Is Tiffanys really that much more expensive?

[Porkibear]

This thread is wayyyy to long to read through every page, but I''m assuming you have finally gotten to some sort of resolution about what to get for your future fiancee.

I''m just responding to the initial question: Is Tiffany''s THAT much more expensive? I personally think so. Here''s why:

I just visited the local Tiffany''s store with my girlfriend last night because I wanted to compare the diamond I just purchased with a retail store like Tiffany''s. I spent a hair over $10K for my diamond (1.31carat, G, VS2, X-X-X, HCA- 0.9). I subtracted the price of the platinum wedding band from the Tiffany''s prices for similar diamonds in weight, cut, clarity, color, etc. Retail prices they had listed were at approximately $19K just for the diamond-- and $20K with the band/setting. My girlfriend had also helped me shop for the diamond I purchased, so she was shocked when we saw these prices last night. My girlfriend also is into brand-name stuff, but after I showed her how I was researching diamonds with the HCA ratings and a lot of the info on PS, she actually convinced herself that it wasn''t worth the premium for a brand-name diamond.

Another thing regarding the 12 month interest free loan from Tiffanys-- I learned yesterday that they require 50% down, and also require you to make equal monthly payments at 0% interest for the remainder of the balance. After reading the first 2 pages of this thread, I didn''t think the bank CD account strategy would have worked very well.

Oh, btw...I ended up buying my diamond from a diamond dealer, and not online. I think a lot of Pricescope forum members are really into WF and GOG because of all the other diamond analysis reports they provide online. It really takes the guessing out of whether you are getting a great diamond. My strategy was to go through all of Blue Nile''s diamond inventory (based on my diamond criteria) and use the HCA to weed out bad stones. I also did the same with some B&M stores which gave me the diamond angles and %''s. I narrowed it down to 3 diamonds, and I chose the one that my own girlfriend felt was the *right* one.

Bottom line is that buying a diamond is an emotional decision. Kinda like buying a car: Some people don''t put a price-tag on what they truly want. But why not get more for your money when ultimately all these shiny little rocks come from the same place?

Anyway...good luck with the diamond search...

 

[spike13]

For some reason I''ve been thinking about this thread. With any fine products there are the commonly known high end brands that most everyone knows about, like Tiffany, and then there are the high end type of brands that only people "in the know" know about. Sort of like, everyone knows an Armani or Brooks Brothers suit holds a certain level of craftsmanship, but those who are really suit savvy know that a custom made finely tailored suit is even more luxurious.

From my research here and observing the expansion of the Tiffany''s brand into a national chain, in my mind Tiffany''s has lost a lot of it''s uniqueness and exclusivity. You can''t possibly produce high quality at the number of items they manufacture. And also the fact I had something engraved there and it came out terrible. They were very good about refunding me and making it right, but clearly the fact they even let it out of their shop said something to me about their standards...but I digress.

The point I''m trying to make, is that it seems to me, handpicking your stone and then having a true old school master like Leon Mege handcraft the setting using secret old world techniques, well that is just takes the piece to a whole other level. And while the average person might not be able to appreciate the quality or recognize the name, those who really know jewelry will.

In terms of it being more expensive, it all depends on which aspect of the experience you place value on and what is important to you.

 

[Imdanny]

You go Lisa!

 

[Imdanny]

Date: 4/23/2008 11:00:20 AM
Author: IronMikey Assuming that the setting is great -- I'd want the larger diamond. The only person who would know it's from Cartier would be me. The only person I'd probably ever tell would be my mom and she'd be pissed at you for spending that much money.

I hate to say this but her mother's (probable) reaction would hardly be unique. For every person who would be IMPRESSED by Cartier or Tiffany, there would be a whole lot of people who- not only would not be impressed- would have a JUDGMENTAL trip about it. Just something to consider.

And by the way- I took out the personal part of the quote I responded to with clapping. Go look if you don't believe me. I just agree with the sentiment of what was being said. I did not endorse the opinion that it applied to your girlfriend whom I don't know. Besides which, it's not my style to say mean things about people on posting boards anyway.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 4/25/2008 1:19:31 AM
Author: spike13
For some reason I''ve been thinking about this thread. With any fine products there are the commonly known high end brands that most everyone knows about, like Tiffany, and then there are the high end type of brands that only people ''in the know'' know about. Sort of like, everyone knows an Armani or Brooks Brothers suit holds a certain level of craftsmanship, but those who are really suit savvy know that a custom made finely tailored suit is even more luxurious.

From my research here and observing the expansion of the Tiffany''s brand into a national chain, in my mind Tiffany''s has lost a lot of it''s uniqueness and exclusivity. You can''t possibly produce high quality at the number of items they manufacture. And also the fact I had something engraved there and it came out terrible. They were very good about refunding me and making it right, but clearly the fact they even let it out of their shop said something to me about their standards...but I digress.

The point I''m trying to make, is that it seems to me, handpicking your stone and then having a true old school master like Leon Mege handcraft the setting using secret old world techniques, well that is just takes the piece to a whole other level. And while the average person might not be able to appreciate the quality or recognize the name, those who really know jewelry will.

In terms of it being more expensive, it all depends on which aspect of the experience you place value on and what is important to you.

Well said Spike.

But in the interest of those who wish to buy into the Tiffany or brand XYZ dream, one hopes they will respect the words written here and many other Web2.0 places and sharpen their game.

As a business, I loose clients to Tiffany, and I gain them. Those that I gain, or some who I lost but returned, share your complaints. Some have been Room1 clients who run global companies. But I fear that those who are jaded will be lost to jewels forever. I subscribe to the boat theory. You can not sink one end only of a boat. The Zales type market feeds me jewel junkies. If I bad mouth the quality of their goods, I risk loosing them and me potential clients.

I hope threads like this will help Tiffany (Cartier, HW et al) sharpen their game.

 

[StoneOakDan]

THE TRUTH SEEN BY AN OLD MAN!
As far as cut quality and which is better, that''s a subject that has been argued about for over 40 years that I have followed. You have G.I.A. that came out with their new Cut Grade Standards about two 1/2 years ago that established a Five Grade System (EXCELLENT-FAIR) and the A.G.S. system which keeps going thru small changes which uses an 11 step system (0-10). What both of these main two systems have in common is they both use the same device to measure the diamond which is a Sarin Machine. Sarin has a "knockoff" competitor company which has had several lawsuits over called Ogi but Sarin is the main supplier of cut measuring for the Diamond Industry. To be clear, Sain makes the computer which mesures and evaluates diamonds From Rough to Finished Cut Grade for both G.I.A., A.G.S., H.R.D., E.G.L., I.G.I.m and A.G.l. I am sure I missed someone or one of these companies might also use Ogi but that''s a start of what Sarin does. Sarin also manufactures the Grand Colorimeter, A Laser marker, a Laser Diamond Cutter, and several other products. Whether you want an AGS Cert.or a GIA cert., all the information is measured by Sarin and the Programs used are created by Sarin.

G.I.A. is a non-profit orginization created and funded for the education of the jewelry industry and A.G.S. is now an independant orginization with it''s roots formed from the better G.I.A. educated stores. The older "Ideal" based cut companies like Lazare Kaplan and the new Ideal company like "Hearts & Arrows" all claim that their cut is the best. Unfortunately, the final authority fo our business does not agree. In GIA ''s five year testing, they showed actual diamond to over 100 knowledgable diamond people and no one agrees. The best table size in a .60pt diamond is not the preferred table in a 3.00 carat size. Now, enters the computer age and you some real technical studies done done by the Russians who produce over 50% of D-E color rough and you end up with the study done by Octonus (www,octonus.ru) which is the basis of the Holloway ideal scope and the HCA. Really worth the time to read but it''s higly technical so you have been warned! I will add I really think the basic Ideal Scope shows in simple terms the brillance or light return of all diamonds, not just rounds. Now we have AGS and others, using a three color ring version which I find less than accurate and certainly hard to see and understand.

Confused and bored yet? All these experts saying oh this is better! Oh, this takes four times as long to cut. Let''s talk to the world''s finest cutters. Old dog''s like me, happen to have old friends and one of mine is one of the finest cutters in the world. SN has cut some the biggest, finest diamonds in the world. One I have seen is over 70. vivid yellow, VSI, with a letter from the Gem Trade LAB (GIA) that it was the biggest that they had graded at the time. One of his bigger customers in cutting is partners with Tiffany''s in their diamond site and actually cuts the Tiffany''s diamonds. I buy from CR time to time do buy some diamonds from them in large quanities before they send the stones to GIA. The couple of times I have done this, it''s lots of money and we agree of a price based on Rapaport at whatever it comes out from GIA. Last time I did this, all the diamonds were above 2 1/2 carats to 5 carats running in mid 6 figures and this was way before the last price increases of roughly 50% in the last year. The stones come out what they come out and one of the 4''s comes out as a J and I thought it was an I which is tons of money difference. Happy me as I just spent lots of money less because this was after GIA had their bump in the road and were being extra tough on the big guys.

Long story isn''t it. Bottom line is that all the Diamonds are graded on the same Sarin machine. In forty years, GIA has agreed that a certain large class on diamonds desire an "Excellent" cut. Me, I prefer the AGS cut grade system better (older) because it tells you were the diamond is off. Does a 57.6% table which falls into a AGS 1, a less beautiful diamond than a 57.5% table which is a zero.... NO. Can the trained eye detect a tenth of a degree difference, No. Get a protractor and plot out 360 degree lines then you back and divide them by 10 and now shring it to 6-9mm which is the size fo 1-2 1/2 carat stone. Oh, you can''t do it! In todays computer age, it has gotten all too technical and every seller is saying oh, this is the best and that''s the best. Of course, the true experts and authorities don''t agree. I am on my fourth upgrade from Sarin and have the largest, most expensive that machine that they make. I also have ever piece of equipment from the latest in Colorimeter, to five camera setup''s for different type of pictures, and more Rp. equipment than most ring manufactures. I trust the equipment and double check everything.

My advise, Trust the GIA & AGS cert''s. Every diamond seller worth his salt should have a Sarin machine. Get the actual Sarin report and compare the reports to the cert''s and have whomever supply you the AGS and GIA Sarin Reports. Lots of work, yes. For me, I also take the Idealscope pictures and theory, Internal pictures, Hearts & arrows theory and real pictures of every diamond. The question all comes up about EGL cert.s and I can buy it cheaper. From my expierence, they are off 2-5 grades. I have in my store a 1.34 EGL cert calles EGL Ideal, F SI2 and the diamond also has a GIA H I1 Very Good Cut. Same diamond and lots of difference. Is it right or 5 grades off. Send it to GIA and see what it really is.

You are not going to buy the best diamond for the cheapest price. Forget the sales pitch and compare the paper along with the aviable grading equipment that''s aviable in the industry. Oh, the salesman says they don''t work well, I can tell you from my expierence that the Sarin machine is deadly accurate and the colorimeter that I have agrees with GIA about 90% of the time. Yes, I do have master stones to compare and I have run thousands of stones thru the equipment.

Sorry to be so long winded but this is not a 2 second subject. I really can go on & on but I will cut it off for now.

Dan Dement

 

[Isabelle]

Date: 4/25/2008 1:57:28 PM
Author: StoneOakDan
THE TRUTH SEEN BY AN OLD MAN!

As far as cut quality and which is better, that''s a subject that has been argued about for over 40 years that I have followed. You have G.I.A. that came out with their new Cut Grade Standards about two 1/2 years ago that established a Five Grade System (EXCELLENT-FAIR) and the A.G.S. system which keeps going thru small changes which uses an 11 step system (0-10). What both of these main two systems have in common is they both use the same device to measure the diamond which is a Sarin Machine. Sarin has a ''knockoff'' competitor company which has had several lawsuits over called Ogi but Sarin is the main supplier of cut measuring for the Diamond Industry. To be clear, Sain makes the computer which mesures and evaluates diamonds From Rough to Finished Cut Grade for both G.I.A., A.G.S., H.R.D., E.G.L., I.G.I.m and A.G.l. I am sure I missed someone or one of these companies might also use Ogi but that''s a start of what Sarin does. Sarin also manufactures the Grand Colorimeter, A Laser marker, a Laser Diamond Cutter, and several other products. Whether you want an AGS Cert.or a GIA cert., all the information is measured by Sarin and the Programs used are created by Sarin.


G.I.A. is a non-profit orginization created and funded for the education of the jewelry industry and A.G.S. is now an independant orginization with it''s roots formed from the better G.I.A. educated stores. The older ''Ideal'' based cut companies like Lazare Kaplan and the new Ideal company like ''Hearts & Arrows'' all claim that their cut is the best. Unfortunately, the final authority fo our business does not agree. In GIA ''s five year testing, they showed actual diamond to over 100 knowledgable diamond people and no one agrees. The best table size in a .60pt diamond is not the preferred table in a 3.00 carat size. Now, enters the computer age and you some real technical studies done done by the Russians who produce over 50% of D-E color rough and you end up with the study done by Octonus (www,octonus.ru) which is the basis of the Holloway ideal scope and the HCA. Really worth the time to read but it''s higly technical so you have been warned! I will add I really think the basic Ideal Scope shows in simple terms the brillance or light return of all diamonds, not just rounds. Now we have AGS and others, using a three color ring version which I find less than accurate and certainly hard to see and understand.


Confused and bored yet? All these experts saying oh this is better! Oh, this takes four times as long to cut. Let''s talk to the world''s finest cutters. Old dog''s like me, happen to have old friends and one of mine is one of the finest cutters in the world. SN has cut some the biggest, finest diamonds in the world. One I have seen is over 70. vivid yellow, VSI, with a letter from the Gem Trade LAB (GIA) that it was the biggest that they had graded at the time. One of his bigger customers in cutting is partners with Tiffany''s in their diamond site and actually cuts the Tiffany''s diamonds. I buy from CR time to time do buy some diamonds from them in large quanities before they send the stones to GIA. The couple of times I have done this, it''s lots of money and we agree of a price based on Rapaport at whatever it comes out from GIA. Last time I did this, all the diamonds were above 2 1/2 carats to 5 carats running in mid 6 figures and this was way before the last price increases of roughly 50% in the last year. The stones come out what they come out and one of the 4''s comes out as a J and I thought it was an I which is tons of money difference. Happy me as I just spent lots of money less because this was after GIA had their bump in the road and were being extra tough on the big guys.


Long story isn''t it. Bottom line is that all the Diamonds are graded on the same Sarin machine. In forty years, GIA has agreed that a certain large class on diamonds desire an ''Excellent'' cut. Me, I prefer the AGS cut grade system better (older) because it tells you were the diamond is off. Does a 57.6% table which falls into a AGS 1, a less beautiful diamond than a 57.5% table which is a zero.... NO. Can the trained eye detect a tenth of a degree difference, No. Get a protractor and plot out 360 degree lines then you back and divide them by 10 and now shring it to 6-9mm which is the size fo 1-2 1/2 carat stone. Oh, you can''t do it! In todays computer age, it has gotten all too technical and every seller is saying oh, this is the best and that''s the best. Of course, the true experts and authorities don''t agree. I am on my fourth upgrade from Sarin and have the largest, most expensive that machine that they make. I also have ever piece of equipment from the latest in Colorimeter, to five camera setup''s for different type of pictures, and more Rp. equipment than most ring manufactures. I trust the equipment and double check everything.


My advise, Trust the GIA & AGS cert''s. Every diamond seller worth his salt should have a Sarin machine. Get the actual Sarin report and compare the reports to the cert''s and have whomever supply you the AGS and GIA Sarin Reports. Lots of work, yes. For me, I also take the Idealscope pictures and theory, Internal pictures, Hearts & arrows theory and real pictures of every diamond. The question all comes up about EGL cert.s and I can buy it cheaper. From my expierence, they are off 2-5 grades. I have in my store a 1.34 EGL cert calles EGL Ideal, F SI2 and the diamond also has a GIA H I1 Very Good Cut. Same diamond and lots of difference. Is it right or 5 grades off. Send it to GIA and see what it really is.


You are not going to buy the best diamond for the cheapest price. Forget the sales pitch and compare the paper along with the aviable grading equipment that''s aviable in the industry. Oh, the salesman says they don''t work well, I can tell you from my expierence that the Sarin machine is deadly accurate and the colorimeter that I have agrees with GIA about 90% of the time. Yes, I do have master stones to compare and I have run thousands of stones thru the equipment.


Sorry to be so long winded but this is not a 2 second subject. I really can go on & on but I will cut it off for now.


Dan Dement

This is actually one of the most insightful, and best posts, I have ever read on here. And it confirms what I suspected: there are different measurement scales, everyone claims theirs in the best, but in fact there is plenty of room for debate on that too. I feel comfortable relying on GIA or AGS, and even there you have to take into account personal characteristics of the diamond you are looking at in order to know for sure whether it''s comparable to another one or not.--Just as I thought. Thank you for the great post.

 

[diagem]

Date: 4/25/2008 1:57:28 PM
Author: StoneOakDan
THE TRUTH SEEN BY AN OLD MAN!
As far as cut quality and which is better, that''s a subject that has been argued about for over 40 years that I have followed. You have G.I.A. that came out with their new Cut Grade Standards about two 1/2 years ago that established a Five Grade System (EXCELLENT-FAIR) and the A.G.S. system which keeps going thru small changes which uses an 11 step system (0-10). What both of these main two systems have in common is they both use the same device to measure the diamond which is a Sarin Machine. Sarin has a ''knockoff'' competitor company which has had several lawsuits over called Ogi but Sarin is the main supplier of cut measuring for the Diamond Industry. To be clear, Sain makes the computer which mesures and evaluates diamonds From Rough to Finished Cut Grade for both G.I.A., A.G.S., H.R.D., E.G.L., I.G.I.m and A.G.l. I am sure I missed someone or one of these companies might also use Ogi but that''s a start of what Sarin does. Sarin also manufactures the Grand Colorimeter, A Laser marker, a Laser Diamond Cutter, and several other products. Whether you want an AGS Cert.or a GIA cert., all the information is measured by Sarin and the Programs used are created by Sarin.

G.I.A. is a non-profit orginization created and funded for the education of the jewelry industry and A.G.S. is now an independant orginization with it''s roots formed from the better G.I.A. educated stores. The older ''Ideal'' based cut companies like Lazare Kaplan and the new Ideal company like ''Hearts & Arrows'' all claim that their cut is the best. Unfortunately, the final authority fo our business does not agree. In GIA ''s five year testing, they showed actual diamond to over 100 knowledgable diamond people and no one agrees. The best table size in a .60pt diamond is not the preferred table in a 3.00 carat size. Now, enters the computer age and you some real technical studies done done by the Russians who produce over 50% of D-E color rough and you end up with the study done by Octonus (www,octonus.ru) which is the basis of the Holloway ideal scope and the HCA. Really worth the time to read but it''s higly technical so you have been warned! I will add I really think the basic Ideal Scope shows in simple terms the brillance or light return of all diamonds, not just rounds. Now we have AGS and others, using a three color ring version which I find less than accurate and certainly hard to see and understand.

Confused and bored yet? All these experts saying oh this is better! Oh, this takes four times as long to cut. Let''s talk to the world''s finest cutters. Old dog''s like me, happen to have old friends and one of mine is one of the finest cutters in the world. SN has cut some the biggest, finest diamonds in the world. One I have seen is over 70. vivid yellow, VSI, with a letter from the Gem Trade LAB (GIA) that it was the biggest that they had graded at the time. One of his bigger customers in cutting is partners with Tiffany''s in their diamond site and actually cuts the Tiffany''s diamonds. I buy from CR time to time do buy some diamonds from them in large quanities before they send the stones to GIA. The couple of times I have done this, it''s lots of money and we agree of a price based on Rapaport at whatever it comes out from GIA. Last time I did this, all the diamonds were above 2 1/2 carats to 5 carats running in mid 6 figures and this was way before the last price increases of roughly 50% in the last year. The stones come out what they come out and one of the 4''s comes out as a J and I thought it was an I which is tons of money difference. Happy me as I just spent lots of money less because this was after GIA had their bump in the road and were being extra tough on the big guys.

Long story isn''t it. Bottom line is that all the Diamonds are graded on the same Sarin machine. In forty years, GIA has agreed that a certain large class on diamonds desire an ''Excellent'' cut. Me, I prefer the AGS cut grade system better (older) because it tells you were the diamond is off. Does a 57.6% table which falls into a AGS 1, a less beautiful diamond than a 57.5% table which is a zero.... NO. Can the trained eye detect a tenth of a degree difference, No. Get a protractor and plot out 360 degree lines then you back and divide them by 10 and now shring it to 6-9mm which is the size fo 1-2 1/2 carat stone. Oh, you can''t do it! In todays computer age, it has gotten all too technical and every seller is saying oh, this is the best and that''s the best. Of course, the true experts and authorities don''t agree. I am on my fourth upgrade from Sarin and have the largest, most expensive that machine that they make. I also have ever piece of equipment from the latest in Colorimeter, to five camera setup''s for different type of pictures, and more Rp. equipment than most ring manufactures. I trust the equipment and double check everything.

My advise, Trust the GIA & AGS cert''s. Every diamond seller worth his salt should have a Sarin machine. Get the actual Sarin report and compare the reports to the cert''s and have whomever supply you the AGS and GIA Sarin Reports. Lots of work, yes. For me, I also take the Idealscope pictures and theory, Internal pictures, Hearts & arrows theory and real pictures of every diamond. The question all comes up about EGL cert.s and I can buy it cheaper. From my expierence, they are off 2-5 grades. I have in my store a 1.34 EGL cert calles EGL Ideal, F SI2 and the diamond also has a GIA H I1 Very Good Cut. Same diamond and lots of difference. Is it right or 5 grades off. Send it to GIA and see what it really is.

You are not going to buy the best diamond for the cheapest price. Forget the sales pitch and compare the paper along with the aviable grading equipment that''s aviable in the industry. Oh, the salesman says they don''t work well, I can tell you from my expierence that the Sarin machine is deadly accurate and the colorimeter that I have agrees with GIA about 90% of the time. Yes, I do have master stones to compare and I have run thousands of stones thru the equipment.

Sorry to be so long winded but this is not a 2 second subject. I really can go on & on but I will cut it off for now.

Dan Dement

Nice post...,

Do you happen to work for Sarin??

As per my experience..., when it comes to fancy shapes..., Sarin is way off the numbers when measuring for any form of accuracy! They might be a bit better than OGI..., but it does not matter since "accuracy" is the issue!

Makes you wonder about the accuracy of the numbers GIA and AGS records and base their calls on???

As far a rounds is concerned..., I couldnt comment as I dont deal or work with them...

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 4/25/2008 1:57:28 PM
Author: StoneOakDan
THE TRUTH SEEN BY AN OLD MAN!
As far as cut quality and which is better, that''s a subject that has been argued about for over 40 years that I have followed. You have G.I.A. that came out with their new Cut Grade Standards about two 1/2 years ago that established a Five Grade System (EXCELLENT-FAIR) and the A.G.S. system which keeps going thru small changes which uses an 11 step system (0-10). What both of these main two systems have in common is they both use the same device to measure the diamond which is a Sarin Machine. Sarin has a ''knockoff'' competitor company which has had several lawsuits over called Ogi but Sarin is the main supplier of cut measuring for the Diamond Industry. To be clear, Sain makes the computer which mesures and evaluates diamonds From Rough to Finished Cut Grade for both G.I.A., A.G.S., H.R.D., E.G.L., I.G.I.m and A.G.l. I am sure I missed someone or one of these companies might also use Ogi but that''s a start of what Sarin does. Sarin also manufactures the Grand Colorimeter, A Laser marker, a Laser Diamond Cutter, and several other products. Whether you want an AGS Cert.or a GIA cert., all the information is measured by Sarin and the Programs used are created by Sarin.

G.I.A. is a non-profit orginization created and funded for the education of the jewelry industry and A.G.S. is now an independant orginization with it''s roots formed from the better G.I.A. educated stores. The older ''Ideal'' based cut companies like Lazare Kaplan and the new Ideal company like ''Hearts & Arrows'' all claim that their cut is the best. Unfortunately, the final authority fo our business does not agree. In GIA ''s five year testing, they showed actual diamond to over 100 knowledgable diamond people and no one agrees. The best table size in a .60pt diamond is not the preferred table in a 3.00 carat size. Now, enters the computer age and you some real technical studies done done by the Russians who produce over 50% of D-E color rough and you end up with the study done by Octonus (www,octonus.ru) which is the basis of the Holloway ideal scope and the HCA. Really worth the time to read but it''s higly technical so you have been warned! I will add I really think the basic Ideal Scope shows in simple terms the brillance or light return of all diamonds, not just rounds. Now we have AGS and others, using a three color ring version which I find less than accurate and certainly hard to see and understand.

Confused and bored yet? All these experts saying oh this is better! Oh, this takes four times as long to cut. Let''s talk to the world''s finest cutters. Old dog''s like me, happen to have old friends and one of mine is one of the finest cutters in the world. SN has cut some the biggest, finest diamonds in the world. One I have seen is over 70. vivid yellow, VSI, with a letter from the Gem Trade LAB (GIA) that it was the biggest that they had graded at the time. One of his bigger customers in cutting is partners with Tiffany''s in their diamond site and actually cuts the Tiffany''s diamonds. I buy from CR time to time do buy some diamonds from them in large quanities before they send the stones to GIA. The couple of times I have done this, it''s lots of money and we agree of a price based on Rapaport at whatever it comes out from GIA. Last time I did this, all the diamonds were above 2 1/2 carats to 5 carats running in mid 6 figures and this was way before the last price increases of roughly 50% in the last year. The stones come out what they come out and one of the 4''s comes out as a J and I thought it was an I which is tons of money difference. Happy me as I just spent lots of money less because this was after GIA had their bump in the road and were being extra tough on the big guys.

Long story isn''t it. Bottom line is that all the Diamonds are graded on the same Sarin machine. In forty years, GIA has agreed that a certain large class on diamonds desire an ''Excellent'' cut. Me, I prefer the AGS cut grade system better (older) because it tells you were the diamond is off. Does a 57.6% table which falls into a AGS 1, a less beautiful diamond than a 57.5% table which is a zero.... NO. Can the trained eye detect a tenth of a degree difference, No. Get a protractor and plot out 360 degree lines then you back and divide them by 10 and now shring it to 6-9mm which is the size fo 1-2 1/2 carat stone. Oh, you can''t do it! In todays computer age, it has gotten all too technical and every seller is saying oh, this is the best and that''s the best. Of course, the true experts and authorities don''t agree. I am on my fourth upgrade from Sarin and have the largest, most expensive that machine that they make. I also have ever piece of equipment from the latest in Colorimeter, to five camera setup''s for different type of pictures, and more Rp. equipment than most ring manufactures. I trust the equipment and double check everything.

My advise, Trust the GIA & AGS cert''s. Every diamond seller worth his salt should have a Sarin machine. Get the actual Sarin report and compare the reports to the cert''s and have whomever supply you the AGS and GIA Sarin Reports. Lots of work, yes. For me, I also take the Idealscope pictures and theory, Internal pictures, Hearts & arrows theory and real pictures of every diamond. The question all comes up about EGL cert.s and I can buy it cheaper. From my expierence, they are off 2-5 grades. I have in my store a 1.34 EGL cert calles EGL Ideal, F SI2 and the diamond also has a GIA H I1 Very Good Cut. Same diamond and lots of difference. Is it right or 5 grades off. Send it to GIA and see what it really is.

You are not going to buy the best diamond for the cheapest price. Forget the sales pitch and compare the paper along with the aviable grading equipment that''s aviable in the industry. Oh, the salesman says they don''t work well, I can tell you from my expierence that the Sarin machine is deadly accurate and the colorimeter that I have agrees with GIA about 90% of the time. Yes, I do have master stones to compare and I have run thousands of stones thru the equipment.

Sorry to be so long winded but this is not a 2 second subject. I really can go on & on but I will cut it off for now.

Dan Dement

Hi Dan,
You going to vegas?
Would be nice to catch up.
BTW some of your knowledge is out of date.
Hang around and you will pick it up.but for e.g. AGS no longer cares about the table size - if you can cut a stone with a 47% or a 65% that scores well on their performance analysis that in complex stones is scanned on their Helium scanners, then it will get AGS 0

 

[wawatu]

garry, is that because AGS is becoming more lenient with their grading or can larger tables have very very good cutting and performance as well.

my appraiser thinks that the GIA has become more lenient/generous with their EX symmetry and polish comparing to before

 

[diagem]

Date: 4/26/2008 12:53:10 AM
Author: wawatu
garry, is that because AGS is becoming more lenient with their grading or can larger tables have very very good cutting and performance as well.

my appraiser thinks that the GIA has become more lenient/generous with their EX symmetry and polish comparing to before

wawatu..., I imagine that as research moves ahead (at a rather fast rate)..., things change..., and results may and will alter!

In my opinion..., Lab''s are becoming more (as it looks to many) lenient as a result of the fact that one can''t lock the parameters of beauty!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 4/26/2008 12:53:10 AM
Author: wawatu
garry, is that because AGS is becoming more lenient with their grading or can larger tables have very very good cutting and performance as well.

my appraiser thinks that the GIA has become more lenient/generous with their EX symmetry and polish comparing to before

N6 Wawata - simply, they dropped the silly proportion based method a couple years back and went ray trace performance and proportion rules.
Peter Yantzer said "if people can cut a diamond that gets our performance criteria, then it can have any proportion set as long as it meets our spread and durability criteria etc" or words to that effect." 47% is theortecally possible for a table on the spread and durability rules, and can meet the light performance criteria based on models.

I have no comment on GIA''s sym and polish, but in my experiance sym and pol cause far less ugly diamonds than bad propotrion combinations

 

[diagem]

Date: 4/26/2008 3:39:14 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 4/26/2008 12:53:10 AM
Author: wawatu
garry, is that because AGS is becoming more lenient with their grading or can larger tables have very very good cutting and performance as well.

my appraiser thinks that the GIA has become more lenient/generous with their EX symmetry and polish comparing to before

N6 Wawata - simply, they dropped the silly proportion based method a couple years back and went ray trace performance and proportion rules.
Peter Yantzer said ''if people can cut a diamond that gets our performance criteria, then it can have any proportion set as long as it meets our spread and durability criteria etc'' or words to that effect.'' 47% is theortecally possible for a table on the spread and durability rules, and can meet the light performance criteria based on models.

I have no comment on GIA''s sym and polish, but in my experiance sym and pol cause far less ugly diamonds than bad propotrion combinations

Garry..., smaller than 47% is theoretically not?

 

[beebrisk]

I compared my Mark T/ERD ring to a very similar one at Tiffs.

Same TCW.
My Ring "G" Color, Tiff''s "H" (and there actually was a discernible difference in color)
My Ring: SI2 (eye clean) Tiff''s "VS2"
My ring was actually heavier and more "substantial" since Tiff used a thinner, lighter Platinum shank.
Tiff''s Ring: $7000.00 more!
Not to mention the sales tax, which would have come to an additional $585.00
I''d look for a beauty from a PS Vendor and save the additional $$ for the wedding, honeymoon, or a first anniversary gift hidden in a pretty blue box!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 4/26/2008 4:53:15 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 4/26/2008 3:39:14 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 4/26/2008 12:53:10 AM
Author: wawatu
garry, is that because AGS is becoming more lenient with their grading or can larger tables have very very good cutting and performance as well.

my appraiser thinks that the GIA has become more lenient/generous with their EX symmetry and polish comparing to before

N6 Wawata - simply, they dropped the silly proportion based method a couple years back and went ray trace performance and proportion rules.
Peter Yantzer said ''if people can cut a diamond that gets our performance criteria, then it can have any proportion set as long as it meets our spread and durability criteria etc'' or words to that effect.'' 47% is theortecally possible for a table on the spread and durability rules, and can meet the light performance criteria based on models.

I have no comment on GIA''s sym and polish, but in my experiance sym and pol cause far less ugly diamonds than bad propotrion combinations

Garry..., smaller than 47% is theoretically not?

tHE WEIGHT RATIO takes a hit DG, but the light performance apparently holds up.

Mind you the ''verticle spread'' makes such a diamond ''stand out'' like Dolly Parton

 

[IronMikey]

Date: 4/26/2008 8:36:29 AM
Author: beebrisk
I compared my Mark T/ERD ring to a very similar one at Tiffs.


Same TCW.

My Ring ''G'' Color, Tiff''s ''H'' (and there actually was a discernible difference in color)

My Ring: SI2 (eye clean) Tiff''s ''VS2''

My ring was actually heavier and more ''substantial'' since Tiff used a thinner, lighter Platinum shank.

Tiff''s Ring: $7000.00 more!

Not to mention the sales tax, which would have come to an additional $585.00

I''d look for a beauty from a PS Vendor and save the additional $$ for the wedding, honeymoon, or a first anniversary gift hidden in a pretty blue box!

In what way is an SI2 very similar to a VS2. Even if they''re both eye clean and all that isn''t a fair comparison by any stretch. I''m no expert but I''m sure the VS2 rating adds a decent amount of value to any diamond (even another one you could purchase from ERD).

Seriously though, you need to pay tax on your purchase but I won''t tell if you don''t.

I totally dig you''re willingness to save the money but I don''t know if your case gives the best example of what the true premium you pay would be.

 

[diagem]

Date: 4/27/2008 8:04:01 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 4/26/2008 4:53:15 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 4/26/2008 3:39:14 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 4/26/2008 12:53:10 AM
Author: wawatu
garry, is that because AGS is becoming more lenient with their grading or can larger tables have very very good cutting and performance as well.

my appraiser thinks that the GIA has become more lenient/generous with their EX symmetry and polish comparing to before

N6 Wawata - simply, they dropped the silly proportion based method a couple years back and went ray trace performance and proportion rules.
Peter Yantzer said ''if people can cut a diamond that gets our performance criteria, then it can have any proportion set as long as it meets our spread and durability criteria etc'' or words to that effect.'' 47% is theortecally possible for a table on the spread and durability rules, and can meet the light performance criteria based on models.

I have no comment on GIA''s sym and polish, but in my experiance sym and pol cause far less ugly diamonds than bad propotrion combinations

Garry..., smaller than 47% is theoretically not?

tHE WEIGHT RATIO takes a hit DG, but the light performance apparently holds up.

Mind you the ''verticle spread'' makes such a diamond ''stand out'' like Dolly Parton

New Diamond slang??? Mind you I like the extreme vertical spread!

I might adopt that one...lol!
I just hope some women''s group will not catch you in a dark alley for that one

.


Now for my next question..., (and you should know one''s coming up!)
What if you achieve a "smaller than 47% table" by making CA a bit shallow and steeping the PA?
I know its not you favorite combo''s..., but can it work...?

Or for it to work it must be "A LA DP"?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 4/28/2008 12:49:36 AM
Author: DiaGem

Now for my next question..., (and you should know one's coming up!)
What if you achieve a 'smaller than 47% table' by making CA a bit shallow and steeping the PA?
I know its not you favorite combo's..., but can it work...?

40% table that should get AGS0
I will see if I can get it ran thru the AGS software on tue or wed.
If it dont it will be for table contrast.

 

[diagem]

Date: 4/28/2008 1:36:34 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 4/28/2008 12:49:36 AM
Author: DiaGem

Now for my next question..., (and you should know one''s coming up!)
What if you achieve a ''smaller than 47% table'' by making CA a bit shallow and steeping the PA?
I know its not you favorite combo''s..., but can it work...?

40% table that should get AGS0
I will see if I can get it ran thru the AGS software on tue or wed.
If it dont it will be for table contrast.

Interesting... I am going to open a new thread for this as I dont want to Hijack!

 

[diagem]

Date: 4/28/2008 2:56:53 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 4/28/2008 1:36:34 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 4/28/2008 12:49:36 AM
Author: DiaGem

Now for my next question..., (and you should know one''s coming up!)
What if you achieve a ''smaller than 47% table'' by making CA a bit shallow and steeping the PA?
I know its not you favorite combo''s..., but can it work...?

40% table that should get AGS0
I will see if I can get it ran thru the AGS software on tue or wed.
If it dont it will be for table contrast.

Interesting... I am going to open a new thread for this as I dont want to Hijack!

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/the-extremes-which-fall-into-top-diamond-appearances.84111/