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Is it worth it to pay extra for G or H over I?

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wimpwgn

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In my previous post, I asked weather an H&A cut is noticeably different from typical AGS0 cut by naked eye, and I got the answer I was looking for.

Now I want to make a separate post specifically regarding color. The diamond I''m search for is around 1.15-1.35 carat, AGS 0 round cut, VS2 or SI1, and color ????

I will be selecting a white gold/platinum setting, not a simple solitaire, but more of a channel set style. When wearing the ring, will an "I" color diamond this size be noticeably yellow? Is H or G preferred over I for white metal rings? Does it justify the 10% price difference?

Thank you!
 

diamondseeker2006

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I compromised and went for H. H VS2 was my bottom. But that is personal choice and no one can tell you what color is worth except yourself.
 

winternight

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I could see a big difference between a G and an I in person. I suggest you look at some stones in person so that you can make an informed choice. The pictures on-line aren''t really as helpful as seeing it in person IMO. Its a personal choice though. The better the cut, the less you''ll see yellow but I could see a difference in very well cut stones. Some people can''t or don''t care.
 

Midway

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Garry,

What about for the size that he''s considering, between 1 and 1.5 carots. I know that''s not much bigger than a 1 carot, but is there some cut-off you have for that size diamond. I know color is largely about personal preference, but I have a similar dilemma. Didn''t initially want to go lower than a G, now considering a well-cut H in the 1.5 range. Just wanted to know your thoughts.
 

kenny

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Yes, well-cut diamonds face up whiter than poorly cut.
But perhaps 35% of the time I see my diamond it is not face up.
Realistically, I end up looking through the side of the stone very often.

So it may depend on your setting.
I have a tension setting.
That means my stone is 100% naked from a side view.
But you may get a full bezel, in which the side view is 100% covered.
If so you may go with a lower color.

As others have said color is personal.
There is no correct color for a size.
Sure, larger stones hold more color but whether a higher color "is worth" 10% more only you can say.

Go out and look at several stones in person.
You must find your own comfort level.
Mine won't work for you.
 

kcoursolle

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I can see the difference between a G and an I, but the difference doesn''t *bother* me. If you want an icey looking stone I would stay with an H or higher, but if the warmth doesn''t bother you, then an I would be fine.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Date: 12/19/2006 12:44:13 AM
Author: Midway
Garry,

What about for the size that he''s considering, between 1 and 1.5 carots. I know that''s not much bigger than a 1 carot, but is there some cut-off you have for that size diamond. I know color is largely about personal preference, but I have a similar dilemma. Didn''t initially want to go lower than a G, now considering a well-cut H in the 1.5 range. Just wanted to know your thoughts.
look for a stone medium to strong blue fluoro
 

niceice

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Date: 12/19/2006 5:17:44 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Date: 12/19/2006 12:44:13 AM

Author: Garry
look for a stone medium to strong blue fluoro
I can see recommending a diamond with faint to medium blue fluorescence, but strong blue? Without seeing the stone? I''m a big fan of diamonds with medium blue fluorescence because I like the way they look in direct sunlight, but too often diamonds with strong blue fluorescence have a tendency to appear milky or oily when they get dirty - more so than diamonds with negligible, faint or medium blue fluorescence which tend not to display this effect which is more of an issue.

Fluorescence is a factor which may have practically no effect on a diamond, or which might improve the appearance or detract from the beauty of a diamond and it MUST be taken into account on a stone-by-stone basis and preferably by an experienced grader who has the experience and insight to determine whether the fluorescence in each particular diamond is having (1) no effect on the diamond; (2) a positive effect on the appearance of the diamond; or (3) a negative impact on the beauty of the diamond; and who will then decide whether to represent the diamond further based upon that observation. In my experience, faint to medium blue hardly ever has a negative impact on a diamond and is a pretty safe bet and it''s kind of pretty when viewed in direct sunlight and pretty cool when viewed in a dark room exposed to black light. Strong blue in a L-M-N ++ color diamond would be something to consider, but in an H, I don''t see a reason to go beyond medium blue if at all.

By the way, the reason Garry is suggesting that you consider a diamond with fluorescence is that it has the potential to increase the visual color grade of the diamond (not the actual color grade, but the visual perception of the color grade) to the high end of the scale for that grade... In other words, an H color diamond with a higher degree of fluorescence is more likely to face up on the high side of the range for H color, closer to G, than an H color diamond without fluorescence. Then again, finding a "high H" without fluorescence is essentially the same thing. "High H" / "Low H" / "Mid-range H" get stuck on this concept and you might find yourself bouncing off the padded walls of a sanitarium


With regards to the original subject at hand... Most people would be hard pressed to distinguish between a "G" and an "H" color diamond if the diamonds were comparably cut in terms of proportions and facet alignment, let''s say center range ideal cut... But with a little coaching and a few minutes to allow their eyes to relax, they would be able to distinguish a "G" to an "I" because the intensity of color / tonal value is more distinct and saturated in an "I" than it is in a "G" but keep in mind that at this point you would be comparing two unmounted diamonds side-by-side separated by a distance of like half an inch and you''d be looking at them from a distance of a foot or so looking down - the ability to accurately judge color from across the dinner table on a diamond which is mounted and a moving target would be much more of a challenge! Personally, I would focus on the actual proportions of the diamond way before color because a diamond fashioned to the right proportions will produce enough sparkle to offset the color and make it difficult to distinguish between a G-H-I from a top down perspective.

If you haven''t already done so, I would recommend stopping by a jewelry store that carries ideal cut diamonds and ask to compare a G-H-I color diamond of the same carat weight and the same precision of proportions side-by-side to determine whether it is easy or difficult for you to personally determine the degree of separation. If it is something that you can see easily, then select a color that is preferable to your personal preferences, but if it is a difference that you really can''t see, then select a diamond which performs well regardless of the paper grade of the color.
 

salmon

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Todd (Nice Ice)!!


Great and accurate response. I really appreciate the time you took to clarify the fluorescence issue. Many times people give advice to new comers without explaining the issue thorougly, I think sometimes people take for granted or underestimate the range of knowledge they possess, but regular joe consumers don''t have that breath or scope of knowlegede that experts possess.For example, I''m sure Gary realizes the possibility of strong blue floro producing a milky type of look when the stone is dirty, but not necessarily every consumer understands this. I understand this because I did my homework on this SITE and Good Old Gold . IT IS THE RESPOSNIBILITY OF THE CONSUMER TO EDUCATE HIS OR HERSELF. Pricescope shouldn''t be used as a crutch. In other words, you shouldn''t come here last minute with an image of an diamond and ask for an opinion of rather you should buy the diamond IMHO without doing a little of your own homework. Maybe you''ll take the advice of people and buy a diamond you didn''t or don''t like, simply because you blindly follow the advice of well meaning consumers or experts. This wouldn''t happen to a Pricescoper, because they have done their homework in most cases, but it could happen to a first timer who hears you should buy a diamond with strong blue flrorescence. I''m sure there are a lot of hoodwinkers out there who would love to sell some good old blue white diamonds that are milky looking to an unsuspecting customer, especially if YOU ASK FOR IT!! I always cringe when someone asks for last minute info on a diamond without seeing it first. A diamond can have a good idealscope images, good numbers, and still be a dud. The best advice I''ve heard on this board is; Call the diamond in and look at it for yourself and all pricescopers would agree. I actually don''t know the point of my post anu longer Ha!
Oh, I think I just wanted to thank Todd from nice ice for clarification on the fluorescence issue and encourage first timers to do as much research as they can own their own. PRICESCOPE IS A GREAT SITE. ARMED WITH the information you get from pricescope experts and prosumers, in addition to your own research makes you a formidable buyer in any diamond market (Mall, retailers, etc.) My two cents, although no one asked. This post isn''t meant to berate or judge anyone. I simply wanted to share my veiw on the importance of doing your own homework and encouraging others to do the same, particular if you haven''t seen a (your ) diamond in person or at minimal, had an independent appraiser look at it.
 

winternight

Brilliant_Rock
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Another issue might be whether or not there will be other stones in the setting or if she has other jewelry - e.g. a tennis bracelet. I''m not an expert but I wonder if an "I" stone would look more yellowish against "G/H" stones in a wedding band or bracelet.
 

Stone Hunter

Ideal_Rock
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You really need to decide that based on what YOU like. The RB that is well cut will hide more flaws and color than a well cut EC will. Just the nature of the cuts. Since you want a RB you''ll have to go look at a whole bunch of well cut RB stones to see what you like.

I was really really surprised when I looked at a well cut I cushion. It didn''t look yellow to me so I decided I''d go down to I. Because I don''t like yellow so that''s what I was trying to avoid. Now you might want icy white and not be able to go down to an I. My stone has Fluor. which I wanted for the coolness factor. The side effect is it made my stone look whiter than another stone GIA graded as an I. I looked at the loose stones 1/2 inch apart on a black background, and in sunlight. Now I''ll never look at them like that in "real life" but I picked the whiter stone. Of course nice ice pointed out that there are low-med-high of each color so that''s a factor too.

CAUTION: Most mall stores DO NOT have well cut stones. Do not let how they look in G-H-I make your decision for you. Look at GIA graded well cut stones.
 

belle

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Date: 12/19/2006 10:45:21 AM
Author: Stone Hunter
You really need to decide that based on what YOU like. The RB that is well cut will hide more flaws and color than a well cut EC will. Just the nature of the cuts. Since you want a RB you''ll have to go look at a whole bunch of well cut RB stones to see what you like.

I was really really surprised when I looked at a well cut I cushion. It didn''t look yellow to me so I decided I''d go down to I. Because I don''t like yellow so that''s what I was trying to avoid. Now you might want icy white and not be able to go down to an I. My stone has Fluor. which I wanted for the coolness factor. The side effect is it made my stone look whiter than another stone GIA graded as an I. I looked at the loose stones 1/2 inch apart on a black background, and in sunlight. Now I''ll never look at them like that in ''real life'' but I picked the whiter stone. Of course nice ice pointed out that there are low-med-high of each color so that''s a factor too.

CAUTION: Most mall stores DO NOT have well cut stones. Do not let how they look in G-H-I make your decision for you. Look at GIA graded well cut stones.
all good points stone hunter. cut has a huge impact on color. base your color choice on the quality of cut you will be getting.
 

wimpwgn

Rough_Rock
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46
Thanks everyone for his/her response.

I was considering getting a stone with med flour to compensate the lower grade color, but I have to find time to look at such stone in store first before I can decide.
 

wimpwgn

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 14, 2006
Messages
46
Moreover, what does everyone thing about the inclusions for this stone? Seems like there''s a quite a bit for an SI1.

http://www.whiteflash.com/pimg/certificates/ci_AGS-8051710.gif
 

belle

Super_Ideal_Rock
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more inclusions is not a bad thing and it definitely goes to show that you can't pick an eye clean diamond by the plot alone!

a bunch of small (very hard to see!) inclusions can be better than one or two big ones that make up the clarity grade.

here's the plot of my perfectly eye clean si1

psphotopic_20.jpg
 

wimpwgn

Rough_Rock
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Dec 14, 2006
Messages
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Date: 12/19/2006 12:29:10 PM
Author: belle
more inclusions is not a bad thing and it definitely goes to show that you can''t pick an eye clean diamond by the plot alone!


a bunch of small (very hard to see!) inclusions can be better than one or two big ones that make up the clarity grade.


here''s the plot of my perfectly eye clean si1
Thank you, belle. Do you think the long feather on the image I posted has any bad affects?
 

belle

Super_Ideal_Rock
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i couldn''t really see the image too well to tell exactly what the inclusions were but i will tell you that i have a feather as the clarity grader in my center stone (not the above plot) and i can''t see it at all. the good thing about a feather is, it''s white!
just ask if the stone is eyeclean. they will tell you exactly what you can expect to see.
 

Shay37

Ideal_Rock
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Mar 1, 2004
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3,343
Okay, two things. One, I love fluoro. It''s something I hunt for. It''s not for everyone. I have an I with MB. When Chris D. at Dave Atlas appraised it for me, he said that it was a very high I. It almost but not quite stretched to H. This backs up what Todd from Nice Ice said above. My stone is only a .76 for reference, so it will show less of its color (be less readily apparent to the naked eye) than the larger stone you are looking for.

Second, I have my I in a setting from WF. It''s their halo prong. The melee is ACA and I believe it''s either e-f or f-g in color. I simply cannot distinguish any color in my I next to either the melee or the platinum setting. HTH. That said, color is personal and subjective. Check out some ideal cut stones in person to see your personal threshold. Don''t be surprised if you can''t find one at a B&M with Fluoro. After that whole blue white fiasco in which the FTC intervened back many years ago, the fluoro. stones got a bad name in the market, so a lot of jewelers won''t carry them. We here at PS just don''t happen to let a lot of hype scare us.


shay
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Date: 12/19/2006 9:42:57 AM
Author: niceice

Date: 12/19/2006 5:17:44 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 12/19/2006 12:44:13 AM

Author: Garry
look for a stone medium to strong blue fluoro
I can see recommending a diamond with faint to medium blue fluorescence, but strong blue? Without seeing the stone?
How many oily cloudy storng and very strong stones do you see Todd?

And with a return period and the $$ saving - there is plenty of saving to cover an appraisres fee.

And vendors would be silly not to tell the truth as they will get the stone back anyway.
 

wimpwgn

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It''s great to see experts chime in on this topic. I feel I am much more comfortable with fluorescence in diamonds. Thank you all very much for your opinions.

Many of you mentioned that stones with fluor will look whiter from top, how about from side? For a 1.1-1.35 carat stone with medium fluor mounted on a regular 4 or 6 prong setting, will an average Joe able to detect the blue from any angle?
 

diamondseeker2006

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You aren''t going to detect it unless you have a black light around! I''ve had a F with MB for years and have never seen the flourescence.
 

Rhino

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Interesting thread. I would never buy a strong blue sight unseen personally so I sympathize with Todd''s advice escpecially when you''re talking the kind of bucks it costs for a diamond and shipping etc. One other point to consider which I''ve seen impact stones with weaker fluoroscence than "very strong" is the issue of graining. Although not common, if you take a stone with fluorescence and couple that with graining issues that can impact the appearance of the diamond similar to those oily/milky appearances of some of the "very strongs".

Peace,
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I love fluorescence in diamonds, med, strong, v-strong yum!
I will gladly take the price break and run :}
I get what to me is a better stone and save some money too... win win.
But if I saw a stone with none and everything else was what I wanted id snag it too.
Its a minor issue that wont even be noticeable in most lighting.

Its easy to sort out the few bad ones... use a trusted vendor who actually looks at the stones. Its as simple as that :}
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Date: 12/19/2006 8:55:24 PM
Author: Rhino
Interesting thread. I would never buy a strong blue sight unseen personally so I sympathize with Todd''s advice escpecially when you''re talking the kind of bucks it costs for a diamond and shipping etc. One other point to consider which I''ve seen impact stones with weaker fluoroscence than ''very strong'' is the issue of graining. Although not common, if you take a stone with fluorescence and couple that with graining issues that can impact the appearance of the diamond similar to those oily/milky appearances of some of the ''very strongs''.

Peace,
True - and I have said it before - Strong and V Strong coupled with graining is very (or at least more) likely to lead to cloudiness and a loss of fire and brilliance.

But these are not common every day stones - althogh they are around and they stay around as the tradies who "see" them reject them and the price just keeps going south.

Any half witted diamantaire worth his/her salt wpould sell them for what they are - just as they would tell you that 6mm 1ct is a bluff stone at a bargain price.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
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In the GIA study the trade experts could only identiify ''oilyness'' in the table down position - and then only about half of them said they saw it - and most of the time they got it wrong except when the diamond desk light was very close to the diamond. In daylight (which has more UV light) they thought strong fluoro stones were MORE transperent (less oily).

Fluoro is B*****t and you educated consumers should make hay while the sun shines

Quote from http://www.gia.edu/pdfs/W97_fluoresce.pdf

For the experienced observers, we found that, in
general, the strength of fluorescence had no widely
perceptible effect on the color appearance of diamonds
viewed table-down (as is typical in laboratory
and trade grading). In the table-up position (as is
commonly encountered in jewelry), diamonds
described as strongly or very strongly fluorescent
were, on average, reported as having a better color
appearance than less fluorescent stones. In this
study, blue fluorescence was found to have even
less effect on transparency. These observations confirm
GIA GTL’s experience grading millions of diamonds
over the decades.
 

zhuzhu

Ideal_Rock
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2,503
Garry I agree with you. I recently got a strong blue fluro pendent (thread is on rocktalky somewhere) and as the pictures will show, from almost all dirction the pendant shows cool "neon effect" of blue glow and fire. This characteristic completely masks the SI3 nature of the diamond. Please take a look and take a guss of its cut grade!

Having strong fluro on "intellegently included diamonds" is almost like a perfect foundation meant to cover up the worst break-out (for the lack of better comparative theme :))
 

niceice

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Date: 12/19/2006 5:34:07 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Date: 12/19/2006 9:42:57 AM

Author: niceice

Date: 12/19/2006 5:17:44 AM

Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 12/19/2006 12:44:13 AM

Author: Garry

look for a stone medium to strong blue fluoro
I can see recommending a diamond with faint to medium blue fluorescence, but strong blue? Without seeing the stone?
How many oily cloudy storng and very strong stones do you see Todd?

And with a return period and the $$ saving - there is plenty of saving to cover an appraisres fee.

And vendors would be silly not to tell the truth as they will get the stone back anyway.
LOL! So this is going to be good for a chuckle, but the best example of a diamond with strong blue fluorescence which looks cloudy is the 2.25 carat, I, SI-2 that I have on my hand... It''s not a diamond that I would pick for myself, but it is an heirloom given to me by somebody that meant a lot to me so I continue to wear it! I actually use it when explaining the effects of fluorescence to clients in the store.

My late wife Robin was a big fan of fluorescent diamonds and wore a D color / strong blue and had to clean it every day to keep it from looking oily - but she loved to play with it under the grading lights and the lavender blue hue that it picked up in direct sunlight, so cleaning the diamond every day was a small price for her to pay for her amusement and it''s not like we don''t have the equipment to make the job easy. Fluorescence and degrees of fluorescence is truly a matter of personal preference and people who are willing to consider it should take the time to look at several diamonds, both fluorescent and non-fluorescent before making the decision to buy either. My primary objection to the comment "look for a diamond with strong blue fluorescence" is that it lacked explanation and might be misleading to somebody who popped onto PS for quick advice on the fly and who might not have conducted additional research.

I hope that I haven''t offended you Garry by challenging your statement, I most likely should have phrased my concern in the form of questions which would have been more educational to the people reading this forum but as a dealer I guess I automatically jumped straight into answer mode before asking these questions of Garry which would have made this thread far more educational:

What are the benefits of buying a diamond with strong blue fluorescence?

Is there potential for negative impact upon the visual performance of a diamond with strong blue fluorescence? Can fluorescence have a negative impact upon the way a diamond looks?

How does strong blue fluorescence affect the marketability of a diamond? How does it impact the ability for the consumer to trade-up later?

Since you mention that the savings derived from buying a diamond with strong blue fluorescence would more than cover the cost of having the diamond evaluated by an appraiser, I assume that there is a discount for diamonds with strong blue fluorescence... If strong blue fluorescence has such a positive impact upon the color of a diamond, why is there a discount for it? This is of course assuming that there is a discount for it (I''m playing devil''s advocate here - I KNOW that there is a discount for it).

I saw a lab report for an "L" color diamond and the fluorescence was stated as Medium Yellow. What effect would this have upon the diamond? The price seemed really, really good!
 
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