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Large truck kills dozens in France

kenny

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UGH!
Reports now state at least 77 were killed in Nice, France as a truck plows through a large crowd.
Dozens more injured! :knockout:

Police shot and killed the driver.
Apparently it was terrorism.
"The driver was "neutralised", and guns and grenades were found inside the lorry."
(What America calls a truck is, in Britain, called a lorry.)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36800730
 

kenny

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Why do they do this?
 

redwood66

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Because they are evil. Not crazy. Evil.

This makes me so very sad.
 

kenny

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I don't believe in 'evil'.
IMO, that term is a cop out, as is the term crazy.
"Evil" and "crazy" are comforting brain-turning-off ideas.

As misinformed as they may be, everyone has reasons for what they do.
I'm curious.
What are their reasons?
What do they want?

Not that I'd ever entertain giving them what they want, or call their actions anything but wrong and criminal ... but, still ...
I'm curious.
What are their reasons?
What do they want?
 

redwood66

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kenny|1468550144|4055626 said:
I don't believe in 'evil'.
IMO, that term is a cop out, as is the term crazy.
"Evil" and "crazy" are comforting brain-turning-off ideas.

As misinformed as they may be, everyone has reasons for what they do.
I'm curious.
What are their reasons?
What do they want?

Not that I'd ever entertain giving them what they want, or call their actions anything but wrong and criminal ... but, still ...
I'm curious.
What are their reasons?
What do they want?
I don't care what they want. Not curious in the least bit. With regard to terrorists - my give a damn is busted.

Although it appears they want to cause fear and devastation everywhere.


http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/11/middleeast/isis-syria-iraq-caliphate/
 

kenny

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redwood66|1468550556|4055630 said:
... it appears they want to cause fear and devastation everywhere.
Why?
 

redwood66

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kenny|1468551230|4055633 said:
redwood66|1468550556|4055630 said:
... it appears they want to cause fear and devastation everywhere.
Why?
Excerpt from the link:

ISIS makes no secret of its ultimate ambition: A global caliphate secured through a global war. To that end it speaks of "remaining and expanding" its existing hold over much of Iraq and Syria. It aims to replace existing, man-made borders, to overcome what it sees as the Shiite "crescent" that has emerged across the Middle East, to take its war -- Islam's war -- to Europe and America, and ultimately to lead Muslims toward an apocalyptic battle against the "disbelievers."
Its propaganda relies on a very distinct interpretation of the Quran and other religious texts to promote these goals -- and most importantly to show its supporters that they are achievable.
 

kenny

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redwood66|1468551497|4055634 said:
kenny|1468551230|4055633 said:
redwood66|1468550556|4055630 said:
... it appears they want to cause fear and devastation everywhere.
Why?
Excerpt from the link:

ISIS makes no secret of its ultimate ambition: A global caliphate secured through a global war. To that end it speaks of "remaining and expanding" its existing hold over much of Iraq and Syria. It aims to replace existing, man-made borders, to overcome what it sees as the Shiite "crescent" that has emerged across the Middle East, to take its war -- Islam's war -- to Europe and America, and ultimately to lead Muslims toward an apocalyptic battle against the "disbelievers."
Its propaganda relies on a very distinct interpretation of the Quran and other religious texts to promote these goals -- and most importantly to show its supporters that they are achievable.
Well, that's not very nice.
Not too bright either, since it only turns people AWAY from their religion.
 

iLander

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IF it was Islamic terrorists, their God told them to, Kenny. Or at least their priests, ministers - whatever you want to call them - did. They are doing it for religion. Their "imaginary being".

There. Now do you get it? Can you combine a condescending religion lecture with a PC "maybe they have a good reason" terrorist debate, Kenny? I'm pretty pissed tonight . . .

And I'm sick of it. I'm sick of "not asking the Muslims to condemn it". Even when "Christians" were shooting at abortion clinics in the early '90's, the real Christians rang out from sooooo many pulpits to say they were against it. Why are the Muslims so mute? Where is their "Not in my name" campaign?

I'm sick of the US government going into Arab countries and screwing around with their governments, killing people, and then being surprised when terrorists get pissed off. How can you possibly be surprised?

I'm sick of many Arab cultures where women are denigrated, treated like chattal, abused, stoned, killed, mutilated and murdered. I'm tired of them bringing their violence to my doorstep.

Remember a few months back when I asked why ISIS still had Twitter accounts? And you guys were saying things like "Well, I'm sure the FBI is using it to track them"? Just as I thought, they did not have a handle on it. Turns out they can't even hack an iPhone. :rolleyes: We are ill-equipped to fight these people. Our government agents are NOTHING like what you see on TV. They don't even have the brains to reach out the private sector to ask for help. The hacker group Anonymous started alerting Twitter so the accounts could be deleted. That finally cut that nonsense down, so that brainless teens could stop going there. Morons.

I'm sick of the NRA defending "gun rights" to the point where they are willing to sell guns to terrorists, before they will budge one speck on background checks, no-fly lists, or cross-referencing between Federal and state agencies. I've got news for these "constitutional advocates"; the constitution says the guns are for the "well-organized militia". That does not mean your uncle Bubba and his Uzi collection.

So yeah, I'm sick of it. It's time to act like grownups, put on our big girl pants, bottom out the price of oil again (like we did a few months ago) and tell the Arabs to clean out the terrorist rats out of their houses, once and for all.

Rant over. :cry:
 

kenny

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iLander|1468552830|4055641 said:
Can you combine a condescending religion lecture with a PC "maybe they have a good reason" terrorist debate, Kenny?
Huh?
What?
Who said anything about a 'good reason'? :nono:

Way to project! :knockout:

As I watched the WTC towers fall during 9-11 on live TV, I turned to my friend and asked her, "Why do they hate us so much?"

A desire for understanding is quite different from approval.

Condescending Lecture:
These terrorists need to learn and accept that ... People Vary.
They don't want us to vary.
 

iLander

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kenny|1468553203|4055643 said:
iLander|1468552830|4055641 said:
Can you combine a condescending religion lecture with a PC "maybe they have a good reason" terrorist debate, Kenny?
Huh?
What?
Who said anything about a 'good reason'? :nono:

Way to project! :knockout:

As I watched the WTC towers fall during 9-11 on live TV, I turned to my friend and asked her, "Why do they hate us so much?"

A desire for understanding is quite different from approval.

They need to learn and accept that ... People Vary.
They don't want us to vary.
And the answer hasn't changed any since then. It's been 15 years and they're all still nuts.
 

redwood66

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I am sick of Obama not doing enough to engage and help (and require the rest of the world to help) eradicate this EVIL.

Definition of evil: profoundly immoral and malevolent
 

redwood66

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LLJsmom|1468556876|4055667 said:
redwood66|1468550556|4055630 said:
I don't care what they want. Not curious in the least bit. With regard to terrorists - my give a damn is busted.

Although it appears they want to cause fear and devastation everywhere.


http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/11/middleeast/isis-syria-iraq-caliphate/
This is a great quote redwood66. I'm gonna steal it!
:appl: I wish I could claim credit but its Jo Dee Messina.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o40fwZgSFPI
 

Dancing Fire

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redwood66|1468554622|4055655 said:
I am sick of Obama not doing enough to engage and help (and require the rest of the world to help) eradicate this EVIL.

Definition of evil: profoundly immoral and malevolent
Tomorrow Mr. Obama will call for a ban on big trucks.
 

Polished

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I remember here in Australia there was a case involving someone who had been badly neglected as a kid. His response when he was older was to douse a young aboriginal boy at a school with petrol and set him on fire, badly burning him. This person had turned around and done something to someone else worse than was ever done to him. The only explanation I could come up with was a need to demonstrate and highlight to everyone and whoever, that see, my problems are this big, my problems are real. I can't help but take these sorts of concepts through to all this type of, destructive to others, behaviour whether they are done in the name of religion, a particular organization, by individuals or whatever. There's a, see our organisation, cause or problem matters THIS much, that we're prepared to take these drastic, destructive actions to highlight to you and ourselves how important our thing is. It offers explanation for these acts while the whole position is completely irrational.
 

ksinger

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kenny|1468550144|4055626 said:
I don't believe in 'evil'.
IMO, that term is a cop out, as is the term crazy.
"Evil" and "crazy" are comforting brain-turning-off ideas.

As misinformed as they may be, everyone has reasons for what they do.
I'm curious.
What are their reasons?
What do they want?

Not that I'd ever entertain giving them what they want, or call their actions anything but wrong and criminal ... but, still ...
I'm curious.
What are their reasons?
What do they want?
If you're genuinely interested in what they want and what motivates them (or at least some of them - since this book was written pre-ISIS), then this is a very good and enlightening book. (And I'm not just posting a link that I think sounds good, I have actually read this book myself.)

https://www.amazon.com/Talking-Enemy-Religion-Brotherhood-Terrorists/dp/0061344915

Atran (In Gods We Trust) examines the motivations of terrorists in this sprawling and timely study. Drawing upon years of travel among Muslim communities from Indonesia to Morocco, extensive interviews with would-be martyrs and holy warriors, and detailed surveys, the author concludes that young jihadists aren't merely motivated by political or religious fervor--they are powerfully bound to each other, they were campmates, school buddies, soccer pals, and the like, who become die-hard bands of brothers. Besides the importance of group dynamics in spawning terrorists, the author highlights the role of sacred values --core cultural values--that often trump other values, particularly economic ones. Within this context, Atran argues that the best measures against today's terrorist threat--which is more opportunistic, more scattered and disjointed, than it was before 9/11--are soft-power initiatives to provide alternative heroes and hopes within Muslim communities and to reframe sacred values. Atran's intellectual reach is prodigious; his analysis of the underpinnings of terrorism is instructive, if often unconventional; and his provocative prescriptions merit debate and consideration.

“The stories Atran brings back from talking to jihadists and their supporters are gripping, and the result of his experiments that probe their sacred values are compelling. The insights he gains tell us more than we knew before about what it means to be human.” (Robert Axelrod, Walgreen Professor for the Study of Human Understanding at the University of Michigan, author of The Evolution of Cooperation, and recipient of the National Academy of Sciences Award for Behavioral Research Relevant to the Prevention of Nu)

“Atran is one of the world’s most important thinkers on the local and global dynamics of violent Islamist extremism. His research on what motivates young men to fall prey to violent ideologies is required reading for those trying to understand the problems of terrorism in the 21st century.” (Juan Zarate, Center for Strategic and International Studies, Deputy Assistant to the President and Deputy National Security Advisor for Combating Terrorism 2005 - 2009)

“[Atran’s] rigorous research not only debunks the claims of pundits who sit lightly to academic discipline but also challenges unscientific attacks on religion by senior scientists. The political implications of his well-grounded analysis are profound but conveyed in an accessible style which left me excited and hopeful.” (John, Lord Alderdice, Chairman of the Liberal Democrat Party in the House of Lords, former Speaker of the Northern Ireland Assembly and President of Liberal International)

“A riveting account of the motivational basis of terrorism and field material of rare quality. Dismantling the myths that guide the so called war on terror, he provides the tools to address a global problem rationally and effectively.” (Carlo Strenger, Graduate Chair of Clinical Psychology, Tel Aviv University, and columnist for Ha'aretz)

“Scott Atran is one of the very few persons who understand religion and have figured out that religion is not about belief and cannot be naively replaced without severe side effects.” (Nassim Nicholas Taleb, Distinguished Professor, New York University Polytechnic Institute, author of The New York Times bestseller The Black Swan)
 

missy

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kenny|1468553203|4055643 said:
iLander|1468552830|4055641 said:
Can you combine a condescending religion lecture with a PC "maybe they have a good reason" terrorist debate, Kenny?
Huh?
What?
Who said anything about a 'good reason'? :nono:

Way to project! :knockout:

As I watched the WTC towers fall during 9-11 on live TV, I turned to my friend and asked her, "Why do they hate us so much?"

A desire for understanding is quite different from approval.

Condescending Lecture:
These terrorists need to learn and accept that ... People Vary.
They don't want us to vary.


They will NEVER accept that Kenny. Never. You cannot reason with these people. And yes they are evil IMO and crazy and irrational. And that is a deadly combination. There will always be terrorists for as long as the world survives.
 

ksinger

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missy|1468579377|4055689 said:
kenny|1468553203|4055643 said:
iLander|1468552830|4055641 said:
Can you combine a condescending religion lecture with a PC "maybe they have a good reason" terrorist debate, Kenny?
Huh?
What?
Who said anything about a 'good reason'? :nono:

Way to project! :knockout:

As I watched the WTC towers fall during 9-11 on live TV, I turned to my friend and asked her, "Why do they hate us so much?"

A desire for understanding is quite different from approval.

Condescending Lecture:
These terrorists need to learn and accept that ... People Vary.
They don't want us to vary.


They will NEVER accept that Kenny. Never. You cannot reason with these people. And yes they are evil IMO and crazy and irrational. And that is a deadly combination. There will always be terrorists for as long as the world survives.
Missy, I get that you're frustrated, but where does an analysis like that leave us?

It's much easier and requires a lot less effort to write these guys off as crazy or irrational or satan-like in evil, but that's not really much in the way of actual understanding. These guys weren't born evil, any more than children anywhere are born evil. They were radicalized at some point in their lives. Refusal to attempt understanding of that process is going to cut us off from any way of derailing that radicalization process, and doom us to eternal befuddlement and cries of "Why do they hate us so much?" or worse and my personal eyeroll inducer, "They hate us 'cause we're free."
 

missy

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That leaves us in reality unfortunately.
In a permanent standoff with Islamic terrorists. Full stop. Their unrelentingly hate is embedded in their culture. Change the culture and that changes the terrorists and that takes centuries. Darn if I know how to do that.

I agree they are not born evil but still they become evil. How to stop this? I don't know.

The terrorists view this war as taking many generations so they are in no rush. They will only be content when everyone in the world has converted. When the non believers have been purged i.e. nice way of saying killed.

I always remain hopeful of course and open to any ideas that will encourage change for the better. I just have no clue whatsoever how to bring that change about.

Just posting in car on go sharing my jumbled thoughts while in traffic.

Karen I'm truly interested in your thoughts on how to change their radicalization.
What is the alternative to their radicalization? What are the tools to help prevent this?
How do we offer them a more attractive purpose in life?


Sent from my iPhone
 

AGBF

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I am just at the computer for the first time today. I decided to check "The New York Times" "just in case" there was any news other than that Ruth Bader Ginsburg was sorry that she had spoken out against Donald Trump or that Donald Trump would probably pick Mike Pence as his running mate (last night's or the middle of the night news). And it is that 84 (it is now up to 84) people were just killed in Nice. I am glad I checked the news before Pricescope. I have been to Nice. My husband is from Genoa, Italy on "the Italian Riviera"and one year on a visit to his relatives in Italy when our daughter was very young we drove up the coast through Monaco into France. We stayed in St. Tropez, but saw Nice as well. As President Hollande said, the terrorists this time chose July 14, Bastille Day, France's Independence day, for the attack.

AGBF
 

AGBF

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I just had time to read this thread more carefully. As is often the case, my thinking about this incident is more like ksinger's thinking than that of other posters. (I have not read the material she suggests, however.) I think that there is, indeed, a reason for the attacks by ISIS (a reason other than "craziness" or "evil", that is). I also think that it behooves us to understand what motivates so many people to join such a movement, especially when they are willing to do so with the intent to commit suicide.

As I mentioned above and as the French people are keenly aware, the attack took place on their most important national holiday: Bastille Day, the day which commemorates the French Revolution of which they are so proud. That it took place on that day, an act of political symbolism, shows that it was meant to be a political act. Whether or not some of us individual Americans "give a damn", we had better believe that the French and other countries on the front lines in Europe will be trying to figure out what is motivating ISIS and who is in it. I believe that president Obama is as well. Attacks by the US on ISIS in the Middle East have been successful. And it was President Obama who brought down Osama bin Laden. That took study, not saying, "I don't give a damn".

AGBF
 

redwood66

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That is a wonderful sentiment but I still don't give a damn all day long. You fix it Deb. And how long are libs gonna ride that "he killed UBL" horse? He didn't do it. It took many thousands of hours of work by very dedicated military and CIA/NSA and other acronyms we probably don't know.

Yes we have to be involved helping Europe find out. But that is already being done so it makes no difference whether I care about their reason. I don't need to care. I need to make sure my government is doing enough to stop it.
 

missy

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Deb, yes, they have a reason. Of course they have a reason because everyone has a reason. Does this mean they are not evil because they have a reason? Is the reason a sane one, a rational one and either way the question remains how do we change their desire to continue wreaking death and destruction on innocent people?

Hitler had a reason too. I stand by my thought Hitler was an evil person regardless of those reasons. And I think most of us agree that Hitler's desire to exterminate all those people were not sane reasons based in rational thinking.


Sent from my iPhone
 

liaerfbv

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redwood66|1468589064|4055710 said:
That is a wonderful sentiment but I still don't give a damn all day long. You fix it Deb. And how long are libs gonna ride that "he killed UBL" horse? He didn't do it. It took many thousands of hours of work by very dedicated military and CIA/NSA and other acronyms we probably don't know.

Yes we have to be involved helping Europe find out. But that is already being done so it makes no difference whether I care about their reason. I don't need to care. I need to make sure my government is doing enough to stop it.

Redwood, I'm going to be frank -- the way you talk about Democrats really makes you lose a lot of credibility as a person to have intelligent debate with.

I'm also curious in how Obama is supposed to take any action against terrorism with a complete obstructionist Congress who then scream executive overreach when he tries to find workable solutions to do ANYTHING.
 

Bayek

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kenny|1468548030|4055615 said:
Why do they do this?
For Allah.. because they hate themselve(s).. because they are marginalized in their country, because they are insane. That's my thoughts on it.
 

Bayek

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Ilander, thank you for crystallizing my thoughts.
 

ksinger

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missy|1468585158|4055694 said:
Karen I'm truly interested in your thoughts on how to change their radicalization.
What is the alternative to their radicalization? What are the tools to help prevent this?
How do we offer them a more attractive purpose in life?


Sent from my iPhone
Missy, with all due respect, I have neither the time nor inclination, to write as much on public fora, as you or others do. I used to do a bit of that back in 2008, and somewhat in 2012, but no more. I can't write tomes anymore, and I won't do simplistic bumper stickers.

Besides, MY thoughts on how to reduce the radicalization of Muslims - or for that matter, Christians, are not really all that interesting, or meaningful. I'm an average person with only slightly more than basic understanding of the issue. I do what I usually do in these matters, and inform myself by reading the thoughts of people who have actually devoted many years of their lives on gathering information on the issue at hand (in this case, what motivates would-be jihadis), use that information to do informed analyses of the issues, and then suggest strategies for solving the problems.

Scott Atran, the author of the book linked above, is much better qualified than I to hold forth on the issue. If you're truly interested on understanding, doesn't it make sense to go to someone who has devoted more time to the issue than I have? I would again suggest you read his book.

A quickie on who he is and his cred: (from Wikipedia)
"Scott Atran (born February 6, 1952) is an American and French anthropologist who is a Director of Research in Anthropology at the Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique in Paris, Senior Research Fellow at Oxford University in England, Presidential Scholar at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York, and also holds offices at the University of Michigan. He has studied and written about terrorism, violence and religion, and has done fieldwork with terrorists and Islamic fundamentalists, as well as political leaders.

Field research on terrorism
His work on the ideology and social evolution of transnational terrorism, which has included fieldwork with mujahedin and supporters in Europe, the Middle East, Central and Southeast Asia, and North Africa, has challenged common assumptions. Steven Pinker summarizes some of Atran's findings thus: "Far from being ignorant, impoverished, nihilistic, or mentally ill, suicide terrorists tend to be educated, middle class, morally engaged, and free of obvious psychopathology. Atran concluded that many of the motives may be found in nepotistic altruism... [Atran shows that] Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups [hold] out a carrot rather than a stick to the terrorist's family in the form of generous monthly stipends, lump-sum payments, and massive prestige in the community.... Atran has [also] found that suicide terrorists can be recruited without these direct incentives. Probably the most effective call to martyrdom is the opportunity to join a happy band of brothers. Terrorist cells often begin as gangs of underemployed single young men who come together in cafes, dorms, soccer clubs, barbershops, or Internet chat rooms and suddenly find meaning in their lives by a commitment to the new platoon.... Commitment to the group is intensified by religion, not just the literal promise of paradise but the feeling of spiritual awe that comes from submerging oneself in a crusade, a calling, a vision quest, or a jihad. [Atran writes that religion] may also turn a commitment to a cause into a sacred value - a good that may not be traded off against something else, including life itself. The commitment can be further stoked by the thirst for revenge, which in the case of militant Islamism takes the form of vengeance for the harm and humiliation suffered by any Muslim anywhere on the planet at any time in history, or for symbolic affronts such as the presence of infidel soldiers on sacred Muslim soil."[37]

Atran is quoted as summarizing his work thus: "When you look at young people like the ones who grew up to blow up trains in Madrid in 2004, carried out the slaughter on the London underground in 2005, hoped to blast airliners out of the sky en route to the United States in 2006 and 2009, and journeyed far to die killing infidels in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen or Somalia; when you look at whom they idolize, how they organize, what bonds them and what drives them; then you see that what inspires the most lethal terrorists in the world today is not so much the Koran or religious teachings as a thrilling cause and call to action that promises glory and esteem in the eyes of friends, and through friends, eternal respect and remembrance in the wider world that they will never live to enjoy.... Jihad is an egalitarian, equal-opportunity employer: ...fraternal, fast-breaking, thrilling, glorious, and cool."[38]

Regarding Atran's analysis of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant as a revolutionary movement of "world-historic proportions,"[39][40]The New York Times writes: "This remarkable, persuasive and frightening essay by a top anthropologist in Paris combines his research among disaffected youth with insights from such disparate figures as Hitler, Burke, Darwin and Hobbes, as well as close observation of the Islamic State’s advance into a 'globe-spanning jihadi archipelago'. He argues that we dismiss ISIS at our peril, and that in fact, we do much to promote its growth. Some of his historical conclusions will be controversial, but this is French intellectualism at its most profound — and most useful. Here’s a telling anecdote: When Charlie Chaplin and the French filmmaker René Clair watched 'Triumph of the Will' (1935), Leni Riefenstahl’s visual paean to National Socialism, 'Chaplin laughed but Clair was terror-stricken, fearing that, if it were shown more widely, all might be lost in the West'."[41]

The Chronicle of Higher Education accompanied Atran to frontlines in the battle against ISIS in Iraq, where he and his research team were assessing "will to fight" among the combatants: "Atran fleshes out what he calls the 'Devoted Actor Framework' [as opposed to standard 'rational actor' frameworks], which pulls sacred values [which are immune to material trade offs] and identity fusion [complete merging of individual identity with group identity] into a single theory and offers advice for beating ISIS: 'The science suggests that sacred values are best opposed with other sacred values that inspire devotion, or by sundering the fused social networks that embed those values.' Left unspoken: How do you offer an equally inspiring alternative? By what method can those social networks be sundered? Atran doesn’t pretend to know the answer, but he does think that current attempts at so-called "countermessaging" are destined to fail because those messages are 'disembodied from the social networks in which ideas are embedded and given life.' Scholarly squabbles aside, there is near-universal admiration, bordering on awe, for how Atran is able to collect data in the midst of a violent conflict."[42]"
 

redwood66

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liaerfbv|1468593849|4055725 said:
redwood66|1468589064|4055710 said:
That is a wonderful sentiment but I still don't give a damn all day long. You fix it Deb. And how long are libs gonna ride that "he killed UBL" horse? He didn't do it. It took many thousands of hours of work by very dedicated military and CIA/NSA and other acronyms we probably don't know.

Yes we have to be involved helping Europe find out. But that is already being done so it makes no difference whether I care about their reason. I don't need to care. I need to make sure my government is doing enough to stop it.

Redwood, I'm going to be frank -- the way you talk about Democrats really makes you lose a lot of credibility as a person to have intelligent debate with.

I'm also curious in how Obama is supposed to take any action against terrorism with a complete obstructionist Congress who then scream executive overreach when he tries to find workable solutions to do ANYTHING.
Really after the way the Republicans are talked about? Seriously? People vary as kenny says. But I should be concerned about MY credibility in your eyes. Much of America feels the way I do but they are not on PS for sure.
 
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