Interracial relationships?

[roxy7]

According to Jewish law, someone is considered to be a Jew if he or she was born of a Jewish mother or converted in accord with Jewish Law. (Recently, the American Reform and Reconstructionist movements have included those born of Jewish fathers and gentile mothers, if the children are raised practicing Judaism only.) All mainstream forms of Judaism today are open to sincere converts.

Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism#What_makes_a_person_Jewish.3F


I was born from a Jewish father and a mother who converted. But some non-jewish people who I have met in my life have tried to tell me that I am not a "real'' jew because my mother was not born jewish. I really don''t like it when non-jewish people try to tell me about my judaism.

One person who sticks out in my mind was a Bulgarian girl who I met in Europe who had probably met very few Jewish people in her life. She said that if my mother wasn''t born Jewish, I wasn''t Jewish. I can''t tell you how angry and annoyed I was that someone who knows very little about my religion (me, a person who studied Torah, was Bat Mitzvahed and confirmed) about my religion.

Judaism is not a recessive geneic trait. The roots of that Jewish law come from a time when the mother was the one who ran the household and monitored her children''s religious upbringing. If the mother did not run a Jewish household, the children were not considered Jewish. This is not so today. Without going through an actual conversion ceremony, a mother can still raise her child in a Jewish household, take them to Sunday school and to be Bar/Bat Mitzvahed. Who is someone to tell that child, to whom Judaism is the only religion they have ever known, that they are not Jewish??

Obviously, many Orthodox sects still see this as a Jewish law. But considering that the vast majority of American Jews are not Orthodox, I think it is not wise for people (especially non-Jews) to spout out who is and who is not Jewish by asking them about their bloodlines. That is an ancient Jewish law. It''s like saying, "All Jews keep kosher, and if you eat dairy with meat, then you are not a Jew."

I am sorry if I hurt anyone''s feelings with this topic. I just thought that you might want to know that what you are saying can be thought of as insensitive and even offensive to certain people.

 

[lmurden]

Date: 1/20/2006 1:16:36 PM
Author: roxy7
According to Jewish law, someone is considered to be a Jew if he or she was born of a Jewish mother or converted in accord with Jewish Law. (Recently, the American Reform and Reconstructionist movements have included those born of Jewish fathers and gentile mothers, if the children are raised practicing Judaism only.) All mainstream forms of Judaism today are open to sincere converts.

Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism#What_makes_a_person_Jewish.3F


I was born from a Jewish father and a mother who converted. But some non-jewish people who I have met in my life have tried to tell me that I am not a 'real' jew because my mother was not born jewish. I really don't like it when non-jewish people try to tell me about my judaism.

One person who sticks out in my mind was a Bulgarian girl who I met in Europe who had probably met very few Jewish people in her life. She said that if my mother wasn't born Jewish, I wasn't Jewish. I can't tell you how angry and annoyed I was that someone who knows very little about my religion (me, a person who studied Torah, was Bat Mitzvahed and confirmed) about my religion.

Judaism is not a recessive geneic trait. The roots of that Jewish law come from a time when the mother was the one who ran the household and monitored her children's religious upbringing. If the mother did not run a Jewish household, the children were not considered Jewish. This is not so today. Without going through an actual conversion ceremony, a mother can still raise her child in a Jewish household, take them to Sunday school and to be Bar/Bat Mitzvahed. Who is someone to tell that child, to whom Judaism is the only religion they have ever known, that they are not Jewish??

Obviously, many Orthodox sects still see this as a Jewish law. But considering that the vast majority of American Jews are not Orthodox, I think it is not wise for people (especially non-Jews) to spout out who is and who is not Jewish by asking them about their bloodlines. That is an ancient Jewish law. It's like saying, 'All Jews keep kosher, and if you eat dairy with meat, then you are not a Jew.'

I am sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings with this topic. I just thought that you might want to know that what you are saying can be thought of as insensitive and even offensive to certain people.

Who's Jewish is an ongoing debate by Jewish people and non-Jewish people. On the flip side my friend converted to Judaism was told over and over by many ethnic Jewish people that she wasn't Jewish! So what do you say to that? Also, I don't care who is a Jewish or not but like I said how dare someone to ask, demand, or secretly want someone to covert to anything!

 

[roxy7]

Ouch, lmurden, that hurts. Funnily enough, I don't think anyone should be told to convert to anything. My post had nothing in it that talked about making anyone convert to anything -- the whole point of it was that I think a woman who marries a jew and raises her kids as jews should NOT have to convert, and her kids still be considered jews if raised that way.

I was responding to what AGBF wrote, not anything you wrote. That post was not directed at you in any way.

you are certainly right that the debate belongs both to jews and non-jews. I am upset by your reply because I don't understand how I could have offended you.

 

[lmurden]

Date: 1/20/2006 1:45:28 PM
Author: roxy7
Ouch, lmurden, that hurts. Funnily enough, I don''t think anyone should be told to convert to anything. My post had nothing in it that talked about making anyone convert to anything -- the whole point of it was that I think a woman who marries a jew and raises her kids as jews should NOT have to convert, and her kids still be considered jews if raised that way.

I was responding to what AGBF wrote, not anything you wrote. That post was not directed at you in any way.

you are certainly right that the debate belongs both to jews and non-jews.

Sorry

 

[roxy7]

I am sorry too. I am preemptively sorry to AGBF.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 1/20/2006 1:16:36 PM
Author: roxy7
According to Jewish law, someone is considered to be a Jew if he or she was born of a Jewish mother or converted in accord with Jewish Law. (Recently, the American Reform and Reconstructionist movements have included those born of Jewish fathers and gentile mothers, if the children are raised practicing Judaism only.) All mainstream forms of Judaism today are open to sincere converts.

Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism#What_makes_a_person_Jewish.3F


I was born from a Jewish father and a mother who converted. But some non-jewish people who I have met in my life have tried to tell me that I am not a ''real'' jew because my mother was not born jewish. I really don''t like it when non-jewish people try to tell me about my judaism.

One person who sticks out in my mind was a Bulgarian girl who I met in Europe who had probably met very few Jewish people in her life. She said that if my mother wasn''t born Jewish, I wasn''t Jewish. I can''t tell you how angry and annoyed I was that someone who knows very little about my religion (me, a person who studied Torah, was Bat Mitzvahed and confirmed) about my religion.

Judaism is not a recessive geneic trait. The roots of that Jewish law come from a time when the mother was the one who ran the household and monitored her children''s religious upbringing. If the mother did not run a Jewish household, the children were not considered Jewish. This is not so today. Without going through an actual conversion ceremony, a mother can still raise her child in a Jewish household, take them to Sunday school and to be Bar/Bat Mitzvahed. Who is someone to tell that child, to whom Judaism is the only religion they have ever known, that they are not Jewish??

Obviously, many Orthodox sects still see this as a Jewish law. But considering that the vast majority of American Jews are not Orthodox, I think it is not wise for people (especially non-Jews) to spout out who is and who is not Jewish by asking them about their bloodlines. That is an ancient Jewish law. It''s like saying, ''All Jews keep kosher, and if you eat dairy with meat, then you are not a Jew.''

I am sorry if I hurt anyone''s feelings with this topic. I just thought that you might want to know that what you are saying can be thought of as insensitive and even offensive to certain people.

You are venting to the wrong people. It''s still quite a mainstream thought amoungst Jews. In my case, it has always been an inclusive gesture and not an exclusive one. And, in all cases none were Orthodox. My point is that if someone believes this to be part of their faith then it should be discussed as an issue. I would have no problem addressing the other person''s concerns. I don''t think anybody said that your not a Jew if you weren''t born to a Jewish mother. Just discussing why someone would want someone to convert, if that is what they believe. And, coming from this non-jew, I was confronted with the whole thing years ago in a relationship.

To me, it''s the same argument that if MIL goes and has a baby baptized w/o the parents consent or knowledge is by right Christian of some denomination. Makes no sense to me - but many believe it to be true.

Lmurden - I do think that it can be appropriate for someone to ask someone to convert. And, that person has every right to refuse. Faith can be a pretty powerful thing. For me, it is not. But, I have witnessed this as a non-start for some marriages. It''s only crazy in the eyes of the non beholder. Heck, some people could demand that they pay off all debts before marriage. Is that unreasonable? In the end, it''s all about compromise.

And, I''m not going to apologize to anyone.

I think these are valid issues when two people mesh their cultures. I kid you not - some people refered to our marriage as "mixed" - me being a Northerner & him being a Southerner. Believe it or not - this one goes on the crazy list - his family warmed up to me more when they found out that my Mother lived in Arlington,VA. for a bit

Again, I thought this thread to be interesting because many have focused on their similarities rather than their differences.

 

[lmurden]

Date: 1/20/2006 1:58:20 PM
Author: fire&ice

Date: 1/20/2006 1:16:36 PM
Author: roxy7
According to Jewish law, someone is considered to be a Jew if he or she was born of a Jewish mother or converted in accord with Jewish Law. (Recently, the American Reform and Reconstructionist movements have included those born of Jewish fathers and gentile mothers, if the children are raised practicing Judaism only.) All mainstream forms of Judaism today are open to sincere converts.

Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism#What_makes_a_person_Jewish.3F


I was born from a Jewish father and a mother who converted. But some non-jewish people who I have met in my life have tried to tell me that I am not a ''real'' jew because my mother was not born jewish. I really don''t like it when non-jewish people try to tell me about my judaism.

One person who sticks out in my mind was a Bulgarian girl who I met in Europe who had probably met very few Jewish people in her life. She said that if my mother wasn''t born Jewish, I wasn''t Jewish. I can''t tell you how angry and annoyed I was that someone who knows very little about my religion (me, a person who studied Torah, was Bat Mitzvahed and confirmed) about my religion.

Judaism is not a recessive geneic trait. The roots of that Jewish law come from a time when the mother was the one who ran the household and monitored her children''s religious upbringing. If the mother did not run a Jewish household, the children were not considered Jewish. This is not so today. Without going through an actual conversion ceremony, a mother can still raise her child in a Jewish household, take them to Sunday school and to be Bar/Bat Mitzvahed. Who is someone to tell that child, to whom Judaism is the only religion they have ever known, that they are not Jewish??

Obviously, many Orthodox sects still see this as a Jewish law. But considering that the vast majority of American Jews are not Orthodox, I think it is not wise for people (especially non-Jews) to spout out who is and who is not Jewish by asking them about their bloodlines. That is an ancient Jewish law. It''s like saying, ''All Jews keep kosher, and if you eat dairy with meat, then you are not a Jew.''

I am sorry if I hurt anyone''s feelings with this topic. I just thought that you might want to know that what you are saying can be thought of as insensitive and even offensive to certain people.

You are venting to the wrong people. It''s still quite a mainstream thought amoungst Jews. In my case, it has always been an inclusive gesture and not an exclusive one. And, in all cases none were Orthodox. My point is that if someone believes this to be part of their faith then it should be discussed as an issue. I would have no problem addressing the other person''s concerns. I don''t think anybody said that your not a Jew if you weren''t born to a Jewish mother. Just discussing why someone would want someone to convert, if that is what they believe. And, coming from this non-jew, I was confronted with the whole thing years ago in a relationship.

To me, it''s the same argument that if MIL goes and has a baby baptized w/o the parents consent or knowledge is by right Christian of some denomination. Makes no sense to me - but many believe it to be true.

Lmurden - I do think that it can be appropriate for someone to ask someone to convert. And, that person has every right to refuse. Faith can be a pretty powerful thing. For me, it is not. But, I have witnessed this as a non-start for some marriages. It''s only crazy in the eyes of the non beholder. Heck, some people could demand that they pay off all debts before marriage. Is that unreasonable? In the end, it''s all about compromise.

And, I''m not going to apologize to anyone.

I think these are valid issues when two people mesh their cultures. I kid you not - some people refered to our marriage as ''mixed'' - me being a Northerner & him being a Southerner. Believe it or not - this one goes on the crazy list - his family warmed up to me more when they found out that my Mother lived in Arlington,VA. for a bit

Again, I thought this thread to be interesting because many have focused on their similarities rather than their differences.

Danm it, I do want my debt to be paid off before marriage!!!

 

[roxy7]

Date: 1/20/2006 9:57:51 AM
Author: AGBF

Date: 1/20/2006 9:43:36 AM
Author: Logan Sapphire
What happens when the mother is not Jewish and doesn't convert? Are the kids considered the religion of the mother then?

In Judaism, the children are the religion of their mother. If she was not born a Jew and has not converted to Judaism, they are not Jewish. They may, of course, convert to Judaism themselves at some point. Do not ask me when. I am afraid I am not a Talmudic scholar! (But I would guess at age 13, when they are adults according to Jewish tradition.)

Deborah

Fire & Ice,

The comment quoted above is the comment I was responding to. I viewed it as a very matter of fact statement -- "if she was not born a jew and has not converted to judaism, they are not jewish." To me, this is saying you are not a jew unless (a) you were born to a jewish mother, or (b) you convert.

I had a problem with that statement, not with anything you said. I don't have a problem with anyone here, and I did not even try to touch the issue of when/if a person should convert.

My only beef was that it is not always necessary for a mother to convert for a child to be raised as a jew. Some people think that. Other people don't. I was speaking for those that don't. Of course people can discuss it; that's exactly what I was trying to do, to show that there are different opinions on the topic.


Personally, I think that whatever religion a child is raised with, that's their religion.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/20/2006 1:16:36 PM
Author: roxy7
Obviously, many Orthodox sects still see this as a Jewish law. But considering that the vast majority of American Jews are not Orthodox, I think it is not wise for people (especially non-Jews) to spout out who is and who is not Jewish by asking them about their bloodlines. That is an ancient Jewish law. It's like saying, 'All Jews keep kosher, and if you eat dairy with meat, then you are not a Jew.'

Gosh, Roxy, and to think I almost prefaced my remarks by saying that according to traditional Judaism and Jewish law that the mother had to be Jewish! We could have avoided all of this if I had just included that disclaimer!

My husband (a Jew) would dispute with you for the rest of his days about what you wrote. He is one of those, "everything is black or white in religion" types. He actually stopped practicing Judaism after his bar mitzah because he was outraged at the way people picked and chose the elements in which they wanted to believe. He feels that Catholics should not use birth control or miss mass and that Jews should not eat bacon or shrimp. The law is the law!!! He would say you are wrong and nothing you say can ever make you right.

I, on the other hand, am more like you. If a family in which a woman is not a Jew wishes to consider their child Jewish, that is fine with me.

According to your reasoning, of course, if the woman under discussion is not a Jew then a non-Jew like me should also be allowed to speak about the subject!

I don't agree with your reasoning, however, and think I will continue to spout my opinions even if you think only Jews should be allowed to speak on the matter.

You see, I think everyone should be allowed an opinion on anything. It's kind of a freedom of speech and freedom of thought issue with me.

After all, one need not be Italian to be a scholar of Italian history. And, as the saying goes, you don't have to be a horse to judge a horse race.


Deb

 

[roxy7]

Ugh, you kow what, I am sorry. You''re the third person to chastise me about what I wrote, so obviously there was something wrong with it.

Just forget it.

I do agree that people are entitled to their own opinions. You can imagine, however, how it would feel to be Jewish and have people come up to you and tell you that you aren''t. That''s all I was trying to get at, but obviously failed.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/20/2006 2:41:24 PM
Author: roxy7
You can imagine, however, how it would feel to be Jewish and have people come up to you and tell you that you aren''t.

Indeed. My husband''s family hated me...and I had a Jewish father (who had been a Unitarian and then become a Quaker...it''s a long story).

Deborah

 

[laney]

Uhmmm do you think they needed the computer program? Or they just have called me?

 

[laney]

Ever since I saw that cover -- I remember it distinctly - cause it looked like me! I should do a better pic tonight! That''s all I had on my computer here.

 

[PaulaW]

Whoa Laney... you weren''t kidding!! !

 

[roxy7]

AGBF, I guess we have more in common than I thought. Again, sorry

Laney, you''re beautiful. If that is the new face of America, then we have a lot to look forward to

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/20/2006 3:31:23 PM
Author: laney
Ever since I saw that cover -- I remember it distinctly - cause it looked like me!

OK, Laney, what''s your ethnicity? By which path did you become the New American Woman?

Deb

 

[glaucomflecken]

Proof that life isnt fair...Laney has a gorgeous ring set AND she is gorgeous!

 

[laney]

Deb -

I''m mixed (yeah.. ok, sorry I usually start out that way). Mom is white, Dad is black.

Mom''s side -

Great grandma - born in Czechoslovakia,Great Grandpa - german,Grandpa - All Swedish
Dad''s side - They were slaves, so "west african" brought to US. Worked through early 1900 in Maryland.

So, AmeroEuroAfricana ?? LOL!

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/20/2006 4:43:59 PM
Author: laney
I''m mixed (yeah.. ok, sorry I usually start out that way). Mom is white, Dad is black.

Mom''s side -

Great grandma - born in Czechoslovakia,Great Grandpa - german,Grandpa - All Swedish

Dad''s side - They were slaves, so ''west african'' brought to US. Worked through early 1900 in Maryland.


So, AmeroEuroAfricana ?? LOL!

Well...now we all know one winning combination for becoming the poster girl. I bet there are other routes to "the look", too! Does anyone else out there look like the picture? I would think that some South American people would have a nice combination of ethnic backrounds, too!

Deb

 

[fire&ice]

Laney - that is just plain freaky

- not you

- the resemblence to the Time pic. And, yes - you are beautiful.

Roxy - I am sorry that any of the discussion offended you. I understand your position. One is only as faithful as the practicing of faith.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/20/2006 3:40:10 PM
Author: roxy7
AGBF, I guess we have more in common than I thought. Again, sorry

You keep apologizing, and I have never acknowledged it. I am sorry to be so tardy in responding. It is nothing. I think people should be able to disagree! I am sorry if I was rough on you. I can have a sharp tongue...er, keyboard.

Deb

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 1/20/2006 2:37:09 PM
Author: AGBF





You see, I think everyone should be allowed an opinion on anything. It''s kind of a freedom of speech and freedom of thought issue with me.


Deb

Deb, having an opinion? Naw..........

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/20/2006 5:12:27 PM
Author: fire&ice
Deb, having an opinion? Naw..........

Well, although I usually am shy and retiring, once in a while I have two thoughts to rub together. It is nice of you to post this so that Roxy can see she need not take me personally, however.

Deb

 

[sunkist]

Beautiful pic, Laney! When I saw it I was actually thinking Iranian/S.American. I guess I''m not that good at picking out a person''s heritage! But you are lovely

 

[moon river]

Wow Laney, you both kinda resemble my oldest daughter. This just validates The Times point. Their new face of America was right on the money.

 

[MrsFrk]

Laney, that is amazing!
That is you! Ugh, you are gorgeous.

My best friend in Junior High was kicked out of the house and sent to live with her Orthodox Jewish relatives.
We''re talking full kosher kitchen, no electricity during the Sabbath.
We thought it was very exciting.

Has anyone seen the "Curb Your Enthusiasm" episode where Larry''s SIL''s Jewish fiance is converting to Christianity?
It is fall down funny.

 

[Mara]

To me that TIME article front page should have slightly darker skin...a little more like Laney''s appears to be in her picture. Not a huge change, but that TIME article seemed too pale-skinned to me and with not enough other ''ethnic'' features. Interesting though!!

We often wonder what our kids will look like, they will be 1/4 Persian, 1/4 Mexican, 1/4 Ukranian and 1/4 OTHER (aka Polish, Norweigan and something else!!).

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/21/2006 12:26:53 PM
Author: Mara
We often wonder what our kids will look like, they will be 1/4 Persian, 1/4 Mexican, 1/4 Ukranian and 1/4 OTHER (aka Polish, Norweigan and something else!!).

I didn''t know you were planning to have kids...not that I thought you weren''t. Have you gone public on this before?

Deb

 

[Mara]

Date: 1/21/2006 2:40:56 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 1/21/2006 12:26:53 PM
Author: Mara
We often wonder what our kids will look like, they will be 1/4 Persian, 1/4 Mexican, 1/4 Ukranian and 1/4 OTHER (aka Polish, Norweigan and something else!!).

I didn''t know you were planning to have kids...not that I thought you weren''t. Have you gone public on this before?

Deb

Well, we''re not really ''planning'' anything...but if we do have kids we wonder what they will look like.

At this point we''re just seeing where life takes us...

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/21/2006 2:51:58 PM
Author: Mara
Well, we're not really 'planning' anything...but if we do have kids we wonder what they will look like.

I used to do that . I have told my story before, so if you have seen it before, just skip my posting .

My husband is fair skinned with blue eyes and dark blonde/light brown hair. My uh...natural hair color is almost black, but I have fair skin, blonde eyebrows, and green eyes. My mother has blue eyes. So I used to dream of a fair skinned, blue-eyed baby with dark blonde to very dark hair.

When we didn't conceive, I made my first call to an adoption agency. I had some friends who had adopted previously and they had a baby from Korea. I thought the Korean babies I had seen were the most beautiful babies in the world! I really wanted one, too. But the adoption agency told me Korea was closed. ("Sources" open and close due to political considerations over time.) I was heartbroken!!!

That first agency told me I could contact the Latin American Parents Association and that they would help me adopt from South America. But I had had my heard set on a beautiful Korean baby. Would I like a South American one?

So I started to attend LAPA (Latin American Parents Association) socials. I saw some South American Indian babies, children from countries like Bolivia where not everyone is mestizo, and I fell in love with their looks. I cannot tell you how much I loved holding the other families' babies! I wanted a chubby, brown little Indian girl like those of the LAPA moms who had managed to get their babies. I cannot tell you how gorgeous those little girls were; each had a face more perfect than the last one!

We went throught the adoption process, deciding to adopt from an orphanage in Colombia.

Well...due to a glitch in travel plans, I arrived in Colombia during the weekend when the orphanage was closed. Instead of meeting me at the orphanage, the Director of the orphanage had me come to her home. She was (and is) the daughter of a former President of Colombia and her mother (the former first lady) was also at her home. I was introduced then ushered over to the couch. On the couch sat the "foster mother" with a baby in her arms. The baby was fair as can be with the bluest of blue eyes and spiky black hair. I couldn't believe that that beautiful child could be meant for me! I really couldn't believe she was going to be mine!

Then I took my daughter in my arms and thought, "So this is what she was supposed to look like!"

All my dreams were wrong. Every baby I wanted was not meant for me. I didn't get any of the babies I dreamed of. Instead I got the perfect one, the one meant for me. So I thank God for unanswered prayers .

Deb