Isn't it strange..

[TravelingGal]

I think people in the US tend to underestimate the role of classes in the UK. It's almost always apparent from someone's dress, accent and where they live to which class they belong. It's hard to really equate to society in the US.

I've been hearing about this a bit recently and find it fascinating.

I also, upon hearing a lot of this stuff, am glad that I live in a society where I can be as classy or crassy as I want. Being Korean, if I use a Korean accent, both words sound the same anyway.

 

[Smith1940]

Yssie and TravellignGal: Marmite is the foodstuff of kings. The only reason they had nectar and ambrosia is that Marmite had not yet been invented. I like peanut butter too though - but I find it with jelly a bit too rich.

Aprilbaby: that's possible. In the Edwardian era I would imagine the aristocrats wore their fine diamonds at dinner in the evenings - which was a pretty formal affair everyday if you were a lord/earl etc. They did have fine jewels - remember Princess Diana's spectacular Spencer tiara that she wore when she married Charles? Anyway, I suppose that attitude to fine jewellery has trickled down to us today, in that you don't find many huge amazing diamonds on show everyday in UK offices - and I mean in offices where people earn a lot.

Circe: That is an excellent question. There is no reason that new money is bad, except that old attitudes die hard. You only have to see the vitriol levelled at Kate Middleton's family to see that. When she and William had a break-up, the things that the press wrote about her mother were inexcusable. Her mother is descended from poor-as-church-mice miners and labourers, and she has made an awful lot of money with her Internet business selling party things. She has also maintained a marriage and raised three children, and always looks elegant. She is an amazing role model. But all many people can see is that she was born in a council house (project).

If you have never lived in the UK, it is hard to convey the depth of snobbishness that exists in many circles. Did you know that fitted carpets are considered common? That's because you're meant to have worn rugs covering the flagstones of your manor house, rugs that were preferably brought back by a relative from India in colonial days. Writer Nancy Mitford of the famous Mitford sisters wrote an essay about what is U and non-U (U= upper class). She said that the following words were non-U: mirror, toilet, pardon, lounge, serviette. The U usage is: looking-glass, lavatory, "What?" instead of "Pardon?", sitting-room, and napkin. It is considered non-U to use the words "classy" and "posh" - if you're thinking about whether you're classy or posh, then you're not. Upper-class people never have to think about such things, you see! Dinner is referred to as "supper" in U usage, unless you're hosting a formal dinner, and if you refer to the main meal of the day as "tea" (and you don't mean sandwiches and cakes) and if you call lunch "dinner" then you mark yourself out as firmly working-class.

Life in Britain among certain circles is a tightrope of judgement and you mark yourself out in the words you use and the things you possess. About the new money thing, on Downton Abbey there's a wonderful moment set in around 1912, when an aged dowager countess hears a middle-class young man talking about his new job as a lawyer, and he says that he will have weekends free. She is thoroughly confused and says, "What is a weekend?" That's the root of the new-money prejudice: truly "posh" people never had to work. That's why some hostesses would sort the wheat from the chaff by hosting a country house weekend...for Saturday to Monday. (They were actually known as Saturday to Mondays.) Those with jobs couldn't make it. The general feeling among these circles is that old money doesn't need to flaunt it, and new money always does flaunt it. Of course, jewellery is a useful way of flaunting - or not flaunting!

I hope that has made it clearer how and why these attitudes exist. They are very old, and people today somehow think they are aligning themselves with the aristocracy by perpetuating them. Example: my cousin is not "posh". But after she heard Maggie Smith pronounce "appreciate" as "appre-see-ate" instead of "appre-she-ate" on Downton Abbey, my cousin started doing it too!

I also used to work with a girl who was very aristocratic. I once overheard her exclaim in horror that she could never, ever live in a NEW house!

 

[elliemay]

In the US, people like to show their success in the things they buy and wear. People will openly discuss what size TV they have, which car they drive, where they went for vacation, and other purchases that reflect their success. In some parts of Europe, that would be considered bragging, and perhaps unseemly. Different cultures, for sure.

This, definitely. Upper class and middle class people might own the same things, but the difference is in how they treat them and how they talk about them. The upper class Jaguar will most likely be 20 years old, covered in mud, and have dog hair all over the interior whereas the working class Jaguar will be in showroom conditions. The upper class woman might wear an £800 trench coat, but you'll be hard pressed to know what brand it is unless you're already very familiar with the tailoring or recognise the lining. The middle class woman might have the same coat, but she'll make sure to fold it over her chair in such a way that the label is clearly visible. It's all very subtle and difficult to navigate as an American, in my experience.

You might see a woman in the supermarket in a holey jumper, dingy leggings, and mud-caked wellies. To the casual viewer, she'll look pretty low class, maybe even homeless. It's not until you get closer and see the quality of the wool used in that jumper, the horse hair all over her leggings, and the half-worn away label on her £350 wellies that you realise that she's actually rather well-to-do. (Of course, there's the whole issue of which supermarket you're in -- that's a whole other issue in the UK! )

 

[Smith1940]

All those posts were written while I was writing my very long post, so sorry if it seemed I ignored anyone!

Yes, old money does go to work too. I guess it's true about the flash factor/boasting etc.

Ellie - you're so right about the supermarket issue!!!! Go on, go on, which one do you go to?

You're also right about the dirt issue. This is why I will never be upper-class! I used to live with a wealthy posh girl, and all her things were disgusting. For example, she had this old Le Creuset kettle that was so beat-up and rusty, it was truly horrible. She could have afforded a kettle made of gold, if she'd wanted! I'm a big believer in cleanliness and in everything being in good repair, and in looking clean and groomed. I guess I'll never be an aristocrat! When Princess Anne's daughter Zara got engaged, there was a newspaper article comparing her fingernails with Kate's. It said that Kate was clearly from new money because her nails were clean and polished whereas Zara's were full of horse dirt!

 

[TravelingGal]

Another PS told me about all that non U/ U stuff, quoting the same thing, I believe. I found the "pardon" thing really funny as my husband INSISTS on teaching my child to use "pardon" to be polite instead of "what".

After the PSer told me about this, I told my husband. He said, "Seriously?" I told him, you bunch of Aussie low class convicts, you.

(for the record, this low class American prefers "excuse me?" or "sorry?"

 

[Smith1940]

So, today is five years to the day that I immigrated to America. Apart from all the good stuff covered in the posts above, I just have this to add: If I had stayed in the UK, there is no way that I would have the kind of jewellery and the wardrobe that I now have. There is 20% sales tax at home, and goods are often cost a third or more than they do here even before that tax. There is also less choice at home, and more online shopping here, and the wonder of coupons. I have a wardrobe full of Ralph Lauren that I would never otherwise have got, for example a $700 jacket that I found in an outlet for $70.00 - yes, a 90% reduction. As a result of being able to buy better clothes and jewellery, I now look much more polished than when I came. So may I just say: God bless America!!!

 

[Smith1940]

Another PS told me about all that non U/ U stuff, quoting the same thing, I believe. I found the "pardon" thing really funny as my husband INSISTS on teaching my child to use "pardon" to be polite instead of "what".

After the PSer told me about this, I told my husband. He said, "Seriously?" I told him, you bunch of Aussie low class convicts, you.

(for the record, this low class American prefers "excuse me?" or "sorry?"

That's so funny! "What?" sounds rude to me too. I say "Sorry?" or "Excuse me?" as well.

 

[sapphirering]

Oh this is such a fun discussion. My husband is English, and here are some of my observations of English upper-middle class behavior:

1) You do not give presents of high monetary value unless it's a truly special event (say, a 40th wedding anniversary). I have learned not to give anything fancy to my ILs because they will perceive it as a) me showing off (which is the American equivalent of telling someone that they're fat), or b)implying that I think that they're shabby for not having such fancy present in the first place, or c)I'm trying to kiss up to them.

I've told my husband repeatedly that I would be fine with accepting nice presents from him. Truly, I would not be offended in the least.

2) You can talk derogatory about anyone, particularly people who hold offices in government or church, but you must never ever talk badly of any dog. Ever.

3) The more my ILs are upset at someone, the more polite they are to them.

4) All their friends have nick names. When I attended my husband's cousin's wedding a few years back (held in a marquise or tent in American), all the friends of the parents have nick names like Shrimp, Chub, Chick, etc. The implication is that if you don't know their nick names, then you don't belong.

5) Old is definitely, vastly preferred over, than new. Old means that you have had it for a long time, or your family has had it for a long time. New means that you couldn't afford it until now. In America we admire a self made man, but it seems like in England it's all about how old and prominent your ancestry is.

6) Smith1940, I ITA with your post about Diana's ring (I couldn't believe that the future Queen of England didn't get a Royal Rock!) And also your feelings about Kate receiving a ring with such a history. I think Kate is very pretty and seems like a lovely woman, but yes she definitely would not be mistaken for an aristocrat. I always think of an English aristocrat as someone who looks slightly eccentric, quirky, or off. Kate seems too pull-togethered for that. And even though her hair might be conceived as too middle class, I must admit that I covet, I covet!

 

[mandasand]

Part of me wishes there was less emphasis here in America when it comes to huge diamond rings...just exploring this forum, I see it every day, guys and girls searching for diamond rings 2 or more cts. I could never IMAGINE getting a 2ct diamond ring, but that is small to some people. I actually make a very decent living and could afford such a piece, but there is something about it that does not appeal to me. I think it just may be my attitude towards luxury (I don't purchase designer products and when I get a gift like a coach purse, it goes in the closet). I recently read one thread on here where the girl complaining that she wasn't getting any compliments on her huge diamond ring and she felt slighted by that. I am not trying to be a hater, and I love that I live in a free country where I can chose any kind of ring I want. But, I think that my mentality is similar to a European sensibility. My company is based in Germany and I travel there often. I lived there briefly during college and some of my bestest friends live there. In Germany, getting an engagement ring is not common, but getting a diamond engagement ring is even less common. Most women prefer a nice gold ring or gemstones, something interesting. Others are just satisfied with a gold wedding band. Perhaps it has something to do with income. In Germany, they pay very high income taxes, which affords them healthcare and other social services. So, a big chunk of their money is going back into the system. Therefore, maybe they don't see value in spending $10,000 on a ring when they just gave 45% of their income to the government.

 

[Gypsy]

I also, upon hearing a lot of this stuff, am glad that I live in a society where I can be as classy or crassy as I want.

Me too. I can't imagine being so concerned with class and appearances. I wear what I want when I want. And I'm in the no makeup crowd. And for the record I was raised in the US and refused to eat a PB&J until my DH made me. Now I can say I've had one. But you will never find me actually asking to eat one. It was okay but there are so many better things to eat (peanut butter and honey sandwiches, for example).

 

[Pandora II]

Lol, all oh so true!

I'm the PSer that TGal is referring to btw. I find it quite fascinating the way things work, but at the same time my upbringing kicks in very strongly. I couldn't say 'pardon' or 'toilet' in daily usage if I was paid to, it would just be too painful, I cringe when my daughter says it. But I dare say people who have said pardon all their lives would struggle with saying 'what?' instead or asking for the 'lavatory' - I go with 'loo' as a compromise between the two. It's just what you are used to and comfortable with.

I know that I can tell a huge amount about someone within 2 minutes of talking to them regardless of the topic - the accent and vocabulary alone say an awful lot.

However, it doesn't mean that you would dislike or patronise anyone because of what they say, how they say it, what they wear etc - it just pigeon-holes them. One does tend to gravitate towards people who are similar - just as in a foreign country two people from the same country may find they have more in common with each other than with the local population. Marrying out of your social class can be full of pitfalls - I dated a guy from a very different background from mine for many years and I must say that when I met my husband it was all so much easier.

Rudeness over 'class' also works both ways... the staff at my daughter's nursery all mimic her and the way she asks for the 'loo' in front of me - it wouldn't occur to them that it is just as rude as if I were to make fun of their use of toilet and their accent to their faces. I grew up with a double-barrelled surname and a cut-glass accent and paid a heavy price in terms of people making assumptions (in particular that I must be very wealthy ) and that I would be stuck-up and look down on them. I spent years trying to alter my accent to fit in but I wasn't very good at it, and it made me very angry that it was very acceptable to make these kind of comments.

I used to work in the House of Lords for one of the Peers and that is a real melting pot of classes (becoming a Lord does not change things - if you still put the milk in your cup before the tea it will be noticed) - the most aristocratic tended to have the cardigans with the holes in the elbows, but then all their money was going on fixing the roof on the family home and frankly they didn't care or have to. They were also the most likely to say 'for goodness sake call me Tom'. The ones from more humble origins were far more likely to insist being called 'My Lord' and all their titles being used on a daily basis (and even get their own titles wrong - a knight who becomes a peer is Lord LastName, not Lord Sir X as some used to put).

Jewellery wise, I am obsessed - I'm also a gemmologist. People I speak to here are all fascinated with gemstones, but also quite scared of buying them. I did ask the CEO at the Gemmological Society of Great Britain why we no longer spend vast amounts on bling given that in the 18th and 19th centuries we were rabid consumers - he reckoned it was a case of BTDT. I think a lot has to do with the offer - there is plenty at the low end (9ct stuff from high street B&Ms) and plenty at the top end (Tiffany, Graff etc) but a lot of their customers aren't British. At the mid-level there is not that great a choice and people are very wary of going to small independent jewellers - who often don't actually know much about what they are selling.

I have a coloured stone e-ring, my mother and sister have sapphires. My grandmothers have sapphire and emerald respectively and my cousins have ruby and aquamarine. My brother bought his wife a 1.03ct rb (Whiteflash) through me and there were a lot of comments on how huge (ie ostentatious) it was (despite bigger stones being shut in the safe!) I wear a 2.20ct OEC 3-stone RHR but as the stones face up smaller being old cuts and it is antique not new it has only ever got positive comments.

I know many girls here where both they and their husbands are earning 6 figures GBP each and the girl has a 1/4 carat and wouldn't even think of upgrading it. My SIL has the largest e-ring amongst our friends - 1.51ct rb with emerald pears... but she's American!

Things are changing a bit - having 'American' teeth is becoming more acceptable for definite. Labels are a mixed bag... buying quality that lasts is more acceptable than buying Louis Vuitton for example. So jumpers will be cashmere if possible (with moth holes), coats will be Barbour or Aquascutum and bags will be Mulberry rather than Coach if they have a label at all, the important things is that they are real leather. Second-hand is also good. I used to go to a second-hand sale at a friend of my mother's house - all the people there were the wives of the local barristers, surgeons etc

Oh, foreigners are exempt from the whole thing - you can talk about horse-riding and use the wrong knife and fork and no-one will be pigeon-holeing you!


ETA: It's less obvious in other European countries but still there. I lived in Italy for 8 years and noticed that the upper classes were very reserved in displaying wealth and were not sniffy about people at all (unless it looked like their child might marry beneath them), but there was a huge wealth divide with people being massively looked down on if they weren't well off. In Britain, your social class is not tied to your bank balance at all.

 

[sapphirering]

Oh, and can I just add that I have tried to eat with my left hand holding the fork, but it is SO HARD for me! I have to switch my fork to the right hand and I'm always self conscious about it. And my husband and his parents eat with the fork faced down. Instead of piercing the fork into the food or shoveling it up, they use the knife to push the food on the back of the fork, and then they put the fork to their mouth.

Very inefficient in my view.

eta: My MIL has a three stone ring that totals maybe .15 ct, tops. I don't think it's ever occurred to her to upgrade, enough though they can afford to buy a paper weight!

 

[Pandora II]

I can't believe that there isn't a class system of some kind in the USA?

 

[sapphirering]

I can't believe that there isn't a class system of some kind in the USA?

There is - but I think it's more based on wealth than family pedigree. From what I understand, upper class in the UK refers to aristocracy and is not necessarily tied to wealth. In the US, the upper class are the folks with the most bucks, in most cases anyway.

 

[Gypsy]

The teeth thing is a change for the good. I have to say. The rest is just funny to me. The way society chooses to constrain itself. I hate being told what to do, what to think, where to go. I would break out in hives by the constrictions in a day. Glad that foreigners are exempt.

There is a class system. Especially in the South and the Northern East Coast. Both have "societies". But it's one of those things that if you aren't part of it, you don't care about it. And even if you could be part of it by virtue of wealth or whatever... you don't necessarily see it as a good thing to belong.

My roomate in Law school was upper class. Related to the Vanderbilts. Trust fund, huge family ranch in Montana, Junior League, preferred emerald cut three stone (ctw 2 carats) and paid for a 5k watch that looked like a Seiko as a present to herself (I don't remember the brand, I just thought it was silly to spend that money and have it look like a 50 dollar watch). She was cared about quality and did buy brands but not in an ostentatious way. She would NEVER wear anything with a visible logo or put something over a chair so the band showed. But when we went shopping it was always to Burberrys or whatever. And she did mend and wear. But also bought LOTS of new too.

Seemed too confining to me. And she was often torn about things she was "supposed" to do and like and things she REALLY wanted to do and like.

She married a lovely Jewish boy. Also with a trust fund. But the Jewish thing was a scandal for her mom, but no one cared as she was being a snot and was an unpleasant woman anyway. Has a passel of kids and stays home with them. Her husband manages a hedge funds.

What she WANTED to do won, in the end. She married the man she loved not some person that was perfect for her 'class' on paper. And I'm proud of her for that.

 

[onedrop]

I can't believe that there isn't a class system of some kind in the USA?

There is - but I think it's more based on wealth than family pedigree. From what I understand, upper class in the UK refers to aristocracy and is not necessarily tied to wealth. In the US, the upper class are the folks with the most bucks, in most cases anyway.

Gypsy beat me to the punch, but I was going to say that I think that class being based on wealth alone might be a regional thing? I have noticed that in some regions of the U.S., your name or the family you come from are sometimes more important than the money issue. Perhaps the two (money and class) go hand in hand, but there are still a lot of people out there that take pride in the fact that their families are in the social register of a particular city, came over on the Mayflower, etc., rather than how much money they have.

I have also noticed that many people in these same families that have name recognition don't advertise their wealth much. I can think of a few that I have come into contact with that dress without regard to labels, don't drive fancy cars, and are just very low key.

 

[Gypsy]

Also it much easier to be a part of these societies then the upper classes of the UK. You can marry in, and you aren't always 'other' unless there is something about you personally that sets you apart and keeps you there. You go to the right school and meet the right people and marry the right person, you are in. Even if you don't use the right fork, and especially if you have the money, or the education to make it. Within a generation you can be part of the upper class crowd. Not Junior League. But your kids can be, if your spouse is. It's just not the same.

Oh and Patek Phillipe was the brand of my roomate's watch. And there were a TON of nice, understated designs by them that didn't look like a Seiko she just liked the Seiko look alike. I would have saved the money and bought the Seiko if that's the design I wanted.

 

[Pandora II]

The thing is that you don't have to worry or think about anything - unless you are trying to pass yourself off as something you aren't - you just say and do what you want.

Also none of us are conciously weighing things up - you just do it automatically, not as anything pro or anti the person.

If someone new posts here, we can all assume certain things about that person based on whether or not they write using proper spelling, grammar and punctuation and the vocabulary that they use. It doesn't indicate how wealthy they are or whether you will like them more or less, but it will give you a decent amount of information about the probable background and educational level of the person.

It is also more likely that someone who writes in proper paragraphs with attention to grammar and spelling will feel more comfortable here than someone who would struggle with such things. Just as we would struggle in a forum where text-speak was the norm.

Translate that into someone struggling over which knife or fork to use at a dinner party and you can see that there isn't a great deal of difference.

 

[Circe]

I can't believe that there isn't a class system of some kind in the USA?

It exists, but it depends on a fairly complex system of interlocking factors including but not limited to wealth, education, and ethnic background. I'm a first generation immigrant from a family that arrived here with a sum total of fifty (borrowed) bucks; I earned a Ph.D and am generally classed as "articulate".; and when I complained to a friend about feeling out-of-place at business shindigs, she looked at me blankly and said, "Hon, you're a vivid Jewish girl in a land of WASPs; own it."

I do feel like being from another culture gives me a little bit of an out in terms of conforming, both here and in England and Sweden (though I'll admit that I felt somehow out-of-place in France in a way I couldn't put my finger on): given a lot of the stereotypes about Russians - opulence, we swim in it!, to quote the tiny-giraffe commercial - I'd have to rock some pretty big rocks in order to hit outre in my sub-culture. And as an academic ... while people probably assume a lot of what I'm wearing is fake, again, it'd have to be pretty extreme to raise any eyebrows. The benefits to living at the fringe!

But in terms of general American society ... a recent study showed that something like 80% of the population identified as middle class. That makes us largely aspirational, I think, in a way that's foreign to most societies: our poor feel on the verge of success, our moderately wealthy feel like they have an awful lot to prove if they want to belong. Makes big, shiny diamonds as shorthand signifiers of status very appealing all-around ....

 

[Gypsy]

The thing is that you don't have to worry or think about anything - unless you are trying to pass yourself off as something you aren't - you just say and do what you want.

Also none of us are conciously weighing things up - you just do it automatically, not as anything pro or anti the person.

If someone new posts here, we can all assume certain things about that person based on whether or not they write using proper spelling, grammar and punctuation and the vocabulary that they use. It doesn't indicate how wealthy they are or whether you will like them more or less, but it will give you a decent amount of information about the probable background and educational level of the person.

It is also more likely that someone who writes in proper paragraphs with attention to grammar and spelling will feel more comfortable here than someone who would struggle with such things. Just as we would struggle in a forum where text-speak was the norm.

Translate that into someone struggling over which knife or fork to use at a dinner party and you can see that there isn't a great deal of difference.

That's one perspective, sure. I don't think it's entirely accurate though. Even in the UK fiction I read there is a consciousness a "I feel more comfortable with people who talk and speak just like me" than there is here. Especially in CA. I've seen what you are talking about, with my roommate's family, her 'same social class' friends and it's limiting if you aren't used to it. And even if you are (my roommate certainly found it that way once she realized there was an alternative to that way of thought). Sure, if you're used to it you don't find it limiting. But really, Pandora, it's not like you've experienced anything else so you don't really know the difference. If you lived in the US for a good length of time you would see just how different it is.

Just the slight diction between Pardon and What... you guys are looking for differences. Not for similarities. I like to think that in the US, and at least for me and my friends, we look for similarities and overlook silly differences like whether or not a person uses Pardon or What. I don't even KNOW what my friends say when they reference the bathroom. I have no idea if my best friends use toilet or lavatory or bathroom. I don't think she notices what word I use either. I just don't care. Her diction tells me NOTHING about her heart, her values or HER, the parts of her I care about and I trust and depend on and enjoy.

I certainly don't judge posters on whether or not they use What or Pardon. You are talking minute differences and comparing them to the difference between using grammar and complete sentences and not using them. Not comparable. I am an English major that butchers grammar all the time. I don't think anyone here has a CLUE about my 'class' or background from it-- or even cares about my background as related to my diction.

 

[sapphirering]

I can't believe that there isn't a class system of some kind in the USA?

There is - but I think it's more based on wealth than family pedigree. From what I understand, upper class in the UK refers to aristocracy and is not necessarily tied to wealth. In the US, the upper class are the folks with the most bucks, in most cases anyway.

Gypsy beat me to the punch, but I was going to say that I think that class being based on wealth alone might be a regional thing? I have noticed that in some regions of the U.S., your name or the family you come from are sometimes more important than the money issue. Perhaps the two (money and class) go hand in hand, but there are still a lot of people out there that take pride in the fact that their families are in the social register of a particular city, came over on the Mayflower, etc., rather than how much money they have.

I have also noticed that many people in these same families that have name recognition don't advertise their wealth much. I can think of a few that I have come into contact with that dress without regard to labels, don't drive fancy cars, and are just very low key.

I agree onedrop (and also Gypsy) that it's not just wealth alone that determines class in the US. But I should have clarified that all the upper class families that one thinks about in the US - Rockefeller, Carnegie, Getty, etc. - they all made their money first before they became the upper class. It's not tied to whether you're descended from Richard III or whether you're an earl or a baron.

 

[Black Jade]

[quote="onedropGypsy beat me to the punch, but I was going to say that I think that class being based on wealth alone might be a regional thing? I have noticed that in some regions of the U.S., your name or the family you come from are sometimes more important than the money issue. Perhaps the two (money and class) go hand in hand, but there are still a lot of people out there that take pride in the fact that their families are in the social register of a particular city, came over on the Mayflower, etc., rather than how much money they have.

I have also noticed that many people in these same families that have name recognition don't advertise their wealth much. I can think of a few that I have come into contact with that dress without regard to labels, don't drive fancy cars, and are just very low key.[/quote]

New England.
I know a lot of these people due to the school I went to. I am not one of them because you can never be one of them unless you are born into it, but they are friendly with lots of people who are not 'one of them'. If you have something to offer in terms of intellectual companionship or talent and if you think well of yourself as you are and are not sucking up to them in some way.. They do not respect you one bit for having money and definitely not for showing money off.
But then, I don't respect people for showing money off, either. Especially if, as all too often in the US, they don't really HAVE money. All too often here, going through all social classes from Wall Street bankers down to welfare moms, people in the US seem to be about appearing to have money that they don't have, spending on credit, being in debt and valuing things for the label on them while not recognizing what quality is even when it smacks them in the face. With no sense of self or value for self. I don't have a problem with fixing your teeth, but it goes way beyond that--fixing nose, bust, liposuction, etc. etc. rather than working on the INSIDE.
I don't want to go around with holes in my clothes but I would rather wear an old cotton blouse that was well made and comfortable than a brand new cotton-poly one with the serged seams and the tacky made-in-China quality that is meant to be thrown out after one season. And as for rejecting a 'family' ring in favor of a new one, I don't understand it at all.
Don't get me wrong, I love the US and am not moving to Britain any time soon (nice place to visit) and the sort of snobbism that cuts Kate Middleton down is absurd. But I do think the vast majority of Americans can be too much about the 'latest' and the 'newest' and the 'what the Hollywood star du jour wore in the latest tabloid pics.' Maybe there could be a happy medium?

 

[Pandora II]

The thing is that you don't have to worry or think about anything - unless you are trying to pass yourself off as something you aren't - you just say and do what you want.

Also none of us are conciously weighing things up - you just do it automatically, not as anything pro or anti the person.

If someone new posts here, we can all assume certain things about that person based on whether or not they write using proper spelling, grammar and punctuation and the vocabulary that they use. It doesn't indicate how wealthy they are or whether you will like them more or less, but it will give you a decent amount of information about the probable background and educational level of the person.

It is also more likely that someone who writes in proper paragraphs with attention to grammar and spelling will feel more comfortable here than someone who would struggle with such things. Just as we would struggle in a forum where text-speak was the norm.

Translate that into someone struggling over which knife or fork to use at a dinner party and you can see that there isn't a great deal of difference.

That's one perspective, sure. I don't think it's entirely accurate though. Even in the UK fiction I read there is a consciousness a "I feel more comfortable with people who talk and speak just like me" than there is here. Especially in CA. I've seen what you are talking about, with my roommate's family, her 'same social class' friends and it's limiting if you aren't used to it. And even if you are (my roommate certainly found it that way once she realized there was an alternative to that way of thought). Sure, if you're used to it you don't find it limiting. But really, Pandora, it's not like you've experienced anything else so you don't really know the difference. If you lived in the US for a good length of time you would see just how different it is.

Just the slight diction between Pardon and What... you guys are looking for differences. Not for similarities. I like to think that in the US, and at least for me and my friends, we look for similarities and overlook silly differences like whether or not a person uses Pardon or What. I don't even KNOW what my friends say when they reference the bathroom. I have no idea is Neatfreak uses toilet or lavatory or bathroom. I don't think she notices what word I use either.

I certainly don't judge posters on whether or not they use What or Pardon. You are talking minute differences and comparing them to the difference between using grammar and complete sentences and not using them. Not comparable. I am an English major that butchers grammar all the time. I don't think anyone here has a CLUE about my 'class' or background from it-- or even cares about my background as related to my diction.

I definitely feel more comfortable being married to someone who talks and speaks just like I do, but it doesn't mean that I don't have lots of friends or colleagues who don't. My social group is extremely diverse.

I didn't grow up in Britain and have lived in 4 other countries so I would say that I do see the difference - as I said in my other post, it's extremely different in Italy. It was also interesting living in a country where although your family background was very important people couldn't place me because my family were in the UK and not there to be scrutinized!

I didn't care that 90% of the people I worked with said pardon or toilet - but I wouldn't chose to say it myself and I'm sure they all made definite assumptions about me based on the fact that I didn't use those words. But it really is a very, very minor point in a relationship as a whole.

I guess it's just something that you grow up with in the UK whether you like it or not, and again whether you like it or not it will make a difference - that difference may or may not be advantageous. I didn't believe it and fought against it for 7 years, but the guy I was living with, was completely in love with and thought I might marry could not get past certain aspects of my background and I found that both unfair and very hurtful - and yes he said toilet and pardon and I didn't care.

The point I made about judging things from someone's post has nothing to do with their class - it was merely to demonstrate that we will all make some kind of assumption about a person based on something as simple as whether they use proper language or text-speak, probably without even thinking about it. There have been whole threads here in the past on this, and I do think that you will hazard a guess that someone who writes very eloquently will have at least finished High School or at least places a certain value on education.

 

[Smith1940]

So many good points!

Pandora's point about reverse snobbery is a good one, regarding her daughter's experiences. My nephew is doomed to experience reverse snobbery as a grown-up, just because he goes to Eton. And we all know the House of Lords has gone downhill - Lord Sugar! A friend of my husband's is on the Privy Council, but I have no idea what that's like. I imagine it's pretty class-bound and I imagine that Sugar would never make the grade!

I like the freer life of the US. We are members of St. Botolph's club in Boston, and the Hurlingham in London, but I never go - well, about twice a year - because I can't stand all that Mayflower rubbish (speaking for the former). I feel a little uncomfortable at those places because I do think that people are judging others, at least more often than happens in a non-club environment.

Gypsy - you know when you said we are just looking for differences re. "what" and "pardon"? Well, that's what I mean when I said it's difficult to explain to someone not from the UK just how class-bound the place is. Like Pandora said, if you were brought up in the UK it's absolutely automatic to notice these things - you do not seek them out, they hit you in the face. It's a language that has been instilled since birth and you just can't un-learn it. It's like training yourself not to notice the weather. We are not listening out for it, but we can't help but hear it, because it's our language of cultural clues. It must all sound very odd to someone who's never lived here. So must kings and queens. You must understand that Britain has royalty, and basically no-one is good enough for anyone else - unless you are an actual princess!

Occasionally in the US, I've had bad reactions to the way I speak. People just hear a bit of ERP and react negatively. I know a lady who has lived in the US for 50 years, and she does not have a trace of a US accent. She said that sometimes people bristle when she speaks. There are some real, serious snobs in certain circles here in Boston, at least at the club, and I think they feel afraid that I might "out-posh" them, merely by virtue of being English. It's SO silly! I can hardly help the way I speak, having lived in England until the age of 32! Oh yes, xenophobia is alive and well, wherever you live - even in the land of the free!

 

[Smith1940]

Pandora and I were posting at the same time - OK Pandora, I now see that you didn't grow up in the UK! Pity about your former boyfriend - a pure case of reverse snobbery! How awful.

It's late in the UK! Can't you sleep?

 

[TravelingGal]

Oh, and can I just add that I have tried to eat with my left hand holding the fork, but it is SO HARD for me! I have to switch my fork to the right hand and I'm always self conscious about it. And my husband and his parents eat with the fork faced down. Instead of piercing the fork into the food or shoveling it up, they use the knife to push the food on the back of the fork, and then they put the fork to their mouth.

Very inefficient in my view.

eta: My MIL has a three stone ring that totals maybe .15 ct, tops. I don't think it's ever occurred to her to upgrade, enough though they can afford to buy a paper weight!

It's very efficient, especially if you know the ORDER of how to put your food on the fork. Like binder, then meat, etc.

When I first went to Australia, many years ago, I saw people eating that way and decided to try it while I was there. It definitely got easier.

Then a couple of years later, I met TGuy in a hostel. At that point, I was sort of all the place with the knife and fork..I could eat with the fork in my left, but not overly well, and would do things like flip the fork over tines up and scoop rice or whatever into it with my left hand (which is the "wrong" hand, obviously). Well, I was doing just that when my left hand wigged out and flung rice all over me. This is the FIRST night TGuy and I met. He just observed very dryly "You're not that good with that, are you." Embarrassed, I said, "No, but I can eat anything with chopsticks very easily."

Now I'm pretty darn good...but depends what I'm eating. Salad gets eaten with just the fork, right hand. Mostly the same for pasta. But meat and potatoes or whatever gets eaten with fork in left, knife in right with no switching.

 

[webdiva]

Everyone I know in LA wears a lot of "stuff". Probably in most places in the world, we look crass even though it's a simple ring on each finger, earrings, watch and a necklace. But that's why "I love L.A. "

Speaking of "classes" and LA, I love this fascinating old fact about LA : back in the 1920s and 30s LA "old money" lived in Hancock Park, and rejected the "nouveau riche" (such as movie stars like Mary Pickford and Douglas Fairbanks!) buying into their neighborhood - which is part of why Beverly Hills was built up! So glad that class structure collapsed and LA is the happy, welcoming place it is today! Canada very much has vestiges of the british reserve and class structure <shudder>.

 

[Pandora II]

So many good points!

Pandora's point about reverse snobbery is a good one, regarding her daughter's experiences. My nephew is doomed to experience reverse snobbery as a grown-up, just because he goes to Eton. And we all know the House of Lords has gone downhill - Lord Sugar! A friend of my husband's is on the Privy Council, but I have no idea what that's like. I imagine it's pretty class-bound and I imagine that Sugar would never make the grade!

I like the freer life of the US. We are members of St. Botolph's club in Boston, and the Hurlingham in London, but I never go - well, about twice a year - because I can't stand all that Mayflower rubbish (speaking for the former). I feel a little uncomfortable at those places because I do think that people are judging others, at least more often than happens in a non-club environment.

Gypsy - you know when you said we are just looking for differences re. "what" and "pardon"? Well, that's what I mean when I said it's difficult to explain to someone not from the UK just how class-bound the place is. Like Pandora said, if you were brought up in the UK it's absolutely automatic to notice these things - you do not seek them out, they hit you in the face. It's a language that has been instilled since birth and you just can't un-learn it. It's like training yourself not to notice the weather. We are not listening out for it, but we can't help but hear it, because it's our language of cultural clues. It must all sound very odd to someone who's never lived here. So must kings and queens. You must understand that Britain has royalty, and basically no-one is good enough for anyone else - unless you are an actual princess!

Occasionally in the US, I've had bad reactions to the way I speak. People just hear a bit of ERP and react negatively. I know a lady who has lived in the US for 50 years, and she does not have a trace of a US accent. She said that sometimes people bristle when she speaks. There are some real, serious snobs in certain circles here in Boston, at least at the club, and I think they feel afraid that I might out-posh them, merely by virtue of being English. It's SO silly! I can hardly help the way I speak, having lived in England until the age of 32! Oh yes, xenophobia is alive and well, wherever you live - even in the land of the free!

The vast majority of Privy Councillors are politicians - anyone who is not a Peer but is referred to as 'The Right Honourable' is a Privy Councillor. The rest are very senior bishops, very senior judges etc.

I doubt Lord Sugar would become a Privy Councillor, not because of his background but because he is not exactly political active within the House.

You explain the way the clues work very well. It's just not possible not to notice - whether you are at the top or the bottom of society. And reverse snobbery is not only rampant it is also regarded as perfectly reasonable despite it being no easier to change your social class than to change the colour of your skin in the UK. I would have been much happier at a private secondary school where everyone talked the way I did than I was sticking out like a sore thumb and being ridiculed for my name and my accent at the school I did go to (and that was still a very selective boarding grammar so hardly rough).

It was interesting at University that despite a complete mix in the Halls, within a few weeks it was very much the private school and boarding school kids all sticking together and the State School kids sticking together - neither group had an issue with the other, it was a question of common ground and experiences.

Your nephew will definitely find being an Old Etonian both a curse and a blessing - but he'll have a damn good education!

 

[Pandora II]

Pandora and I were posting at the same time - OK Pandora, I now see that you didn't grow up in the UK! Pity about your former boyfriend - a pure case of reverse snobbery! How awful.

It's late in the UK! Can't you sleep?

Child is up and not wanting to sleep - so am also up...

The boyfriend thing was horrible. I remember a huge row because I bought a mutual friend's daughter the complete Beatrix Potter set as a Christening gift and he went nuts about giving people such ridiculous middle-class, snobby gifts and that I was deliberately demonstrating how much I looked down on them all by choosing. As far as I was concerned Beatrix Potter is equally loved by all in the UK. The chip on shoulder was very large!

Since we split up I conciously only dated men from similar backgrounds to mine.

 

[sapphirering]

Oh, and can I just add that I have tried to eat with my left hand holding the fork, but it is SO HARD for me! I have to switch my fork to the right hand and I'm always self conscious about it. And my husband and his parents eat with the fork faced down. Instead of piercing the fork into the food or shoveling it up, they use the knife to push the food on the back of the fork, and then they put the fork to their mouth.

Very inefficient in my view.

eta: My MIL has a three stone ring that totals maybe .15 ct, tops. I don't think it's ever occurred to her to upgrade, enough though they can afford to buy a paper weight!

It's very efficient, especially if you know the ORDER of how to put your food on the fork. Like binder, then meat, etc.

When I first went to Australia, many years ago, I saw people eating that way and decided to try it while I was there. It definitely got easier.

Then a couple of years later, I met TGuy in a hostel. At that point, I was sort of all the place with the knife and fork..I could eat with the fork in my left, but not overly well, and would do things like flip the fork over tines up and scoop rice or whatever into it with my left hand (which is the "wrong" hand, obviously). Well, I was doing just that when my left hand wigged out and flung rice all over me. This is the FIRST night TGuy and I met. He just observed very dryly "You're not that good with that, are you." Embarrassed, I said, "No, but I can eat anything with chopsticks very easily."

Now I'm pretty darn good...but depends what I'm eating. Salad gets eaten with just the fork, right hand. Mostly the same for pasta. But meat and potatoes or whatever gets eaten with fork in left, knife in right with no switching.

Oddly enough I do keep my fork on my left hand when we dine out. But it's almost subconscious that I switch the fork to my right hand when I dine with my ILs.

I think we all judge each other based on appearance, speech, etc. It's not just specific to one particular culture. We might not call it class difference in the US but the internal ranking and sizing up are definitely there. What makes the US unique is that it's much easier to be upwardly mobile than in other countries. In general.