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Just curious, but why don’t we see a lot of Q-R, S-T, & U-V stones?

denverappraiser

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It's not a plot. Stores with sense stock what sells well for them. Websites are the same. Most jewelers can get lower colored diamonds for you if you want but they don't want to tie up their inventory money with them. I don't blame them. They only have so much money to go around and it doesn't go all that far in this business. They want to use it for other things.
 

AV_

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@Rockdiamond

I assume that a GIA Y-Z H&A round [not that such a travesty existed!], could have been a Fancy Light Yellow [or some color with a five word name] cushion cut for color; but what of a GIA S-T (within GIA 'Very Light' N-R) or, or O-P (within GIA 'Light' S-Z) ? At what grade is it no longer worth wondering if any remotely acceptable cut could possibly cross into the Fancy Light territory?
 
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Rockdiamond

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@AV_
There's a story which I've related here a few times...
We had a very cool, round-ish CB. It was about M color (iirc)
During the final stages of production ( we were making a ring) the laser engraver slipped, and the culet was damaged.
It looked like a bomb had gone off in the stone.
Now, a small girdle chip ( even a large one) can be easily fixed on a cushion.
But this sort of damage required an entire recut.
I asked a good buddy who specialized in cutting yellows to recut.
He cut to radiant, and we got....
Fancy Yellow!!!!
 

cflutist

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@Rockdiamond

So are radiants really popular with fancy yellows?

Had I known, it would have saved me some headache. I told @Wink that I wanted rounds and he and his team were having trouble sourcing that parcel for my bracelet. It took them several months but Paul/Lieve finally found a parcel of RB FIYs in Antwerp. I also saw a similar parcel of radiants at Leibish that was less money.

So is it fair to say Fancy yellows in Rounds are rare?
 

Rockdiamond

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So is it fair to say Fancy yellows in Rounds are rare?
Absolutely.
For all the reasons we've outlined here. Round diamonds do a bad job of transmitting a yellow color.
We do have access to rounds, but cushions and radiants are at least 10 times more plentiful. In smaller sizes radiant and cushion are about equally easy to find.
In larger stones- say over .50cts cushions are more plentiful than radiant cuts
 

distracts

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It's not a plot. Stores with sense stock what sells well for them. Websites are the same. Most jewelers can get lower colored diamonds for you if you want but they don't want to tie up their inventory money with them. I don't blame them. They only have so much money to go around and it doesn't go all that far in this business. They want to use it for other things.
But I would think with online drop-shipping listings there’s not much extra expense associated with listing them, or for the seller with photographing them? They can’t sell if people can’t even find them.
 

Rockdiamond

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It's not a plot
Neil- I guess you haven't been watching the news.....so you haven't heard about "Cape-Gate".....lol!!!

Seriously- another shape heavily impacted by all this are the various step cuts.
Speaking of my buddy who recut the stone to Fancy Yellow for us...
He called me up one day and asked me to come by and eyeball a stone.
It was a 5ct Y-Z Rectangular Emerald Cut- a super clean stone VVS I think....
I almost fell on the floor- I adore step cuts myself.,...
He refused to sell it to me....because he saw the Fancy Yellow Radiant Cut 4.50ct hiding inside the Emerald cut
Indeed- after the recut, he had a Fancy Yellow Radiant, worth about 50% more than the 5ct Emerald cut......
 

Rockdiamond

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But I would think with online drop-shipping listings there’s not much extra expense associated with listing them, or for the seller with photographing them? They can’t sell if people can’t even find them.
This is likely resulting from software/ programming issues.
Changing some of the largest websites to include all the colors would be likely cost much more than they anticipate earning off these stones.
 

Karl_K

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But I would think with online drop-shipping listings there’s not much extra expense associated with listing them, or for the seller with photographing them? They can’t sell if people can’t even find them.
Since I worked with David for a while some may consider this to be promotion for my ex-employer.
I held this belief long before working for him based on my own experience.
There is a huge range of appearance that is not reflected in the color grade/report that I have a hard time recommending them without someone to prescreen them in person unless you are willing to deal with the hassle of possible returns. Even with typical pictures/video this is true in my opinion.
For example when I was first learning about diamonds I say an absolutely awful L(gia report) colored stone that turned me off them for a while until I saw some more of them that were awesome.
Come to find out I like a nice examples a lot.
I have also seen s-t stones both browns and yellows that I would buy in a heartbeat and some that I would not consider at all.
I am highly skeptical of by pictures being ably to tell them apart but it was hugly apparent to the eye.
 

hobbitfancier55

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I was looking at a thread admiring their U-V diamond when it dawned on me that these just aren’t super common. Not just in terms of people who own them, but I noticed not many are offered for sale.

Why is this? Are roughs that would be in that range if cut into one shape cut another way? Are they just not common?
On the one hand it kills me that more people don’t see how gorgeous they are, but on the other hand I’m glad because they’re so affordable!

I think they’re just not known about by your everyday diamond consumer. Your regular Joe going to the local chain jeweler isn’t even going to know they exist, because they don’t even offer them there. They’re going to think “white” diamonds or colored diamonds without realizing the spread in between.

For someone who loves yellow diamonds, they’re a dream. The savings you get with a U-V, W-X, or Y-Z compared to a FLY is enormous. And the difference between a Y-Z and FLY is (to my pocketbook at least) often minuscule.

I’ve been drooling over this Q-R Radiant at DbL for months. Cant believe it hasn’t been snapped up. Simply scrumptious!

 

Alexiszoe

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Seriously- another shape heavily impacted by all this are the various step cuts.
Speaking of my buddy who recut the stone to Fancy Yellow for us...
He called me up one day and asked me to come by and eyeball a stone.
It was a 5ct Y-Z Rectangular Emerald Cut- a super clean stone VVS I think....
I almost fell on the floor- I adore step cuts myself.,...
He refused to sell it to me....because he saw the Fancy Yellow Radiant Cut 4.50ct hiding inside the Emerald cut
Indeed- after the recut, he had a Fancy Yellow Radiant, worth about 50% more than the 5ct Emerald cut......
@Rockdiamond, does this mean that step cuts, similar to rounds, are generally poorer at concentrating color - and are more likely to face up white, assuming it is well cut?

I know the popular opinion has been step cuts is prone to showing color, but I have also seen I/J step cuts that face up pretty white (no fluorescence), so it's somewhat baffling.
 

Rockdiamond

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Such an interesting question @Alexiszoe
The question- does the fact a stone does not concentrate body color necessarily mean it will hide body color?
I will do some thinking on this and add some thoughts today.
 

Karl_K

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@Rockdiamond, does this mean that step cuts, similar to rounds, are generally poorer at concentrating color - and are more likely to face up white, assuming it is well cut?

I know the popular opinion has been step cuts is prone to showing color, but I have also seen I/J step cuts that face up pretty white (no fluorescence), so it's somewhat baffling.
Both same virtual rough, so at the same time a step cut can show less color in some areas and more in others.
There are some tricks to make it concentrate less but the biggest reason you dont see a lot of fancy color EC cuts is its really hard to get even color accross the stone face up.
rb.jpg eccolor.jpg
 

diamondseeker2006

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There are a large number of August Vintage stones around PS in low colors. Jon has always stocked them since many people consider the lower colors more favorably in antique cut stones. I am fortunate to have an O color AVR and a Y-Z AVC. But I wouldn't want a color that low for my engagement ring, and as others have said, most people want colorless to near colorless for their main diamond jewelry and that's what jewelers stock.
 

John Pollard

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@John PollardSo why did CBI decide to cut my 2.31 Q-VVS2 with the same precision as my other 4 CBIs?
Congrats awesome stone. Sir John can correct me but..... I am just guessing the 2.31ct weight is probably a big part of why they could cut it and they may have got a good deal on the rough. Over the years Paul has tried many different things.
My apologies for missing the question. Thanks @Karl_K for catching it. No correction needed and I can elaborate.

@cflutist it was not a decision. We have only one cutting target. The challenge for us is winning rough material. To explain further, traditional diamond producers change their cutting plans toward every piece of rough to maximize yield/profitability. We take the opposite approach. We apply our performance target to any piece of rough and bid according to its finished weight when tuned to that target. This is why you rarely see us with 0.70-0.99 ct options, or just under higher key weights like 2.00, 3.00. Other producers are bidding against us for the same crystals. By shifting to steeper angles they can keep enough yield to push the finished diamond over the next key weight, thus outbidding us.

For your 2.31 Q color, as @Karl_K intuited, steeper angles wouldn't have reached another key weight. If another producer could have coaxed FLY out of it we may have been outbid but that didn't happen. I wager the high clarity helped it come into our hands too. High-low clarity-color combos are sometimes hard to move in the mainstream.
 

Dancing Fire

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This is why you rarely see us with 0.70-0.99 ct options, or just under higher key weights like 2.00, 3.00. Other producers are bidding against us for the same crystals. By shifting to steeper angles they can keep enough yield to push the finished diamond over the next key weight, thus outbidding us.
@John Pollard. Remember that you, Paul and Wink promised I'll be the first person to be sporting a 2.99 ct CBI...:dance: :bigsmile:
 

cflutist

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@John Pollard. Remember that you, Paul and Wink promised I'll be the first person to be sporting a 2.99 ct CBI...:dance: :bigsmile:
@John Pollard thanks for the explanation. I always wanted to own a VVS diamond and the Q color made it very affordable for me. The fact that it is a CBI is a big bonus.

@Dancing Fire there is a very delicious 3.75 D-VVS2 CBI available currently but we would need to move to a state with no sales tax first
 

mrs-b

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I recently bought an S-T emerald cut. I specifically wanted something very warm, since owning an R colored AV cushion cut. I wanted it as warm as I could get it, so long as it didn't have grey tones.

I do think a lot comes down to the setting when bringing out the beauty of these stones, and they do't necessarily lend themselves to the typical prong set solitaire, which some people can find daunting. Personally, I LOVE the uber-warm colors and am looking forward to seeing what I can achieve with mine. I'll be trying to create a golden glow using any canny methods possible and need something this warm to get the effect I love. Why more people don't pursue this route, I have no idea; I love the look of my F colored 3 stone, but you can't go past something that reminds you of a pale sunrise! :)

4.07ct EC.jpeg
 

Rockdiamond

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Cool stone @mrs-b !!!

I must assume the seller added the label claiming the stone faces like a K-L...
It looks quite more yellow than that to me.....
There are indeed well cut K color emerald cuts that face up more like colorless stones
 

distracts

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A few weeks ago someone posted that Brilliance.com has lower alphabet color diamonds and I have looked through them a few times.

This is a particular favorite, because the cutting is so... concerning.... someone was clearly trying to do SOMETHING here, but what!??!?

Screen Shot 2020-01-17 at 1.37.51 PM.png

Depth 77.4%


However if anyone wants a 1 ct diamond for only $835, there it is! Of course the face-up size is only 5.7mm, but you've gotta sacrifice something I guess.
 

caolsen

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Here is my new U-V OMC, I love warmer stones and this stone and setting hits so many of my sweet spots.

I think of the four C’s, color is the one area where the traditional Brick and Mortars have made an exclusivity plan. Perhaps a buyer can’t buy a 2 carat center stone (carat being an area where one can be exclusive) but they can be exclusive in color and color is easy to understand.

Many folks sell, and folks by, that a higher color (just listen to that word - ‘higher’), is more exclusive.

There are so many cultural connotations with purity and ‘whiteness’ that I won’t even go into as well...

8981D6E3-28FC-4D58-9F3C-C948743C0A95.png
 

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distracts

Ideal_Rock
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most people want colorless to near colorless for their main diamond jewelry and that's what jewelers stock.
But if they haven't even SEEN lower alphabet colors, how do they KNOW that's what they want? They only know it because it's what they've been told. Many of us have had the reaction of going "gosh, that's actually very pretty!" when seeing lower colored diamonds in person, because we were primed to think we dislike them. It's kind of a self-reinforcing cycle.
 

Lucy-In-The-Sky

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But if they haven't even SEEN lower alphabet colors, how do they KNOW that's what they want? They only know it because it's what they've been told. Many of us have had the reaction of going "gosh, that's actually very pretty!" when seeing lower colored diamonds in person, because we were primed to think we dislike them. It's kind of a self-reinforcing cycle.
Exactly! I can't tell you how many people are shocked to learn my e-ring is a Q/R, after they've admired it. It's like they have this expectation that a diamond lower in the alphabet is going to be the color of lemon-lime Gatorade!

Of cours
 

Rockdiamond

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But it's also true that the majority of people when picturing a "diamond ring" think of a colorless RBC, set into a four prong solitaire setting.
That's ok for me, I've never been swayed by what the majority think.

Shoot- even diamond dealers themselves refer to stones as W X Y Z....I mean, c'mon we're speaking of specific grades.
 

Rockdiamond

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Here is my new U-V OMC, I love warmer stones and this stone and setting hits so many of my sweet spots.

I think of the four C’s, color is the one area where the traditional Brick and Mortars have made an exclusivity plan. Perhaps a buyer can’t buy a 2 carat center stone (carat being an area where one can be exclusive) but they can be exclusive in color and color is easy to understand.

Many folks sell, and folks by, that a higher color (just listen to that word - ‘higher’), is more exclusive.

There are so many cultural connotations with purity and ‘whiteness’ that I won’t even go into as well...

8981D6E3-28FC-4D58-9F3C-C948743C0A95.png
LOVELY!!!!

Just curious, was the diamond graded by GIA?
 

distracts

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Hey @Rockdiamond or someone - actually, I don't know why some low color diamonds have a range grade like W-X rather than just one - can someone explain that?
 

Rockdiamond

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Two reasons I can think of....
One reason is that we're trying to calibrate the presence of color. Whereas in the higher colorless grades, it's calibrating the absence of color. Much easier, and more precise declaring how little color a diamond has as opposed to how much.
Second- the color grades increase in "width" as we get darker.
That is to say, the difference between a D and an E is exponentially smaller than the difference between a J and a K.
This grade widening continues and expands as we go down the scale.
 

caolsen

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Nope - I feel pretty good about Alex Parks’ assessment of the stone (any my own, I had seen it in person in NYC this fall but did not pull the trigger then) nor did I feel like paying GIA to call it a badly cut modified round. If I ever sell it, I might get a certificate.

I think of stones as pieces of art - If one comes with a cert great, but much like art I tend to put my faith in vendors and relationships with them over the certificate.

Now, that said - if I don’t know a seller, have no basis from which to trust their opinions and expertise, or the rock is big $, I’ll get a certificate to not get screwed and sold a CZ.

But with old stones and GIA’s frankly stingy as hell parameters for antique cuts, I don’t see the point.

LOVELY!!!!

Just curious, was the diamond graded by GIA?
 
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winnietucker

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Here is my new U-V OMC, I love warmer stones and this stone and setting hits so many of my sweet spots.

I think of the four C’s, color is the one area where the traditional Brick and Mortars have made an exclusivity plan. Perhaps a buyer can’t buy a 2 carat center stone (carat being an area where one can be exclusive) but they can be exclusive in color and color is easy to understand.

Many folks sell, and folks by, that a higher color (just listen to that word - ‘higher’), is more exclusive.

There are so many cultural connotations with purity and ‘whiteness’ that I won’t even go into as well...

8981D6E3-28FC-4D58-9F3C-C948743C0A95.png
It was your ring that made me curious! I was admiring what a lovely yellow it is. :))
 
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