Large truck kills dozens in France

[chrono]

I agree with most, if not all, of iLander's post. I don't like it that they are forcing their religious doctrine on everyone, much less an extreme version of it. I am also surprised to not read of moderate Muslims not speaking out against this extreme version of their religion.

 

[kenny]

ksinger, bless you for offering the type of thoughtful response I was hoping for.

One review of your book's link included the two main shallow knee-jerk reactions to terrorism we read, " ... The right 'knows' it needs to be eradicated by use of power; the left 'knows' that most terrorism, particularly Islamic terror, is only a reaction to Western imperialism ... "


I confess to holding the later view, 'The have-nots resenting the haves'.

I'm a horrible reader (obviously ) but this book really interests me.
Problem is, if I get better informed I'll become even more frustrated and cynical by the bumper-sticker level of stupidity in society and the politicians it excretes.

 

[missy]

Karen I'm truly interested in your thoughts on how to change their radicalization.
What is the alternative to their radicalization? What are the tools to help prevent this?
How do we offer them a more attractive purpose in life?


Sent from my iPhone

Missy, with all due respect, I have neither the time nor inclination, to write as much on public fora, as you or others do. I used to do a bit of that back in 2008, and somewhat in 2012, but no more. I can't write tomes anymore, and I won't do simplistic bumper stickers.

Besides, MY thoughts on how to reduce the radicalization of Muslims - or for that matter, Christians, are not really all that interesting, or meaningful. I'm an average person with only slightly more than basic understanding of the issue. I do what I usually do in these matters, and inform myself by reading the thoughts of people who have actually devoted many years of their lives on gathering information on the issue at hand (in this case, what motivates would-be jihadis), use that information to do informed analyses of the issues, and then suggest strategies for solving the problems.

Scott Atran, the author of the book linked above, is much better qualified than I to hold forth on the issue. If you're truly interested on understanding, doesn't it make sense to go to someone who has devoted more time to the issue than I have? I would again suggest you read his book.

A quickie on who he is and his cred: (from Wikipedia)
"Scott Atran (born February 6, 1952) is an American and French anthropologist who is a Director of Research in Anthropology at the Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique in Paris, Senior Research Fellow at Oxford University in England, Presidential Scholar at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York, and also holds offices at the University of Michigan. He has studied and written about terrorism, violence and religion, and has done fieldwork with terrorists and Islamic fundamentalists, as well as political leaders.

Field research on terrorism
His work on the ideology and social evolution of transnational terrorism, which has included fieldwork with mujahedin and supporters in Europe, the Middle East, Central and Southeast Asia, and North Africa, has challenged common assumptions. Steven Pinker summarizes some of Atran's findings thus: "Far from being ignorant, impoverished, nihilistic, or mentally ill, suicide terrorists tend to be educated, middle class, morally engaged, and free of obvious psychopathology. Atran concluded that many of the motives may be found in nepotistic altruism... [Atran shows that] Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups [hold] out a carrot rather than a stick to the terrorist's family in the form of generous monthly stipends, lump-sum payments, and massive prestige in the community.... Atran has [also] found that suicide terrorists can be recruited without these direct incentives. Probably the most effective call to martyrdom is the opportunity to join a happy band of brothers. Terrorist cells often begin as gangs of underemployed single young men who come together in cafes, dorms, soccer clubs, barbershops, or Internet chat rooms and suddenly find meaning in their lives by a commitment to the new platoon.... Commitment to the group is intensified by religion, not just the literal promise of paradise but the feeling of spiritual awe that comes from submerging oneself in a crusade, a calling, a vision quest, or a jihad. [Atran writes that religion] may also turn a commitment to a cause into a sacred value - a good that may not be traded off against something else, including life itself. The commitment can be further stoked by the thirst for revenge, which in the case of militant Islamism takes the form of vengeance for the harm and humiliation suffered by any Muslim anywhere on the planet at any time in history, or for symbolic affronts such as the presence of infidel soldiers on sacred Muslim soil."[37]

Atran is quoted as summarizing his work thus: "When you look at young people like the ones who grew up to blow up trains in Madrid in 2004, carried out the slaughter on the London underground in 2005, hoped to blast airliners out of the sky en route to the United States in 2006 and 2009, and journeyed far to die killing infidels in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen or Somalia; when you look at whom they idolize, how they organize, what bonds them and what drives them; then you see that what inspires the most lethal terrorists in the world today is not so much the Koran or religious teachings as a thrilling cause and call to action that promises glory and esteem in the eyes of friends, and through friends, eternal respect and remembrance in the wider world that they will never live to enjoy.... Jihad is an egalitarian, equal-opportunity employer: ...fraternal, fast-breaking, thrilling, glorious, and cool."[38]

Regarding Atran's analysis of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant as a revolutionary movement of "world-historic proportions,"[39][40]The New York Times writes: "This remarkable, persuasive and frightening essay by a top anthropologist in Paris combines his research among disaffected youth with insights from such disparate figures as Hitler, Burke, Darwin and Hobbes, as well as close observation of the Islamic State’s advance into a 'globe-spanning jihadi archipelago'. He argues that we dismiss ISIS at our peril, and that in fact, we do much to promote its growth. Some of his historical conclusions will be controversial, but this is French intellectualism at its most profound — and most useful. Here’s a telling anecdote: When Charlie Chaplin and the French filmmaker René Clair watched 'Triumph of the Will' (1935), Leni Riefenstahl’s visual paean to National Socialism, 'Chaplin laughed but Clair was terror-stricken, fearing that, if it were shown more widely, all might be lost in the West'."[41]

The Chronicle of Higher Education accompanied Atran to frontlines in the battle against ISIS in Iraq, where he and his research team were assessing "will to fight" among the combatants: "Atran fleshes out what he calls the 'Devoted Actor Framework' [as opposed to standard 'rational actor' frameworks], which pulls sacred values [which are immune to material trade offs] and identity fusion [complete merging of individual identity with group identity] into a single theory and offers advice for beating ISIS: 'The science suggests that sacred values are best opposed with other sacred values that inspire devotion, or by sundering the fused social networks that embed those values.' Left unspoken: How do you offer an equally inspiring alternative? By what method can those social networks be sundered? Atran doesn’t pretend to know the answer, but he does think that current attempts at so-called "countermessaging" are destined to fail because those messages are 'disembodied from the social networks in which ideas are embedded and given life.' Scholarly squabbles aside, there is near-universal admiration, bordering on awe, for how Atran is able to collect data in the midst of a violent conflict."[42]"

Karen, I appreciate that and don't expect you to translate and spit it out for us. I will read Atran's book because you recommended it. I am surmising from reading what you kindly shared here that there are no answers and just more questions but one has to start somewhere. I acknowledge that the only other option is to give up which I am definitely not suggesting. It is a frustrating long term problem for which there are no answers but I am looking forward to reading this book. It is always smart to read ideas and research from people who are more well versed in the topics we wish to learn more about. I am on the same page here with you with regards to that and here's hoping that greater minds than ours can figure a way out of this mess and get us all to a more peaceful tolerant world.

 

[missy]

I agree with most, if not all, of iLander's post. I don't like it that they are forcing their religious doctrine on everyone, much less an extreme version of it. I am also surprised to not read of moderate Muslims not speaking out against this extreme version of their religion.

It is interesting because I have friends who are Muslim who do speak out against this extremism but it does seem that in the public eye the general Muslim population does not. But yes I have many friends who are Muslim who do speak out against this.

 

[redwood66]

No wonder conservatives don't post here. The imperious view of many and denigrating of anyone that does not share that view to the point of calling someone stupid and not intelligent to debate with. Keep stroking each other with your views and adoration of others with the same POV. Its a jewelry forum for pete's sake and not the place for someone to learn about the world. Many other places for that. Today is the first day of my second retirement and I'll not have it ruined by a few pinheads on PS.

 

[missy]

No wonder conservatives don't post here. The imperious view of many and denigrating of anyone that does not share that view to the point of calling someone stupid and not intelligent to debate with. Keep stroking each other with your views and adoration of others with the same POV. Its a jewelry forum for pete's sake and not the place for someone to learn about the world. Many other places for that. Today is the first day of my retirement and I'll not have it ruined by a few pinheads on PS.

Redwood, I just want to say I am not against you and I agree that most of us can do with learning tolerance towards each other and our different points of view. Don't let anybody here make you feel stupid for any reason. It is a tool some use to end a debate or sharing of ideas and I don't understand why they do that. If one wants their views respected please be respectful of differing views. There is a way to disagree and share dissenting viewpoints that is constructive and a way that is not constructive. I hope you will stay and continue sharing your thoughts here.

Congratulations on your retirement.

 

[redwood66]

No wonder conservatives don't post here. The imperious view of many and denigrating of anyone that does not share that view to the point of calling someone stupid and not intelligent to debate with. Keep stroking each other with your views and adoration of others with the same POV. Its a jewelry forum for pete's sake and not the place for someone to learn about the world. Many other places for that. Today is the first day of my retirement and I'll not have it ruined by a few pinheads on PS.

Redwood, I just want to say I am not against you and I agree that most of us can do with learning tolerance towards each other and our different points of view. Don't let anybody here make you feel stupid for any reason. It is a tool some use to end a debate or sharing of ideas and I don't understand why they do that. If one wants their views respected please be respectful of differing views. There is a way to disagree and share dissenting viewpoints that is constructive and a way that is not constructive. I hope you will stay and continue sharing your thoughts here.

Congratulations on your retirement.

Thank you Missy and I appreciate it. Some PSers are nice and even though we have differing views we try not to call each other names. I am frustrated with the government at this point.

 

[liaerfbv]

No wonder conservatives don't post here. The imperious view of many and denigrating of anyone that does not share that view to the point of calling someone stupid and not intelligent to debate with. Keep stroking each other with your views and adoration of others with the same POV. Its a jewelry forum for pete's sake and not the place for someone to learn about the world. Many other places for that. Today is the first day of my retirement and I'll not have it ruined by a few pinheads on PS.

Redwood, I just want to say I am not against you and I agree that most of us can do with learning tolerance towards each other and our different points of view. Don't let anybody here make you feel stupid for any reason. It is a tool some use to end a debate or sharing of ideas and I don't understand why they do that. If one wants their views respected please be respectful of differing views. There is a way to disagree and share dissenting viewpoints that is constructive and a way that is not constructive. I hope you will stay and continue sharing your thoughts here.

Congratulations on your retirement.

There's absolutely a way to share views and dissenting viewpoints and asking when "libs are going to stop riding the horse of Obama killing UBL" is not one of them. I'm not going to apologize for calling out that comment as inflammatory and ridiculous.

 

[chrono]

I agree with most, if not all, of iLander's post. I don't like it that they are forcing their religious doctrine on everyone, much less an extreme version of it. I am also surprised to not read of moderate Muslims not speaking out against this extreme version of their religion.

It is interesting because I have friends who are Muslim who do speak out against this extremism but it does seem that in the public eye the general Muslim population does not. But yes I have many friends who are Muslim who do speak out against this.

Missy,
I spent some time in a Muslim dominant county a few weeks ago and none of them spoke about the increase in extremist attacks. None condoned the violence and acted as though it never happened. The minority non-Muslims didn't seem to really care about it either as long as it wasn't on their soil.

 

[redwood66]

I agree with most, if not all, of iLander's post. I don't like it that they are forcing their religious doctrine on everyone, much less an extreme version of it. I am also surprised to not read of moderate Muslims not speaking out against this extreme version of their religion.

It is interesting because I have friends who are Muslim who do speak out against this extremism but it does seem that in the public eye the general Muslim population does not. But yes I have many friends who are Muslim who do speak out against this.

Missy,
I spent some time in a Muslim dominant county a few weeks ago and none of them spoke about the increase in extremist attacks. None condoned the violence and acted as though it never happened. The non-Muslims didn't seem to really care about it either as long as it wasn't on their soil.

I think this is the most frustrating for many people because we need their help in this.

 

[Matata]

Missy,
I spent some time in a Muslim dominant county a few weeks ago and none of them spoke about the increase in extremist attacks. None condoned the violence and acted as though it never happened. The non-Muslims didn't seem to really care about it either as long as it wasn't on their soil.

In a few articles and analyses I've read this past year, it's been hypothesized that there is a cognitive dissonance among Muslims living in Western societies between the tenets of their religion that speaks to peace and those that insist that all infidels (anyone who does subscribe to the Muslim faith) must be destroyed. I haven't read all of the Quran yet or all of the hadith but some of what I have read states that the peaceful tenets of those texts apply only to those of the Muslim faith.

 

[AGBF]

No wonder conservatives don't post here. The imperious view of many and denigrating of anyone that does not share that view to the point of calling someone stupid and not intelligent to debate with. Keep stroking each other with your views and adoration of others with the same POV. Its a jewelry forum for pete's sake and not the place for someone to learn about the world. Many other places for that. Today is the first day of my retirement and I'll not have it ruined by a few pinheads on PS.

Redwood, I just want to say I am not against you and I agree that most of us can do with learning tolerance towards each other and our different points of view. Don't let anybody here make you feel stupid for any reason. It is a tool some use to end a debate or sharing of ideas and I don't understand why they do that. If one wants their views respected please be respectful of differing views. There is a way to disagree and share dissenting viewpoints that is constructive and a way that is not constructive. I hope you will stay and continue sharing your thoughts here.

Congratulations on your retirement.

Thank you Missy and I appreciate it. Some PSers are nice and even though we have differing views we try not to call each other names. I am frustrated with the government at this point.

I do understand you said "try". But I also heard you call some of us who who disagree with you"pinheads" today.

Deb

 

[redwood66]

No wonder conservatives don't post here. The imperious view of many and denigrating of anyone that does not share that view to the point of calling someone stupid and not intelligent to debate with. Keep stroking each other with your views and adoration of others with the same POV. Its a jewelry forum for pete's sake and not the place for someone to learn about the world. Many other places for that. Today is the first day of my retirement and I'll not have it ruined by a few pinheads on PS.

Redwood, I just want to say I am not against you and I agree that most of us can do with learning tolerance towards each other and our different points of view. Don't let anybody here make you feel stupid for any reason. It is a tool some use to end a debate or sharing of ideas and I don't understand why they do that. If one wants their views respected please be respectful of differing views. There is a way to disagree and share dissenting viewpoints that is constructive and a way that is not constructive. I hope you will stay and continue sharing your thoughts here.

Congratulations on your retirement.

Thank you Missy and I appreciate it. Some PSers are nice and even though we have differing views we try not to call each other names. I am frustrated with the government at this point.

I do understand you said "try". But I also heard you call some of us who who disagree with you"pinheads" today.

Deb

I was talking about the name calling people and you are wise enough to know that Deb.

 

[Dancing Fire]

That is a wonderful sentiment but I still don't give a damn all day long. You fix it Deb. And how long are libs gonna ride that "he killed UBL" horse? He didn't do it. It took many thousands of hours of work by very dedicated military and CIA/NSA and other acronyms we probably don't know.

Yes we have to be involved helping Europe find out. But that is already being done so it makes no difference whether I care about their reason. I don't need to care. I need to make sure my government is doing enough to stop it.

Redwood, I'm going to be frank -- the way you talk about Democrats really makes you lose a lot of credibility as a person to have intelligent debate with.

I'm also curious in how Obama is supposed to take any action against terrorism with a complete obstructionist Congress who then scream executive overreach when he tries to find workable solutions to do ANYTHING.

Really after the way the Republicans are talked about? Seriously? People vary as kenny says. But I should be concerned about MY credibility in your eyes. Much of America feels the way I do but they are not on PS for sure.

You are the only conservative left on PS...

 

[AGBF]

You are the only conservative left on PS...

You said that to redwood before, Dancing Fire. Are you now failing to label yourself and Holly (whom you wished to see as President of the United States) as conservative?

Deb

 

[Queenie60]

That is a wonderful sentiment but I still don't give a damn all day long. You fix it Deb. And how long are libs gonna ride that "he killed UBL" horse? He didn't do it. It took many thousands of hours of work by very dedicated military and CIA/NSA and other acronyms we probably don't know.

Yes we have to be involved helping Europe find out. But that is already being done so it makes no difference whether I care about their reason. I don't need to care. I need to make sure my government is doing enough to stop it.

Redwood, I'm going to be frank -- the way you talk about Democrats really makes you lose a lot of credibility as a person to have intelligent debate with.

I'm also curious in how Obama is supposed to take any action against terrorism with a complete obstructionist Congress who then scream executive overreach when he tries to find workable solutions to do ANYTHING.

Really after the way the Republicans are talked about? Seriously? People vary as kenny says. But I should be concerned about MY credibility in your eyes. Much of America feels the way I do but they are not on PS for sure.

You are the only conservative left on PS...

No DF! I'm a conservative and still standing. I do not comment on any of the political subjects any longer - I'm always left to feel that my POV is not valued simply because it is not the same as the majority on this forum. That's okay - there are so many PS subjects that I find to be more interesting and I will continue to keep my political views to myself. I too, feel that the libs speak very badly of the conservative comments made on this forum. I admire the few of you who have the balls to continue to speak out!

 

[redwood66]

No wonder conservatives don't post here. The imperious view of many and denigrating of anyone that does not share that view to the point of calling someone stupid and not intelligent to debate with. Keep stroking each other with your views and adoration of others with the same POV. Its a jewelry forum for pete's sake and not the place for someone to learn about the world. Many other places for that. Today is the first day of my retirement and I'll not have it ruined by a few pinheads on PS.

Redwood, I just want to say I am not against you and I agree that most of us can do with learning tolerance towards each other and our different points of view. Don't let anybody here make you feel stupid for any reason. It is a tool some use to end a debate or sharing of ideas and I don't understand why they do that. If one wants their views respected please be respectful of differing views. There is a way to disagree and share dissenting viewpoints that is constructive and a way that is not constructive. I hope you will stay and continue sharing your thoughts here.

Congratulations on your retirement.

There's absolutely a way to share views and dissenting viewpoints and asking when "libs are going to stop riding the horse of Obama killing UBL" is not one of them. I'm not going to apologize for calling out that comment as inflammatory and ridiculous.

You did not say inflammatory and ridiculous. You said

the way you talk about Democrats really makes you lose a lot of credibility as a person to have intelligent debate with.

I will not debate with you because your ideology to me is ridiculous. There is no debate in my mind as a conservative.

 

[Dancing Fire]

You are the only conservative left on PS...

You said that to redwood before, Dancing Fire. Are you now failing to label yourself and Holly (whom you wished to see as President of the United States) as conservative?

Deb

The Dems. scared Holly S away...

 

[Matata]

I will not debate with you because your ideology to me is ridiculous. There is no debate in my mind as a conservative.

And therein lies the problem with all of us. Married to our personal ideology to the exclusion of all others. Thick walls built in our minds about who is absolutely categorically right. Lack of conversation and debate solves nothing. Conversation and debate, no matter how rancorous or contentious, has the potential to shift thinking into a new arena where all potential solutions can be aired, shared, and cherrypicked for the best resolution. We simply have to keep reminding ourselves that compromise is part of the foundation of progress.

 

[Dancing Fire]

No DF! I'm a conservative and still standing. I do not comment on any of the political subjects any longer - I'm always left to feel that my POV is not valued simply because it is not the same as the majority on this forum. That's okay - there are so many PS subjects that I find to be more interesting and I will continue to keep my political views to myself. I too, feel that the libs speak very badly of the conservative comments made on this forum. I admire the few of you who have the balls to continue to speak out!

Nothing have changed since 2008 in spite of the fact that Mr. Obama have taken our country down the wrong path ... but I still love all the Libs/Dems. here...

 

[Amber St. Clare]

IF it was Islamic terrorists, their God told them to, Kenny. Or at least their priests, ministers - whatever you want to call them - did. They are doing it for religion. Their "imaginary being".

There. Now do you get it? Can you combine a condescending religion lecture with a PC "maybe they have a good reason" terrorist debate, Kenny? I'm pretty pissed tonight . . .

And I'm sick of it. I'm sick of "not asking the Muslims to condemn it". Even when "Christians" were shooting at abortion clinics in the early '90's, the real Christians rang out from sooooo many pulpits to say they were against it. Why are the Muslims so mute? Where is their "Not in my name" campaign?

I'm sick of the US government going into Arab countries and screwing around with their governments, killing people, and then being surprised when terrorists get pissed off. How can you possibly be surprised?

I'm sick of many Arab cultures where women are denigrated, treated like chattal, abused, stoned, killed, mutilated and murdered. I'm tired of them bringing their violence to my doorstep.

Remember a few months back when I asked why ISIS still had Twitter accounts? And you guys were saying things like "Well, I'm sure the FBI is using it to track them"? Just as I thought, they did not have a handle on it. Turns out they can't even hack an iPhone. We are ill-equipped to fight these people. Our government agents are NOTHING like what you see on TV. They don't even have the brains to reach out the private sector to ask for help. The hacker group Anonymous started alerting Twitter so the accounts could be deleted. That finally cut that nonsense down, so that brainless teens could stop going there. Morons.

I'm sick of the NRA defending "gun rights" to the point where they are willing to sell guns to terrorists, before they will budge one speck on background checks, no-fly lists, or cross-referencing between Federal and state agencies. I've got news for these "constitutional advocates"; the constitution says the guns are for the "well-organized militia". That does not mean your uncle Bubba and his Uzi collection.

So yeah, I'm sick of it. It's time to act like grownups, put on our big girl pants, bottom out the price of oil again (like we did a few months ago) and tell the Arabs to clean out the terrorist rats out of their houses, once and for all.

Rant over.

Ilander: I love this post so much I want to take I to the nearest hot sheet motel for the weekend. I can't type much these days due to physical issues and when someone sums up how I feel about things in a way such as your post I want to hug the author.

 

[redwood66]

I will not debate with you because your ideology to me is ridiculous. There is no debate in my mind as a conservative.

And therein lies the problem with all of us. Married to our personal ideology to the exclusion of all others. Thick walls built in our minds about who is absolutely categorically right. Lack of conversation and debate solves nothing. Conversation and debate, no matter how rancorous or contentious, has the potential to shift thinking into a new arena where all potential solutions can be aired, shared, and cherrypicked for the best resolution. We simply have to keep reminding ourselves that compromise is part of the foundation of progress.

The operative words in this are we and our and us. So we agree on something.

 

[AGBF]

The Dems. scared Holly S away...

You had better not let Holly catch you saying that. She's from Texas, remember. I don't think she would take kindly to the implication that she scares so easily.

Deb/AGBF

 

[missy]

Last night I started reading the book "Talking to the Enemy: Faith, Brotherhood, and the (Un)Making of Terrorists" by Scott Atran and it is riveting. I have a busy weekend so will not be able to finish it in the next few days but I just wanted to post here because I think everyone interested in the subject of terrorism should read it. Then we can all have a discussion here if people are willing to share their thoughts. Thank you to Karen (Ksinger) for sharing this.

Just a couple of sentences from the book to pique your interest and perhaps entice you to read the book.

The terrorists aren’t nihilists, starkly or ambiguously, but often deeply moral souls with a
horribly misplaced sense of justice.

“War is noble in a true cause that is worth more than
life."

Glory is the promise to take life and surrender it in the hope of giving greater life to some group of genetically bound strangers who believe they share an imagined community under God.

This kind of courage to kill and die is not innate. It’s a path to violence that has to be cultivated and channeled to a target.

Humans and other primates have two preoccupations in life: health and social relations. Actually, they’re often the same: socialize to survive. But unlike our hairy distant kin, humans are also obsessively cause-seeking animals. So much so that we can’t help believing that the world was created for the cause seekers, or at least for the collectivity that seeks to show through sacrifice how much it cares. This belief that our world was intended for the committed community is what I call the Cause. It is a mystical thing, a product of our biological evolution and history that gives spiritual purpose to our lives. How and why this illusion came to drive humanity and make itself real in the creation of cultures and the religious rise of civilizations is the deep background that frames this work.

Atran, Scott (2010-10-19). Talking to the Enemy: Faith, Brotherhood, and the (Un)Making of Terrorists (Kindle Locations 474-47. HarperCollins.

 

[ksinger]

Last night I started reading the book "Talking to the Enemy: Faith, Brotherhood, and the (Un)Making of Terrorists" by Scott Atran and it is riveting. I have a busy weekend so will not be able to finish it in the next few days but I just wanted to post here because I think everyone interested in the subject of terrorism should read it. Then we can all have a discussion here if people are willing to share their thoughts. Thank you to Karen (Ksinger) for sharing this.

Just a couple of sentences from the book to pique your interest and perhaps entice you to read the book.

The terrorists aren’t nihilists, starkly or ambiguously, but often deeply moral souls with a
horribly misplaced sense of justice.

“War is noble in a true cause that is worth more than
life."

Glory is the promise to take life and surrender it in the hope of giving greater life to some group of genetically bound strangers who believe they share an imagined community under God.

This kind of courage to kill and die is not innate. It’s a path to violence that has to be cultivated and channeled to a target.

Humans and other primates have two preoccupations in life: health and social relations. Actually, they’re often the same: socialize to survive. But unlike our hairy distant kin, humans are also obsessively cause-seeking animals. So much so that we can’t help believing that the world was created for the cause seekers, or at least for the collectivity that seeks to show through sacrifice how much it cares. This belief that our world was intended for the committed community is what I call the Cause. It is a mystical thing, a product of our biological evolution and history that gives spiritual purpose to our lives. How and why this illusion came to drive humanity and make itself real in the creation of cultures and the religious rise of civilizations is the deep background that frames this work.

Atran, Scott (2010-10-19). Talking to the Enemy: Faith, Brotherhood, and the (Un)Making of Terrorists (Kindle Locations 474-47. HarperCollins.

Told ya it was good.

Glad you're enjoying it. Although, I'll need to refresh myself on it if I'm going to do any joining in a discussion. I was reading it last December, and well, a lot of stuff has happened since then. That and the fact that my husband just loaned it out last week. It gets loaned periodically. Hmm...it may be out for a bit too, come to think of it. I may have to get another copy....

 

[ksinger]

Woot! I found the Kindle version for 99 cents! Who knew?? I prefer genuine books, but waiting on the real one to come home is going to take too long. Electronic will do in a pinch.

 

[missy]

Woot! I found the Kindle version for 99 cents! Who knew?? I prefer genuine books, but waiting on the real one to come home is going to take too long. Electronic will do in a pinch.

Yes, I prefer real books too but kindle/other electronic devices do come in handy and .99 is a real deal. I am reading it on my Mac as it is much easier than reading it on the kindle.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

We do need to wake up and realize the threat to our freedom in this country if we do not acknowledge it and fight it in every way possible. It does disturb me that the current administration really does not even call this terrorism what it really is.

I see headlines in mainstream news (CNN and major networks) like this one:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/28/asia/pakistan-women-light-beating/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/05/26/pakistani-husbands-can-lightly-beat-their-wives-islamic-council-says/

This is the Council of Islamic Ideology making recommendations to the legislators in Pakistan.

“A husband should be allowed to lightly beat his wife if she defies his commands and refuses to dress up as per his desires; turns down demand of intercourse without any religious excuse or does not take bath after intercourse or menstrual periods,” the report states, according to Pakistan’s Express-Tribune newspaper."

"The CII, which claims that its recommendations are based on Koranic teachings and Sharia law, also seeks to legalize domestic violence if a woman refuses to cover her head or face in public, “interacts with strangers; speaks loud enough that she can easily be heard by strangers; and provides monetary support to people without taking consent of her spouse,” the Express-Tribune reported."

I read a disturbing article recently that said that there was a quiet movement going on for Islam to become majority in many countries over the next 50 years due partly to immigration and partly due to a much higher birthrate in those families as opposed to those who are natives of those countries.

Liberals and conservatives need to find common ground, because we could see our grandchildren or great grandchildren living in a world that looks vastly different. And all the gains that women and other groups have made towards equality could all be lost. There are already pockets in European countries that are having terrible problems with some of their immigrants/refugees and where it is not safe for others to go. It's not politically correct to talk about it, but I think if we stick our heads in the sand, we are going to get kicked in the rear big time.

 

[AGBF]

DS-

How is President Obama responsible for fundamentalist religious movements in other countries? I strongly disagree that he should alienate all Muslims by emphasizing that many people in the United States are not Muslim and therefore that we condemn all Islam. Is he, now, supposed to speak out on everything? What about his speaking out on that athlete who beat his child with a switch? Was that, also, his job? Many people in our country as well as in other countries have practices that I regard as primitive. We may be able to outlaw them in the United States. We have less power in other sovereign nations. Perhaps we should start with reforming our own country first. Let's get rid of our own violence against women and children.

AGBF

 

[diamondseeker2006]

DS-

How is President Obama responsible for fundamentalist religious movements in other countries? I strongly disagree that he should alienate all Muslims by emphasizing that many people in the United States are not Muslim and therefore that we condemn all Islam. Is he, now, supposed to speak out on everything? What about his speaking out on that athlete who beat his child with a switch? Was that, also, his job? Many people in our country as well as in other countries have practices that I regard as primitive. We may be able to outlaw them in the United States. We have less power in other sovereign nations. Perhaps we should start with reforming our own country first. Let's get rid of our own violence against women and children.

AGBF

Deb, I didn't say the president is responsible for fundamentalist religious movements in other countries. But the terrorists in Nice and San Bernadino, etc. had an ideology in common. That ideology is alive here in the US. No one on this thread has said it applies to all Muslims since that would be absurd. But others have pointed out that there hasn't been a huge outcry against extremism by the broader Muslim community leadership in the US, either. There should be no offense to modern American Muslims who reject Sharia law and embrace the law and freedom we offer here by using the term "radical Islamic terrorism". Hillary Clinton will use the term.