first half of last year and the first half of this year, according to NOPD statistics. Homicides spiked sharply in the first half of 2017, although they have slowed considerably since July."




A year or so ago, around the corner from my New Orleans house, 4 people in a home (high end, tony neighborhood with historically low crime) were beated, tied up and robbed in an event that lasted about 8 hours. They live not even all the way around the corner from my house there.

So....... what if you lived in an area where violent crime was increasing, you couldn't trust or count on LE to get there in a timely manner if you needed them, and inner city crime came to your historically low/no crime area?

(Oh, and about three years ago, my DH was hit with AK-47 shrapnel on New Year's even while outside boiling crabs at eleven pm-- cause it is new orleans and you boil crabs when you feel like it. The scrapnel thank god hit the cement and then the bullet and a piece of cement hit him in the head. I'm just pointing out things you live with in New Orleans.... a very cool city that is more European feeling than usa, but with usa crime and problems...) (oh,btw, this bullet was clearly from gangs shooting guns in the air for New Years Eve miles away)

Maybe you live (or would like to believe that you live) in a lovely, suburban, low crime area and you don't need guns because you can rely on the government to be there to save you when you need saving. Good for you. I'm happy that you live in a safe area.

Some of us don't live in safe areas any more. Some of us can't rely on others to rescue us. Some of us prefer to at least attempt or have the tools handy to attempt to save ourselves from crime if needed.

And, I have to say, this is the first time I'm recounting some of these stories online and it sounds like I live a somewhat risky life, and nothing could be further from the truth! I'm super low key and somewhat of a homebody, so that these things happened to us tells me it can happen to anybody.
 
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whitewave

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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/07/...-gun-ownership.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

This article outlines the type of gun owner I know. The people I know who hunt, do so because mass produced meat is immoral. They are wildlife conservationists. They spend all of their free time banding and tracking animals, preserving their habitat, etc. As a matter of fact, many of them have left their professions to work in wildlife conservation.

I dunno... There's a lot of stigma out there about hunters and gun owners and I get it. But we should get to know the good ones too. There's so much more to these people than dumbass joe redneck who's flying a confederate flag on the back of his truck, threatening all out war if we take his guns.

On the other hand, I feel it is up to the responsible, sensible gun owners to band together and create a loud voice that will let the public know that they are ok with more laws. Tell us that they are ok with keeping the public safe. Tell us they are not ok with the idiotic unsafe behavior of the people who just subscribe to their second amendment rights but don't see why they bear any responsibility in keeping the rest of us safe.

Gun ownership is an awesome responsibility. I don't see why that isn't stressed enough. It would make me very happy for the responsible ones to make it their mission to get that message across.

I think this is starting to happen. It is getting to the point where responsible gun owners are concerned about the loons who have guns.
 

whitewave

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I heard on a TV show this morning that changes will be made to open aired concerts across the country, due to the Las Vegas shooting. In the last few days I've heard on news shows that changes into hotel baggage check in needs to be looked at.

Of course no one is talking about a national database for registering all guns. Across the country gun laws to prevent guns from being bought in other states and taken across state lines because your state may be stricter than another state. As it stands now you can still purchase as many guns as your heart desires. Magazines are available with insane amounts of bullets. You can also continue to buy them at gun shows where there are many loopholes. And Hey, bumps stocks are selling like hot cakes this past week. Guns are the problem, it's just no wants to address that issue. This country is brain dead.

Yes, I have heard people this week who never heard of bump stock before wanting to buy it now before it becomes illegal and I can't support that line of thinking.
 

House Cat

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Thanks for the article HC. I agree with you.

On the bold, I thought that is what I and others were doing by discussing here on PS by using pretty much the same words. LOL.
Yes.

I think I was speaking on a grander scale, through advocacy and political action. You guys need more than just the NRA.
 

whitewave

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Yes.

I think I was speaking on a grander scale, through advocacy and political action. You guys need more than just the NRA.

The NRA is becoming like the AMA (American Medical Association which now only represents about 20% of doctors' voices). They are more representing their own interests rather than gun owners. As I mentioned, we don't belong to or support NRA.

We likely do need a new mouthpiece.
 

redwood66

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The NRA is becoming like the AMA (American Medical Association which now only represents about 20% of doctors' voices). They are more representing their own interests rather than gun owners. As I mentioned, we don't belong to or support NRA.

We likely do need a new mouthpiece.

Or pushback to the NRA on some of their issues they take up rather than a whole new group.
 

whitewave

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Or pushback to the NRA on some of their issues they take up rather than a whole new group.

Right. But it would be like trying to push the RNC off an anti-woman/anti-gay platform-- good luck with that.

I have no answers.
 

Rhea

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@whitewave This is something I think about quite a bit. I grew up in the US and lived there until mid-20s, but until I lived in Europe I'd never realised how violent the US as a whole is. I hate to sound like an old woman because there are a lot of places I'd travel, but the US sends shivers down my spine. My DH avoids the US other than when he has to go and teases that he shouldn't have married American. I can never quite put my finger on which came first though, the violence so the general public arms themselves. Or the general public arming themselves leading to increased violence.
 

whitewave

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@whitewave This is something I think about quite a bit. I grew up in the US and lived there until mid-20s, but until I lived in Europe I'd never realised how violent the US as a whole is. I hate to sound like an old woman because there are a lot of places I'd travel, but the US sends shivers down my spine. My DH avoids the US other than when he has to go and teases that he shouldn't have married American. I can never quite put my finger on which came first though, the violence so the general public arms themselves. Or the general public arming themselves leading to increased violence.

As I mentioned before, drugs, especially Meth is a large problem (and flakka and synthetic marajuana), as is our failed war against drugs.

I think we need to leagalize drugs and TREAT addiction and the probable underlying mental health issues. As I get older, I am also more interested in Universal Healthcare to deal with all of this too. Maybe not single payer, but healthcare for all, yes.

And I swear I am not a conspiracy theorist, but I really wonder if there is a connection with food supply and crazy behavior here. Maybe it was from when we went to low fat/no fat diets and deprived brains of needed fat? Americans are on so many antidepressants, sleeping pills, ADHD drugs etc.

I think people are clearly acting "crazier" for whatever reason. And hey, I'm on AD, sleeping pills been diagnosed with ADD too, so I'm not disparaging anyone....

It's the people who are undiagnosed and unmedicated I worry about, though I can't ignore the growing need for Americans to be medicated lately.... if we need it, sure, treat it. But is there an underlying fixable reason we are on all of these drugs in the first place?
 
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