Isn't it strange..

[Gypsy]

My dad lives in Australia, I can eat with my left. It's so funny I don't even think about it, but when I am there I do it. I did when I was in Europe though.

 

[elliemay]

Smith1940 -- For the last few months we've been doing our main shop at Lidl, supplemented with trips to Morrisons for minced turkey and visits to M&S for lunches. Shopping at Lidl is a truly strange experience, class-wise, as it seems to have become THE place to shop for people at both extremes of the social scale. There are loads of poshies in stocking up on pate' and frozen pheasant right beside working class people doing their entire weekly shop for £10. Very strange indeed.

The class system is very much alive and well in the US -- I'm surprised that so many people seem to think it isn't. The American Dream is a myth perpetuated by those who have already lived it, in my opinion. I used to be a teacher and said all the things I knew I was supposed to say to my students, but I knew in my heart that many of them had no chance because judgements would be made based on the colour of their skin, the fact that they lived in a mobile home, they way they spoke, their preference for John Deere-branded clothing, or the fact that their mother was a school lunch lady. In fact, thinking about it now, I feel that race, ethnicity, and social class are far more tightly linked in the US than in the UK.

Celebrity culture and the constant barrage of information via tv and the internet is also to blame for a lot of this. People want the newest, biggest, shiniest thing they can get and are more than prepared to toss it aside when the NEXT newer, bigger, shinier thing arrives. In the US, this seems to apply to everyone, and in the UK it applies to the lower middle class and working class -- they show off what they own while the upper middle and upper classes are content simply to own it. I think this can be clearly seen in a subject dear to all of our hearts -- engagement rings. Girls now want a ring that looks like Katie Holmes' or Beyonce's, etc., rather than a ring that looks like THEM. It isn't about the sentiment behind the ring -- it's about which celebrity inspired it. That just feels sad.

The UK class issue is very silent and not as in-your-face as some people seem to think. It isn't really talked about -- it's just there. You just know. In a way, I quite like it because it's solid. You know who you are. You accept what you have and get on with it. There isn't (generally) the constant grasping to have more money or acquire more things. No one walks into a room with a sign around their neck denoting their class. They don't have to -- you can tell by the way they handle the door and by looking at their shoes. People don't refuse to associate with one another based on class or choose their friends based on class -- it happens naturally. People tend to associate with and marry like-minded people who've had the same experiences. That's natural because it's what's comfortable. Are there exceptions? Of course, but they tend to prove the rule.

As others have said, though, UK class isn't necessarily about wealth. There are long-standing upper class families without enough money to fix the holes in their roof and working class business owners who have millions in the bank. Alan Sugar is the perfect example of this -- in the US, he would be considered upper class because he has a lot of money, lives in a huge house, has a driver, etc. In the UK, he's still working class because of his accent and vocabulary and because of the way his huge house is in perfect repair and furnished with all new (rather than inherited) furniture.

Interestingly, UK people apply the US class stereotypes to me (maybe because it's impossible to slot an American into the UK system?) -- I have a southern accent and people have automatically assumed I come from poor sharecropper stock, used to live in a trailer, and know how to make moonshine OR that I'm from Old Southern Money, was a debutante, and grew up in a big plantation house surrounded by trees swinging with Spanish moss. The truth is somewhere in between, but they know enough about the US system to be able to set upon both extremes of the spectrum.

 

[barbiebien]

Can someone explain the left hand fork thing? Over here you have a fork in the left hand and a knife in the right.

 

[elliemay]

http://www.europeupclose.com/article/england-vs-america-who-eats-properly/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fypq2qhRZnI

 

[barbiebien]

That's so funny. I never noticed this when i was in the States but indeed i would've found the American style very rude if someone having dinner with me ate like that. Culture is a funny thing

 

[Pandora II]

I love Lidl - amazing marzipan, wine and as you say... pheasant! I also enjoy the random stuff - horse blankets one week IIRC.

My father used to get very funny looks and he was once told that Lidl 'wasn't for the likes of him'!

Elliemay, you have described it very well. It is very silent. The issue comes when trying to explain it to someone who is not from the UK.

The other day I mentioned in another group online that my 2 year-old is developing a Cockney accent. Not unsuprising since we live in that area of London and the staff at her nursery speak that way. I find it very funny now, but I wouldn't want her to have it when she's 10. Amongst my family and friends from my own class it would be a source of amusement now but they would all understand exactly why I wouldn't want her to speak that way when she's older.

The group I mentioned it to was almost entirely people from the USA and a couple of them didn't really understand why it should be a problem or why I would care, which threw me a bit as it's hard to explain how much accent matters here without it sounding terrible. Mind you, that works both ways too - you certainly won't get a job as a TV presenter if you speak RP these days!

I was a politician in London for 4 years in a very deprived, white working-class area and there my surname and accent were a massive advantage in getting votes - there was an assumption that I had brains, confidence, competence and an ability to get to the people at the top and make things happen. I actually had no more power or influence than the other candidates, but that was the impression I gave... I sounded 'right' apparently (I made discreet enquires as I couldn't understand how I had polled as many votes as I did considering that it was a safe seat and I hadn't actually done much in the way of serious campaigning there so it wasn't a 'personal' vote).

Smith - although I didn't grow up in Britain, I did grow up in the colonies and my father is from an 'old' family so I although I was exposed to a totally different culture and can see things from outside more than most, I still had certain things 'bred' into me.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that while you can't change your own class no matter how much you earn, study or try, your children can make a good shot of it and if they succeed then your grandchildren definitely can. The Middletons achieved this for their children by sending them to very good schools.

I have seen it become very hard for parents though. I remember seeing a documentary about children going to boarding school at 7. There were twins girls whose parents were in the armed forces and being posted all over the place. The parents were working-class and found it very strange when their daughters came home for the holidays with RP accents and a different vocabulary. They were both thrilled that their daughters were having the opportunities they were and that they would go out into the world with the things that a private education would give them, but also terrified that their children would feel ashamed of them and not want to bring friends home.

For anyone interested in the UK class system, I would recommend reading Nancy Mitford's 'Love in a Cold Climate' and Jilly Cooper's 'Class'.

 

[Pandora II]

http://www.europeupclose.com/article/england-vs-america-who-eats-properly/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fypq2qhRZnI

My American SIL eats that way and it just looks so uncomfortable to me as well as rather sloppy. I also presumed that she had never been taught how to hold a knife and fork properly so very interesting article to read.

Oh, in the article they say that the British call silverware 'cutlery', this is true, but it is a bit non-U. I would always call them 'knives and forks'...

And eating food with your fingers is a mine-field. It is perfectly acceptable to pick up your bones and gnaw them (the Queen does it) and to eat cake with your fingers, but wiping up gravy with your bread is not. However the lower-middle classes would be horrified at picking up bones as it doesn't appear genteel.

 

[Asu]

Here in Italy diamonds and big jewelry are something only celebrities,uber rich and "classless" people flaunt.
There is also the fact that jewelry and diamonds in particular costs much more than in the USA.Also,gold under 18k is considered basically junk.
Even people with money are very,very careful and understated with jewelry.I've still not met anyone with a real diamond bigger than .50 ct,not even among people with a lot of money.Tons of people wear(small) colored stones,and even more wear colorless zircons.Even then,the sizes are modest.
Wedding bands must be plain and matching,and most of the times they are yellow gold.
You will very rarely see a woman wear more than her wedding band,a watch and maybe a pair of earrings,sometimes a chain instead of the earrings.

 

[Jennifer W]

I thought I had read somewhere Europeans consider diamonds "night time" jewelry? Such as black tie, special event jewelry?

In England, I believe that diamonds are correctly worn by married ladies, and never before luncheon. Essentially, you don't see them being worn out and about because properly, they are evening wear and would only be worn at private functions. Engagement rings are not traditionally diamond because you wouldn't give an unmarried lady a diamond to wear all day. It isn't proper.

Lots of the cultural and class-related rules don't apply to the whole of the UK or Britain, but to England and the English. I don't know about Wales or Ireland, but in Scotland, there are different sets of rules and alternative minefields to navigate, with traps for the unwary...

I think the most unforgivable social sin in Scotland is arrogance. We really don't like that here and collectively seem have a sort of in-built compulsion to take a pop at it on every available occasion. It's a sort of national sport or pastime.

 

[elliemay]

I love Lidl - amazing marzipan, wine and as you say... pheasant! I also enjoy the random stuff - horse blankets one week IIRC.

Yes! The have the most random things in -- lately there's been lots of ski equipment, which always looks funny next to the huge plastic 2-liter bottles of cheapo cider.

The other day I mentioned in another group online that my 2 year-old is developing a Cockney accent. Not unsuprising since we live in that area of London and the staff at her nursery speak that way. I find it very funny now, but I wouldn't want her to have it when she's 10. Amongst my family and friends from my own class it would be a source of amusement now but they would all understand exactly why I wouldn't want her to speak that way when she's older.

The group I mentioned it to was almost entirely people from the USA and a couple of them didn't really understand why it should be a problem or why I would care, which threw me a bit as it's hard to explain how much accent matters here without it sounding terrible. Mind you, that works both ways too - you certainly won't get a job as a TV presenter if you speak RP these days!

I'm very interested to see what happens when I have children. I still have a pretty strong southern US accent and my husband tends to err on the side of RP (mostly trained into him in radio and BBC work) with a light northeastern accent if he's talking to friends. Our kids will probably have crazy Geordie accents when they're outside the house and either sound like the Marlboro man or the queen when they're at home!

 

[Pandora II]

I thought I had read somewhere Europeans consider diamonds "night time" jewelry? Such as black tie, special event jewelry?

In England, I believe that diamonds are correctly worn by married ladies, and never before luncheon. Essentially, you don't see them being worn out and about because properly, they are evening wear and would only be worn at private functions. Engagement rings are not traditionally diamond because you wouldn't give an unmarried lady a diamond to wear all day. It isn't proper.

Lots of the cultural and class-related rules don't apply to the whole of the UK or Britain, but to England and the English. I don't know about Wales or Ireland, but in Scotland, there are different sets of rules and alternative minefields to navigate, with traps for the unwary...

I think the most unforgivable social sin in Scotland is arrogance. We really don't like that here and collectively seem have a sort of in-built compulsion to take a pop at it on every available occasion. It's a sort of national sport or pastime.

Correct on the diamonds - I used to see some fabulous pieces come out at evening events on people who during the day only wore a plain gold band. The Queen does wear diamonds before luncheon and that is acceptable... because she is the Queen basically.

 

[Pandora II]

I love Lidl - amazing marzipan, wine and as you say... pheasant! I also enjoy the random stuff - horse blankets one week IIRC.

Yes! The have the most random things in -- lately there's been lots of ski equipment, which always looks funny next to the huge plastic 2-liter bottles of cheapo cider.

The other day I mentioned in another group online that my 2 year-old is developing a Cockney accent. Not unsuprising since we live in that area of London and the staff at her nursery speak that way. I find it very funny now, but I wouldn't want her to have it when she's 10. Amongst my family and friends from my own class it would be a source of amusement now but they would all understand exactly why I wouldn't want her to speak that way when she's older.

The group I mentioned it to was almost entirely people from the USA and a couple of them didn't really understand why it should be a problem or why I would care, which threw me a bit as it's hard to explain how much accent matters here without it sounding terrible. Mind you, that works both ways too - you certainly won't get a job as a TV presenter if you speak RP these days!

I'm very interested to see what happens when I have children. I still have a pretty strong southern US accent and my husband tends to err on the side of RP (mostly trained into him in radio and BBC work) with a light northeastern accent if he's talking to friends. Our kids will probably have crazy Geordie accents when they're outside the house and either sound like the Marlboro man or the queen when they're at home!

Yes, that will be quite an interesting mix! Do you find it hard to understand Geordie? I was at University in Newcastle and thought the accent there was fantastic but very hard to do.

The thing with Cockney is that it is very much a working-class accent, where as many regional accents are more wide-spread socially, there are many very solidly middle-class people with strong Yorkshire, Manchester, Sunderland, insert area of choice accents. It's less likely among the upper-classes where RP is more prevelant, but when I was at Newcastle I had a lot of friends who were studying Agriculture - quite a few of whom were training to run the family estate. They spoke RP but often with a touch of Yorkshire dales in there.
My husband's family are from Birmingham - DH and his older brother speak RP but the youngest speaks RP with definite traces of Brummie which is quite strange to hear.

Scottish, Welsh and Irish accents are also classless - although there may be different vocabularies and particular pronunciations used by different groups. But you wouldn't think, oh Welsh accent, they must be upper-class.

 

[elliemay]

I love Lidl - amazing marzipan, wine and as you say... pheasant! I also enjoy the random stuff - horse blankets one week IIRC.

Yes! The have the most random things in -- lately there's been lots of ski equipment, which always looks funny next to the huge plastic 2-liter bottles of cheapo cider.

The other day I mentioned in another group online that my 2 year-old is developing a Cockney accent. Not unsuprising since we live in that area of London and the staff at her nursery speak that way. I find it very funny now, but I wouldn't want her to have it when she's 10. Amongst my family and friends from my own class it would be a source of amusement now but they would all understand exactly why I wouldn't want her to speak that way when she's older.

The group I mentioned it to was almost entirely people from the USA and a couple of them didn't really understand why it should be a problem or why I would care, which threw me a bit as it's hard to explain how much accent matters here without it sounding terrible. Mind you, that works both ways too - you certainly won't get a job as a TV presenter if you speak RP these days!

I'm very interested to see what happens when I have children. I still have a pretty strong southern US accent and my husband tends to err on the side of RP (mostly trained into him in radio and BBC work) with a light northeastern accent if he's talking to friends. Our kids will probably have crazy Geordie accents when they're outside the house and either sound like the Marlboro man or the queen when they're at home!

Yes, that will be quite an interesting mix! Do you find it hard to understand Geordie? I was at University in Newcastle and thought the accent there was fantastic but very hard to do.

I didn't understand a single word anyone said when I first moved over. Most Americans know nothing of British accents other than the queen's or Phil Mitchell's, so I was pretty lost! When I first started working here, I took a little 4 hour a day admin job to get my feet wet and they actually stopped making me answer my own phone because I couldn't understand anyone -- I needed to be able to read their lips and obviously couldn't do that on the phone! I must've been the only admin assistant in England with her own admin assistant!

Now, though, I LOVE IT. I'm more of a proper Geordie than my husband is! I work with some right proper Geordies and they've schooled me well!

 

[Logan Sapphire]

When I lived in Manchester, one of my housemates was from Middlesbrough and for the first month or so, I couldn't understand a word of what he was saying (he claimed he couldn't understand me either). We had another housemate translate for us.

 

[Jennifer W]

I love Lidl - amazing marzipan, wine and as you say... pheasant! I also enjoy the random stuff - horse blankets one week IIRC.

Yes! The have the most random things in -- lately there's been lots of ski equipment, which always looks funny next to the huge plastic 2-liter bottles of cheapo cider.

The other day I mentioned in another group online that my 2 year-old is developing a Cockney accent. Not unsuprising since we live in that area of London and the staff at her nursery speak that way. I find it very funny now, but I wouldn't want her to have it when she's 10. Amongst my family and friends from my own class it would be a source of amusement now but they would all understand exactly why I wouldn't want her to speak that way when she's older.

The group I mentioned it to was almost entirely people from the USA and a couple of them didn't really understand why it should be a problem or why I would care, which threw me a bit as it's hard to explain how much accent matters here without it sounding terrible. Mind you, that works both ways too - you certainly won't get a job as a TV presenter if you speak RP these days!

I'm very interested to see what happens when I have children. I still have a pretty strong southern US accent and my husband tends to err on the side of RP (mostly trained into him in radio and BBC work) with a light northeastern accent if he's talking to friends. Our kids will probably have crazy Geordie accents when they're outside the house and either sound like the Marlboro man or the queen when they're at home!

Yes, that will be quite an interesting mix! Do you find it hard to understand Geordie? I was at University in Newcastle and thought the accent there was fantastic but very hard to do.

The thing with Cockney is that it is very much a working-class accent, where as many regional accents are more wide-spread socially, there are many very solidly middle-class people with strong Yorkshire, Manchester, Sunderland, insert area of choice accents. It's less likely among the upper-classes where RP is more prevelant, but when I was at Newcastle I had a lot of friends who were studying Agriculture - quite a few of whom were training to run the family estate. They spoke RP but often with a touch of Yorkshire dales in there.
My husband's family are from Birmingham - DH and his older brother speak RP but the youngest speaks RP with definite traces of Brummie which is quite strange to hear.

Scottish, Welsh and Irish accents are also classless - although there may be different vocabularies and particular pronunciations used by different groups. But you wouldn't think, oh Welsh accent, they must be upper-class.

Only to English people, to whom I suspect they all sound much the same. In the way that most English people sound much the same to us. I have this conversation regularly with my English husband and his family, who all claim to have no accents / RP. To Scottish people, they have strong, immediately obvious English accents (and we don't hear much difference between cockney and RP, in all truth, it's all just "English accents").

 

[Rebecca0388]

When I first signed up to this PS it was because I was researching diamonds and gems, but I have quickly become addicted!

I think it's so amazing to have this space where so many different people from all over the world can come together and compare different experiences. I know my high school history teacher would be tickled pink by this

I'm from Australia, where a bogan is the equivalent of a chav, vegimite rules all and it it penut butter and jam not jelly

This has been so interesting, thanks for sharing.

 

[Pandora II]

Only to English people, to whom I suspect they all sound much the same. In the way that most English people sound much the same to us. I have this conversation regularly with my English husband and his family, who all claim to have no accents / RP. To Scottish people, they have strong, immediately obvious English accents (and we don't hear much difference between cockney and RP, in all truth, it's all just "English accents").

It's a bit like the difference between Rab C Nesbitt and Sir Menzies Campbell....

I'm one of the very few people I know in England who can watch Rab and not need subtitles!

 

[Smith1940]

I think we've written a book right here about cultural indicators!

Elliemay - going from the southern US to Geordie-land must have been a real culture clash for you! I am actually half-Geordie; my mother is Geordie and I spent many school holidays up there with my grandparents. We still have family friends up there, and I remember the place with a lot of affection. I remember always going to Fenwick's, and they used to have a fabulous toy department on the top floor, I think. We're talking around 1980-1985.

Pandora - I don't recall the same about state and private school people not mixing at university...that's interesting. I could tell which was which, though! I went to Royal Holloway College, University of London.

About accents...that's also an interesting one in modern Britain. Pandora is right in that having an RP accent probably works against you if you want to be a TV presenter! One way of speaking that I don't like at all is estuary, with its flat vowels.

For me, personally, I tend to get the issue of character mixed up with class. For example, if someone from an old family with an ancient seat behaves in a despicable manner, I just find it impossible to think of them as upper-class. They become low-rent in my mind. Similarly, if I meet someone who would be identified in the UK as working-class, but who has beautiful manners and a lovely personality, then I think very well of them indeed.

I suppose what I'm saying is that to me, quality of character trumps class every time.

Now, getting back to diamonds: ....I must be common because I do wish for bigger ones!

Here's what I have:

Engagement ring: 0.70 Hearts on Fire
Studs: 0.68 ctw Blue Nile Signature (so .34 each)
Solitaire necklace: 0.52 triple 000 AGS Hearts & Arrows from James Allen (but this one is a D colour!)

Here's what I wish I had!

Right-hand ring: 1.5-1.6 ctw
Studs: 1-1.5 ctw (so 0.50-0.75 each)
Necklace: Halo solitiare with 1 carat centre stone.

I know a lot of people have 2-3 carats for a ring, but I think that would be well outside my comfort zone! Maybe they look better on taller, bigger people...I'm quite small, so the smaller diamonds probably suit me best, anyway.

 

[Smith1940]

Oh - and about the knife and fork...I eat with knife in right and fork in left and it doesn't change...I even eat hamburgers like this. I also sound 100% English - when I go home, people tell me I haven't a trace of an American accent.

I think some people are surprised that I'm not more "American" after five years here, but since I was 32 when I left Britain, I don't think I'll be changing. Also, I identify very much with the UK since I came here for my husband, so I'm here through circumstance and not any sustained effort on my part to leave the UK. Things have been easier now that I work from home and don't have to deal with the odd person who has a problem with me being British! OK, it's only one or two people - but believe me, they make themselves felt!

 

[Pandora II]

I think it depends on the University. Places like Bristol, Durham, Newcastle etc are very popular with the Public Schools and get large contingents - I think there were 7 OE's in my Halls that year and about the same number from Harrow.

In London you will get a wider mix and a lot more students who live at home - probably a lot more mature and part-time students as well.

I did notice that at weekends the only 2 of us who didn't go home almost every week were both ex-boarding school. So, we naturally all grouped together to do things at the weekend which gradually crept over into the week as well.

 

[partgypsy]

I think how old money and new money are perceived, I think there are American regional differences. We all know the stereotypes of LA, and New York, and bigger is better. I have a friend from New England who comes from money, and when I was on my little jewelry kick, she said something like, oh I'd like a pair of earrings like that, but I could NEVER spend that kind of money on jewelry (though yes, she could well afford it). Where she came from, yes maybe they had a million dollar brownstone in Boston, or a big house in some small new england state, but no one wore big jewelry except maybe Granny and it was an old stone. To a lesser extent this is true in the midwest, OK to have an expensive home or expensive dog, but lots of bling is gauche.

In the same way the people I know who go to my children's school which is in a wealthy neighborhood, yes there are some diamond studs and some substantial diamond rings, but for the most part, people are dressed casually and don't seem to care about jewelry at all. I stick out because I'm coming and going from work, where most are stay at homes. I think where people spend their money and is the signifier, is their home. Many of these moms have big really nice homes in an historic district with impeccably groomed landscapes that they take care of themselves (well, with maybe with just a little help of maid service or landscaping).

So in a sense, I feel like the lawyer in Downton Abbey! (without the landed connections).

Also I feel that Europe felt the effects of 2 world wars more than we in the Americas did, the memories of what happened to people (being rounded up possessions taken away) gives them a different perspective on material things. This overlaps with generational differences. Maybe there is even if only on an unconscious level mistrust? of flaunting or showing too much wealth because it could be taken away. I know the way my greek grandmother dealt with money (and the outside material trappings thereof) is very different than say how my cousins do.

 

[TravelingGal]

I think the most unforgivable social sin in Scotland is arrogance. We really don't like that here and collectively seem have a sort of in-built compulsion to take a pop at it on every available occasion. It's a sort of national sport or pastime.

It seems the same in Australia...TGuy talks about the tall poppy syndrome a lot.

I actually think the national pastime is mocking the English specifically, but what do I know?

 

[Pandora II]

I think the most unforgivable social sin in Scotland is arrogance. We really don't like that here and collectively seem have a sort of in-built compulsion to take a pop at it on every available occasion. It's a sort of national sport or pastime.

It seems the same in Australia...TGuy talks about the tall poppy syndrome a lot.

I actually think the national pastime is mocking the English specifically, but what do I know?

Oh, you are quite right TGal... but then we regard them all as as former convicts so it's all fun and games and everybody is friends really

 

[TravelingGal]

I think the most unforgivable social sin in Scotland is arrogance. We really don't like that here and collectively seem have a sort of in-built compulsion to take a pop at it on every available occasion. It's a sort of national sport or pastime.

It seems the same in Australia...TGuy talks about the tall poppy syndrome a lot.

I actually think the national pastime is mocking the English specifically, but what do I know?

Oh, you are quite right TGal... but then we regard them all as as former convicts so it's all fun and games and everybody is friends really

I say the same to him, to which TGuy proudly says that South Australia was a free state.

 

[Frenchcut]

In France where I live very few women wear a diamond ring larger than 0.3 carat so my 0.9 carat looks big wherever I go and I know only one woman who has one bigger than mine (and she's much older, which makes it more acceptable as in France older people often wear larger rings/earrings).

Anything above 1 carat would probably seen as tasteless IRL, even celebrities don't flash large rocks!

French women don't seem to invest a lot in their jewellery so I'm kind of an exception but have never had any unpleasant comment about it (even though I suspect some jealousy from a few women where I work).

As to the reason why not a lot of women wear diamonds ? Probably has to do with history (diamonds were for the royalty, most people see them as unaffordable) and culture (truly wealthy people don't show off their money as it's not acceptable and only nouveau riches will do that...I think that's slowly changing as you can see more and more women with branded jewellery/bags, especially in Paris but it has to remain discreet).

 

[Rhea]

I soon settled in, though, and love it now. It's very much home and suspect it will be even more so after I've had children. I moved from the southern US to northeast England, and I think that was the perfect fit for me -- both are full of loud, nosy, friendly people who will tell you how to live your life if you give them half a chance!

May I ask where you live? I went from small, rural South to London and holy heck is it different! I've had my several years to get used to it now, but I think I'd like to move out of this major city to someplace a bit less expensive, less crowded, and where I might actually know my neighbor's name. On the plus side, while I don't know my neighbor's name, I once took in a package for her. She was so shocked that she wrote me a thank you note expressing her surprise and saying that no one does that. So I went over and chatted for a few minutes. She noticed I was American. I'm not only building neighbor relations, I'm building race relations

Ah, there'll always be those people, won't there? Not long ago we had a BNP candidate come to the door and go through his big anti-immigration speech and I nodded along with it. When he finished, I asked him (in my best Steel Magnolias accent) if he was referring to ME, since I'm an immigrant. He looked like he'd swallowed a toad and said no, of course not, he meant "the other kind" of immigrants. I called him some distinctly unladylike names and slammed the door in his face. Bastard.

Ha! I love it! I get this quite a bit. I love the look on people's face when I point out that I'm an immigrant and their struggle to explain themselves.

 

[Jennifer W]

I think the most unforgivable social sin in Scotland is arrogance. We really don't like that here and collectively seem have a sort of in-built compulsion to take a pop at it on every available occasion. It's a sort of national sport or pastime.

It seems the same in Australia...TGuy talks about the tall poppy syndrome a lot.

I actually think the national pastime is mocking the English specifically, but what do I know?

It gives us something to do in Scotland, while we're watching the drizzle fall...

ETA I won't say that the Scots don't like the English, that would be a gross generalisation. I will just say that when I got engaged in my early 20s to a man many years my senior, who had previously been married and had almost adult children, my mother wept bitter tears. Because he was English (and for no other reason).

 

[QueenB29]

This is a FASCINATING thread.

 

[Pandora II]

I think the most unforgivable social sin in Scotland is arrogance. We really don't like that here and collectively seem have a sort of in-built compulsion to take a pop at it on every available occasion. It's a sort of national sport or pastime.

It seems the same in Australia...TGuy talks about the tall poppy syndrome a lot.

I actually think the national pastime is mocking the English specifically, but what do I know?

It gives us something to do in Scotland, while we're watching the drizzle fall...

ETA I won't say that the Scots don't like the English, that would be a gross generalisation. I will just say that when I got engaged in my early 20s to a man many years my senior, who had previously been married and had almost adult children, my mother wept bitter tears. Because he was English (and for no other reason).

LOL, has she come round?

When my grandmother got engaged to my grandfather who was from Scotland, her family all said 'poor Joan, married to a foreigner'... the fact he was a very successful barrister from a good family, as well as being extremely handsome and nice meant nothing!

Generally the English rather like the Scots...

 

[haute_couture]

For example, if someone from an old family with an ancient seat behaves in a despicable manner, I just find it impossible to think of them as upper-class. They become low-rent in my mind. Similarly, if I meet someone who would be identified in the UK as working-class, but who has beautiful manners and a lovely personality, then I think very well of them indeed.

I suppose what I'm saying is that to me, quality of character trumps class every time.

Perfectly said. It simply boils down to this for me.