Large truck kills dozens in France

[AGBF]

DS-

How is President Obama responsible for fundamentalist religious movements in other countries? I strongly disagree that he should alienate all Muslims by emphasizing that many people in the United States are not Muslim and therefore that we condemn all Islam. Is he, now, supposed to speak out on everything? What about his speaking out on that athlete who beat his child with a switch? Was that, also, his job? Many people in our country as well as in other countries have practices that I regard as primitive. We may be able to outlaw them in the United States. We have less power in other sovereign nations. Perhaps we should start with reforming our own country first. Let's get rid of our own violence against women and children.

Deb, I didn't say the president is responsible for fundamentalist religious movements in other countries. But the terrorists in Nice and San Bernadino, etc. had an ideology in common. That ideology is alive here in the US. No one on this thread has said it applies to all Muslims since that would be absurd. But others have pointed out that there hasn't been a huge outcry against extremism by the broader Muslim community leadership in the US, either. There should be no offense to modern American Muslims who reject Sharia law and embrace the law and freedom we offer here by using the term "radical Islamic terrorism". Hillary Clinton will use the term.

I'm not big on forcing the president to say the magic words. I think trying to make him say them is a Republican trick, actually. And divisive as hell in the Muslim world. And bad for US foreign policy.

On the other hand, if wife beating is terrorism, it should be called that when done by white Christian males in the US, too. And actually, I have NOTHING against calling it that. OR in having the terrorism penalties apply to wife-beating males. Re-open Guantanamo and waterboard them.

AGBF

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Deb, I am not sure whether you are not understanding what I am saying or not, but you are twisting what I am saying. Spousal abuse is not terrorism and I did not say that. We are talking about an extreme ideology that happens to oppress women (and has kidnapped and raped women and held them as "wives") and wants to eliminate those of other faiths if they do not convert to their form of religion (jihad). They so believe in their cause that they are willing to die for it. I totally agree with the Atran quotes that all who are recruited to the cause are not necessarily doing so because of deeply held religious beliefs, but the movement itself is rooted in particular beliefs. Another quote said that we ignore ISIS to our peril and I agree with that. You cannot conquer an enemy unless you understand them well. Our president needs to be strongly challenging Muslim leaders in the US in every city to be publicly condemning every act of jihad/terrorism in the name of Islam. People here must know that their religious leaders are absolutely opposed to violence in the name of their religion, and that is one way to prevent some from joining the extremists.

 

[Tekate]

I agree with most, if not all, of iLander's post. I don't like it that they are forcing their religious doctrine on everyone, much less an extreme version of it. I am also surprised to not read of moderate Muslims not speaking out against this extreme version of their religion.

It is interesting because I have friends who are Muslim who do speak out against this extremism but it does seem that in the public eye the general Muslim population does not. But yes I have many friends who are Muslim who do speak out against this.

Missy,
I spent some time in a Muslim dominant county a few weeks ago and none of them spoke about the increase in extremist attacks. None condoned the violence and acted as though it never happened. The non-Muslims didn't seem to really care about it either as long as it wasn't on their soil.

I think this is the most frustrating for many people because we need their help in this.

I recently spent time in France, many Muslims there, the ones I met ALL apologized to me as an American. I was in a taxi riding around Paris and had a muslim driver from Algeria, nice guy and he spent most of the time saying he wasn't bad, he lived his life fairly, he loved France and his kids. I met a family from Saudi Arabia on the chunnel from London to Paris, (and she was in full FULL burqa)..the husband spend 3.5 hours showing me pix of his life, his daughter (his wife interpreted), his parents, his honeymoon, he said over and over to me that he wished our countries could be 'very good friends' as he loved America.. Yes his wife was all bound up but I will say she had a nice coach purse and designer shoes. All of these things are anecdotal btw. It's just not so simple, guns, religion, it's all very sad.

 

[Tekate]

I will not debate with you because your ideology to me is ridiculous. There is no debate in my mind as a conservative.

And therein lies the problem with all of us. Married to our personal ideology to the exclusion of all others. Thick walls built in our minds about who is absolutely categorically right. Lack of conversation and debate solves nothing. Conversation and debate, no matter how rancorous or contentious, has the potential to shift thinking into a new arena where all potential solutions can be aired, shared, and cherrypicked for the best resolution. We simply have to keep reminding ourselves that compromise is part of the foundation of progress.

Matata I so wish this were true. The problem is we don't see either side willing to go to the middle. We have seen over and over again in America the religious right forcing their views on people, this is horrendous to me, I am thrilled, happy, beyond belief that religious people have their happy religion, but I do not want to be part of it, I don't want my kids to be part of it. I would like religion to be in the home, at church/temple/mosque, when I was a kid my mom didn't associate with protestants, but she never said a bad word about them, it was just 'we are catholic'.. abortion, I don't mind if people who are anti abortion don't have one, I don't like that they force their view on others, I'm fine with a 12 week stop.. but I don't see the other side as ever stopping.. I support capital punishment btw. I support limits on helping.. I also support taxing the rich more.. No conservatives will ever read a thing about Kansas and how supply-side economics as ruined the state, literally ruined it.. supply side doesn't work, yet it's still touted, these things I find very very frustrating.. If someone can point me to the middle, I'm there.

I find conservatives never back their beliefs up with facts, if a conservative won't accept the NYTimes then why should I accept Briebart? but I am willing to accept something in the middle, where is the middle? I find conservatives rely more on 'feelings' and 'I know this to be true' rather than facts.. I would and will meet in the middle but both sides have to.

 

[ksinger]

Woot! I found the Kindle version for 99 cents! Who knew?? I prefer genuine books, but waiting on the real one to come home is going to take too long. Electronic will do in a pinch.

Yes, I prefer real books too but kindle/other electronic devices do come in handy and .99 is a real deal. I am reading it on my Mac as it is much easier than reading it on the kindle.

How goes the reading Missy? Still finding it worthwhile?

 

[missy]

Woot! I found the Kindle version for 99 cents! Who knew?? I prefer genuine books, but waiting on the real one to come home is going to take too long. Electronic will do in a pinch.

Yes, I prefer real books too but kindle/other electronic devices do come in handy and .99 is a real deal. I am reading it on my Mac as it is much easier than reading it on the kindle.

How goes the reading Missy? Still finding it worthwhile?

Yes I am Karen. It is a good read. I wish I could say I was enjoying it but the subject matter is not enjoyable however I am fascinated by how Atran lived and engaged with these men. I am not finding as much time this week to read the book as I would like but think I will have time this weekend to finish it. How is your reading going?

 

[missy]

Some of my thoughts so far.

I was surprised to learn that in order to effectively deal with terrorism we must empathize with the terrorists. That they are more like us than they are not like us. I admit I thought they were brainwashed psychopaths who had no or little regard for human life but I was wrong about that. They are often highly moral individuals (according to their own moral values) who act for and because of their friends and family. They are not just acting for a cause but for their loved ones. Social connections and community are critical for them and they are willing to die for those connections.

What I am right about so far (and something we all know) is that there are no easy answers and permanent peace is unlikely and reading about Atran's research in the field confirms that. However one powerful piece of the puzzle is empathy. Atran strongly believes empathy is one of the most powerful antidotes for terrorism. I am getting that and in hindsight it makes sense to me in a way that wouldn't have made sense to me before I started reading this book. They are human beings and empathy can go a long way in general when dealing with people of all backgrounds so yes it makes sense to me now.

The question is can his research can be put into action and help the world deal with terrorism and somehow bring peace.

OK off to work. Karen thanks again for recommending this book to us.

 

[ksinger]

Some of my thoughts so far.

I was surprised to learn that in order to effectively deal with terrorism we must empathize with the terrorists. That they are more like us than they are not like us. I admit I thought they were brainwashed psychopaths who had no or little regard for human life but I was wrong about that. They are often highly moral individuals (according to their own moral values) who act for and because of their friends and family. They are not just acting for a cause but for their loved ones. Social connections and community are critical for them and they are willing to die for those connections.

What I am right about so far (and something we all know) is that there are no easy answers and permanent peace is unlikely and reading about Atran's research in the field confirms that. However one powerful piece of the puzzle is empathy. Atran strongly believes empathy is one of the most powerful antidotes for terrorism. I am getting that and in hindsight it makes sense to me in a way that wouldn't have made sense to me before I started reading this book. They are human beings and empathy can go a long way in general when dealing with people of all backgrounds so yes it makes sense to me now.

The question is can his research can be put into action and help the world deal with terrorism and somehow bring peace.

OK off to work. Karen thanks again for recommending this book to us.

Well, I'm doing what I do, only more of it: I tend to jump around in books like this, which is far easier in real books. Easier in keeping and re-finding your place when you want to go back, etc. It's very much more disjointed with an e-reader, or I find it so. Of course, I mostly don't have the concentration and focus I once did, and am often like a kitten with a ball of string, so it might be me.

Right now I'm in a bit of a rush, so will get back to make a comment that actually is worth reading.

I'm glad you're reading it and getting something of worth out of it. I truly believe the very first step, without which we will never even have a ghost of a chance of reducing the violence, is understanding. As you have discovered, Atran's willingness to listen without (overt) judgement, his ability to go into those environments over and over and not be killed and to get people to speak honestly, is amazing and quite enlightening. It speaks to a level of sincerity and empathy which must radiate quite strongly from him as a person, I'm thinking. However, as you surmise and he himself admits, getting other people to actually listen to what he has seen and learned, is the real trick. People do so love clear-cut certainties and making complex situations into binaries. I think that way of thinking is almost an addiction. And it's emotionally and intellectually lazy.

 

[missy]

Karen, I finished the book ahead of time. It was very informative and I learned a lot. Like you I prefer a "real" book because it is hard to go back and forth and reread passages etc so I am thinking I might order a hard copy at some point as there is a lot to take in and process so it deserves to be read again. My dh is planning on reading it too when he has some time.

Forgive me for including a few more snippets (or sound bites as you call them) I just want to try enticing others to read this important book. It is impossible to summarize it with a few quotes of course but just hoping it will whet the appetite.

Understanding sacred values abroad requires some empathy, even with enemies, with the “who we are” identity aspect that is often hard for members of opposing cultures to understand.

Terrorists generally do not commit terrorism because they are extraordinarily vengeful or uncaring, poor or uneducated, humiliated or lacking in self-esteem, schooled as children in radical religion or brainwashed, criminally minded or suicidal, or sex-starved for virgins in heaven. Terrorists, for the most part, are not nihilists but extreme moralists— altruists fastened to a hope gone haywire.

...people don’t simply kill and die for a cause. They kill and die for each other.



Force and deception may be fine for war, but that is all you’ll get. Dare we dream of something more to do with our enemies? For wars are truly won when enemies become friends. Then let’s go out of the house, with whatever protection we need, and talk to the stranger before we shoot, or at least before we shoot again. On some things, we’ll find, we won’t change minds, and on some of these things we shouldn’t. But who knows what a world could be made if we listen and learn at the camps of fallen angels? Then we must act to make it.

Atran, Scott (2010-10-19). Talking to the Enemy: Faith, Brotherhood, and the (Un)Making of Terrorists (Kindle Locations 7848-7851).

 

[momhappy]

And now there has been a mass shooting in Germany, where gun control is some of the most stringent in Europe. Several confirmed dead and last I heard, the shooter(s) were still on the run.

 

[kenny]

And now there has been a mass shooting in Germany, where gun control is some of the most stringent in Europe. Several confirmed dead and last I heard, the shooter(s) were still on the run.

Just imagine how many more mass shootings there would have been in Germany if they did not have strict gun control.

Thank goodness so many innocent lives were saved.

 

[momhappy]

^I suppose that's one way to look at it, but not the way I see things.
The last couple of attacks have not even involved firearms.