James Allen ring needs recoating after 8 months

[smc7277]

with out re reading the entire thread, how often do you need to have it done? Yearly? thanks

 

[slg47]

I get my platinum ring polished for $15. If there is a particularly large dent it is $25.

some people like the look of the patina...basically it is just little tiny scratches that make the overall ring look less shiny. With platinum when it scratches you do not lose metal, it is just displaced.

I read somewhere that it is not good to get plat polished too often? I am curious as to how often it should be polished.

 

[minmin001]

I realize I have one last thing to say and I hope Matt & Amanda are still checking this thread.

Amanda, your pic of your rings show a LOT of wear on the prongs. Your wedding band is already doing very noticeable damage to the prongs holding your diamond. I know that nowadays everyone likes to have a wedding set, have a matching band to wear with the e-ring, but any wedding band with exposed edges of diamonds is a serious durability risk to the other ring, long term. If your e-ring is already showing the prongs being chewed by the wedder, you really need to get a spacer or something- it won't take a heck of a lot more time before you'll be pulling your hair out over the damage to the prongs IMO.

A spacer is a really thin plain band that fits between the two, keeping the edges of the diamonds away from each other. You can find ones that are ~1mm on Etsy for not too much, for example this one: http://www.etsy.com/listing/55561563/one-single-14k-solid-yellow-gold-beaded I know there are vendors that have plain ones too for about that, but I don't have any links saved unfortunately.

Alternatively you can wear the rings the way it was done for decades at the beginning of the 20th century: the e-ring on your right, and your wedding band on the left. Or get a plain band for the left, put the e-ring with it, and move the diamond wedding band to your right.

Sorry, I know that everyone sells "sets" like this and people assume it's just fine to wear them together, but... unfortunately, the reality is, sometimes it isn't quite the case.

Not to give you another headache, but I really didn't want to just let it pass unremarked. Sorry!

I already suggested that, but don't think they even cared to notice it. (too busy focus on other things I suppose)

 

[TheDoctor]

Rhodium plating is so depended upon by many North American jewellers that you are accepting a rhodium finish with any white gold product. This is problematic, as most do not disclose this "treatment" in advance.
There are new formulas for white gold that are truly white, and available to all of these jewellers...but their default is rhodium. It's one of those "old dog, new trick" scenarios.

Imagine if the paint came off your car in 6 months.
...and the manufacturer told you that its normal, just bring it in and we'll paint it again...and you had to do without it for 2 weeks and pay a fee.

 

[kenny]

Rhodium plating is so depended upon by many North American jewellers that you are accepting a rhodium finish with any white gold product. This is problematic, as most do not disclose this "treatment" in advance.
There are new formulas for white gold that are truly white, and available to all of these jewellers...but their default is rhodium. It's one of those "old dog, new trick" scenarios.

Imagine if the paint came off your car in 6 months.
...and the manufacturer told you that its normal, just bring it in and we'll paint it again...and you had to do without it for 2 weeks and pay a fee.

Hi Doctor.
I just read your website touting rhodium-free white gold.
EVERYONE can offer that, just don't plate it.

snip:

We utilize only the finest of precious metals. High-purity rhodium-free white gold which is as hard as stainless steel, platinum, palladium, and 18, 20, 22, or 24 karat gold. It is very rare for an item to need repair, even after 10 or more years of daily wear. Our products are engineered to last much longer than any other item your money can buy, and the cost per day of use can easily be trivial by today's standards.

Sourced in Canada, proudly designed and made by hand in Edmonton. Your Canadian dollar goes much farther here than it will shopping online at American jewellery websites, and as a bonus, we promise you a totally cheese-free experience.

End Snip

Does it mean the alloy of WG you are referring to is the same color as rhodium, without the rhodium?
What are the metals and ratios/recipe of this WG you speak of? or is this alloy a proprietary patent to your company?

Can you post pics of your rhodium-free WG next to some nice rhodium-plated WG pieces?

BTW, what is a cheese-free experience?
What is cheese?
You are free to answer here but may I recommend you also edit your website?
If I am am uncertain what you mean by cheese other readers, too polite to ask, will also wonder.
Often terms that are obvious slang to us are Greek to others.
This the Internet age, and you are reaching the world now.

And since the Internet reaches the world, not just Canada, will my American dollar go farther too?
IOW, I'm not sure what you are getting at.
I'm sure the price of precious metals is not cheaper in Canada.
I doubt you work cheaper.
So what exactly does this mean?

 

[TheDoctor]

Then I got my wedding ring set in un-plated white gold. No need for plating, ever. Problem solved.

This is the crux of the argument. You can have white gold without the rhodium, in the correct alloy formulation. The problem is that the maunufacturers tend to go with what they know...alloys that are soft enough to not crush stones when the benchie is applying moderate force to a setting.

Jewellery manufacturing s a knowledge-based profession, but the bottom-line mentality exhibited when mounts are chosen has eroded the process of production. The less expensive the setting, the more likely you are to experience negativity.

 

[kenny]

Then I got my wedding ring set in un-plated white gold. No need for plating, ever. Problem solved.

This is the crux of the argument. You can have white gold without the rhodium, in the correct alloy formulation. The problem is that the maunufacturers tend to go with what they know...alloys that are soft enough to not crush stones when the benchie is applying moderate force to a setting.

Jewellery manufacturing s a knowledge-based profession, but the bottom-line mentality exhibited when mounts are chosen has eroded the process of production. The less expensive the setting, the more likely you are to experience negativity.

So more expensive is always better?

The extra money never goes to higher rent, insurance, higher operating expenses, poor management, more expensive but not necessarily better employees, higher profit?
You don't always get what you pay for; sometimes you get less.

How's a customer to know?

 

[TheDoctor]

Dude, i may wind up in trouble over this, but I'm used to trouble in online forums.

For the record....I buy my pre-mixed alloy from a company called Argen, located in San Diego.
I used to buy it from a Canadian refiner but...they changed their formula and eventually their owner and the rest is history.
The 19 karat is over 80% pure yellow gold with a mixture of other elements that bleach it white...platinum-white.
Any American manufacturer can buy this stuff, but they offer only their regular beige or yellowish mix with rhodium because that is how they have always done things. I really don't get it. Our job is to look after our clients but many of us just want to sell the diamonds and get them onto the customer's hand....and enjoy the money.

 

[kenny]

Dude, i may wind up in trouble over this, but I'm used to trouble in online forums.

For the record....I buy my pre-mixed alloy from a company called Argen, located in San Diego.
I used to buy it from a Canadian refiner but...they changed their formula and eventually their owner and the rest is history.
The 19 karat is over 80% pure yellow gold with a mixture of other elements that bleach it white...platinum-white.
Any American manufacturer can buy this stuff, but they offer only their regular beige or yellowish mix with rhodium because that is how they have always done things.
I really don't get it
Our job is to look after our clients but many of us just want to sell the diamonds and get them onto the customer's hand....and enjoy the money.

Thanks.

Hey JA, WF, BGD, Bluenile, GOG and everyone else on the planet who sells rhodium-plated WG . . . start buying this whiter WG alloy and stop plating your WG and avoid the embarrassment, negative publicity, pissed off customers and loss of funds that JA had to go through in this thread.

BTW Doctor, I think everyone including you enjoys money.

BTW, is it the same price as the WG alloys that need to be plate?
Does it require investment in equipment?
Are there any other downsides for the makers, financial or otherwise, to switchg to Argen's alloy?

Even if it is more costly couldn't the jewelers tell customers it's cheaper in the long run because it never needs redipping?

 

[TheDoctor]

Then I got my wedding ring set in un-plated white gold. No need for plating, ever. Problem solved.

This is the crux of the argument. You can have white gold without the rhodium, in the correct alloy formulation. The problem is that the maunufacturers tend to go with what they know...alloys that are soft enough to not crush stones when the benchie is applying moderate force to a setting.

Jewellery manufacturing s a knowledge-based profession, but the bottom-line mentality exhibited when mounts are chosen has eroded the process of production. The less expensive the setting, the more likely you are to experience negativity.

So more expensive is always better?

The extra money never goes to higher rent, insurance, higher operating expenses, poor management, more expensive but not necessarily better employees, higher profit?
You don't always get what you pay for; sometimes you get less.

How's a customer to know?

Sorry, I must confess that your reply is confusing to me. More expensive is seldom better, but bottom-line is always a problem.
I have met every kind of jeweller, from wannabees to nearly dead from overwork, and I'll say this...for many, the money is first, the quality is often second or third.
The best ones will always have a beaten path to their door, and not just with new clients crushing the lawn. When people return, time and time again, not with repairs and replating issues but wanting something else...that is a credible business. I worked for some of those kind of people, and some of them didn't give a damn about money.
The money found them every time, though. it's a near miracle.
That is basic Keynesian economics...you vote with your dollars for the types of businesses you like.

 

[TheDoctor]

Kenny, my comments are nothing new here. Often lost in the void.
The website comment about cheese refers to the local competitors who sell fluff and nonsense packaged in pink with undereducated salespeople pitching sparkle and promising the best deal ever. That's as cheesy as it gets. PriceScopers are all to familar with this approach to ridding you and thousands of others of your money.

 

[stone-cold11]

Dude, i may wind up in trouble over this, but I'm used to trouble in online forums.

For the record....I buy my pre-mixed alloy from a company called Argen, located in San Diego.
I used to buy it from a Canadian refiner but...they changed their formula and eventually their owner and the rest is history.
The 19 karat is over 80% pure yellow gold with a mixture of other elements that bleach it white...platinum-white.
Any American manufacturer can buy this stuff, but they offer only their regular beige or yellowish mix with rhodium because that is how they have always done things. I really don't get it. Our job is to look after our clients but many of us just want to sell the diamonds and get them onto the customer's hand....and enjoy the money.

Can you specify the alloy type, name of the WG you bought from Argen?

Edt:
You mean the 19kt white?

Do you have a comparison shot between that and a platinum?

 

[kenny]

Then I got my wedding ring set in un-plated white gold. No need for plating, ever. Problem solved.

This is the crux of the argument. You can have white gold without the rhodium, in the correct alloy formulation. The problem is that the maunufacturers tend to go with what they know...alloys that are soft enough to not crush stones when the benchie is applying moderate force to a setting.

Jewellery manufacturing s a knowledge-based profession, but the bottom-line mentality exhibited when mounts are chosen has eroded the process of production. The less expensive the setting, the more likely you are to experience negativity.

So more expensive is always better?

The extra money never goes to higher rent, insurance, higher operating expenses, poor management, more expensive but not necessarily better employees, higher profit?
You don't always get what you pay for; sometimes you get less.

How's a customer to know?

Sorry, I must confess that your reply is confusing to me. More expensive is seldom better, but bottom-line is always a problem.
I have met every kind of jeweller, from wannabees to nearly dead from overwork, and I'll say this...for many, the money is first, the quality is often second or third.
The best ones will always have a beaten path to their door, and not just with new clients crushing the lawn. When people return, time and time again, not with repairs and replating issues but wanting something else...that is a credible business. I worked for some of those kind of people, and some of them didn't give a damn about money.
The money found them every time, though. it's a near miracle.
That is basic Keynesian economics...you vote with your dollars for the types of businesses you like.

Let me simplify.

It sounds like you are saying you care about quality while your competitors only care about money.
Vendors bad-mouthing competitors is against PS rules.

So does this mean that allow is more expensive?
How much more?
Enough to justify never having to rhodium plate?

 

[FrekeChild]

I want to commend Jim Schultz for his behavior on this thread. Bravo sir!

(And I have to say that there are pretty regular discussions on metals and their positives and negatives here on PS. It only takes a quick search to bring up many. Also, I know from experience posting, as well as my time here, that if a customer is wavering between metal types, a PSer will almost always pipe in with the pluses and minuses of any and all metals. If you venture into CS, you'll find that colors of gold, 14kt, 18kt, 22kt, 24kt yellow, white, green, red, pink, etc are regularly discussed as to what would look best with stone color. PS really is a plethora of information about all things jewelry related.)

 

[FrekeChild]

Let me simplify.

It sounds like you are saying you care about quality while your competitors only care about money.
Vendors bad-mouthing competitors is against PS rules.

Sounds like a mere criticism of humanity in general, of jewelers more specifically.

I happen to agree with what he said. In general it's human nature to care more about profit for yourself at the detriment of quality for the customer.

(I spent part of my day watching a documentary on for-profit colleges...don't get me started!)

 

[TristanC]

@TheDoctor: to be brutally frank, I think Kenny's posts sound fractious, but I'm very sure you know why. There are a large number of suppositions in the posts. Whilst the most contentious generalizations were mostly Quoted from your website and not stated by you, they have been voiced in a thread specifically talking about metal comparisons.

I would also ask you to post the same few basic facts either here or on a new thread about the alloys your site offers and a comparison to widely available white gold alloys. Please realize that I read hyperbole on PS daily - heck, I'm the origin of a lot of it myself. But I have nothing to gain financially from what I say, and I never intend to mislead anyone. I hope your posts (and what was quoted though not by you) from your website were not hasty over generalizations with no factual basis. If this superior white metal alloy DOES exist at a price point good for all PSers, I would be proud that we discovered it here.

 

[Gypsy]

with out re reading the entire thread, how often do you need to have it done? Yearly? thanks

I could go a year, but I prefer every 6-8 months. My setting looks best at high polish.

 

[centralsquare]

I want to commend Jim Schultz for his behavior on this thread. Bravo sir!

A lot can be said about this whole thread but I think that is one statement that most can agree on.

I don't have WG, but I have to say that all of the literature on platinum indicates that the scratches it gets evolves into a "patina" that somehow implies it is supposed to look. I don't like it and take them in every 6 months. I usually have marks on them by the time I get home!

 

[TheDoctor]

@TheDoctor: to be brutally frank, I think Kenny's posts sound fractious, but I'm very sure you know why. There are a large number of suppositions in the posts. Whilst the most contentious generalizations were mostly Quoted from your website and not stated by you, they have been voiced in a thread specifically talking about metal comparisons.

I would also ask you to post the same few basic facts either here or on a new thread about the alloys your site offers and a comparison to widely available white gold alloys. Please realize that I read hyperbole on PS daily - heck, I'm the origin of a lot of it myself. But I have nothing to gain financially from what I say, and I never intend to mislead anyone. I hope your posts (and what was quoted though not by you) from your website were not hasty over generalizations with no factual basis. If this superior white metal alloy DOES exist at a price point good for all PSers, I would be proud that we discovered it here.

My site offers nothing, Tristan. We aren't "vendors". The main reason I began posting on PS was to provide information as a trade-based consultant..mostly a critic of backward thinking and careless practice. I am a consumer advocate, and this is a consumer website offering a host of information, some credible, some ludicrous. Consumers offering advice to consumers is really quite cool, but when the info is guesswork and hearsay it requires a fact-based correction.
My main argument against rhodium plating is that, first and foremost, it is a pain to sustain. Secondly, the failure of rhodium under normal wear conditions is commonly referred to, on this very website, as "normal".
Thirdly, the people in charge of providing this repetitive service are exposed to cyanide vapour on a daily basis, and often without proper ventilation. One of my mentors succumbed to an early death from cancer, and I am adamant about the fact that our industry is grossly under-monitored under hazardous goods regulations.The plating solutions are all toxic, but the only time this seems to be an issue is during shipping of said plating solutions. Once they arrive at the workshop, its open season on the workers. The cheap help are the ones I worry about...they can't read a materials safety data form and become accustomed to the flavour of cyanide.

Modern white alloys are being offered through familiar American alloy manufacturers( Hoover and Strong, Rio Grande, Argen) but so many jewellery producers choose to blend their own alloys for the cost saving. Scott Kay has a line they make in 19 karat white gold but its not the same 19 karat as the one we are familar with...and is much softer, still coated in rhodium but the colour of the base alloy isn't bad... That is where definitions presented to readers here can be misunderstood. 18 karat isn't 18 karat equivalent if the alloying is done using different formulas. 18 karat with palladium as the whitening agent is typically brownish, and very soft.
Logic dictates that no matter what the specific metal alloy configuration is, if you coat it with rhodium, it doesn't matter a hill of beans what the base metal is. Might as well be 9 karat, or stainless steel. Ugly underneath rhodium is the most negative aspect of the issue, methinks. Soft gold-based alloys won't hold a plating because they bend so ealily, and the rhodium doesn't bend or even flex. It cracks and falls off on a microscopic level, revealing the true colour of the base metal with rapidity.
I'm sorry, I shouldn't post photos of our finished pieces because someone wil lsurely object on the basis of self-promotion but most of you have seen our photos from our web portfolio. They are white. They are hard (Vickers 240, google that) and the prongs and pave and bezels last beyond 18 years, the length of time of my usage of this commercial alloy....so probably a lot longer.

 

[TheDoctor]

Dude, i may wind up in trouble over this, but I'm used to trouble in online forums.

For the record....I buy my pre-mixed alloy from a company called Argen, located in San Diego.
I used to buy it from a Canadian refiner but...they changed their formula and eventually their owner and the rest is history.
The 19 karat is over 80% pure yellow gold with a mixture of other elements that bleach it white...platinum-white.
Any American manufacturer can buy this stuff, but they offer only their regular beige or yellowish mix with rhodium because that is how they have always done things. I really don't get it. Our job is to look after our clients but many of us just want to sell the diamonds and get them onto the customer's hand....and enjoy the money.

Can you specify the alloy type, name of the WG you bought from Argen?

Edt:
You mean the 19kt white?

Do you have a comparison shot between that and a platinum?

Can't do photos or the whole thread will self destruct.
The specific alloy is called 19 karat vanilla white (via the producer). I am not their agent nor will my endorsement result in compensation.

 

[stone-cold11]

Dude, i may wind up in trouble over this, but I'm used to trouble in online forums.

For the record....I buy my pre-mixed alloy from a company called Argen, located in San Diego.
I used to buy it from a Canadian refiner but...they changed their formula and eventually their owner and the rest is history.
The 19 karat is over 80% pure yellow gold with a mixture of other elements that bleach it white...platinum-white.
Any American manufacturer can buy this stuff, but they offer only their regular beige or yellowish mix with rhodium because that is how they have always done things. I really don't get it. Our job is to look after our clients but many of us just want to sell the diamonds and get them onto the customer's hand....and enjoy the money.

Can you specify the alloy type, name of the WG you bought from Argen?

Edt:
You mean the 19kt white?

Do you have a comparison shot between that and a platinum?

Can't do photos or the whole thread will self destruct.
The specific alloy is called 19 karat vanilla white (via the producer). I am not their agent nor will my endorsement result in compensation.

Well, post a comparison shot at your own website then?

 

[FrekeChild]

So I couldn't stop thinking about this thread last night. I went back and read through the entire engagement ring thread today and especially considering the topic of this thread this stood out to me:

"August 9, 2009

My jeweler told me that if I buy it in their store with their warranty, they will replate it for free and it will need replating every few years. "

Also, it seems as though there was little discussion about metals at all--platinum was never really brought up, palladium was brought up once or twice and Matt seemed set on 14kt white gold from the get go--mostly based on the local jeweler's inventory and price. Matt was just looking for a setting that looked like the one Amanda liked. It was barely brought up that the setting he ended up choosing was 18kt white gold. I believe someone said that 18kt was more preferred for wedding/engagement rings because of the higher gold content.


Considering this quote:

"August 8, 2009

I have decided, screw my local jeweler. You guys are right. If they tried to take me once, the heck with them and their "service". I am all about buying online if the seller stands behind their product if something happens (tightening stones)."

I'd say that James Allen has done just that. I don't know any other company that would give you the option that Jim Schultz did earlier in this thread.

I don't think it's a vendor's job to go over every single "bad thing" or bit of maintenance a piece of jewelry has to go through. I know that most salespeople won't tell you the things that we've talked about (platinum and patinas, 18kt white gold and how it's more yellow than 14kt and how they both need to be replated if you want the WHITE look) because it takes time and people would lose sales! I know that you know from the ring buying thread (this is, if you are still reading this thread at all) that sales people will tell you anything to make a sale.

There is no one metal that is perfectly white and stays that way! Well, silver is, the cost is nothing next to gold and plat now, BUT it's really malleable, scratches really easily and bends super easily--meaning prongs aren't the best idea, if one catches on something, unless it's a 6 prong setting, odds are, your stone is GONE. As for Palladium, most benches don't know how to work with it, so you'd basically have to send it back any time it needed any work done.

Jewelry is a luxury item. It's become a luxury item with a lot of sentimental value attached to it. But it's not perfect, and it doesn't stay perfect. It takes either not wearing an item or maintaining it rabidly to keep up that perfect appearance.

I am sorry you are disappointed with your purchase, but since there doesn't seem to be a reasonable solution that is fair to both parties, there really isn't much else to say.

I'd suggest starting to save now for a platinum set for an anniversary in the future. Just keep in mind that platinum will take maintenance too to keep it looking shiny!

I would also get a spacer band. Considering it's been only around 2 years, the diamonds in the wedding band are eating into the head of the engagement ring rather drastically and that is something that you really need to keep an eye on. You DON'T want to lose that diamond!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Dude, i may wind up in trouble over this, but I'm used to trouble in online forums.

For the record....I buy my pre-mixed alloy from a company called Argen, located in San Diego.
I used to buy it from a Canadian refiner but...they changed their formula and eventually their owner and the rest is history.
The 19 karat is over 80% pure yellow gold with a mixture of other elements that bleach it white...platinum-white.
Any American manufacturer can buy this stuff, but they offer only their regular beige or yellowish mix with rhodium because that is how they have always done things. I really don't get it. Our job is to look after our clients but many of us just want to sell the diamonds and get them onto the customer's hand....and enjoy the money.

Can you specify the alloy type, name of the WG you bought from Argen?

Edt:
You mean the 19kt white?

Do you have a comparison shot between that and a platinum?

Can't do photos or the whole thread will self destruct.
The specific alloy is called 19 karat vanilla white (via the producer). I am not their agent nor will my endorsement result in compensation.

David, I wish this discussion of white gold was on a separate thread. Maybe I will start one. I 100% agree with you that it seems bizarre that we would accept fine jewelry that has to be plated! Why pay for a rare metal and then plate it? If it is alloyed well, then we should be able to enjoy the metal as it is and not have to plate it. I don't want to keep going here because few are reading this thread at this point. So please come over and discuss this on the new thread.

 

[kenny]

TheDoctor.

This is big news. HUGE!

I'll start a new thread on this WG alloy, that does not need rhodium plating, so this thread can sink.

EDIT: DS2006, I see you started one.
Thanks.
I'll contribute there.

 

[Owies Nana]

New to this thread: very interesting discussion!

Just curious: why can't the diamond melee be reused?

 

[kenny]

New to this thread: very interesting discussion!

Just curious: why can't the diamond melee be reused?

I'll bet it's physically possible but not economically sensible.

Melee are pretty cheap compared to the main diamond.
I'm sure they could reuse melee but it would probably cost more in labor to remove them than just buying new melee.

Also I suspect many pre-made settings with melee come to the jeweler with the melee already installed (probably in China).