HRD introduces new cut grading system for rounds 1/1/09

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 1/24/2009 4:18:36 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

My experience is that cutters who are using GIA or AGSL are generally trying to make the prettiest, and best cut diamond they can, which is ultimately the way to make that few bucks extra.

RD I know plenty of cutters that have the ability to cut with a high degree of precision who I was able to buy diamonds from prior to GIA''s cut grade system.
I can still buy princess and other cuts from them, but I can not buy rounds any more because everything is cut too steep deep.

They are cutting for grade and yeild.

 

[denverappraiser]

Grading labs have become large and highly competitive businesses where it’s necessary to both convince manufacturers to submit stones for grading and to convince the consuming public that they can rely on that grading in making a purchase decision. If they push it too far towards either direction the whole system collapses either because they have no clients at all or because their work product and their brand gets discounted so far in the marketplace through consumer preference that clients decide to have their work done elsewhere. Either way the clients, and their money, evaporate. This is a terribly delicate balancing act of pleasing both the manufacturers and the consuming public. This is why the grading labs are among the biggest advertisers in the industry, including direct consumer advertising. Lowering the bar for cutters while increasing demand, or at least acceptance, from consumers just makes sense as a marketing strategy.

Consumer demand has changed dramatically in the last decade, in no small part through the pressure of Pricescope. A significant number of people want a lab assigned cut grade and, if they don’t get it, they buy a different stone where they do. They’ve been trained to ask for it in the stores and on the websites as part of the shopping process but here’s the problem.

A majority of people can’t tell the difference. Even the dealers.

Therein is the rub. For a cutter, there’s almost always a tradeoff between what we here would call quality of cut and finished weight. Consumers are willing to pay a premium for either one and the cutter simply can’t get both out of a particular piece of rough. They must choose the balance and bet their paycheck on the results. Finished weight is not an easily negotiated topic with the consumer, it is what it is, but cutting is different. Since the definition of good cutting has become compliance with the lab standards, and since there is NO consistency between labs about what these standards are, it benefits the cutters to pressure the labs to make these standards as broad and inclusive as possible and then to target their production towards the heaviest possible stone that will be eligible for the top grade. Since they can’t tell the difference, almost no one is prepared to shop and pay extra based on the difference between the best and the worst of that top grade. The cut premium applies equally to the entire range so, in effect, the stone with the ''worst'' cut but with the heaviest weight will bring the highest price. Who''s surprised that this is what the cutters produce and that they would pressure the labs to include stones that are heavier and/or easier to produce into the top categories?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 1/25/2009 8:06:26 AM
Author: denverappraiser
Who''s surprised that this is what the cutters produce and that they would pressure the labs to include stones that are heavier and/or easier to produce into the top categories?

I''m not surprised but when the labs give in the consumers on PS are going to hear about it so they can make an informed decision.
If that makes my name a swear word at the labs I can live with that :}

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 1/25/2009 2:45:39 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 1/24/2009 4:18:36 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

My experience is that cutters who are using GIA or AGSL are generally trying to make the prettiest, and best cut diamond they can, which is ultimately the way to make that few bucks extra.

RD I know plenty of cutters that have the ability to cut with a high degree of precision who I was able to buy diamonds from prior to GIA''s cut grade system.
I can still buy princess and other cuts from them, but I can not buy rounds any more because everything is cut too steep deep.

They are cutting for grade and yeild.

HI Garry!
Are you saying that you know cutters that downgraded their cutting once GIA stated issuing cut grades?
Do the "Steep Deep" stones your referring to achieve GIA''s EX cut grade?

 

[diagem]

Date: 1/25/2009 2:35:42 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 1/25/2009 2:45:39 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 1/24/2009 4:18:36 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

My experience is that cutters who are using GIA or AGSL are generally trying to make the prettiest, and best cut diamond they can, which is ultimately the way to make that few bucks extra.

RD I know plenty of cutters that have the ability to cut with a high degree of precision who I was able to buy diamonds from prior to GIA's cut grade system.
I can still buy princess and other cuts from them, but I can not buy rounds any more because everything is cut too steep deep.

They are cutting for grade and yeild.

HI Garry!
Are you saying that you know cutters that downgraded their cutting once GIA stated issuing cut grades?
Do the 'Steep Deep' stones your referring to achieve GIA's EX cut grade?

Cutters are pushing the limits...,

Either in rounds at the GIA...
Or in Princess cuts at the AGS...

Or both at the HRD??

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 1/25/2009 2:56:50 PM

Or both at the HRD??

Diagem,

Does HRD issue a cut grade on princess cuts?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Rockdiamond]

Gentlemen- EVERY successful diamond cutter needs to capitalize on any given opportunity to be profitable.
Princess Cuts in general retain far more weight from the rough, as compared to a round.
Does that mean everyone cutting a princess is "pushing the limits"?
It''s an extremely tough business- not a lot of room for error.
So- if a cutter gains 5% weight, yet can''t sell the stone- or needs to discount it by 10% to move it, they won''t be in business very long.

The result of all this is that cutters producing the nicest diamonds are getting the best results- especially if they intend to sell to more educated consumers.
By and large, it is my opinion that cutters going for AGS0 or GIA EX are genuinly interested in producing the best product they can- and that stones that meet the AGS or GIA cut standard are going to be "well cut"

 

[diagem]

Date: 1/25/2009 3:07:48 PM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 1/25/2009 2:56:50 PM

Or both at the HRD??

Diagem,

Does HRD issue a cut grade on princess cuts?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Not yet..., but I am ahead of the game....

 

[diagem]

Date: 1/25/2009 3:17:45 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Gentlemen- EVERY successful diamond cutter needs to capitalize on any given opportunity to be profitable.
Princess Cuts in general retain far more weight from the rough, as compared to a round. Thats where the price difference exist!
Does that mean everyone cutting a princess is ''pushing the limits''? I believe so..., if they are aiming for the "0" grade.
It''s an extremely tough business- not a lot of room for error.
So- if a cutter gains 5% weight, yet can''t sell the stone- or needs to discount it by 10% to move it, they won''t be in business very long.

What would you say if a cutter hypothetically gains 5% yield and his product gets fetched at a 10% premium...?

The result of all this is that cutters producing the nicest diamonds are getting the best results- especially if they intend to sell to more educated consumers.
By and large, it is my opinion that cutters going for AGS0 or GIA EX are genuinly interested in producing the best product they can- and that stones that meet the AGS or GIA cut standard are going to be ''well cut'' Well cut yes..., but the best cut? I guess that depends who you ask here on PS?

 

[Rockdiamond]

It seems to me that this is subjective.
The term "best cut" has no place in this conversation.

Is a 57% table "better" than a 60%?
It might be easy for a consumer to get that idea- but in reality a diamond is bought for reasons of beauty- which we all know, is in the eye of the beholder.
It still does not change the fact that the HRD scale is overly broad.
GIA and AGS really have it down pretty well.
Not perfect- but again- we''re trying to assess numerical value to subjective aspects of a diamond.

 

[diagem]

Date: 1/25/2009 3:34:23 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
It seems to me that this is subjective.
The term ''best cut'' has no place in this conversation. Depends who you are talking about...

Is a 57% table ''better'' than a 60%? If you ask my (personal) opinion? YES in every shape or size...
It might be easy for a consumer to get that idea- but in reality a diamond is bought for reasons of beauty- which we all know, is in the eye of the beholder.
Then whats the big who-wha on the cut issue? Get a beautiful Diamond based on your eyesight pleasure (just like they did 30+ years ago...
It still does not change the fact that the HRD scale is overly broad. Which scale is that?
GIA and AGS really have it down pretty well.

Not perfect- but again- we''re trying to assess numerical value to subjective aspects of a diamond.

 

[Rockdiamond]

No, it''s not at all like it was 30 years ago.
Today many shoppers are armed with a lot more information.
There are obviously a lot people who look at Sarin reports, and other high tech measuring devices to assist in the selection.
But the bottom line is that when and if a purchase is made, the way the diamond looks is going to have a huge impact on the decision as to whether or not to keep it.

 

[diagem]

Date: 1/25/2009 3:52:46 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
No, it''s not at all like it was 30 years ago.
Today many shoppers are armed with a lot more information.
There are obviously a lot people who look at Sarin reports, and other high tech measuring devices to assist in the selection.
But the bottom line is that when and if a purchase is made, the way the diamond looks is going to have a huge impact on the decision as to whether or not to keep it.

So..., is a 57% table ''better'' than a 60%?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 1/25/2009 4:22:07 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 1/25/2009 3:52:46 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
No, it''s not at all like it was 30 years ago.
Today many shoppers are armed with a lot more information.
There are obviously a lot people who look at Sarin reports, and other high tech measuring devices to assist in the selection.
But the bottom line is that when and if a purchase is made, the way the diamond looks is going to have a huge impact on the decision as to whether or not to keep it.

So..., is a 57% table ''better'' than a 60%?

Not in my opinion...but again- that''s personal choice

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 1/25/2009 2:56:50 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 1/25/2009 2:35:42 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 1/25/2009 2:45:39 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 1/24/2009 4:18:36 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

My experience is that cutters who are using GIA or AGSL are generally trying to make the prettiest, and best cut diamond they can, which is ultimately the way to make that few bucks extra.

RD I know plenty of cutters that have the ability to cut with a high degree of precision who I was able to buy diamonds from prior to GIA''s cut grade system.
I can still buy princess and other cuts from them, but I can not buy rounds any more because everything is cut too steep deep.

They are cutting for grade and yeild.

HI Garry!
Are you saying that you know cutters that downgraded their cutting once GIA stated issuing cut grades?
Do the ''Steep Deep'' stones your referring to achieve GIA''s EX cut grade?

Cutters are pushing the limits...,

Either in rounds at the GIA...
Or in Princess cuts at the AGS...

Or both at the HRD??

Yes RD - but only for rounds, and my experiance is only with GIA and since HRD is wider and easier to make dull looking stones with higher weight retention I do not see these schemes in any way being in consumers interest.

And for the record GIA users the term "Consumer confidence" 92 times on their website
http://www.google.com.au/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLL_en&q=%22consumer+confidence%22+site:www.gia.edu

Who can blame a cutter for making the most for share holders and families if dumb or biased org''s establish dumb or biased rules?

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI Garry- If you''d like to call me David, that would be fine

Interesting- I have not found the same thing here in NY - but the market is likely different in Australia.

Having known a bunch of really high and mighty cutters who are now out of the business, I have a certain ....sympathy( not really the best word) for them- but I have seen first hand how difficult it is to successfully engage in the buying and polishing of rough diamonds.
The larger companies that have found ways to stay alive in this tough market are definitely in a tough spot.
Still, I have not found a degradation of cutting from those houses specializing in fine makes.

 

[diagem]

Date: 1/25/2009 5:36:08 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
HI Garry- If you''d like to call me David, that would be fine

Interesting- I have not found the same thing here in NY - but the market is likely different in Australia.

Having known a bunch of really high and mighty cutters who are now out of the business, I have a certain ....sympathy( not really the best word) for them- but I have seen first hand how difficult it is to successfully engage in the buying and polishing of rough diamonds.
The larger companies that have found ways to stay alive in this tough market are definitely in a tough spot.
Still, I have not found a degradation of cutting from those houses specializing in fine makes.

Its a global instinctive issue...
The majority of cutters..., in Aus. or NY or Antwerp or T"A will cut to the limit if the rough provides...

There is a "small" minority (usually free of economic influence because of various reasons) of cutters that stick to their principles! But their principles dont mean they are aimed at top cuts for max performance!

 

[strmrdr]

Garry is not the only person I have heard that from it is for sure happening in the US market suppliers also, in some cases cutters have made the decision to move to the gia steep/deep end of EX.

 

[diagem]

Date: 1/25/2009 9:01:09 PM
Author: strmrdr
Garry is not the only person I have heard that from it is for sure happening in the US market suppliers also, in some cases cutters have made the decision to move to the gia steep/deep end of EX.

Realistically..., how bad are steep/deeps IRL?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 1/26/2009 7:14:56 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 1/25/2009 9:01:09 PM

Author: strmrdr

Garry is not the only person I have heard that from it is for sure happening in the US market suppliers also, in some cases cutters have made the decision to move to the gia steep/deep end of EX.

Realistically..., how bad are steep/deeps IRL?

depends on the lighting.
In store lighting usually very little unless you know what to look for.
In diffused lighting the difference is more apparent and more people would notice.
As indoor lighting gets softer and more diffused the difference is more important.

 

[denverappraiser]

Incentives matter. Based on easily observable market data, steep/deep is clearly ‘better’ than what Garry is promoting. What’s better about it? The cutter gets better yield from the rough and customers are willing to pay more for the end product because it’s heavier. For most customers this more than offsets the premium that goes with doing well on the HCA or for looking good in IS images and they’re happy to accept a lab’s statement of excellence or idealness. Obviously there’s a market for both approaches but if Garry is observing that some of his cutters are moving away from cutting stones to his preferences towards the preferences of others, there’s sure to be a reason and it’s not because they can’t tell the difference or don’t know any better. I have a theory.

It’s about the money.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[diagem]

The question remains...., is it bad? Or its just another appearance (option)?
Could it still be an amazing looking lively top performing appearance?

The reason I am asking is..., I have been trying to see a lot of rounds and Princess cuts (something I dont do on a regular basis) for the purpose of noticing differentiation..., most of them are graded under the 3X grade (vg''s and g''s)..., IRL they look amazing... (even when comparing with excellent)
Maybe the results some of the tools (ASET-HCA-IS) show are not so dramatic IRL.

Just like in the Princess cuts..., I see plenty of "not-graded for cut" stones that appear amazing to my eyes...?
Could the results of these tools be an over reaction of what we see IRL?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Diagem- it appears we agree.
Neil, or Garry- could you show us an example of what you''re talking about?
A stone thats steep/deep yet got EX cut grade or AGS0.

I''d love to see some evidence of what we''re talking about here.....

 

[John P]

Date: 1/26/2009 9:34:15 AM
Author: Rockdiamond
Diagem- it appears we agree.
Neil, or Garry- could you show us an example of what you're talking about?
A stone thats steep/deep yet got EX cut grade or AGS0.

I'd love to see some evidence of what we're talking about here.....

Here are photos from one case study. This is a 57/41.4/35, GIA EX. Under bright lighting they hold up but once you're in normal circumstances the pavilion facets act as windows rather than mirrors so you can see through the stone (look in photo 6 where you can see the flesh of the fingers). The table reflection at this depth adds darkness in diffused lighting. So while bright lighting masks the issues the consequences show themselves in diffused and soft lighting. This is a fair example; not the worst-case scenario.

Article here:
http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/37/1/GIA-Excellent-Cut-Grade-Case-Study.aspx

 

[Serg]

Date: 1/26/2009 9:34:15 AM
Author: Rockdiamond
Diagem- it appears we agree.
Neil, or Garry- could you show us an example of what you''re talking about?
A stone thats steep/deep yet got EX cut grade or AGS0.

I''d love to see some evidence of what we''re talking about here.....

See second MSS diamond P41.75Cr34.5T55 GIA Ex
Other MSS diamonds

 

[John P]

Date: 1/26/2009 9:34:15 AM
Author: Rockdiamond
Diagem- it appears we agree.
Neil, or Garry- could you show us an example of what you're talking about?
A stone thats steep/deep yet got EX cut grade or AGS0.

I'd love to see some evidence of what we're talking about here.....

GIA EX: http://www.gia.edu/reportcheck/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.showReportVerification&reportno=16189212&weight=1.33

Here is an example of the problem inherent with any two-dimensional system: At 57/41/35 the numbers don't seem so bad but when you look at the IS and ASET generated by a scan of the actual diamond you see there is a big swing from 'average' in the actual cutting (remember the given crown & pavilion angles are averages of 8 separate measurements - same with stars - and lower halves are an avg of 16 measurements).

The deviations are wide enough to create leakage zones which would not be present if the diamond was cut with better precision. There is no way to know if such swings exist from the averages appearing on the report.

 

[Rockdiamond]

All due respect guys- but I can not see deficienceis in that diamond based on the photos.

Plus- the whole "ideal" cut model looks deep to many people who grade diamonds.

In my book, any round diamond of 62% is too deep- but I understand that the depth is part of the "ideal" look.

 

[Allison D.]

Date: 1/26/2009 2:17:17 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
All due respect guys- but I can not see deficienceis in that diamond based on the photos.

Really?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Yes Allison- I should point out that I don''t love the look of "Hearts and Arrows" in a diamond- so the lack of such patterns does not put me off at all.
In addition, I have a different feeling about "light Leakage" in general.
Sure, if a diamond has large dark areas, it can really hurt the look of the diamond.
But if a few of the star or pavilion facets look slightly dark it can actually add sparkle to a stone.
JMHO

 

[Serg]

Date: 1/27/2009 6:02:37 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Yes Allison- I should point out that I don''t love the look of ''Hearts and Arrows'' in a diamond- so the lack of such patterns does not put me off at all.
In addition, I have a different feeling about ''light Leakage'' in general.
Sure, if a diamond has large dark areas, it can really hurt the look of the diamond.
But if a few of the star or pavilion facets look slightly dark it can actually add sparkle to a stone.
JMHO

David,

Did you check my link?

Could black ring under table add sparkle to the stone?