Allison D.
Ideal_Rock
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OMG - I feel faint.
*handshake going to Storm*
HRD introduces new cut grading system for rounds 1/1/09
- Thread starter denverappraiser
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*handshake going to Storm*
Lord Summerisle
Brilliant_Rock
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i dont know about the US, but to some extent i have seen HRD graded stone at serval vendors in the UK. for example cooldiamonds.com they sell a mix of GIA and HRD stones, but make little referance to cut quality other than their own ''Proportions/Symmetry'' grade of ''Good'' and ''Premium''
And while i dont have direct experiance, a few friends reported that when they went to Dubia alot of the stones they saw where HRD graded. And of course with the laws there, diamonds are sold sight unseen in little sealed bags with their grading certificates. The only time the bag is opened is after the diamond has been bought, and the buyer watches as the bag is opened and given to the jeweller to set it.
As mentioned by Paul on a thread i was asking about a stone a friend was buying in the UAE that because of this system, stones with good cert grades, but poor looks go to the UAE, while those with the better proportions, but lower grades go elsewhere were less emphasis is placed on the specs, but more on how it looks in the shop window - like the UK highstreet jewellers.
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I am not asking to be pleased..., but I do ask for thoughts before action (in this case writing)!
HRD is made of people (just like me and you)..., they wake up each morning and do their jobs...
I am realy open to discussions..., and enjoy reading and participating in the various arguments here on PS..., lets try to keep our dialogue at the level PS deserves.
strmrdr
Super_Ideal_Rock
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There is the disconnect.
I am sure there are some fine people working there.
There is most likely some people working at hrd who are as disgusted as I am with the new cut grade system.
But any company that knowingly calls crap excellent and appears to be ran by the marketing department is not worthy of respect.
When marketing trumps everything the company is not worthy of respect.
That is not saying that there are no fine people working there.
Re: Again..., HRD''s top tier..., it doesnt make it misleading..., it just reflects their professional opinion...,
Diagem,
HRD cut grade system does not show JUST “reflects their professional opinion”. It shows also lack in modern cut grade knowledge , overestimation their knowledge, snobbery
I am agree with you , we can not say what HRD cheats consumer or we should say same about ASG too( remember AGS cut grading system for Oval, Emerald or New Gold AGS parametrical system)
I think It is not cheating But is not Highest standards too ( how Labs try show it)
All these( Conductive cut grading systems from top Labs) reduce consumer confidence, create more problem than they try solve. Seems what main Labs motivation to create cut grading system is just to increasing market share .Labs play with Information, Labels to achieve it most shorts way .
Labs should have bigger responsibility for Quality "Science research" had been used for building new an new Cut Grading "Standards". It should not be allow to give JUST "professional opinion " and Then try represent it like "Standard" or Great Science result or World''s Foremost Authority ,...
strmrdr
Super_Ideal_Rock
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When the definition of cheat = deception is used it does fit very well.
The grading system is deceptive that it may lead a consumer to believe a badly cut diamond is excellent and creates confusion in the market place.
That was Alj''s point and I agree 100% with it.
What many labs have done is instead of clarifying misused terms such as excellent they have made the problem worse for marketing to the trade reasons.
Even AGS has done this with ideal and the gold system.
The grading system is deceptive that it may lead a consumer to believe a badly cut diamond is excellent and creates confusion in the market place.
That was Alj''s point and I agree 100% with it.
What many labs have done is instead of clarifying misused terms such as excellent they have made the problem worse for marketing to the trade reasons.
Even AGS has done this with ideal and the gold system.
Allison D.
Ideal_Rock
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Storm got it precisely right. In the manner in which I used it, cheat means to elude or deprive of something expected.
Put another way: Johnny tells me he is an "A student", and he does so to convey the idea that he is an exceptional student. He also likely knows that the phrase "A student" suggests one who has been able to attain a cumulative score of 94-100 because that is the typical performance required to earn an A grade at most respected and venerable learning institutions.
However, Johnny went to XYZ school, and in his school, all students who cumulative score above 50 earn an A. Unless I know that his school''s definition of A is much wider than the NORM, I may be misled into thinking that Johnny is a better student than he really is. If I were looking to recruit top students, I''d certainly feel as though I didn''t get what I bargained for by Johnny representing himself as an A-student. He is technically correct....he IS an A-student according to one school''s metrics, but he likely also knew I was expecting more when he represented himself that way.
Similarly, most consumers who buy diamonds at the ''top'' grade within a given grading system have the expectation they are getting the ''best'' available. They expect they''re getting the A. They don''t expect they''re getting A through F.
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diagem-= you keep acting as though HRD is a "Top Tier Lab"- THIS IS NOT THE CASE
it''s not true here in America, nor is true in Europe.
In the area of diamond consumption the US is far and away the world leader.
That in turn means the US consumer market is the most developed.
For example- walk into a jewelry store in Paris, Amsterdam, or Rome.
You''re simply not going to see a large selection of diamonds.
The net result is that the adherence to good consumer protective practices is far higher in the US than in say....Dubai.
This doesn''t mean that the people who work for HRD are...bad.
But the lab definitely is.
it''s not true here in America, nor is true in Europe.
In the area of diamond consumption the US is far and away the world leader.
That in turn means the US consumer market is the most developed.
For example- walk into a jewelry store in Paris, Amsterdam, or Rome.
You''re simply not going to see a large selection of diamonds.
The net result is that the adherence to good consumer protective practices is far higher in the US than in say....Dubai.
This doesn''t mean that the people who work for HRD are...bad.
But the lab definitely is.
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Hello??
Diagem- I''d really appreciate it if you would answer the points I raised.
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Badly cut?? Seems ok to me..., obviously you dont expect me to measure beauty based on a computer rendering.., do you?Date: 1/23/2009 2:32:06 PM
Author: strmrdr
The can be and still get the EX grade.
Karl..., you should know me by now...
eta: I did mention the fact that a wider range can produce more appearance options..., and break some of the uniformity of the ex we all know so well...
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Interesting
Why then would you not respond to my point.
HRD is NOT considered a top tier lab. Not ion the US, and not in Belgium.
I must assume you are either behaving in a rude manner, or agree with my point.
Diagem- this is your statement, and I agree.
Why then would you not respond to my point.
HRD is NOT considered a top tier lab. Not ion the US, and not in Belgium.
I must assume you are either behaving in a rude manner, or agree with my point.
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Interesting question Serg- do you know of a lab that is "unndergrading" well cut stones?
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Diagem, Thank you for at least acknowledging them.
I am interestined in this conversation, and honestly I'm interested in how you see things.
What I am saying is that HRD is not held in the high regard GIA enjoys.
It seems your position is that HRD is considered "top tier"
What tier are AGSL and GIA on?
I am interestined in this conversation, and honestly I'm interested in how you see things.
What I am saying is that HRD is not held in the high regard GIA enjoys.
It seems your position is that HRD is considered "top tier"
What tier are AGSL and GIA on?
Date: 1/23/2009 4:54:58 PM
Author: DiaGem
Serg..., now you want to confuse readers more??
1) All of them downgrade crown painting, do not good difference between crown painting , pavilion painting and digout.
2) All of them mix craftsmanship and optical appearance.
3) Difference between cut grade system is similar difference between attempts to find best triangle and rectangle to represent Italy map . Rectangle is better than triangle of course and much better than circle ( early all Labs use circles to represent Italy map) Even if you find best rectangle to model Italy map some Italian territory will downgrade to sea and some sea part will upgrade up to Italian territory . But will you use such grading report to buy land for Villa ? you can not build nice Villa in sea even very well printed Scientific report will give grade it is coast according latest best rectangle approximation
Because metric is too simple they can not build model Italian coast
1) or model should be too big If you do not like miss any good diamond ( HRD model without H&A grade)
2) Or model should be too small If you do not like add any bad diamond ( AGS model and HRD model with H&A grade)
3) Compromise model ( miss some good diamonds and add some bad diamonds( GIA model)
P.S Please do not remind me what last GIA and AGS cut grading systems base on Data set . Early they had Circle metric ( equal distance from Tolkowsky point). Now AGS has a more complex basic parameters , but metric is very simple( penalty any deviation from Tolkowsky point , Penalty any direction from Roma
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Gentlemen- IMO it''s not a gem labs job to "protect the consumer"- Storm is correct, the labs earn their living based on dealers using their services.
Of course each of us must be smart enough to protect ourselves- but past that, it''s really up to dealers to protect their clients.
There are dealers that see only profit- with no care for the client. These are the type I typically see pushing sub standard grading reports ( sorry, but HRD is in this group) I feel this is a short sighted plan, but there''s many dealers using it.
If a dealer is more interested in things like honest and accurate representation- which leads to a stronger long term business IMO, then the accuracy of a lab is crucial.
These dealers are going to use GIA or AGSL.
Serg- I agree there''s limitation with cut grading systems, but after looking at a lot of stones, it seems to me that GIA really picked a common sense position that works over the broad spectrum
Of course we can find anomalies.
strmrdr
Super_Ideal_Rock
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That is where the problem is with grading systems.
With rounds some cutters have cut what they consider the best product they can offer for a long time, with rounds a lot of them were shown to be right by the better grading systems.
Then you have cutters who want to explore markets by cutting better products, the grading systems can help here if they cut to the best part of the range.
But then you have cutters that find the weaknesses of a system and cut to that weakness if they can make a few extra bucks.
Over time that leads to more and more diamonds being cut that don't deserve the grade they are getting.
That is one thing I liked about the AGS 3D system is that it was much harder to game so instead
they pressured AGS into releasing the Gold system that can be gamed as bad as the gia system to get market share and AGS caved.
Again it comes back to who the customers are, the cutters not consumers.
I don't blame most dealers as some of them are on our side and do the best they can with a flawed system and face the same frustrations we do.
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Good point Storm- there are some badly cut stones that are being sold to uneducated consumers.
We differ in viewpoint as I don''t feel that you''re going to find that type of cutter going for- and achieving a top cut grade from GIA or AGS.
That''s where the substandard labs come in, and the subject of this thread is a perfect example.
My experience is that cutters who are using GIA or AGSL are generally trying to make the prettiest, and best cut diamond they can, which is ultimately the way to make that few bucks extra.
Princess cuts in general are great for weight retention.
That doesn''t mean that every cutter making princess cut is only interested in saving weight from the rough.
Of course the bottom line is going to always be the bottom line.
If a cutter can''t buy rough, polish and sell it profitably, then he''s out of business.
We differ in viewpoint as I don''t feel that you''re going to find that type of cutter going for- and achieving a top cut grade from GIA or AGS.
That''s where the substandard labs come in, and the subject of this thread is a perfect example.
My experience is that cutters who are using GIA or AGSL are generally trying to make the prettiest, and best cut diamond they can, which is ultimately the way to make that few bucks extra.
Princess cuts in general are great for weight retention.
That doesn''t mean that every cutter making princess cut is only interested in saving weight from the rough.
Of course the bottom line is going to always be the bottom line.
If a cutter can''t buy rough, polish and sell it profitably, then he''s out of business.
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