Is imitation the sincerest form of flattery?

[Aoife]

It seems to me that we're really talking about two distinct scenarios here. One is the situation that Pandora and LD referenced, which is when someone designs a setting herself, posts it, and it is replicated in every detail, and the copy posted with or without attribution. The second scenario is when a PS'er uses a vendor to either design or adapt a previously made setting, and then someone else on PS sees it and has the same thing made. In the first case, if it was an original design, the design is clearly the PS'ers intellectual property, and at best copying it in every detail is rude. The second case is a little fuzzier: who owns the design, the vendor or the owner of the original piece? When is it okay to copy, and when not?

ETA: And for the second scenario I'm using "own" in a moral or ethical sense rather than in a legal sense.

 

[jstarfireb]

I have absolutely no problem with someone copying one of my pieces right down to the exact details. If someone sees a piece I have and it would make them happy to have the same one, then why the heck not?

 

[TristanC]

It would be difficult to authoritatively claim a ring design as your own unless it was really truly distinct and created from scratch.

I have no problems if people copied something more generic (there are perhaps 10-100 lurkers for each poster) without saying so, except that if it was a very personal design from scratch - I would rather not share it so this isn't an issue.

I have more issues with people copying a distinct design, such as a signature ring (MC2's flora design for example) without at least saying that they did a copy ring.

My personal preference would be to engage someone who does such outstanding work, that a copy would be a pale imitation. Victor Canera's work speaks to me in such a way - if someone wanted to do a replication of his work, he would have to be a dang fine craftsman in his own right to pull off such artistry, in which case, he would probably have added some of his own elements to it.

Still, I even see major jewelry chains taking 'inspiration' from Tiffany and Harry Winston signature pieces so... almost like a moot point. There is a fine line between compromising your vision just to be unique, and accepting that if it is gorgeous people will copy it.

But I DID refuse to let my Interior Designer photograph my home or bring future customers over to view their work.

They offered a magazine spread, and i told them that I didn't want it either. 90% of the design was mine not theirs, and all the lights/switches/furniture/accent items were sourced by me. I didn't even say where I bought most of my things from (around 1/3 was internationally shipped in). I bought interior design magazines for 1 year just to avoid popular trends.

I can't imagine having to put up with idiotic neighbours who copied whatever I bought. But I guess a house is more personal than a ring in the sense that it takes more elements to copy a design.

 

[FrekeChild]

If anyone gets bored, here is some interesting reading pertaining to this subject:

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/imitation.103965/

 

[faegrace]

Thanks for the link, Freke!

It's piques my curiosity that everyone refers primarily to ring design without much mention of posting a particular gem and having someone head straight to the same lapidary to cut another out of the same rough, the same cut, etc. In any case, be it the world of CS, culinary arts, or interior design, there is something about doing all the "leg-work" and having someone else waltz in and get immediate gratification with a copy or even an "upgrade"(or a twin to your vehicle!) that is at least vaguely disturbing.

 

[T L]

There comes a point when imitation becomes scarey!

You think?

 

[faegrace]

Ugh, TL, I just ate! Warn a girl, would you?!?

 

[kenny]

I don't care if anyone copies jewelry I have.
It's not like I wrote music or painted a painting that someone is passing off as their own.
Even if I designed a distinctive ring I'd love it if others copied it.

I also think it's fine that others feel differently.
There is no single right way to be that applies to everyone.

 

[cokitty]

I dont know, I have yet to see anything of PS that I have not seen elsewhere. I know many people feel a certain rush as they find these forums of discovering things that they feel are new and different. But there is very little left in the world that is truly original, if you think something on here was the first, that probably means you just have not been looking long enough.

That said, what is wrong with something being similar or to my mind a sort cut and paste of other projects? What we see and get out of pieces is very personal.

 

[Pandora II]

I do know of a incident where someone posted a photo of a piece of very unique antique jewellery. Someone then took photos of the piece to a jeweller who happened to know the original owner.

The jeweller discussed the fact that someone had asked for a copy of the piece with the original owner (a customer of theirs), told them that there would be significant changes made so that it would not appear as a copy of her piece. Said jeweller then offered to clean the piece and spent a VERY long time doing so.

A few weeks later the original owner saw the new version and other than centre-stone size it was an identical copy. The jeweller apologised to her and even offered compensation which makes me feel that they knew they had been wrong to do what they did especially considering that they had discussed the situation in advance and promised that there would be enough changes that the two pieces would look entirely different in terms of elements.

Had the jeweller not known the original owner and had just produced a piece as per the new client's instructions then I would have just thought he was a bit naughty to produce an exact copy as this is a dangerous road to go down if you don't want to get sued for breach of copyright when you inadvertently copy a piece from a major jewellery house.


A friend of mine wanted an e-ring for his girlfriend. She had always liked my ring so he asked for something the same as mine. What I did was to put together a tsavorite, melee diamonds and a split-shank setting... in the form of an oval stone, a halo and a plain setting with a split-shank. Mine was the inspiration but she has her own ring - and the now husband admitted that while he was initially worried because it wasn't the same as mine it actually looked better on her hand.

Part of me did feel slightly possessive about my tsavorite - mainly because while they are popular on PS, 99.9% of people in the UK have no idea what they are and so I had something unusual. But that was just being silly...

 

[bright ice]

Thanks for the link, Freke!

It's piques my curiosity that everyone refers primarily to ring design without much mention of posting a particular gem and having someone head straight to the same lapidary to cut another out of the same rough, the same cut, etc. In any case, be it the world of CS, culinary arts, or interior design, there is something about doing all the "leg-work" and having someone else waltz in and get immediate gratification with a copy or even an "upgrade"(or a twin to your vehicle!) that is at least vaguely disturbing.

Faegrace

I feel that you are speaking directly to me as this whole discussion began after I commented that I would be getting an Aqua and that it would be like yours, although a bit larger.

I hate that you feel I am steeling your design.

I have been working with JW for quite some time. I have been searching for an aqua for a while and after seeing his cutting once I got my spinel, I was sold. He had told me of the aqua rough that he had coming which is not the EXACT parcel that yours was cut from. I had seriously thought about an asscher cut but just could not completely sell myself on one. The cushion cut I believe is JW's design if I am not mistaken.

The size of the stone was totally dictated by the rough which as you know JW sets a price for the piece of rough and whatever it cuts out depending on the shape is the end tcw.

If it offends you, I will not post my stone once it is complete in honor of your personal triumphant victory.

 

[chrono]

Not written with anybody in mind but I would like to bring up an old story of sorts. There is nothing truly proprietary about having an asscher cut coloured gemstone. In fact, there's been an amusing old post or two about the descendent of the original asscher designer write a nasty note to lapidaries asking them not to use the term "asscher" on their websites. I recall first seeing asscher cut coloured gemstones on PS years ago. It's not anything new. In fact, I was inspired by a pair of asscher cut pink spinels in the AGTA cutting contest years ago and contacted Jeff White to cut a similar stone nearly 5 years ago. There's a thread on this somewhere here as well.

 

[Aoife]

Thanks for the link, Freke!

It's piques my curiosity that everyone refers primarily to ring design without much mention of posting a particular gem and having someone head straight to the same lapidary to cut another out of the same rough, the same cut, etc. In any case, be it the world of CS, culinary arts, or interior design, there is something about doing all the "leg-work" and having someone else waltz in and get immediate gratification with a copy or even an "upgrade"(or a twin to your vehicle!) that is at least vaguely disturbing.

You're right, I did get sidetracked onto the ring design issue, even though your original post mentioned the gemstone issue. Hmmm. I see what you are saying, but in my experience no two gemstones are the same, even if they are cut in the same design, from the same rough, by the same lapidary. Add to that the alchemy that takes place between the stone and the design when you set the stone, and then add to that the further magic that happens once the finished ring is on the owners hand--differences in the shape and size of the hand, color of the skin, etc.--and you've got a lot of very significant differences. Right now I'm thinking of Barry Bridgestock's peachy-pink tourmalines. He's cut a gazillion of those, and PS'ers own a lot of them, but each one is individually gorgeous and I never tire of looking at them. Each one of them is meaningful and beautiful to the individual owners, and nothing can spoil that.

Just as a general comment, if I am working on a very special or meaningful project, I tend to only post here once the project is finished. ETA: If I post at all

 

[ZestfullyBling]

Thanks for the link, Freke!
but in my experience no two gemstones are the same, even if they are cut in the same design, from the same rough, by the same lapidary. Add to that the alchemy that takes place between the stone and the design when you set the stone, and then add to that the further magic that happens once the finished ring is on the owners hand--differences in the shape and size of the hand, color of the skin, etc.--and you've got a lot of very significant differences. Right now I'm thinking of Barry Bridgestock's peachy-pink tourmalines. He's cut a gazillion of those, and PS'ers own a lot of them, but each one is individually gorgeous and I never tire of looking at them. Each one of them is meaningful and beautiful to the individual owners, and nothing can spoil that.

"I like this comment" (facebook reference)

Isn't PS CS about education and recommendations on where to chose quality and precision cut gemstones, what to look for? We have the "Vendor photo and IRL photo" forum, we have a 'vendor list' informative forum, we have testimonials of our own pieces. All of this information is shared, because it is posted here. It enpowers us as consumers and allows for quality gem purchases. If a particular gemstone is too personal, sentimental, and has important signaficance to you, and you'd be offended if a fellow PSer would want a gem like it, I personally wouldn't post it.

 

[SB621]

hmmm...I thought I posted on this topic yesterday...I hope it wasn't deleted or taken the wrong way by someone.

I will just restate that I do think it is a form of flattery however, if someone does use your jewelry or gemstone I do appreciate it when they at least aknowledge that it was yours as inspiration. I just feel that is the correct thing to do.

 

[Pandora II]

I wonder how much depends on the specific piece?

I quite often design jewellery for friends and I'm much more careful to make an e-ring as unique as possible, where as a pendant or a RHR will tend to be more generic - unless the person has very strong ideas about what they want.

I'm currently working on a pendant setting for my parent's ruby wedding. It will have a 0.38ct unheated ruby and a 3ct crystal clear moonstone teardrop with very strong blue adularescence (it's often termed as adularia moonstone and is breathtaking to look at) that I brought back from Sri Lanka.

If someone borrowed the eventual design I wouldn't be that bothered except by the breach of copyright. If they copied my e-ring (which I also designed from scratch and has things like the melee graduated in size in the channels from small to large and then back to small again which I haven't seen on other split-shanks) then I would be very annoyed - both because it has huge sentimental value to me and my husband and I designed it together, and because I am protective of my copyright.

What I find very odd is that people would even want an exact copy of what someone else has - bit like when Catherine Middleton wore that blue dress for the engagement announcement... it sold out within hours. Personally I wouldn't want something that everyone would say 'Oh that's the Kate engagement dress' but obviously lots of people do. I have a fairly similar figure to hers and so if I see things that I like on her then I will sometimes look for something similar for myself - perhaps the shape of a dress or the length of a jacket - but I'd never want to buy the exact same piece.

Regarding cuts of gemstones... unless someone has the ability and software to actually design a new cut themselves then the design belongs to the cutter or whoever they bought it from if it's not their own. As such they can produce as many of that cut as they feel like and people need to decide whether they want to buy it or not knowing that it's not unique. Exactly like buying a setting from the Stuller catalogue.

I probably wouldn't want to have the same piece of rough cut into the same shape as someone else but if I have a certain project in mind and the colour of the rough fitted the bill (and we all know how hard it is to find THE colour) then I might well depending on how sentimental a project it was.

 

[faegrace]

Pandora ~

Now that is just a nightmare! It certainly makes one consider the lines between reproducing a piece viewable en masse (sans copyright) as opposed to a much more private piece of jewelry. Your comment about tsavorites reminds me of an earlier post regarding CS trends; there are even microtrends here on PS. Gemstone flavor of the month, if you will.



BrightIce ~

I know you have been on the hunt for a handful of specific gemstones for a while, and certainly seeing that you would have a sister stone to my JW aqua prompted my post. However, I began considering the issue itself several months ago when I received an e-mail from JKT regarding copyright to her designs in-process.., then working with Michael E. on my first custom ring also brought up inspiration vs replication (definitely "inspired," as Michael is an artist), and finally recent awareness of PS activity where I noticed people getting the same gems cut in the same way and sometimes from the same rough, posting pics of finished pieces within days of each other. It struck me differently than say the spessartite microtrend that was happening when I joined PS. I wanted to explore viewpoints to hear what others had to say and also to understand my own feelings surrounding the issues.


Aoife ~

Logically, I know that the thing itself has no meaning; it is only what the beholder(s) ascribe to it.



ZB ~

You're right of course, but it has to occur to someone first, that it would bother them. Sometimes you don't know what will or won't bother you ahead of time. Life's lessons, experience is what you get when you don't get what you want, and all that.... For me, it's important to evaluate why I feel or think a particular way. I don't want to miss asking the questions that could facilitate a paradigm shift.




~ faegrace

 

[Aoife]

Aoife ~

Logically, I know that the thing itself has no meaning; it is only what the beholder(s) ascribe to it.


~ faegrace

Believe me, I really "get" the difference between knowing something logically, and how upsetting/devastating/infuriating something can be from an emotional level. That was why I posted the recipe story, because logically I knew I shouldn't have been as enraged as I was. But I was furious and hurt. On a forum like PS there is a surface (because most of us don't know each other IRL) veneer of intimacy that makes someone imitating, copying, me-too'ing a stone, cut, design (especially if that person's post gets a lot of attention) seem a lot more personal than it really is intended to be. It feels personal, even if it isn't, really.

And there's really nothing at all that can make your aqua anything less than superb.

 

[PrecisionGem]

My wife watches some show on E channel with Joan Rivers about what the stars are wearing, and Joan rips the outfits apart. Anyways, there is some segment on the shown called "Bitch stole my outfit" or something like that. This thread made me think of that.

 

[faegrace]

Gene!

And let's not forget: NEVER sing the praises of your love too loudly, lest a friend or neighbor borrow a whole lot more than a cup of sugar....

 

[Laila619]

My wife watches some show on E channel with Joan Rivers about what the stars are wearing, and Joan rips the outfits apart. Anyways, there is some segment on the shown called "Bitch stole my outfit" or something like that. This thread made me think of that.

 

[ZestfullyBling]

My wife watches some show on E channel with Joan Rivers about what the stars are wearing, and Joan rips the outfits apart. Anyways, there is some segment on the shown called "Bitch stole my outfit" or something like that. This thread made me think of that.

This comment made me burst into laughter!!! So funny!!!l

 

[stargurl78]

at Gene!

If it were me, I'd be flattered. However, I can also understand how it might make someone upset, especially if it were a close friend or family member copying your stone or design.

In terms of PS, if you don't want someone to copy a gemstone or a design of yours, I wouldn't post it on here. Many people visit this site on a daily basis and at least one person is bound to like what you have and want the same thing.

 

[kenny]

She cracks me up!

She says stuff even Kenny would never say.

 

[deorwine]

Thanks for the link, Freke!

It's piques my curiosity that everyone refers primarily to ring design without much mention of posting a particular gem and having someone head straight to the same lapidary to cut another out of the same rough, the same cut, etc. In any case, be it the world of CS, culinary arts, or interior design, there is something about doing all the "leg-work" and having someone else waltz in and get immediate gratification with a copy or even an "upgrade"(or a twin to your vehicle!) that is at least vaguely disturbing.

I guess that seems different to me, because it's not like I (the consumer) designed the cut. Had I designed the cut myself I could see maybe feeling a little piqued, the same way some have said they might feel a little protective of a piece of jewelry that they did a lot of the design work for. But I dunno... if I ask Barry to cut me a round brilliant cut tourmaline, and then someone else does, I'm supposed to feel like they've ripped off my idea?

 

[faegrace]

deorwine ~

I don't think anyone is "supposed" to feel any particular way. As the responses to this thread demonstrate, each of us has different thoughts, beliefs, and subsequent feelings. I am certainly not in the market of trying to convince anyone my POV is anything other than that: my perspective. So, again, I posted in the interest of reading what others have to say, and I would hope that doesn't exempt me from sharing as well.

~ faegrace

 

[LD]

It's interesting but when I wrote my earlier reply I was thinking about ring/pendant designs NOT just a gemstone.

As far as I'm concerned if I've got a certain gemstone in a certain cut I wouldn't give two hoots if somebody else got the same stone/cut/size. Every gemstone is unique (more or less). My issue comes with that stone then being put in exactly the same setting and being replicated and then posted as one's own - rather than acknowledging it was a replica or inspiration drawn from another poster's jewellery. I know this can happen by accident but it's when it doesn't that I have an issue with it.

 

[bright ice]

Faegrace, I have to ask if JW specifically designed the cut referenced at your request? How would the lapidaries feel if they could only cut one of each design or gem type? How could they stay in business? I think PS members keep them quite busy and I would assume they appreciate us sharing.

 

[T L]

If you really want a unique piece, then I think a hidden inscription is a lovely thought.

BTW, I have loved MariedTiger's mother's ring forever, and that is one of the most unique pieces I've seen on this board. I would love to copy it one day, but it's so very unique, I don't think I could ever get an "exact" copy of it, but I love to draw inspiration from it.

I also love LD's multi-diamond brooch, but I don't wear brooches, so she doesn't have to worry.

Okay, I better stop while I'm ahead, but I just draw so much inspiration and the love of sharing on this board, that I didn't realize it upset as many people as it does to have a copy made. This is an eye opener for me.

 

[faegrace]

BrightIce ~

Again, I am not asking anyone to agree with my feelings. Sharing my thoughts and feelings is much like sharing anything else on a public forum: it seems to invite debate and attempts to convince people of a "right" or "correct" perspective.

You know, at this point I'm sorry I even pursued the opportunity to discuss what seasoned, as well as new PSers, think about gem and jewelry imitation, inspiration, etc. Moreover, I regret posting my own perspective, for thinking it was a safe place to do so. Stupidly, I thought that it could be an exploration and learning experience. Okay, maybe not so stupid as I learned a lot but sadly not about the original subject matter.



~ faegrace