ID Jewelry in NYC, while im in LA

denverappraiser · Jan 23, 2017

Labs and appraisers are chosen strategically by sellers. Jewelers buy pre-sale paperwork for 4 basic reasons.

1) Sometimes things with paperwork sell better, faster, and for money than things without. It reduces arguments about grades, it reduces cognitive dissonance and returns because shoppers see it as evidence of a bargain or of quality (or both). There is no correct answer for what is 'best'. It depends on your objectives. Your objectives probably aren't the same as theirs.
2) Insurance companies often require it, and if the seller doesn’t provide it the customer is at risk of going into a competitor. That has all sorts of downsides, some real and some imaginary.
3) There are lots of liabilities and risk exposures in this business. Put bluntly, people can get sued for misrepresentation. Paperwork helps this.
4) It improves the overall credibility of the jeweler to align themselves with a highly credible source.

This is why to hire GIA. These are also the reasons to hire AGI. Or me. Or someone in-house. Anyone really. Not every item needs to follow the same path, not every client needs to be given the same paperwork. It's about the money.

flyingpig · Jan 23, 2017

eugchen|1485192749|4118574 said:
"
i guess the point of many on this thread Yekutiel is why cant you pay $100 for GIA grading and immediately upsell this pair for more....can you do this? because wont these diamonds be worth much more with GIA papers? i dont know the answer, that is why im asking you.
thank you

The answer is simple. IDJ knows that if graded by GIA, the AGI stones will be more difficult to sell.
They know those stones have no chance for GIA Ex H SI.
By not sending to GIA, they are selling those as is. They are technically not hiding any information.
If they send those to GIA and the reports come back with something that many consumers avoid (VG cut grade, J/K color, SI2/I1 clarity), now IDJ must disclose this information. If they hide it, it will be extremely unethical.

It is a strategical decision. It is better not to have any GIA paperwork.

It is better to wait for gullible uneducated consumers, who think they found a good deal.
Ungraded H SI vs GIA VG/Ex J I1? What is the faster mover?? I think the former.

These vendors aren't fools. In fact, very smart. After all, they are dealing with precious stones priced at $5000~$10000 per 0.2g

“Report number” which indicates to me it’s their personal opinion and not a fact.

by IDJ

Interesting, a report from a reputable scientific laboratory is an "OPINION".
It is a gross business tactic the industry use when selling non AGS/GIA. "Yea.. well.. it is just their opinion", which I hear from mall stores.
On the other hand when selling GIA/AGS, "you should only buy GIA or AGS diamonds".

Yekutiel · Jan 23, 2017

Hi Kenny
I would love to go dance with you. Whenever your in town bring your dancing shoes. I highly respect and appreciate your advice and the time you take to help everyone on the forums. with regards to the OP I have had a lengthy phone conversation with him regarding the differences. and I would never sell anything to a consumer without disclosing all the facts. I am not selling him MY certificate. I happen to have this pair AGI certified . If the OP has any questions have him reach out to AGI and ask them if they are on pair with GIA grading standards. I have told the OP That I do NOT agree that they will get the same grade as GIA certified diamonds. and therefore I can only guarantee the value of the price he would be paying. I strongly advised the OP I would recommend going with GIA certified and I will find him something spectacular if he wanted me too. and if he really insisted going with the AGI studs I offered him a 60 Day full return policy if he didn't care for them. I cannot choose for the consumer I can only advise and explain the differences. We carry everything in our shop from non certified, clarity enhanced, foreverone moissanite and Amora gems in the store. I like to cater to everyone needsand wants . and please dont forget that I have explained all this to the OP before getting any payment and even took extra photos to ensure his satisfaction. I work really hard to make everyone happy with the end results according to what they want to buy.

gm89uk · Jan 23, 2017

Can't ask for more than a fully informed customer who has already reached a conclusion.

kenny · Jan 23, 2017

Yekutiel|1485210612|4118719 said:
Hi Kenny
I would love to go dance with you. Whenever your in town bring your dancing shoes. I highly respect and appreciate your advice and the time you take to help everyone on the forums. with regards to the OP I have had a lengthy phone conversation with him regarding the differences. and I would never sell anything to a consumer without disclosing all the facts. I am not selling him MY certificate. I happen to have this pair AGI certified . If the OP has any questions have him reach out to AGI and ask them if they are on pair with GIA grading standards. I have told the OP That I do NOT agree that they will get the same grade as GIA certified diamonds. and therefore I can only guarantee the value of the price he would be paying. I strongly advised the OP I would recommend going with GIA certified and I will find him something spectacular if he wanted me too. and if he really insisted going with the AGI studs I offered him a 60 Day full return policy if he didn't care for them. I cannot choose for the consumer I can only advise and explain the differences. We carry everything in our shop from non certified, clarity enhanced, foreverone moissanite and Amora gems in the store. I like to cater to everyone needsand wants . and please dont forget that I have explained all this to the OP before getting any payment and even took extra photos to ensure his satisfaction. I work really hard to make everyone happy with the end results according to what they want to buy.

Nothing personal, Yekutiel.
I understand this 'crime' (selling diamonds with color and clarity 'grades' that are below GIA and AGS standards is widespread.
BTW, grades being merely opinion? ... Uhm, no! ... G means something ... VS2 means something!
What grades mean is support for price.

I suspect the majority of diamonds marketed do not have lab reports from reputable labs, and are sold to buyers who don't know any better.
You're (not 'your' BTW) no worse than most.

I'm just on an crusade of diamond education & ethics, which puts me at odds with much of the diamond selling community.

Tough very unlikely given my age and health, were I to find myself in your neck of the woods I'd call you, identify myself, and if you have time and inclination would be glad to buy you a beer/wine/scotch/soda/tea/coffee/overpriced water and chat.
I'm a very nice friendly guy.

Still, for all the reasons I've already stated I oppose sellers misrepresenting diamond color and clarity grades as much as I do misrepresenting carat weight.

Yekutiel · Jan 23, 2017

Definitely Kenny I am looking forward meeting you in person. And yes I agree with you on educating consumers is the best and only way to build your reputation and become successful. My Shop is in located in heart of the New York Diamond District which means that I am up against the biggest competition and unfortunately not the most honest atmosphere of sellers on jewelers row. therefore I must carry stock of everything so I can show my customers the visual differences so I don't lose the sale and I gain the customers trust as well. I have clients that tell me they don't see the difference to pay the difference and then I have clients that simply don't care, or they are just looking for the best bang for their buck. every client has different goals and I will do my best to be straight forward with then and disclose everything to them.

Yekutiel · Jan 23, 2017

alexkeating he is an online customer that never came to the store and to answer your question I ask every customer a series of questions and try to find out as much information I can. And then give them all their options to make an informative decision.

Queenie60 · Jan 23, 2017

alexkeating|1485212242|4118737 said:
Yekutiel|1485210612|4118719 said:

I work really hard to make everyone happy with the end results according to what they want to buy.

Click to expand...

Yekutiel you sound like you care about your business reputation and are conscious of the issue we are discussing here. I get that you have made it clear to this customer that labs are not all grading with the same standards.

It also sounds like (as you had to send pictures) this is not someone who you met in the store they were shopping online.

But I don't understand why your responses are dodging the issue. Obviously if you sent these stones to GIA and got a grading report with the same specs as the AGI one you wouldn't be selling the pair for the current price you would likely ask for much more. As an experienced seller you know the different lab grading standards and the market discounting of them much better than a consumer would.

But that isn't really what this customer has to consider from their side its more like the scenario below:

"Customer walks into your store with a 25k budget for a pair of earrings wants a pair of 4cttw earrings, would you offer them only these out of convenience or call in a pair of GIA graded ones for a similar price? "

Which one is likely to provide better value if they had the choice?

Hello alexkeating: Welcome to PS. It's always nice to see new posters coming aboard. I would like to chime in on this conversation. I am a consumer and have dealt with Yekutiel many times. I just want to say to anyone reading this thread that I have (and many others on PriceScope as well) the highest regard for Yekutiel and his business practices. I live in California and he is my "go to" jeweler and I have recommended him to family members, purchasing high ticketed items. I have no doubt that Yekutiel went above and beyond to explain the differences to the OP. He's an honest man with high integrity. I just want everyone to know this.

eugchen · Jan 23, 2017

"The answer is simple. IDJ knows that if graded by GIA, the AGI stones will be more difficult to sell.
They know those stones have no chance for GIA Ex H SI.
By not sending to GIA, they are selling those as is. They are technically not hiding any information."

that is very insightful...

Kenny, GIA gradings are opinions, no matter what you say. they ARE NOT science based answers. they are more of an art. GIA gemologists happen to be the industry standards, and are GOOD STRICT opinions, but they are still opinions and subjective for that matter. im sure you can have two GIA individuals and not grade exactly the same on both diamonds. but i do agree that it is the industry standard as far as grading and have effectively done so since 1931.

for the record, Yekutiel did explain things to me, and was as transparent as possible. i have no beef with Yekutiel. im sure all the reviews he has are 100% legitimate. the question now is whether these nongraded, or AGI appraised diamonds are worth the money vs GIA/AGS/EGL diamonds.

nothing personal to anyone on my end. this is all business. obvious PS readers are a cut above the rest and more informed and hopefully less scamed in general.

denverappraiser · Jan 23, 2017

eugchen|1485217933|4118790 said:
EGL

EGL? How did EGL get into this?

flyingpig · Jan 23, 2017

eugchen|1485217933|4118790 said:
"
Kenny, GIA gradings are opinions, no matter what you say. they ARE NOT science based answers. they are more of an art.

I absolutely disagree.
Gemology is a science. GIA is perhaps the biggest and most reputable research and education institute.
Its grading system is based on research and study.
You can question GIA grading system's methodology and its limitations. But I cannot agree it is not based on science and more of an art.

kenny · Jan 23, 2017

flyingpig|1485219481|4118807 said:
eugchen|1485217933|4118790 said:

"
Kenny, GIA gradings are opinions, no matter what you say. they ARE NOT science based answers. they are more of an art.

Click to expand...

I absolutely disagree.

Oh come on, eugchen is right.
Color and clarity grades ARE an art.

One artist can call a diamond a D IF.
Another artist can call it a S I2.
It's all just opinion, you know.
But the price? That's not opinion at all. Pay what the seller convinces you it's worth. Just trust the seller. Verifying grades is tacky, rude and unartistic.

Those people at GIA are not art lovers, so ignore THEM.
Education is for those evil liberal elites.
All that matters is you LOVE a diamond.

Next, an "artistic" vendor can sell it to a fellow art lover (who follows their heart) at a D IF price or whatever can be extracted from the ignorant.
Everyone wins.

It's all good.
Move along, folks.
Nothing to see here.

eugchen · Jan 23, 2017

flyingpig|1485219481|4118807 said:
eugchen|1485217933|4118790 said:

"
Kenny, GIA gradings are opinions, no matter what you say. they ARE NOT science based answers. they are more of an art.

Click to expand...

I absolutely disagree.

back it up then.

https://www.gia.edu/gem-lab-how-gia-grades-diamond

GIAs own website---the word "OPINION" shows up 7 times on ONE PAGE

1. Color graders submit their independent opinions into the system.
2. During this phase, graders are not privy to color opinions entered previously.
3. The color grade is determined when there are sufficient agreeing opinions.
4. Initially, a grader assigns an opinion of the diamond’s clarity, polish and symmetry, then plots the clarity characteristics on a diagram most representative of the diamond’s shape and faceting style, which is selected from a database of hundreds of digitally stored diagrams.
5.Depending on the diamond’s weight, quality, and the agreement of grading opinions, additional quality assurance process steps are also performed.
6. More experienced staff gemologists may review all of the previous grading information and render independent clarity/polish/symmetry opinions.
7. Grading results are finalized once there are sufficient agreeing opinions.

show me how grading diamonds are not a man or womans OPINION.

eugchen · Jan 23, 2017

kenny|1485220045|4118816 said:
flyingpig|1485219481|4118807 said:

eugchen|1485217933|4118790 said:

"
Kenny, GIA gradings are opinions, no matter what you say. they ARE NOT science based answers. they are more of an art.

Click to expand...

I absolutely disagree.

Click to expand...

Oh come on, eugchen is right.
Color and clarity grades ARE an art.

One artist can call a diamond a D IF.
Another artist can call it a S I2.
It's all just opinion, you know.
But the price? That's not opinion at all. Pay what the seller convinces you it's worth. Just trust the seller. Verifying grades is tacky, rude and unartistic.

Those people at GIA are not art lovers, so ignore THEM.
Education is for those evil liberal elites.
All that matters is you LOVE a diamond.

Next, an "artistic" vendor can sell it to a fellow art lover (who follows their heart) at a D IF price or whatever can be extracted from the ignorant.
Everyone wins.

It's all good.
Move along, folks.
Nothing to see here.

i hope your sarcasm and condescending attitude doesnt represent the way you really are in person, because you are coming across exactly like that.

flyingpig · Jan 23, 2017

Yes opinion. gemological opinion.
Scientific opinion based on their past research studies and guidelines..

doctors do give out opinions, based on medical science. doctor's opinion is based on science. It is not an art.
An opinion of a group of reputable qualified gemologists or gemology institution is based on science. It is not an art.

heididdl · Jan 23, 2017

Yekutiel|1485210612|4118719 said:
Hi Kenny
I would love to go dance with you. Whenever your in town bring your dancing shoes. I highly respect and appreciate your advice and the time you take to help everyone on the forums. with regards to the OP I have had a lengthy phone conversation with him regarding the differences. and I would never sell anything to a consumer without disclosing all the facts. I am not selling him MY certificate. I happen to have this pair AGI certified . If the OP has any questions have him reach out to AGI and ask them if they are on pair with GIA grading standards. I have told the OP That I do NOT agree that they will get the same grade as GIA certified diamonds. and therefore I can only guarantee the value of the price he would be paying. I strongly advised the OP I would recommend going with GIA certified and I will find him something spectacular if he wanted me too. and if he really insisted going with the AGI studs I offered him a 60 Day full return policy if he didn't care for them. I cannot choose for the consumer I can only advise and explain the differences. We carry everything in our shop from non certified, clarity enhanced, foreverone moissanite and Amora gems in the store. I like to cater to everyone needsand wants . and please dont forget that I have explained all this to the OP before getting any payment and even took extra photos to ensure his satisfaction. I work really hard to make everyone happy with the end results according to what they want to buy.

Yes you do I can say first hand........You make every one feel special and your work is first rate as is your customer service and pricing.

Rockdiamond · Jan 23, 2017

kenny|1485220045|4118816 said:
flyingpig|1485219481|4118807 said:

eugchen|1485217933|4118790 said:

"
Kenny, GIA gradings are opinions, no matter what you say. they ARE NOT science based answers. they are more of an art.

Click to expand...

I absolutely disagree.

Click to expand...

Oh come on, eugchen is right.
Color and clarity grades ARE an art.

One artist can call a diamond a D IF.
Another artist can call it a S I2.
It's all just opinion, you know.
But the price? That's not opinion at all. Pay what the seller convinces you it's worth. Just trust the seller. Verifying grades is tacky, rude and unartistic.

Those people at GIA are not art lovers, so ignore THEM.
Education is for those evil liberal elites.
All that matters is you LOVE a diamond.

Next, an "artistic" vendor can sell it to a fellow art lover (who follows their heart) at a D IF price or whatever can be extracted from the ignorant.
Everyone wins.

It's all good.
Move along, folks.
Nothing to see here.

Although I have nothing to add to the main topic, I think a clarification is in order given this side discussion. GIA issues Reports- they do not "certify" anything.
In my opinion, the grading of diamonds is one of the more artistic jobs in the commercial world. Knowing how to assess the different imperfections, and how they relate to the grades from Flawless-I2 requires observation of many thousands of stones. Many readers here would relish the experience.
What you'll learn in those thousands of stones are the boundaries of each grade. You would need to use GIA graded diamonds to gain the knowledge necessary to assess diamonds as close as possible to GIA standards. Because there's so many potential variations in consistency and placement of imperfections, the grades are not "written in stone" they are judgments.
GIA prefers that sellers do not use the term "GIA certified". I know this because I used to advertise using that term, and GIA asked us to stop ( about 15 years back)
IMO words do matter- so to this day I try to avoid the "C" word in discussions with clients.

eugchen · Jan 23, 2017

yes, of course all these guy are experts, so to speak...but rockdiamond is right, there are boundaries that they generally stay, and they have to observe thousands of diamonds to gain experience in their craft.

its funny you mention about doctors....im actually a physician, so i speak from experience....being a doctor is also an art, every doctor diagnosis is AN OPINION, some are highly expert opinions, some aren't. i would say our training is based on science, but the real world is not that clean cut and dry. so it then becomes an art so to speak. some cancer doctors use their "art" to tailor adequate treatments for the patient. its not an exact science many times. it is also not unusual to have a single patient with 10 different diagnosis from 10 different doctors.

of course doctors are experts, just like GIA gemologists are experts, so we defer to the best in each field.

kenny · Jan 24, 2017

eugchen|1485220391|4118821 said:
kenny|1485220045|4118816 said:

flyingpig|1485219481|4118807 said:

eugchen|1485217933|4118790 said:

"
Kenny, GIA gradings are opinions, no matter what you say. they ARE NOT science based answers. they are more of an art.

Click to expand...

I absolutely disagree.

Click to expand...

Oh come on, eugchen is right.
Color and clarity grades ARE an art.

One artist can call a diamond a D IF.
Another artist can call it a S I2.
It's all just opinion, you know.
But the price? That's not opinion at all. Pay what the seller convinces you it's worth. Just trust the seller. Verifying grades is tacky, rude and unartistic.

Those people at GIA are not art lovers, so ignore THEM.
Education is for those evil liberal elites.
All that matters is you LOVE a diamond.

Next, an "artistic" vendor can sell it to a fellow art lover (who follows their heart) at a D IF price or whatever can be extracted from the ignorant.
Everyone wins.

It's all good.
Move along, folks.
Nothing to see here.

Click to expand...

i hope your sarcasm and condescending attitude doesnt represent the way you really are in person, because you are coming across exactly like that.

This isn't a popularity contest.
I stand behind my posts, which help people get better diamonds for lower cost.
I'll refrain from posting what I think of you.

BTW, PS has an ignore function you might find useful that, unfortunately, is called Friend and Foe.

Karl_K · Jan 24, 2017

flyingpig|1485220405|4118823 said:
Yes opinion. gemological opinion.
Scientific opinion based on their past research studies and guidelines..

doctors do give out opinions, based on medical science. doctor's opinion is based on science. It is not an art.
An opinion of a group of reputable qualified gemologists or gemology institution is based on science. It is not an art.

Grading a diamond in itself is neither science nor art in my opinion.
It is comparing the stone in question against a set of guidelines/rules and giving an opinion on how it compares.
Nothing is discovered so it can not be science.
Nothing is created so it can not be art.
Setting those guidelines/rules can be science based like gia cut grades or market/tradition based like color and clarity.

The difference between the labs is the guidelines/rules they use and how consistently they are applied.

edit:
plotting inclusions is certainly an art form but that has nothing to do with the letter grade.
A case could be made that the computer generated ASET map on an AGS report is also art.

flyingpig · Jan 24, 2017

Karl_K|1485236860|4118936 said:
edit:
plotting inclusions is certainly an art form but that has nothing to do with the letter grade.
A case could be made that the computer generated ASET map on an AGS report is also art.

Thr act of drawing can be seen as an art. However, assessing inclusions, identifying inclusion types and documenting inclusion by plotting is scientific observation and documentation. I thought the inclusion plotting was the most scientific part in diamond grading. It is pure observation, identification and documentation. It is very scientific technique used in anwhere from biology to cosmology.

I am not saying diamond grading does not involve artistic components.

Note that I never call diamond grading a science. Rather, it involves scienfic observation, documentation, assessment, gemological opinions, research and studies.
It is based on science.

gm89uk · Jan 24, 2017

eugchen|1485226340|4118867 said:
yes, of course all these guy are experts, so to speak...but rockdiamond is right, there are boundaries that they generally stay, and they have to observe thousands of diamonds to gain experience in their craft.

its funny you mention about doctors....im actually a physician, so i speak from experience....being a doctor is also an art, every doctor diagnosis is AN OPINION, some are highly expert opinions, some aren't. i would say our training is based on science, but the real world is not that clean cut and dry. so it then becomes an art so to speak. some cancer doctors use their "art" to tailor adequate treatments for the patient. its not an exact science many times. it is also not unusual to have a single patient with 10 different diagnosis from 10 different doctors.

of course doctors are experts, just like GIA gemologists are experts, so we defer to the best in each field.

Increasingly being a doctor (not particularly oncology, or physicians but certainly in other specialities) is about following guidelines and protocols with little scope of justification of steering outside those guidelines. Diagnosis are based on learnt science, pattern recognition and an opinion is formed. This leads to somewhat a consistency among findings and mangement. Finding x suggests y. Finding the signs, and putting them all together is the skill and competence of a doctor.

If there are a group of people who are trained to give expert opinions within a reasonable consistency threshold (which is probably higher among GIA gemologists than among physicians) which is a standard measured in many studies; this is an science. People confuse high competence at being able to follow these guidelines as art. The the point where someone knows in their gut, this is the diagnosis, or this is the clarity grade. But that has been sculpted from years of hard work and perseverance. Art is the expression or application of creative skill or imagination. It is not required to have consistency, it is an entirely ballgame.

Bringing back some relevance, the measure of how good a gemmology lab is through consistency through learnt knowledge and guidelines to apply such knowledge. That is what has earned GIA and AGS respect (though case studies are evident where there is a lapse in consistency. Some people are principly against any vendor that considers selling any stones that reported through the consistency of these labs, something where IDJ here will never succeed in 'defending themselves'.

Ultimately I believe Yekutiel has explained his surroundings and why this must be in the case in their business environment. Sellers are fully informed of the reporting inconsistencies and differences between diamonds. The OP has been informed and as such decided not to proceed with the original diamonds. Now they are looking for GIA diamonds.

Is it inherently wrong to hold non GIA diamonds, consumers are given a choice. Yes it may play out more profitably for the seller, but that is just the way the business is. Sellers are using their resources before them to maximise profit from their product.

If they are explained to the disparities, put down huge amount of money without researching thoroughly, then they are knowingly taking that risk and they're happy anyway.

Being more conservative I know there isn't a bargain out there (and it would be rare if it is).

Rockdiamond · Jan 24, 2017

Karl_K|1485236860|4118936 said:
flyingpig|1485220405|4118823 said:

Yes opinion. gemological opinion.
Scientific opinion based on their past research studies and guidelines..

doctors do give out opinions, based on medical science. doctor's opinion is based on science. It is not an art.
An opinion of a group of reputable qualified gemologists or gemology institution is based on science. It is not an art.

Click to expand...

Grading a diamond in itself is neither science nor art in my opinion.
It is comparing the stone in question against a set of guidelines/rules and giving an opinion on how it compares.
Nothing is discovered so it can not be science.
Nothing is created so it can not be art.
Setting those guidelines/rules can be science based like gia cut grades or market/tradition based like color and clarity.

The difference between the labs is the guidelines/rules they use and how consistently they are applied.

edit:
plotting inclusions is certainly an art form but that has nothing to do with the letter grade.
A case could be made that the computer generated ASET map on an AGS report is also art.

Karl- there's no "guidebook"'of rules for what an SI1 looks like. There's simply too many variations possible to be able to chart. So I would suggest the art is creating a consistent grade for something totally inconsistent.
Interesting that grading SI's is far more difficult than grading VVS stones because there's so much more judgement involved.

Strawberry129 · Jan 24, 2017

alexkeating|1485216563|4118777 said:
Thanks for the warm greeting. I don't know Yekutiel and frankly its not personal and I would ask the same questions of any dealer offering diamonds that had no grading report or selling diamonds with non reputable lab reports.

But a dealer who isn't willing to find me suitable GIA graded alternatives for comparison over whatever in house stock they may be trying to get rid of is not going to get my business.

Yekutiel and/or his supplier has already played the lab grading game and decided they can get more for these diamonds without a GIA grading report.

So as a consumer I wouldn't want to touch these diamonds, not because they are lower quality or have any sort of appearance flaws (I have not enough information to judge that) it is because I can't ascertain their value accurately and I'm likely going to overpay.

Welcome! To be fair, IDJ told the customer that he can certainly find him GIA certified diamonds for comparison, but it will be pricier. The customer wants to save money, and hence is "okay" with having questionable specs from a less than reputable lab.

IDJ is a business and they need to make the most money. Are they overselling this AGI stone vs getting it GIA certified? Probably. Most likely. I can't fault them because at the end of the day, it's all business and money talks. They've already told the customer that he's not getting a GIA like diamond...If the customer walks away feeling "good" for getting a good deal (he's not), that's not my problem nor is it IDJ. IDJ is not being dishonest and they have informed the customer. It's up to the customer to make an informed decision whether to take it or leave as IDJ has said. I would leave it, but the next customer may not care and that's what IDJ is hoping on. I cannot fault them for this if they informed every customer of the difference between AGI and GIA. If they do not, then shame on IDJ and the next person is an uninformed sucker who deserves to get ripped off.

I'll get off my soapbox now. BTW, IDJ is a common recommended vendor around this forum and my one experience with them was a bit disappointing although lukewarm to be honest...so I'm just stating my opinion. I think many people may have only okay experiences with them, but just don't make a big deal out of it esp. with their fanfare here.

baby monster · Jan 24, 2017

eugchen|1485217933|4118790 said:
for the record, Yekutiel did explain things to me, and was as transparent as possible. i have no beef with Yekutiel. im sure all the reviews he has are 100% legitimate. the question now is whether these nongraded, or AGI appraised diamonds are worth the money vs GIA/AGS/EGL diamonds.

nothing personal to anyone on my end. this is all business. obvious PS readers are a cut above the rest and more informed and hopefully less scamed in general.

To OP. You are looking to model out the risk of buying uncerted stones without having all of the relevant inputs. The vendor is a business that has the information to price out the risk. It is unlikely that you will come out ahead because of imperfect information on your side. This forum won't be able to grade AGI appraised stones for you.

ac117 · Jan 25, 2017

eugchen · Jan 25, 2017

thanks so much for your help!

the one thing im not sure about is what color can i go down to on 4 ctw earrings (2 on each ear) and still look good? assuming we are dealing with eye clean, and excellent cut, HCA of under 2, i wonder at what range we reach yellowing?

not sure if i need to reach for G/H or is I/J?

ac117 · Jan 25, 2017

eugchen|1485368963|4119673 said:
thanks so much for your help!

the one thing im not sure about is what color can i go down to on 4 ctw earrings (2 on each ear) and still look good? assuming we are dealing with eye clean, and excellent cut, HCA of under 2, i wonder at what range we reach yellowing?

not sure if i need to reach for G/H or is I/J?

Happy to help...but you need to be realistic and understand that something will have to give if you want to stay in budget. Cut is something you should never compromise on because that is what makes a diamond sparkle and shine. What is the 'must' in your search? Must you stay under $25k? Must you hit 4ctw? Must you have higher color?

I based my search on the first two 'musts' I listed that I gathered from reading this thread. If you must have higher color, then you'll have to sacrifice on budget or size! These are just a hair smaller but might make a good pair:
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.93-carat-i-color-si2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2416834
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.90-carat-j-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-1998241

eugchen · Jan 25, 2017

yes, thanks...sacrifices will need to be made for sure. my budget is now 25-30K, 4 ctw is not a must, 3.8 is fine. excellent cut and as close to 2.0 on HCA are a must. color and clarity are what may be sacrificed. im looking at H-I, and SI1-SI2 to try and locate what i want.

ac117 · Jan 25, 2017

eugchen|1485374553|4119735 said:
yes, thanks...sacrifices will need to be made for sure. my budget is now 25-30K, 4 ctw is not a must, 3.8 is fine. excellent cut and as close to 2.0 on HCA are a must. color and clarity are what may be sacrificed. im looking at H-I, and SI1-SI2 to try and locate what i want.

The first 2 or first and third would be nice:
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.92-carat-i-color-si1-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-1829113
http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD08115157
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.93-carat-i-color-si2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2416834

Or these:
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/2.10-carat-i-color-si2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-2043549
https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R201-39Z25Z626??

ID Jewelry in NYC, while im in LA

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