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Lab grown diamonds will make good natural diamonds way more expensive

VDK1

Shiny_Rock
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Wiki is not the same as scientist associations.
This is full of mis info from ameuters.
e.g. "Natural, synthetic and imitation diamonds are most commonly distinguished using optical techniques or thermal conductivity measurements."
Advise what is the definitions of diamond from scientist associations, please?
 

VDK1

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Is GIA a scientist association?

 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
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use Goo
Is GIA a scientist association?

No, GIA is an education body that does research and tests and grades gems.
You can google mineralogical societies and the conferences they hold internationally.
There is also CIBJO and other global orgs.
But the question is moot.
Man made substances can not be minerals.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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hahaha google- not goo!!!
I agree - happy to have MMD's in SMTB but it is not my call.
But not imitants or MM colored gems as there are some that may qualify and others that are very inexpensive - it becomes a nightmare for moderation.
 

Karl_K

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hahaha google- not goo!!!
I agree - happy to have MMD's in SMTB but it is not my call.
But not imitants or MM colored gems as there are some that may qualify and others that are very inexpensive - it becomes a nightmare for moderation.
flood gates open or closed is the question.
 

mrsthirdcharms

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flood gates open or closed is the question.
As far as Lab Diamonds are concerned, I have to tell you that the horse has left the barn... consider the floodgates down. The market demand is there, and it’s only going to grow.

Right or wrong, the market that DeBeers created 100+ years ago wasn’t for sapphire, ruby, pearl, etc. They created demand for diamond. Now there’s lab created *real* carbon diamonds. It’s not the same thing as other lab gems, because of that “diamond is forever“ campaign that cemented this gem into the bridal market, & collective psyche. The symbolism is way too strong.

Brides & proud bridegrooms want to show off their token of commitment, and other milestones. MMD isn’t going away anytime soon, and it’s pretty clear that it won’t be relegated to crap costume pieces. The market must adapt. Let proud happy people show off their beautiful bling. It’s still going to push traffic, either way.
 

Karl_K

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As far as Lab Diamonds are concerned, I have to tell you that the horse has left the barn... consider the floodgates down. The market demand is there, and it’s only going to grow.

Right or wrong, the market that DeBeers created 100+ years ago wasn’t for sapphire, ruby, pearl, etc. They created demand for diamond. Now there’s lab created *real* carbon diamonds. It’s not the same thing as other lab gems, because of that “diamond is forever“ campaign that cemented this gem into the bridal market, & collective psyche. The symbolism is way too strong.

Brides & proud bridegrooms want to show off their token of commitment, and other milestones. MMD isn’t going away anytime soon, and it’s pretty clear that it won’t be relegated to crap costume pieces. The market must adapt. Let proud happy people show off their beautiful bling. It’s still going to push traffic, either way.
Diamond mining is going to go the way of the dodo bird so mmd is the long term future.

The flood gate I was talking about was man made gems in smtb.
Once you open the gate to man made its hard to stop just at diamond.
 

VDK1

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Right or wrong, the market that DeBeers (Light Box) has just created for 2 years isn't for the bridal market but is the same thing as other lab gems.
So why not let proud happy people show off their beautiful bling of MM jems?
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Yep, "google"!
For the time being, only "minerals" are there.
As I wrote - it is simple
A gem is a mineral by definition.
A mineral is natural by definition
There is no man made mineral
Hence gems are by definition natural

These are definitions based on science and scientists global organisations agreements.

This matters because we do not allow imitations
 

VDK1

Shiny_Rock
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As I wrote - it is simple
A gem is a mineral by definition.
A mineral is natural by definition
There is no man made mineral
Hence gems are by definition natural

These are definitions based on science and scientists global organisations agreements.

This matters because we do not allow imitations
Oh, yes simple!
A diamond is a mineral by definition
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Diamond mining is going to go the way of the dodo bird so mmd is the long term future.

The flood gate I was talking about was man made gems in smtb.
Once you open the gate to man made its hard to stop just at diamond.
I disagree slightly - as I wrote at the start when I opened this discussion.
Yes - there will be far fewer new mines.

As LGD production increases replacing low quality ‘not quite right’ looking diamonds in shopping mall jewellers around the world, some mines will close. Diamond prospectors already struggle for funding. Very few or no new mines will be found to replace aging mines like Argyle.

The Argyle mine doubled the quantity of diamonds over its lifetime. The rough diamonds had very low value, averaging $6 to $10 per carat. Better looking LGD’s will replace very cheap brownish heavily included tiny gems. If Argyle were discovered today no financiers would fund a $2B mine. We would never have had Argyle pink diamonds were it not for demand for very cheap NQR gems.

As a result existing higher quality diamonds and surviving new mines (helped by XRF technology) will rise in value because whether we like it or not 80% of the wealth is in the hands of 20% of the population (Pickety thinks 1% own 90%). Those people will want natural diamonds. Natrual diamond rarity will result in better quality diamonds increasing in value over the coming decade.
 

VDK1

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80% of the wealth is in the hands of 20% of the population (Pickety thinks 1% own 90%). Those people will want natural diamonds. Natrual diamond rarity will result in better quality diamonds increasing in value over the coming decade.
Agreed!
The rest 80% of the population may go for man made things. If such demand of MMD raises, more and more mass production players from China, India or from elsewhere will enter and compete in the market. The popularity of MMD will result in the decreasing in price, which will be surely a very very good thing!
 

sparklyshrink

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I think it is likely true that well cut mined diamonds may increased in value as lab diamonds (continue) to take off. However, I think the amount of people interested in them will likely decrease. I am a fairly affluent millennia who spends time with fellow professional/affluent millenials (doctors, lawyers, etc.). I can say, no one cares much about mined diamonds and lab diamonds have increasing cache in my generation due to environmental concerns. We millenials like a bargain as well, due to graduating right around the 2008 crash (no jobs) as well as having high debt due to exploding education costs. I would argue my generation is much more likely to prefer to save/invest instead of spend because of this. Now maybe we are not the target market, as we are not the 0.01% or whatever. I do think the younger generations, even the well-to-do, are embracing MMDs.
 

VDK1

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Lab diamonds have increasing cache in people due to mostly price concerns.
Environment or echo friendly of such man made things maybe are only flowery marketing terms unless proper audits are provided.
Can we know if a MMD mass production supplier has a country of origin that environment cost is so cheap?
 
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sparklyshrink

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I agree that the environmental concerns are a gimmick (and ridiculous considering the mining that goes on for the cobalt to make the lithium batteries in all our smart phones, but I digress). But the concerns are real and having a real effect, even if they're silly. Lots of concern about "blood diamonds" is still out there.
 

VDK1

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I agree that the environmental concerns are a gimmick (and ridiculous considering the mining that goes on for the cobalt to make the lithium batteries in all our smart phones, but I digress). But the concerns are real and having a real effect, even if they're silly. Lots of concern about "blood diamonds" is still out there.
With the Kimberley process and the help of new technology like XRT there are no "blood diamonds" . But there will be more and more jobless workers and poor families due to the mines shutdown!
 

sparklyshrink

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With the Kimberley process and the help of new technology like XRT there are no "blood diamonds" . But there will be more and more jobless workers and poor families due to the mines shutdown!
Right. I agree with you about the blood diamond thing. I feel like you're not actually reading my post but instead just making talking points?
 

MelloYello8

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Agreed!
The rest 80% of the population may go for man made things. If such demand of MMD raises, more and more mass production players from China, India or from elsewhere will enter and compete in the market. The popularity of MMD will result in the decreasing in price, which will be surely a very very good thing!
I don’t know if I’d be an outlier but I’m fortunate to be well within the top tier of personal/household wealth, but for ethical reasons still prefer man made diamonds over natural ones unless the natural ones are pre-owned. Also for ethical reasons, I would far prefer man-made diamonds manufactured in the United States or other locations known for humane labor practices. I would pay a premium for a diamond certified to be “made in the USA.”
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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I don’t know if I’d be an outlier but I’m fortunate to be well within the top tier of personal/household wealth, but for ethical reasons still prefer man made diamonds over natural ones unless the natural ones are pre-owned. Also for ethical reasons, I would far prefer man-made diamonds manufactured in the United States or other locations known for humane labor practices. I would pay a premium for a diamond certified to be “made in the USA.”
OK, gotcha :) A couple of outlier questions ;-)
1. You know the US made diamonds will be polished in India - is that a problem for you? (It is a little bit of an issue for me because there is less skill and lower pay because there are no natural inclusions to be planned around - less skill = lower pay)
2. Your pre-owned older diamonds were far more likely to have been mined with forced labor, slaves, conflict blood diamonds.

So while I am at the devils avocation - what about the million artisanal diamond miners in Africa and Brazil? Is it better for them to go cobalt and gold mining (using cyanide etc)?

End of ranting hahahaha

I think there is a place for MMD and Natural diamonds just like its great to have Macca's and posh places to eat :)
 

Eeveepenny

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I think there is a place for MMD and Natural diamonds just like its great to have Macca's and posh places to eat :)
:shock: I’m not sure how this comparison is relevant to diamonds? Unless it was just to say that maccas eating people have MMD’s and posh restaurant eating people have natural? If that’s the case, I disagree - I think it would be the other way around as MMD buyers would have more surplus money to spend at posh restaurants;)2
 
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VDK1

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I don’t know if I’d be an outlier but I’m fortunate to be well within the top tier of personal/household wealth, but for ethical reasons still prefer man made diamonds over natural ones unless the natural ones are pre-owned. Also for ethical reasons, I would far prefer man-made diamonds manufactured in the United States or other locations known for humane labor practices. I would pay a premium for a diamond certified to be “made in the USA.”
Oh, I have to say that I’m also fortunate to be well within the top tier of business owner wealth. For ethical reasons still prefer (nature) diamonds. By knowing diamond 's orgin today, I am understanding that a diamond was mined responsibly. I also can understand the impact my purchase has on the development of that country’s local communities. I am not only helping people thrive in places that once struggled, but also helping to build infrastructure, educate young people, and bring health systems to whole populations... so on and so on.

Also for ethical reasons, later on I may sell all my diamonds and donate to the poor? Who knows?

You are right, "You would pay a premium for a diamond certified to be “made in the USA.” But unfortunately it is likely NOT the actual case! At least, those are being cut in India, Anwerp or China and we have doubts about humane labor practices. And the if mmd market has such demand, this would be a price-oriented market!!!
 

MelloYello8

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OK, gotcha :) A couple of outlier questions ;-)
1. You know the US made diamonds will be polished in India - is that a problem for you? (It is a little bit of an issue for me because there is less skill and lower pay because there are no natural inclusions to be planned around - less skill = lower pay)
2. Your pre-owned older diamonds were far more likely to have been mined with forced labor, slaves, conflict blood diamonds.

So while I am at the devils avocation - what about the million artisanal diamond miners in Africa and Brazil? Is it better for them to go cobalt and gold mining (using cyanide etc)?

End of ranting hahahaha

I think there is a place for MMD and Natural diamonds just like its great to have Macca's and posh places to eat :)
1. Potentially yes I could see that as an issue, which is why the recent increase of consumer interest and thus new companies in the lab diamond market is actually a bit of a deterrent for me. Just a few years ago, it seemed that most lab diamonds sold in the American jewelry market were nearly by default made in the USA. It was certainly so when I got engaged with a lab diamond in 2007. That’s obviously no longer the case.

2. While true, shopping pre-owned has less impact than shopping for a new diamond on incentivizing bad actors.

Re Devils advocate— My husband and I met while collaborating on combatting African arms trafficking, he was born and raised in Africa, and we got engaged shortly after the Di Caprio movie. 15 years later we still have careers in international relations and each spend much of our time living and working in places where humans are often not treated as such. I might take the severity of conflict diamonds a little more personally than some in the “20%” to which you refer. However I know I’m not alone.
 

MelloYello8

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Oh, I have to say that I’m also fortunate to be well within the top tier of business owner wealth. For ethical reasons still prefer (nature) diamonds. By knowing diamond 's orgin today, I am understanding that a diamond was mined responsibly. I also can understand the impact my purchase has on the development of that country’s local communities. I am not only helping people thrive in places that once struggled, but also helping to build infrastructure, educate young people, and bring health systems to whole populations... so on and so on.

Also for ethical reasons, later on I may sell all my diamonds and donate to the poor? Who knows?

You are right, "You would pay a premium for a diamond certified to be “made in the USA.” But unfortunately it is likely NOT the actual case! At least, those are being cut in India, Anwerp or China and we have doubts about humane labor practices. And the if mmd market has such demand, this would be a price-oriented market!!!
I think the natural diamond market is improving in their transparency so I’m starting to lean towards trusting some more traditional vendors more than pop up lab diamond ones. Under new traceability measures, Tiffany’s now reports the country of origin for each diamond over .18 ct. That is a big deal to me and I hope other retailers follow.

 

VDK1

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I think the natural diamond market is improving in their transparency so I’m starting to lean towards trusting some more traditional vendors more than pop up lab diamond ones. Under new traceability measures, Tiffany’s now reports the country of origin for each diamond over .18 ct. That is a big deal to me and I hope other retailers follow.

Yes, those big names Tiffany, Harry Winston, Forevermark, Graff ... are commited to the protection of nature. They are also doing the diamonds cuting, polishing in house. But that is the market for ... 20% of the wealthy polpulation and for the other nature diamond enthusiasts.
The MMD market is not the same. The most buyers' concern would be price and or to save $ for other things in life. So what are the " ethical reasons " to go for it in such price oriented market, while there are still questions about environment cost, about humane labor practices ?
 

Daisys and Diamonds

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This thread has taken an interesting and thought providing turn
down the mall i was sold a lab grown coloured gemstone as being good as no one had to get dirty and dig in the earth for it
 

VDK1

Shiny_Rock
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This thread has taken an interesting and thought providing turn
down the mall i was sold a lab grown coloured gemstone as being good as no one had to get dirty and dig in the earth for it
yes... and someone consumed energy to make it, some carbon footprint maybe?
Can a lab grown coloured gemstone come from nowhere?
 

Daisys and Diamonds

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yes... and someone consumed energy to make it, some carbon footprint maybe?
Can a lab grown coloured gemstone come from nowhere?
Well yes i realise its not perfect
To be perfectly honest i don't care about being carbon natural
Ive done plenty of other things throught out my life to compensate like not have children and take clean energy public transport or walk to work
So i personally as a consumer would not take that into account when comparing MM to lab grown

Fare wages and safe working conditions are another matter
 
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