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Just exactly what should I expect with "vvs"?

kt

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Messages
286
I just got a pink spine that was listed as "vvs to IF" but when i look at it" there is a tiny dot of an inclusion in the stone. It's right smack in the middle under the table, and while small, you can see it without magnification.

So if the stone is listed as vvs to IF, doesn't it mean that there shouldn't be stuff like that on it? Or are my expectations for a spinel too high? I realize a few small inclusions might be good to show the stone is real but I was a bit surprised. I'll post a pic in a sec.
 

kt

Shiny_Rock
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Jan 30, 2003
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286
I should also say the stone is super sparkly, so when it's all shiny, you can only see it at certain angles so I don't know if setting it would make a difference. I can see it better from the pavilion side, but when u turn the stone a certain way when it is right side up, you can see the tiny speck there.
 

kt

Shiny_Rock
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Jan 30, 2003
Messages
286
So here is the stone - I want to say here that I LOVE it - it's a gorgeous shade of pink, though a tad darker/more intense than I thought I wanted for the purposes of my ring. Vendor pics are VERY accurate and were better than what I could do on my iPhone...this one is probably the closest to what it is in most lighting conditions, and it's quite beautiful!

As you can see from the photo, you can't see the teeny inclusion and like I said, you can only see it from some angles. I guess in lighter stones you'll see more inclusions than in darker ones! I want to set it in this setting:


So my other question is, what is everyone's opinion of the stone in this setting? Do you think the stone is too dark, i.e., the contrast against the metal would be too much? I do love the warmth of this particular diamond in this setting and originally I thought i'd be looking for a lighter stone, but then that started getting too "washed out", and this pink seemed nice.

pink spinel litnon 5.jpg

james meyer style 2 ring.jpg
 

kt

Shiny_Rock
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Jan 30, 2003
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I was thinking this color combo was a good example of how the pink on white metal could look...

caleb meyer pink on white metal.jpg
 

stargurl78

Ideal_Rock
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Apr 19, 2010
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I don't think I would stress too much about the inclusion, its a very pretty stone! And it sounds like you are happy with the color and the sparkliness of it. I think it would look great in that setting but I'm not sure if it would darken the stone so I can't speak to that. Hopefully someone who has more knowledge about these things will chime in...
 

minousbijoux

Super_Ideal_Rock
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It is disappointing to me when vendors list stones as vvs or vs and inclusions are visible. VS or better means eye clean. If you can see the inclusion without a loupe, then its an overstatement to call it vs. So the question for you is whether or not the inclusion will bother you and only you know that.

As to the color, I love it :love: - it looks sparkly and well cut.
 

Arkteia

Ideal_Rock
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The color is wonderful, beautiful and the stone is saturated - I would not think much about the inclusion. I am not commenting on the setting merely because I would consider prongs, but it is a matter of taste. Tan should have been more precise in his description, but nevertheless, congratulations on a lovely stone!
 

JewelFreak

Ideal_Rock
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Sep 3, 2009
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7,768
Very pretty stone, nice cut & saturation. The inclusion wouldn't be important to me either. Like Crasru, I'd set it w/prongs because bezeling might darken it some & it has such a nice sparkle to it.
 

chrono

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Apr 22, 2004
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To be accurate, when a spinel is listed as VVS/IF, it should be eye clean, but then again, when I'm shopping for gemstones, my clarity criteria is different - it's either eye clean or it isn't. I definitely do not go as far as loupe clean for coloured gemstones unless it just happens to be so and I know for a fact it isn't a synthetic. Is this a deal breaker for you? I'll probably let go of something this small if I like the colour enough.
 

kt

Shiny_Rock
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Jan 30, 2003
Messages
286
Well, I guess this is where I need some input from you guys with more experience in CS than I do. I LOVE the color of this stone, and I had a spare bezel cup lying around from my jewelry making days and the stone doesn't darken too much in a full bezel. This ring is actual a bezel with an open pavilion (the setting sits on top of a bridge), so there would be more light going in.

As for the inclusion: it's a TINY TINY TINY bubble that sits pretty much smack in the middle of the table. Because it's so sparkly, you can only see it when you look at the stone at certain angles...but you CAN see it when you tilt it right. My question is, the stone was $240, and all these other stones I looked at were VS, so I can only believe the inclusions would be greater/more obvious. Do you think I could find a stone of equal color/saturation, but without that tiny bubble, for about the same price, or is this stone a reasonable quality for the price?

For perspective, the dimensions of the stone is 7 x 6.4 x 5 and is a great cut.

Thanks so much for all your input!!!
 

chrono

Super_Ideal_Rock
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So it's around 2 carats?
 

movie zombie

Super_Ideal_Rock
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color stones do not have the same clearly defined defintions re clarity as do diamonds. the trend by color stone vendors to use that system leads to each vendor defining for themselves how they will market stones. i think the descriptives of VS or whatever for color stones is deceptive for new buyers as it leads to expectations. i prefer a description of the inclusions and to make up my own mind.
 

mastercutgems

Shiny_Rock
Trade
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Jul 15, 2009
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356
I will have to agree with Chrono and moviezombie...

I guess being in this for over 20 years I am one of the old timers, whew that is scary :shock:

But colored gems were always listed as eye clean which meant if you held it to your eye from 4 to 6 inches away and saw nothing it was eye clean; then there was included which meant it had junk in it... You also had to take into consideration the mineral type being 1, 2, 3 and then you determined if that was very clean for the mineral type or included for that mineral type... Color also plays a part as more intense colors with higher element contents like Chromium, Iron, etc. usually had more stuff in it like emerald and double blue aquamarine...

It all boils down to if you think the inclusion bothers you or not; some gems I love for the inclusions in them and some I had rather not see anything but the cut and the BLING, and the color.

I know I have fallen into the trap of Vs, VVs, etc. and i may just go back to the normal for colored gems but everyone here in the states is so hooked up on diamond grading we sometimes fall into something that is trendy instead of what was the standard for 100 years.

I know if you list something IF; well you had better take the 100x microscope to it as others will and it will not be IF any longer :)

If the price is right; and you love the gem; don't let a tiny nick of a inclusion kill the joy from the gem.

I know it was the same when I built my home; I could not enjoy it as I was always finding fault with something and it was my work and other vendors. Finally after a case of hives I decided I would not live long enough to enjoy the home I just spent 3 years building and 150K on... Not good; enjoy life to the fullest and remember we too are not perfect and have our little flaws as well :)

This is not meant to anyone personally or to offend...

Most respectfully;

Dana
 

Arkteia

Ideal_Rock
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I slept on it and decided to post again, because, serously,if it is IF, it should not have an eye-visible inclusion right in the middle... And it is a 2-ct, not a 5-ct stone so it is more noticeable.

It seems, however, that you like the stone to a degree that you are thinking about the setting... am I right in assuming that you would set it right now if there were no inclusion?

If you love the color, and the price is right for you, I'd keep it for a few days, play around with it, look at it and see how much this inclusion irritates you. See if mentally you always get back to it as a flaw... if with time you get used to the inclusion, then just keep the stone and forget about it. If you are still thinking about the inclusion, irregardless of the beauty of the stone (and it is VERY beautiful in your pictures), I'd return it.

Or perhaps you could contact Tan and ask if you could keep the stone for a longer time? See if he'd be flexible in this situation? Then put it in a temporary setting and look at it for a while? See how often you turn your hand at such an angle that the inclusion is seen?

I just put myself in your shoes - the price is not something I can not afford, but investing in a setting and then not wearing the ring would be a huge waste of money...
 

kt

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Messages
286
Chrono - yes, it's 1.94 cts

I appreciate everyone's input and it certainly is interesting. I'm not positive yet if it bothers me or not...I suppose my question is, will there pretty much ALWAYS be some sort of inclusion in a stone of this type, and is this a relatively small one? if I were to get a bunch of other stones, assuming I like the color of them as much as this one, can I pretty much expect all of them to have some type of visible inclusion, at the price I want to pay (this is pretty much the upper limit of what I wanted to spend on the stone itself).

In other words, is this type of tiny bubble pretty much expected in stones of this type (spinel) at this price point for the color I got?
 

chrono

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I think the price is good, considering the colour and size of the spinel. Also, it sounds like the inclusion probably will not be noticeable most of the time (unless you tilt it just right and go looking for it). Spinels are generally very clean gemstones but I've also seen plenty of included ones. In short, it all depends.

Crasru,
I believe this stone is from Litnon.
 

Pandora II

Ideal_Rock
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Aug 3, 2006
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Quick comment from me as am away and not much internet access. Anyway, coloured stones are graded for clarity with the naked eye and so expect what you would expect to see in a diamond with a loupe. Therefore a vvs will probably be very tiny but eye visible. You then need to consider whether a stone is type I, II or III. Unless a stone is described as eyeclean or IF then expect to see something in the way of inclusions.
Or at least that is how I expect things to be.
Back in a couple of weeks!
Px
 

chrono

Super_Ideal_Rock
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kt

Shiny_Rock
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Jan 30, 2003
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286
Crasru - I think you are right, i'll hang onto it a few days and see how I feel. I just put it in the bezel cup again while sitting in my office under fluorescents and the stone was a fireball - and then I couldn't see the inclusion! It's just a great color and I can't even say i'm a huge "pink" person to begin with, so that says a lot. I AM leaning towards keeping it, but as you said, I want to make sure that it's something i'll wear/be comfortable with, esp. after you add the expense of the ring and setting it.

Thank you so much for all your input on this...I actually spoke to Dana and he is a total sweetheart and also gave me some great perspective on colored stones and what to look for, so i do appreciate everyone's help given i'm such a newbie in this arena. I'll keep you posted how this nets out! :wavey:
 

pregcurious

Ideal_Rock
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Mar 18, 2009
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For VVS, I would expect a stone to be more than eye clean. If it bothers you, it might be better to return it. Overall, it looks like a beautiful stone.
 

marymm

Ideal_Rock
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Here's another possible approach - if it were me, and I'm debating whether to keep or return the stone, I would figure out about how many inches away from the stone I am before I am able to see the bubble - if it is 6 inches away or more, I would contact the vendor to let him know although the stone was described as VVS-IF, at x inches I can clearly see a bubble from the side and also sometimes from the top - I'd let him know based on the posted description I thought I was purchasing a stone with no visible inclusions and paid the price accordingly. Now that the stone is VS, I would be happy to keep the stone if the price was reduced to reflect the VS clarity.... and see what he might say. My expectation for a stone described as VVS to IF is that I really won't be able to see anything unless possibly I have it 1-2 inches away from my eyeball.

I have found that, for me, a pretty color pink, sparkly and firey, is not so easy to find - but still you don't want to overpay. You may feel more comfortable about keeping this stone if the vendor is amenable to adjusting the price to reflect its VS clarity.
 

kt

Shiny_Rock
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Jan 30, 2003
Messages
286
Augh, I managed to take a pic and got the inclusion but I can't post from my iPad! Will do so tomorrow.....
 

kt

Shiny_Rock
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Jan 30, 2003
Messages
286
Here are some pics i managed to capture (the iphone does continue to amaze me....!)...you can see the little speck fairly clearly in these. But the color is SO amazing!!!!!!

speck.jpg

speck 2.jpg
 

chrono

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Ah, I see that white dot, smack dab in the middle of the stone.
 

kt

Shiny_Rock
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Jan 30, 2003
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286
EXACTLY!!! So i'm trying to see how much it bothers me, especially because when I put it in the bezel cup it's kind of hard to see. I do wish it was off to the side, though! :rolleyes: The ring design, though, is not a full bezel - it's an open pavilion so i'm not sure how that would affect the look. I'm calling the vendor today to see if he's got something comparable.
 

Aoife

Brilliant_Rock
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Jun 23, 2010
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kt, I can see why you are struggling with this, because it is a very lovely stone, and the inclusion is right in a more noticeable place. On the other hand, for a spinel that is slightly under 2ct, I think it's a reasonable price, especially since the color is so pretty. If it were me, if I had paid more, I would be less inclined to keep it, but since the older I get, the less I am able to see inclusions, I'd probably keep it, set it, and enjoy it for what it is.

Frankly, I always take vvs, vs, and even "eye-clean" with a grain of salt, except from a few vendors who I know from experience describe clarity the same way I do.

I'm looking forward to hearing what you decide.
 

LD

Ideal_Rock
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Having an inclusion like a bubble in a spinel is reassuring because it means it's probably what it's sold to you as. As Pandora said, VVS in coloured gemstone world is different from VVS in diamonds. Also, some gemstones are EXPECTED to have inclusions.

You love the colour.
You paid a fair price.
The gemstone doesn't darken in a bezel.

How easy will it be to find another? Probably fairly difficult for the price/colour IF you could find it again.

What you may find is you'll zone the inclusion out over time and will stop noticing it. I have a diamond with a tiny black spec. I hardly ever see it anymore because I love the diamond!

This page gives an explanation of what the clarity grade should be for each Type of Gemstone. Spinel is a Type 2 gemstone,

http://www.multicolour.com/catalogue/source/cog.html
 

kt

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Messages
286
I agree with you, LD! I called the vendor, who was absolutely lovely and basically he's searching to see if there is anything comparable I can consider...and I'm thinking about it this weekend. I've been running around the house and outside with it in it's ziploc baggy trying it out at different angles and different lights. I am having a hard timing giving up the color, and the price was awesome so I'm going to see where he nets out. Keeping fingers crossed!!
 

LD

Ideal_Rock
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KT we were typing at the same time! I've included some information above that may help but basically a Spinel is a Type 2 gemstone (ie a gemstone where some inclusions are expected) and as such, inclusions listed as VVS should be minor. That makes the description from the vendor correct.
 
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