Find your diamond
Find your jewelry
shape
carat
color
clarity

Infinity Diamonds... I1?

Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.

Maisie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 30, 2006
Messages
12,578
If its an Infinity Diamond will the inclusions in an I1 be less obvious than in a less well cut diamond? I wonder why I feel silly asking that. I know its down to how good your eyes are of course!
 

Lorelei

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
42,064
Date: 2/13/2009 3:14:19 PM
Author:Maisie
If its an Infinity Diamond will the inclusions in an I1 be less obvious than in a less well cut diamond? I wonder why I feel silly asking that. I know its down to how good your eyes are of course!
Hiya Bruddah!

As you know I1's aren't created equal but I think it is possible for an Infinity or other top cut diamonds to be able to make inclusion/s less obvious due to the best light return.

Check out this page Brud.

http://www.highperformancediamonds.com/index.php?page=diamond-infinity-about
 

Maisie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 30, 2006
Messages
12,578
Date: 2/13/2009 3:16:45 PM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 2/13/2009 3:14:19 PM
Author:Maisie
If its an Infinity Diamond will the inclusions in an I1 be less obvious than in a less well cut diamond? I wonder why I feel silly asking that. I know its down to how good your eyes are of course!
Hiya Bruddah!

As you know I1''s aren''t created equal but I think it is possible for an Infinity or other top cut diamonds to be able to make inclusion/s less obvious due to the best light return.
Hey Bruddah! You got mail!!
 

Lorelei

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
42,064
Date: 2/13/2009 3:17:25 PM
Author: Maisie



Date: 2/13/2009 3:16:45 PM
Author: Lorelei




Date: 2/13/2009 3:14:19 PM
Author:Maisie
If its an Infinity Diamond will the inclusions in an I1 be less obvious than in a less well cut diamond? I wonder why I feel silly asking that. I know its down to how good your eyes are of course!
Hiya Bruddah!

As you know I1's aren't created equal but I think it is possible for an Infinity or other top cut diamonds to be able to make inclusion/s less obvious due to the best light return.
Hey Bruddah! You got mail!!
* going to check*


Hiya Coaties!! * cough!*
 

Maisie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 30, 2006
Messages
12,578

glitterata

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
3,618
It depends on the particular diamond, but in my experience, yes, inclusions in Infinity I1s are harder to see.

I own one and was a little disappointed to find that I can''t see the inclusions without a loupe. Call me weird, but I actually like inclusions and wanted to be able to see them! Here''s my thread on it: My infinity I1

If you have any questions about a particular stone, ask Wink. He''s a straightforward, honest guy--he''ll tell you the truth about what he sees.
 

Maisie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 30, 2006
Messages
12,578
Date: 2/13/2009 3:46:17 PM
Author: glitterata
It depends on the particular diamond, but in my experience, yes, inclusions in Infinity I1s are harder to see.

I own one and was a little disappointed to find that I can''t see the inclusions without a loupe. Call me weird, but I actually like inclusions and wanted to be able to see them! Here''s my thread on it: My infinity I1

If you have any questions about a particular stone, ask Wink. He''s a straightforward, honest guy--he''ll tell you the truth about what he sees.
Thanks Glitterata. Its interesting to find someone who actually wants to see inclusions. I have never considered anything over SI1 before so this is new territory for me.
 

Paul-Antwerp

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Messages
2,852
Hi Maisie,

Your question is probably based upon observation or upon testimonials like the one from Glitterata. Even though these observations are probably correct, we are not geniuses nor magicians. There are several factors at play which ultimately lead to the public''s observations.

First, there is the problem that during most of 2008, AGS was extremely strict in their clarity-grading, and a lot of stones that they now would grade SI2 was graded I1 in that period. Other cutters most probably have sent these stones to GIA in order to get the SI2-grade, but we have stuck with our choice of lab. Today, also AGS will grade a high number of our I1''s of last year as SI2.

Another aspect has to do with our planning and the experience we gained in this field. Logically, when planning our rough, we take the orientation and location of the inclusions into consideration, and make sure that the inclusions are least visible in the final stone. If we do not feel capable of sufficiently masking the inclusions, we will not produce this stone and sell it to another cutter.

In this regard, we have learned some new insights that are not in line with age-old adagios in the industry. This also has a certain effect:

Industry-adagio 1: Black inclusions are easier visible than white inclusions and thus less desirable. We have learned that the exact opposite is true in our production of super-ideals. To some extent to our surprise, we feel that white inclusions often are easier to see with the naked eye than black inclusions.

Industry-adagio 2: Centrally located inclusions are easier visible than inclusions on the sde and thus less desirable. Again, we have learned that the exact opposite is true in our production of super-ideals. Also here, we were surprised to some extent to find that it is easier to see side-inclusions with the naked eye while central inclusions are easier to mask.

Because of this experience, we are not afraid to plan a black inclusion in the center of the table. We had the funny experience when visiting one of our dealers last month, where the owner did not want to buy a SI2 with a central black inclusion, while his sales associates really wanted to sell that stone since the inclusion was in no way visible to the naked eye. It is old industry-wisdom versus unbiased observation, actually.

The old industry-wisdom might play to our disadvantage too in lab-grading. We suspect that when a lab-grader is checking clarity with the microscope (where the brightness of the stone has no effect), stones with central and/or black inclusions are more easily downgraded. As a result, it is no surprise that a high number of these lab-I1''s actually are observed as being eye-clean. This is very unfortunate, and basically to our disadvantage. On the other hand, it definitely is advantageous for the consumer.

Live long,
 

glitterata

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
3,618
Paul, thank you for that interesting and detailed answer!

My I1 is from 2008, and it has a couple of clear crystals under the table, so although it doesn''t have any dark crystals, it does fit the rest of that description.

Why do you think dark inclusions are harder to see in well-cut diamonds than white inclusions? Do you understand why that is?

I can imagine that central inclusions might be harder to see because they might not reflect as much--is that true?

I didn''t know that AGS had loosened up on their clarity grading. If my I1 were sent back to them, would it keep its grade, or might they change it to SI2? (Just curious--I like having an I1.)
 

diagem

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Messages
4,929
Date: 2/14/2009 10:59:19 AM
Author: glitterata
Paul, thank you for that interesting and detailed answer!

My I1 is from 2008, and it has a couple of clear crystals under the table, so although it doesn''t have any dark crystals, it does fit the rest of that description.

Why do you think dark inclusions are harder to see in well-cut diamonds than white inclusions? Do you understand why that is?

I can imagine that central inclusions might be harder to see because they might not reflect as much--is that true?

I didn''t know that AGS had loosened up on their clarity grading. If my I1 were sent back to them, would it keep its grade, or might they change it to SI2? (Just curious--I like having an I1.)
I''ll try via my point of view...

It has to do with contrast..., the right sizes and correct scattered placement of minuscule black inclusions can blend better than white inclusions (more often feathers) that actually block light return and so is more noticeable in certain positions.

Age-old adagios in this industry are changing extremely slow and its nice too see and read that a new generation Diamantaires take these old-practices to their advantage!

Nicely written Paul...

I would expect that Gemological education would loose some of those Age-old adagios
.
 

Maisie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 30, 2006
Messages
12,578
Thank you Paul for that interesting and easy to understand explanation! I love it when I get it! I have been chatting to Dr Indira Marchant and I am hoping to visit her in the near future to view some Infinity diamonds.
 

Serg

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 21, 2002
Messages
2,501
Date: 2/14/2009 10:59:19 AM
Author: glitterata
Paul, thank you for that interesting and detailed answer!

My I1 is from 2008, and it has a couple of clear crystals under the table, so although it doesn't have any dark crystals, it does fit the rest of that description.

Why do you think dark inclusions are harder to see in well-cut diamonds than white inclusions? Do you understand why that is?

I can imagine that central inclusions might be harder to see because they might not reflect as much--is that true?

I didn't know that AGS had loosened up on their clarity grading. If my I1 were sent back to them, would it keep its grade, or might they change it to SI2? (Just curious--I like having an I1.)
re:Why do you think dark inclusions are harder to see in well-cut diamonds than white inclusions? Do you understand why that is?


If stone has clear visible and static black arrow pattern , cutter can use it to camouflage dark inclusions.

But dark and white inclusions is not 100% correct definition . Inclusions lightness depends from cut, light schema and position inclusion in diamonds
Round diamonds with high level symmetry have bigger and more static virtual facets, what create big opportunity to camouflage even relative big inclusions even in the central part table
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
Date: 2/14/2009 2:27:19 PM
Author: Serg

re:Why do you think dark inclusions are harder to see in well-cut diamonds than white inclusions? Do you understand why that is?



If stone has clear visible and static black arrow pattern , cutter can use it to camouflage dark inclusions.

But dark and white inclusions is not 100% correct definition . Inclusions lightness depends from cut, light schema and position inclusion in diamonds

Round diamonds with high level symmetry have bigger and more static virtual facets, what create big opportunity to camouflage even relative inclusions even in the central part table

Inclusions that disrupt the patterns are the ones that are easy to see.
In the diamond I got wifey2b I can see a vs1 inclusions effect on the pattern and find it by eye.
It is a teeny tiny dot white dot about 1/5 the size of this period . near the culet that disrupts the pattern.
It is the top end of a GIA vs1 feather that runs up and down the stone a short distance and returns a tiny pinpoint of light.
Wifey2b has much much better eyesight than me and she can not see it.
I cant only find it with a loupe without darkfield after much looking but in the right lighting can find it every time by eye.
It drove me nuts for a while lol
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
Here is an arrow pointing to the inclusion which is the tiny dot in front of the red arrow.
ignore the dog hair, oil and dust on the crown.
The stone is ~5mm and the side stones ~3mm to give you a size reference.

vsiInclusion.JPG
 

Serg

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 21, 2002
Messages
2,501
Date: 2/14/2009 9:46:32 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Hi Maisie,

Your question is probably based upon observation or upon testimonials like the one from Glitterata. Even though these observations are probably correct, we are not geniuses nor magicians. There are several factors at play which ultimately lead to the public''s observations.

First, there is the problem that during most of 2008, AGS was extremely strict in their clarity-grading, and a lot of stones that they now would grade SI2 was graded I1 in that period. Other cutters most probably have sent these stones to GIA in order to get the SI2-grade, but we have stuck with our choice of lab. Today, also AGS will grade a high number of our I1''s of last year as SI2.

Another aspect has to do with our planning and the experience we gained in this field. Logically, when planning our rough, we take the orientation and location of the inclusions into consideration, and make sure that the inclusions are least visible in the final stone. If we do not feel capable of sufficiently masking the inclusions, we will not produce this stone and sell it to another cutter.

In this regard, we have learned some new insights that are not in line with age-old adagios in the industry. This also has a certain effect:

Industry-adagio 1: Black inclusions are easier visible than white inclusions and thus less desirable. We have learned that the exact opposite is true in our production of super-ideals. To some extent to our surprise, we feel that white inclusions often are easier to see with the naked eye than black inclusions.

Industry-adagio 2: Centrally located inclusions are easier visible than inclusions on the sde and thus less desirable. Again, we have learned that the exact opposite is true in our production of super-ideals. Also here, we were surprised to some extent to find that it is easier to see side-inclusions with the naked eye while central inclusions are easier to mask.

Because of this experience, we are not afraid to plan a black inclusion in the center of the table. We had the funny experience when visiting one of our dealers last month, where the owner did not want to buy a SI2 with a central black inclusion, while his sales associates really wanted to sell that stone since the inclusion was in no way visible to the naked eye. It is old industry-wisdom versus unbiased observation, actually.

The old industry-wisdom might play to our disadvantage too in lab-grading. We suspect that when a lab-grader is checking clarity with the microscope (where the brightness of the stone has no effect), stones with central and/or black inclusions are more easily downgraded. As a result, it is no surprise that a high number of these lab-I1''s actually are observed as being eye-clean. This is very unfortunate, and basically to our disadvantage. On the other hand, it definitely is advantageous for the consumer.

Live long,
Really ?
 

Wink

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
May 3, 2001
Messages
7,472
Not sure which part of Paul''s post you are asking really about, but I sense a touch of sarcasm.

Yes, really, it is always to the consumer''s advantage if the diamonds are graded correctly, and AGS did some study on diamond grading after many of us complained that they were too strict on SI2''s in comparrison with GIA. They found out that indeed they were grading diamonds I1 that woud be graded SI2 by GIA and they meticulesly worked to bring their clarity grading into sync with GIA.

After all, it is GIA''s grading system and they set the standards, so it makes good sense that AGS should try to match their grading standards with those employed by the company that set the standard.

How can that not be in the interest of the consumer?

If you are questioning whether it was to their advantage to buy a diamond graded and priced as an I1 when AGS was being too strict, then how can getting an eye clean diamond at an eye visible price not be to the consumer''s advantage?

Wink
 

Wink

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
May 3, 2001
Messages
7,472
I will go on to say that not all of Pauls I1 diamonds are misgraded I1''s, and they are still beautiful! In a 1.5ct that is shown in my gallery it is the colorless inclusion on the edge that is visible to the eye while the black inclusions that are so evident in the photograph of the diamond are not. Yet even though visible, to close examination, they are not to a normal viewing distance view.

I do not know or care why, I will leave that to the great thinkers and cutters, but I can tell you it is a beautiful diamond, in spite of the paper. I have attempted to clearly show this by showing it through the loupe, then without the loupe in the video that is posted with it. It is now sold to one of two clients, one has first right of refusal and the other wants it if it is refused, so I do not think this constitutes advertising. If I am wrong the moderator will please remove this post.

Wink
 

Serg

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 21, 2002
Messages
2,501
Date: 2/14/2009 5:37:12 PM
Author: Wink
Not sure which part of Paul''s post you are asking really about, but I sense a touch of sarcasm.

Yes, really, it is always to the consumer''s advantage if the diamonds are graded correctly, and AGS did some study on diamond grading after many of us complained that they were too strict on SI2''s in comparrison with GIA. They found out that indeed they were grading diamonds I1 that woud be graded SI2 by GIA and they meticulesly worked to bring their clarity grading into sync with GIA.

After all, it is GIA''s grading system and they set the standards, so it makes good sense that AGS should try to match their grading standards with those employed by the company that set the standard.

How can that not be in the interest of the consumer?

If you are questioning whether it was to their advantage to buy a diamond graded and priced as an I1 when AGS was being too strict, then how can getting an eye clean diamond at an eye visible price not be to the consumer''s advantage?

Wink
Wink,

re:observed as being eye-clean.

Could you see GIA SI2 without loupe?

re: also AGS will grade a high number of our I1''s of last year as SI2.

Will ASG upgrade Infinity I1 diamonds with ASG 2008 year grading report ?
 

John Pollard

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
3,559
Date: 2/14/2009 2:27:19 PM
Author: Serg

Date: 2/14/2009 10:59:19 AM
Author: glitterata
Paul, thank you for that interesting and detailed answer!

My I1 is from 2008, and it has a couple of clear crystals under the table, so although it doesn''t have any dark crystals, it does fit the rest of that description.

Why do you think dark inclusions are harder to see in well-cut diamonds than white inclusions? Do you understand why that is?

I can imagine that central inclusions might be harder to see because they might not reflect as much--is that true?

I didn''t know that AGS had loosened up on their clarity grading. If my I1 were sent back to them, would it keep its grade, or might they change it to SI2? (Just curious--I like having an I1.)
re:Why do you think dark inclusions are harder to see in well-cut diamonds than white inclusions? Do you understand why that is?

If stone has clear visible and static black arrow pattern, cutter can use it to camouflage dark inclusions.
But dark and white inclusions is not 100% correct definition . Inclusions lightness depends from cut, light schema and position inclusion in diamonds
Round diamonds with high level symmetry have bigger and more static virtual facets, what create big opportunity to camouflage even relative big inclusions even in the central part table
This is an area where the cutters I know and modern technology as Serg describes it are in-sync. Depending on the nature, position and relief of an inclusion a proper planner may be able to orient the rough so that it becomes transparent or less visible in the peformance scheme thanks to the virtual facets and patterning described.
 

John Pollard

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
3,559
I did not see Serg's post as sarcastic Wink. I presume Sergey isn't sending a lot of diamonds to GIA and AGSL. So, as an interested gemologist, I understand the curiosity.

My understanding is that there is constant pressure on AGS to match GIA in color & clarity exactly. Erring on the soft side would damage their reputation, so the AGSL admin constantly reminds their graders to err on the side of consumer protection. A by-product of that urging last year was a 'flex' toward the strict side in clarity. They received complaints from several clients who submit to both labs. We observed that trend firsthand. Subjective grading allows such flex... It's like adjusting the water flow in the shower to maintain the 'perfect' temperature; you turn the knob too far and it may get too hot, so you turn it back. Until we have repeatability in the areas of color and clarity such flex will be possible. That subjectivity is also why it's standard industry practice to allow a tolerance of one grade color or clarity (unmounted), between lab & appraiser for example.
 

Serg

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 21, 2002
Messages
2,501
Date: 2/14/2009 5:44:13 PM
Author: Wink
I will go on to say that not all of Pauls I1 diamonds are misgraded I1''s, and they are still beautiful! In a 1.5ct that is shown in my gallery it is the colorless inclusion on the edge that is visible to the eye while the black inclusions that are so evident in the photograph of the diamond are not. Yet even though visible, to close examination, they are not to a normal viewing distance view.

I do not know or care why, I will leave that to the great thinkers and cutters, but I can tell you it is a beautiful diamond, in spite of the paper. I have attempted to clearly show this by showing it through the loupe, then without the loupe in the video that is posted with it. It is now sold to one of two clients, one has first right of refusal and the other wants it if it is refused, so I do not think this constitutes advertising. If I am wrong the moderator will please remove this post.

Wink
re:I will go on to say that not all of Pauls I1 diamonds are misgraded I1''s,

Who does guaranty what consumer will not see( without loupe ) these misgraded I1''s?
Do you or Infinity guaranty it?
 

Wink

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
May 3, 2001
Messages
7,472
Too many variables involved Serg. It depends on the specific diamond and the specific client, but that has always been the case in eye-clean judgments. I will say that of the thousands of SI and I1 diamonds I’ve seen over my life, Paul seems to consistently employ the strategies he, DiaGem, Strm and you already talked about, so that an abundance of his SI and I1 diamonds are clean to the normal person.

I guarantee to describe any diamond I offer exactly as I see it to my clients. That’s something I’ve done for 30 years which just seems obvious and necessary to me. I never listed that but I know how concerned shoppers are with getting precise details, so it might be helpful to put that forward as a guarantee.

Wink
 

Serg

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 21, 2002
Messages
2,501
Date: 2/14/2009 7:50:06 PM
Author: Wink
Too many variables involved Serg. It depends on the specific diamond and the specific client, but that has always been the case in eye-clean judgments. I will say that of the thousands of SI and I1 diamonds I’ve seen over my life, Paul seems to consistently employ the strategies he, DiaGem, Strm and you already talked about, so that an abundance of his SI and I1 diamonds are clean to the normal person.

I guarantee to describe any diamond I offer exactly as I see it to my clients. That’s something I’ve done for 30 years which just seems obvious and necessary to me. I never listed that but I know how concerned shoppers are with getting precise details, so it might be helpful to put that forward as a guarantee.

Wink
Wink,
There were GIA SI2, AGS SI2. Now Are we speaking about Infinity SI2 too?
EGL SI2, IGI SI3, Tiffany ,..
It looks more and more confusing for consumers. Too much ''Standards'' for my Taste. Too Much Ideals,
I advice find better ideas for differentiation( for real Differentiation your products and service)
Illegible "Standards" are just reduce consumer confidence .
 

glitterata

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
3,618
I think Wink does a great job explaining to his customers what they can expect to see when they receive their diamond. *I* wasn''t confused, anyway.

Are you suggesting that all diamond dealers should use a single lab so their diamonds can be compared consistently? That might be nice for the consumer and the winning lab, but I don''t think it''s going to happen.
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
The confusion I see stemming from this thread is to further mix up eyeclean and the lab grade.
So I am going to clarify:

Eyeclean is a judgment call based on common lighting and eyesight and is a judgment call on the vendors part and needs to be based on an agreed upon standard between you and the vendor.
Make sure you have a return policy incase your eyes don''t agree with the dealer.
The PS vendors have a ton of experience with it because they do not want someone getting upset and it costs them money and reputation if they are wrong.

The lab grade is a judgment call of the lab under 10x MAGNIFICATION and does not grant or deny a diamond eyeclean status it just sets the price. (GIA/AGS vs2 or above is usually eyeclean except on very very rare occasions, under vs2 it needs to be seen by the vendor 100% of the time for an eyeclean opinion)
 

arjunajane

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 18, 2008
Messages
9,758
Date: 2/14/2009 2:53:38 PM
Author: strmrdr
Here is an arrow pointing to the inclusion which is the tiny dot in front of the red arrow.
ignore the dog hair, oil and dust on the crown.
The stone is ~5mm and the side stones ~3mm to give you a size reference.
Strmy...Ask wifey2b to go clean that diamond,!
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
Date: 2/14/2009 8:30:51 PM
Author: arjunajane
Date: 2/14/2009 2:53:38 PM

Author: strmrdr

Here is an arrow pointing to the inclusion which is the tiny dot in front of the red arrow.

ignore the dog hair, oil and dust on the crown.

The stone is ~5mm and the side stones ~3mm to give you a size reference.
Strmy...Ask wifey2b to go clean that diamond,!
she did right after the pics, she had been playing with tiger right before she took the pics.
 

Wink

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
May 3, 2001
Messages
7,472
Date: 2/14/2009 8:29:06 PM
Author: strmrdr
The confusion I see stemming from this thread is to further mix up eyeclean and the lab grade.

So I am going to clarify:


Eyeclean is a judgment call based on common lighting and eyesight and is a judgment call on the vendors part and needs to be based on an agreed upon standard between you and the vendor.

Make sure you have a return policy incase your eyes don''t agree with the dealer.

The PS vendors have a ton of experience with it because they do not want someone getting upset and it costs them money and reputation if they are wrong.


The lab grade is a judgment call of the lab under 10x MAGNIFICATION and does not grant or deny a diamond eyeclean status it just sets the price. (GIA/AGS vs2 or above is usually eyeclean except on very very rare occasions, under vs2 it needs to be seen by the vendor 100% of the time for an eyeclean opinion)
Well said Storm!

Wink
 
Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.
Be a part of the community It's free, join today!
    Vintage OEC Bracelet
    Vintage OEC Bracelet
    June’s Birthstone Trinity
    June’s Birthstone Trinity
    Memorial Day Jewelry 2020
    Memorial Day Jewelry 2020

Need Something Special?

Get a quote from multiple trusted and vetted jewelers.

Holloway Cut Advisor



Diamond Eye Candy

Click to view full-size image.
Top