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Infinity Diamonds... I1?

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Kaleigh

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Date: 2/14/2009 8:46:13 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 2/14/2009 8:29:06 PM
Author: strmrdr
The confusion I see stemming from this thread is to further mix up eyeclean and the lab grade.

So I am going to clarify:


Eyeclean is a judgment call based on common lighting and eyesight and is a judgment call on the vendors part and needs to be based on an agreed upon standard between you and the vendor.

Make sure you have a return policy incase your eyes don''t agree with the dealer.

The PS vendors have a ton of experience with it because they do not want someone getting upset and it costs them money and reputation if they are wrong.


The lab grade is a judgment call of the lab under 10x MAGNIFICATION and does not grant or deny a diamond eyeclean status it just sets the price. (GIA/AGS vs2 or above is usually eyeclean except on very very rare occasions, under vs2 it needs to be seen by the vendor 100% of the time for an eyeclean opinion)

Well said Storm!

Wink
Ditto, great post!!!
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strmrdr

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thanks Lisa and Wink.

For the record wifey2b''s diamond is 100% eyeclean I am the only one that has ever been able to find the inclusion in person and if I didn''t have a gift with patterns I would never find it either.
 

arjunajane

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Date: 2/14/2009 8:43:35 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 2/14/2009 8:30:51 PM
Author: arjunajane

Date: 2/14/2009 2:53:38 PM

Author: strmrdr

Here is an arrow pointing to the inclusion which is the tiny dot in front of the red arrow.

ignore the dog hair, oil and dust on the crown.

The stone is ~5mm and the side stones ~3mm to give you a size reference.

Strmy...Ask wifey2b to go clean that diamond,!
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she did right after the pics, she had been playing with tiger right before she took the pics.
Ha ha, of course Strm - just joshin with ya
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Also ditto on the good summation.
 

Skippy123

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Great thread and explanations
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Do we have one like this up top in the helpful threads on inclusions?
 

Skippy123

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Maisie, is there are diamond you are considering? hehehe
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Serg

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Date: 2/14/2009 8:29:06 PM
Author: strmrdr
The confusion I see stemming from this thread is to further mix up eyeclean and the lab grade.
So I am going to clarify:

Eyeclean is a judgment call based on common lighting and eyesight and is a judgment call on the vendors part and needs to be based on an agreed upon standard between you and the vendor.
Make sure you have a return policy incase your eyes don't agree with the dealer.
The PS vendors have a ton of experience with it because they do not want someone getting upset and it costs them money and reputation if they are wrong.

The lab grade is a judgment call of the lab under 10x MAGNIFICATION and does not grant or deny a diamond eyeclean status it just sets the price. (GIA/AGS vs2 or above is usually eyeclean except on very very rare occasions, under vs2 it needs to be seen by the vendor 100% of the time for an eyeclean opinion)

Lab’s definition SI2 has reference to diamond size through I type inclusion definition (% from area)
So for medium and small diamonds it will reduce typical absolute size SI2 inclusions .
Vendor eye-clean definition has not such type limitation ( size SI2 inclusions has not strong pressure from diamond size, but has correlation with virtual facet sizes ( what depends from size too but not so directly) )

So most probably Vendor SI2 inclusions will bigger for small diamonds than SI2 Lab’s inclusions and smaller for big diamonds .



Both approaches have advantages and disadvantages . I think size limitation for SI2 Crack type inclusions from I type inclusions is very important due durability issue .
Labs definition for I type inclusions has connection with diamonds durability . Vendor SI2 definition destroy such connection.
For clouds ,set of points it is not important. For big diamonds( 2.0+ct) it is not critical
But for small diamonds( less than 0.5ct ) with SI2 vendor cracks it could be critical

Are consumers understanding it? Are all retailers understanding it ?



Were "misgraded I1's" for 0.5 ct diamonds or for 1.5+ct diamonds? Such Critical information is absent in Infinity advertisement posts
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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If I can add to Sergey''s comment as an explanation (and please correct me if I have it wrong Sergey):

In a 10ct diamond and a .10ct diamond the border between IF and VVS1 depends on the size of the inclusion.
In a 10ct diamond an I2 inclusion takes up a certain percentage of the face up view (more if it is black, less if it is white etc)
The same 10ct diamond scaled down to .10ct might get a grade of I1 or even SI1.

There is an inherent disconnect between these grading rules that is not well understood at an intellectual level. Most of us who are experianced graders know how to do it - but we may not be conciously aware we are doiing it.
I was not until sergey pointed it out.
 

Maisie

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Date: 2/14/2009 10:37:10 PM
Author: Skippy123
Maisie, is there are diamond you are considering? hehehe
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9.gif
31.gif
 

Serg

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Date: 2/15/2009 6:00:58 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
If I can add to Sergey''s comment as an explanation (and please correct me if I have it wrong Sergey):

In a 10ct diamond and a .10ct diamond the border between IF and VVS1 depends on the size of the inclusion.
In a 10ct diamond an I2 inclusion takes up a certain percentage of the face up view (more if it is black, less if it is white etc)
The same 10ct diamond scaled down to .10ct might get a grade of I1 or even SI1.

There is an inherent disconnect between these grading rules that is not well understood at an intellectual level. Most of us who are experianced graders know how to do it - but we may not be conciously aware we are doiing it.
I was not until sergey pointed it out.

re:In a 10ct diamond and a .10ct diamond the border between IF and VVS1 depends on the size of the inclusion.

In a 10ct diamond and a .10ct diamond the border between IF and VVS1 Mainly depends on the size of the inclusion.

difference in the border between IF and VVS1 for two diamonds also depends from
1) Depth of inclusion
2) Quality of facet flatness
3) Position of inclusion
4) Light
Border between IF and VVS1 for same diamond depends from other a lot of factors ( for example from grader skills, age, sex, what he drunk yesterday ..)
 

Serg

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Date: 2/15/2009 6:00:58 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
If I can add to Sergey''s comment as an explanation (and please correct me if I have it wrong Sergey):

In a 10ct diamond and a .10ct diamond the border between IF and VVS1 depends on the size of the inclusion.
In a 10ct diamond an I2 inclusion takes up a certain percentage of the face up view (more if it is black, less if it is white etc)
The same 10ct diamond scaled down to .10ct might get a grade of I1 or even SI1.

There is an inherent disconnect between these grading rules that is not well understood at an intellectual level. Most of us who are experianced graders know how to do it - but we may not be conciously aware we are doiing it.
I was not until sergey pointed it out.
re:The same 10ct diamond scaled down to .10ct might get a grade of I1 or even SI1.

So Lab''s I1 for 0.1 ct bigger is relative to diamond size than Lab''sI1 for 10ct.
Vendor clean eye SI2 is bigger than Lab''s SI2 if we speak about small diamonds
Durability depends how crack relative big to diamond size
 

strmrdr

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The clarity grade is set by the lab and is FL-I3.
The vendor eye clean "grade" is a yes or no question based upon agreed conditions.
A vendor eye clean si2 diamond is still a si2 diamond.

Most of the prosumers are aware that clarity grading is based on the size of the diamond.
They are also aware that durability issues need to be addressed also.

One of the infinity crew can confirm but if I remember right the I1s were .70 to just a bit over 2ct.

note:
Since the question asked was specific to Infinity the Infinity crew is allowed to answer the way they did without getting into trouble about advertising.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Date: 2/15/2009 6:15:04 AM
Author: Serg

Date: 2/15/2009 6:00:58 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
If I can add to Sergey''s comment as an explanation (and please correct me if I have it wrong Sergey):

In a 10ct diamond and a .10ct diamond the border between IF and VVS1 depends on the size of the inclusion.
In a 10ct diamond an I2 inclusion takes up a certain percentage of the face up view (more if it is black, less if it is white etc)
The same 10ct diamond scaled down to .10ct might get a grade of I1 or even SI1.

There is an inherent disconnect between these grading rules that is not well understood at an intellectual level. Most of us who are experianced graders know how to do it - but we may not be conciously aware we are doiing it.
I was not until sergey pointed it out.


re:In a 10ct diamond and a .10ct diamond the border between IF and VVS1 depends on the size of the inclusion.

In a 10ct diamond and a .10ct diamond the border between IF and VVS1 Mainly depends on the size of the inclusion.

difference in the border between IF and VVS1 for two diamonds also depends from
1) Depth of inclusion
2) Quality of facet flatness
3) Position of inclusion
4) Light

Border between IF and VVS1 for same diamond depends from other a lot of factors ( for example from grader skills, age, sex, what he drunk yesterday ..)
If all was equal Sergey?
(please allow for my photoshop skills)

VVS1 5ct to .25ct.JPG
 

Serg

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Date: 2/15/2009 6:32:25 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 2/15/2009 6:15:04 AM
Author: Serg


Date: 2/15/2009 6:00:58 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
If I can add to Sergey''s comment as an explanation (and please correct me if I have it wrong Sergey):

In a 10ct diamond and a .10ct diamond the border between IF and VVS1 depends on the size of the inclusion.
In a 10ct diamond an I2 inclusion takes up a certain percentage of the face up view (more if it is black, less if it is white etc)
The same 10ct diamond scaled down to .10ct might get a grade of I1 or even SI1.

There is an inherent disconnect between these grading rules that is not well understood at an intellectual level. Most of us who are experianced graders know how to do it - but we may not be conciously aware we are doiing it.
I was not until sergey pointed it out.



re:In a 10ct diamond and a .10ct diamond the border between IF and VVS1 depends on the size of the inclusion.

In a 10ct diamond and a .10ct diamond the border between IF and VVS1 Mainly depends on the size of the inclusion.

difference in the border between IF and VVS1 for two diamonds also depends from
1) Depth of inclusion
2) Quality of facet flatness
3) Position of inclusion
4) Light


Border between IF and VVS1 for same diamond depends from other a lot of factors ( for example from grader skills, age, sex, what he drunk yesterday ..)
If all was equal Sergey?
(please allow for my photoshop skills)
All can not be equal if you scaled diamond the depth will different. If you will move inclusion to save depth, position will different.
But it is not main issue now. we are speaking about SI2/I now.
mainly you are correct about IF/VVS1. At least your statement about VVS1 correct for explanation problem SI2/I1
 

strmrdr

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Serg and Garry now you have even me confused at what your getting at.
I can''t tell if it is something new or the same lesson about size of the diamond making a difference in clarity grading.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Date: 2/15/2009 7:06:08 AM
Author: strmrdr
Serg and Garry now you have even me confused at what your getting at.
I can''t tell if it is something new or the same lesson about size of the diamond making a difference in clarity grading.
Storm at the top end the size of the inclusion makes the grade.
At the bottom end the size of the diamond and the relative size of the inclusion must be taken into account.

For example in a .10ct 3mm diamond a 1mm feather may be just visible to the naked eye and might be a border line SI2 / I1.
In a 10ct 14mm diamond that same relative sized inclusion is almost 5mm and would be I2.

The rules gradually change for diamond size, grade and inclusion size.
So to answer one part of the primary question raised in this thread, we need to know what sized diamond is being considered.
 

strmrdr

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Date: 2/15/2009 7:15:15 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Date: 2/15/2009 7:06:08 AM

Author: strmrdr

Serg and Garry now you have even me confused at what your getting at.

I can''t tell if it is something new or the same lesson about size of the diamond making a difference in clarity grading.
Storm at the top end the size of the inclusion makes the grade.

At the bottom end the size of the diamond and the relative size of the inclusion must be taken into account.


For example in a .10ct 3mm diamond a 1mm feather may be just visible to the naked eye and might be a border line SI2 / I1.

In a 10ct 14mm diamond that same relative sized inclusion is almost 5mm and would be I2.


The rules gradually change for diamond size, grade and inclusion size.

So to answer one part of the primary question raised in this thread, we need to know what sized diamond is being considered.
ok same old same old then,,,,

It is likely one of these....
=1&shapes[]=2&price_from=0&price_to=200%2C000&carat_from=0&carat_to=10&color_grade_from=1&color_grade_to=24&clarity_grade_from=8&clarity_grade_to=10&show_infinity=1&show_cut_grade[]=1&show_cut_grade[]=2&show_cut_grade[]=3&show_cut_grade[]=All&Submit=++++Search++++&limit=50:2o8h065d]really long link
 

Skippy123

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Date: 2/15/2009 6:07:17 AM
Author: Maisie

Date: 2/14/2009 10:37:10 PM
Author: Skippy123
Maisie, is there are diamond you are considering? hehehe
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31.gif
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31.gif
hehe I went away for a moment and then bam thought that Miss Maisie is up to somethin somethin. hehe
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Serg

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Date: 2/15/2009 7:19:39 AM
Author: strmrdr


Date: 2/15/2009 7:15:15 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)


Date: 2/15/2009 7:06:08 AM

Author: strmrdr

Serg and Garry now you have even me confused at what your getting at.

I can't tell if it is something new or the same lesson about size of the diamond making a difference in clarity grading.
Storm at the top end the size of the inclusion makes the grade.

At the bottom end the size of the diamond and the relative size of the inclusion must be taken into account.


For example in a .10ct 3mm diamond a 1mm feather may be just visible to the naked eye and might be a border line SI2 / I1.

In a 10ct 14mm diamond that same relative sized inclusion is almost 5mm and would be I2.


The rules gradually change for diamond size, grade and inclusion size.

So to answer one part of the primary question raised in this thread, we need to know what sized diamond is being considered.
ok same old same old then,,,,

It is likely one of these....
=1&shapes[]=2&price_from=0&price_to=200%2C000&carat_from=0&carat_to=10&color_grade_from=1&color_grade_to=24&clarity_grade_from=8&clarity_grade_to=10&show_infinity=1&show_cut_grade[]=1&show_cut_grade[]=2&show_cut_grade[]=3&show_cut_grade[]=All&Submit=++++Search++++&limit=50:2o8h065d]really long link


Karl,

Early we discussed about reasons, now we are discussing about consequences. Influence of this conflict in clarity grading system to durability is important consequence



 

NeverEndingUpgrade

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Date: 2/13/2009 3:14:19 PM
Author:Maisie
If its an Infinity Diamond will the inclusions in an I1 be less obvious than in a less well cut diamond? I wonder why I feel silly asking that. I know its down to how good your eyes are of course!
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Maisie, I respectfully breezed past the posts of the experts because they are way over my head. I would think that in general yes, in an Infinity diamond inclusions would be less obvious than in other cuts. It is not silly to ask that. Some of us need to go down in clarity to even afford an Infinity over another RB, but are willing to do so because as others pointed out, certain types of inclusions are not noticeable without a loupe and/or can be covered by a prong.

I wore an I1 marquise for 14 years and swore I would never own another, but I would seriously consider an I1 Infinity if the price were right. Besides, "eye-cleanness" to my 44-year-old eyes is a lot different from my 24-year-old eyes!
 

Maisie

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Hehe Skippy! You know me too well!!

NEU I know what you mean. Most of what has been said makes no sense to me.. but thats fine. I don''t really mind. As long as I understand that hopefully I won''t notice any inclusions with my 37 year old eyes!!
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strmrdr

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Date: 2/15/2009 3:22:46 PM
Author: Serg

Early we discussed about reasons, now we are discussing about consequences. Influence of this conflict in clarity grading system to durability is important consequence




Paul would not put his name on a stone with durability issues so relating to Infinity that is not valid.
In relation to the entire diamond world, When buying any diamond with inclusions asking about durability concerns is valid and when the PS prosumers see something that might be a concern we tell the person to discuss it with the vendor.
It is really not a huge issue because we have it covered.
 

strmrdr

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Just as a heads up for consumers there have been and will be Infinity I1s that are not eyeclean it is a stone by stone call.
Discuss it with your vendor they will be more than happy to check and see if the one your considering is eyeclean.
 
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