HRD introduces new cut grading system for rounds 1/1/09

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 1/25/2009 5:36:08 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
HI Garry- If you''d like to call me David, that would be fine

Interesting- I have not found the same thing here in NY - but the market is likely different in Australia.

Having known a bunch of really high and mighty cutters who are now out of the business, I have a certain ....sympathy( not really the best word) for them- but I have seen first hand how difficult it is to successfully engage in the buying and polishing of rough diamonds.
The larger companies that have found ways to stay alive in this tough market are definitely in a tough spot.
Still, I have not found a degradation of cutting from those houses specializing in fine makes.

I will call you RD while you continue to behave like a Real Dinosaur.

You comment that there is not a problem with cutters pushing the commercial boundaries of GIA cut grade at the expense of consumers RD.
Yet it is clear from your susbsequent posts that in the several years of your banning that you have not bothered to learn anything - so how can your opinion on what is on offer in NY be of much value?

I have no real interst in answering your comments anymore RD.

 

[denverappraiser]

Garry,

You’re being rude. It’s unbecoming for the forum. David is minding his manners and you should mind yours.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Rockdiamond]

Thank you Neil- It is my goal to engage in enlightening conversation- and to respect all who are here participating.
On that note, I''d like to apologize to DiaGem.
If you would like to respond to a point I raised, I''d appreciate it, but it was wrong of me to expect it.
Also, if I raised the point in a rude manner, I apologize.
I still feel HRD should not be placed on the same Tier as GIA, or AGSL....but we all have a right to our opinion.

Date: 1/28/2009 12:16:32 AM
Author: Serg

Date: 1/27/2009 6:02:37 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Yes Allison- I should point out that I don''t love the look of ''Hearts and Arrows'' in a diamond- so the lack of such patterns does not put me off at all.
In addition, I have a different feeling about ''light Leakage'' in general.
Sure, if a diamond has large dark areas, it can really hurt the look of the diamond.
But if a few of the star or pavilion facets look slightly dark it can actually add sparkle to a stone.
JMHO

David,

Did you check my link?

Could black ring under table add sparkle to the stone?

I did check the link Serg- sorry to not have responded earlier.
Yes, I can see a darker area under the table.
I think we can all agree that no grading system is perfect. In the case of the GIA system, there''s a real range of different looks encompassed by the ''EX" cut grade.
Because of my training- or simply because it feels right to me, a 60 % table seems perfect.
An "Ideal" cut is also beautiful, but to me, the table looks to small.
A really well cut 60/60 may not have distinct Hearts and Arrows Pattern.
Again, personal taste, but I don''t feel that having that pattern makes a stone "better".
Can it be beautiful with H&A? Absolutely! But my point is it can also look amazing without the pattern.

Anyway, the stone in your example- .72ct ct with 55% table, and 62.9% depth ( using GIA''s numbers) is clearly at the outer edge of EX cut grade.
But it might appeal to someone who likes the look of a small table ( Ideal)
Would I call it EX cut grade? Not if it were up to me.
How does the stone look in person? For me it''s hard to tell with IS photos- but I doubt it''s "butt ugly"
But it is a good example.

I have seen many round diamonds graded EX cut grade over the past 2 years- and personally, I did not see one I would call "badly cut"\
but we don;t specialize in rounds, so I made a few calls this morning.
One to a high volume dealer selling a lot of RBC''s, and another to one of the best cutters I know.

The other dealer said that he has seen a couple of EX cut grade stones that he did not like- but VERY few. By and large, the GIA "EX" cut grade stones he''s seen have been quite nice.
Of course I''m speaking in subjective terms- but the dealer I spoke to is a "maven" on cut.

Then I spoke to one of the best cutters in NYC IMO (btw- he''s the guy who cut my avatar Asscher).

He says that it is possible to make more money if you can cut for the GIA "EX" cut grade- that seems obvious.
But he does not feel that cutters are purposefully trying to cut bad stones that meet the cut grade. For sure, he does not. From his perspective no matter what the cut grade says, dealers that buy his stones actually look at the stones- so the visual aspect of the diamond is always going to be super important.
Today, there are machines to analyze rough- that are pretty much calibrated to achieve the proportions that will yield the "EX" grade. This actually makes it easier to get the GIA EX grade.
This cutter does not deal with smaller stones- which also might be important in this conversation- he does cut some carat sized diamonds, but the bulk are much larger, and higher dollar stones.



Garry- I truly hope that we can have a dialog. My opinions about diamonds are surely different from yours- but I have a lot of respect for the work you do, and your commitment to well cut diamonds.
Isn''t there room for a different point of view?

 

[John P]

Date: 1/27/2009 6:02:37 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Yes Allison- I should point out that I don''t love the look of ''Hearts and Arrows'' in a diamond- so the lack of such patterns does not put me off at all.
In addition, I have a different feeling about ''light Leakage'' in general.
Sure, if a diamond has large dark areas, it can really hurt the look of the diamond.
But if a few of the star or pavilion facets look slightly dark it can actually add sparkle to a stone.
JMHO

David,

Definitely. You''re referring to a very important element we usually call contrast (GIA calls it pattern). However, contrast should not be confused with leakage.

It is hard to tell the difference in a normal photo but in the AGS ASET or Ideal-Scope the diamond is backlit for the very purpose of differentiating these areas. As I''m sure you know, red (and green in ASET) show areas where light is entering the diamond and returning properly to the eye. What a lot of people don''t realize intuitively is that black (blue in ASET) indicates areas of contrast; those facets are dark in the static position but they act as proper mirrors and once the diamond is tilted they erupt in light as other areas go dark. A proper balance and distribution of contrast is desirable. On the other hand white in the ASET or ideal-scope is negative...it''s where the facets are acting as windows so you are seeing the backlight through the stone. You see these as dark areas in real life and they remain dark even when the diamond is tilted, muting scintillation and deadening its performance qualities.

If we were viewing those examples in real-life and actual size, next to any top-performer (60/60 or near-Tolk) you would see the difference immediately.

Date: 1/28/2009 12:39:25 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

I did check the link Serg- sorry to not have responded earlier.
Yes, I can see a darker area under the table.
I think we can all agree that no grading system is perfect. In the case of the GIA system, there''s a real range of different looks encompassed by the ''EX'' cut grade.
Because of my training- or simply because it feels right to me, a 60 % table seems perfect.
An ''Ideal'' cut is also beautiful, but to me, the table looks to small.
A really well cut 60/60 may not have distinct Hearts and Arrows Pattern.
Again, personal taste, but I don''t feel that having that pattern makes a stone ''better''.
Can it be beautiful with H&A? Absolutely! But my point is it can also look amazing without the pattern.

Anyway, the stone in your example- .72ct ct with 55% table, and 62.9% depth ( using GIA''s numbers) is clearly at the outer edge of EX cut grade.
But it might appeal to someone who likes the look of a small table ( Ideal)
Would I call it EX cut grade? Not if it were up to me.
How does the stone look in person? For me it''s hard to tell with IS photos- but I doubt it''s ''butt ugly''
But it is a good example.

A point of order if you don''t mind. There is widespread abuse of the word "ideal" (don''t get me started). We often use the term "Tolkowsky" or "Near-Tolk" to indicate the diamonds I believe you''re using that term for (small tables with angles close to 40.7/34.5). It''s better to separate classifications of make from grading terms for the benefit of consumer readers, especially new ones...and more correct since the AGS grade of that name encompasses a wider range of looks since 2005. So, instead of "ideal" another descriptor would be helpful. Just my 2 cents.

By the way, there is no way I would ever call the example I put forward on the last page ideal or even near-Tolk, since it is far away from both. When the PA/CA combination gets that high it''s a "steep/deep" pure and simple.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 1/28/2009 8:41:31 AM
Author: denverappraiser
Garry,

You’re being rude. It’s unbecoming for the forum. David is minding his manners and you should mind yours.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

It is true Neil, I am being rude.
I had hoped to see any in RD''s knowledge and behaviour since he was banned around 4 years ago.
I have not. how he runs his business is his business.
But how he photographs diamonds and the information he offers regarding diamond cut quality are special interests of mine.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Thanks for the explaination John-I do agree that the terminology of "Ideal" is a poor one.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 1/28/2009 2:27:46 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 1/28/2009 8:41:31 AM
Author: denverappraiser
Garry,

You’re being rude. It’s unbecoming for the forum. David is minding his manners and you should mind yours.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

It is true Neil, I am being rude.
I had hoped to see any in RD''s knowledge and behaviour since he was banned around 4 years ago.
I have not. how he runs his business is his business.
But how he photographs diamonds and the information he offers regarding diamond cut quality are special interests of mine.

Hi Garry,
I use natural methods of lighting, hold the camera in one hand, and the diamond or ring, in the other.
Lighting used includes natural sunlight, indoor ambient, and fluorescent.
I also have a few high intensity lights I use occasionally.

In terms of what I believe about cut- or how I see a diamond, no it has not really changes all that much in 4 years- but GIA''s cut grade has changed the way many people look at cut in that time.

The information about cut I offer on our site, and here- is borne of long experience looking at, and grading diamonds.
Maybe one change in me is that I have come to realize that it''s far better to at least allow for the possibility that the tools you like to use have value to some.

I am familiar with the IdealScope- and to some extent the HCA. Personally, I use and prefer other methodology...but as I mentioned, I can also see that some people find value in these things- therefore I see it as a difference of methodology- as opposed to one being "right" and the other "wrong"

I apologize if I was rude to you Garry- either years ago, or now.
It is genuinely my desire to learn from past mistakes in behavior.
IN terms of our differing views- I hope you will forgive and forget, allowing a new, kinder dialog between us.

 

[strmrdr]

David,
You will be happy to know that the HCA, Ideal-scope, ASET and even AGS ideal can be used as filters to finding well cut 60/60s with top light performance.
It isn''t talked about much here but it is there.
The tools we use are not biased against them but can work well with them.

Hca score 1.7 predicted AGS score 0.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Thank you Karl- It''s great to see that any objective tool would include 60/60 in the top cut grade.

Personally I would prefer to see photos of an actual diamond, but clealry a 60/60 can be amazing when it''s well proprtioned with the proper girdle.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 1/29/2009 3:54:37 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Thank you Karl- It''s great to see that any objective tool would include 60/60 in the top cut grade.


Personally I would prefer to see photos of an actual diamond, but clealry a 60/60 can be amazing when it''s well proprtioned with the proper girdle.

The cutters of 60/60s in general don''t send them to AGS so actual pictures are hard to find.
Not because they wont get the grade but because it is a different market.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Great point Karl. In fact, I see very few AGSL reports.
Of course I''m looking at Fancy Shapes and colors primarily.

Just as I have worked to find the cutters I work most closely with, to specialize in Fancy Shapes/Colors, dealers carrying AGS0 goods need to go to specific cutters- you are 100% correct.
Blue Nile has a large impact on the market as well ( at least here in NY)- they will use GIA stones. If Blue Nile would accept only AGS, you''d see a lot more AGS stones overall. I know of several huge cutters that send everything to GIA for this reason.
But I am very glad GIA adopted the standards they do for rounds.
Not because I want a "Steep/ Deep"- as I have seen already here on PS, there are examples of EX cut grades like that.

Although there are a few cracks in the system, the grade is far more encompassing compared to AGS- especially if you go back a few years.
GIA''s inclusion of 60/60 certainly puts a different spin on things.
Years ago, when AGS had the only cut grade, I had less of a leg to stand on if one was going to use Gem Labs as a barometer.


The bottom line is that I do look at the cut of round diamonds differently than many of the most respected people here.
Uphill battle, but I just want to be able to represent the other side keeping true to my values, and never insulting anyone.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

AGS''s grade system includes a far greater range than GIA''s.
For example AGS Ideal can allow table sizes as large as 62% with depth percentages of around 58%

 

[Rockdiamond]

Thanks Garry!

Is there a chart somewhere showing the ranges of both GIA''s as well as AGS''s parameters?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 1/30/2009 3:02:01 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Thanks Garry!


Is there a chart somewhere showing the ranges of both GIA''s as well as AGS''s parameters?

Serg has the best one but I cant find the link.
Charts do a poor job of displaying the AGS system which is a huge debate around here.
Maybe Garry or Serg can provide a link.

 

[Serg]

Date: 1/30/2009 3:02:01 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Thanks Garry!

Is there a chart somewhere showing the ranges of both GIA''s as well as AGS''s parameters?

http://octonus.com/oct/mss/gia-agspgs.phtml

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI all!
Diagem, I think I see why we have such a different outlook on this.
As a cutter, the relationship with gem labs is totally different that that of someone dealing in polished.

Have you have found that dealers will pay you the same price for a stone of any given graded issued by HRD- as compared to one graded by GIA?

Again, I am only asking because I want to learn.

My personal experience was limited to maybe 100 stones with HRD reports- not a large sample by any means.
But a large percentage of the ones I looked at were misgraded IMO- and every time a cutter or broker offers them to us, they were discounting them deeply below GIA graded stones.
If you''re finding price parity in the market where you are, I''d be interested to know.

Peace

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

David,

With an experience of looking at only 100 stones graded by HRD, it is below par to state such absolute derogatory statements like you have.

Let me try to put your experience into perspective.

If I would base my feelings on GIA on the stones that are offered for sale on the Antwerp market, I would say that GIA is an absolute joke in grading. Why? The GIA-graded stones that remain on the Antwerp market are generally the ones with a lucky grade. It is only natural for a cutter to not send such stones to his regular American clients. That is why these end up on the secondary Antwerp market.

With HRD-reports, the following has been going on for years. HRD is slightly stricter than GIA in colour, especially in the popular HIJ-range, whereas they are slightly more lenient in clarity-grading. For years, New York wholesalers have bought a lot of HRD-graded stones in Antwerp to have them re-graded by GIA. If they got a better colour, that was the big profit. If the result came back the same, that was good because a GIA-graded stone is easier to sell. And if the clarity came back worse from GIA, they would keep the HRD-report and try to shift it.

I guess that the stones you saw were of the third category. And my story explains why there are hardly HRD-graded stones for sale in the US, while so many are being bought by New York wholesalers.

Live long,

 

[Rockdiamond]

Thanks for that insightful post Paul!
A lot of what you say makes sense.
For sure cutters like more lenient grading, while dealers prefer tougher grades.
One point I would ask about is why you feel sellers who have "lucky" GIA reports would not sell them in the US. Even a "lucky" GIA graded stone is going for higher price in NYC as compared to an HRD of the same or even higher grade.

But even if we put that aside, your post would still seem to indicate that for US buyers, or international buyers purchasing from US based sellers, that HRD is indeed not as reliable as GIA.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

A lot of lucky reports end up in australia because there are numerous country town watchmakers who would not know the difference

 

[Iiro]

Sounds like they are lucky to get a cert at all. The same apply to Finland. But, is this not the certs are all about? Equity, on at least some standards?