HPD,WF ACA, and a question on H&A

[Kavu44]

Hello All,

Wanted to get everyone's opinion. I am looking for a single solitaire engagement ring in a simple Tiffany style setting. I originated started to look at a local jeweler here in the SF Bay Area, Padis in the Jewelry Mart. They sell the Forevermark stones. Here is what they showed me:



I questioned about the H&A since based on one of the info out there (attached below), the dimensions of the two stones would not produce a H&A pattern.



The reply from Paris was:

Any diamond with a triple excellent cut grade should exhibit a hearts and arrows pattern only viewable with a special scope (we have one here). In addition, we have and aset tool which shows the light return. I just checked the 1.01 carat F VS1 and it does exhibit hearts and arrows

So my first question is would these two Forevermark Stones provide a H&A pattern. I know that one is buying more the name than actually getting a "better" stone from somewhere else. With that said, I am really considering HPD or a ACA WF. With the info on the HCA, Ideal Scope, etc. looking for the stone that has the most vibrance, sparkle, and the most bang for the buck. Looking for a ~1ct round, D-G, IF-VS2, which one would be a better choice, HPD or ACA WF?

Thanks for reading and the suggestions.

-Tim

 

[yssie]

Oh good god. Where on earth did that screenshot come from? It’s an inaccurate, incomplete, misleading travesty

Yes, pretty much all stones with EX/EX on sym/cut will exhibit some form of arrows and hearts. Will they be the precise hearts and arrows that boutique vendors advertise and that cost a premium to manufacture? Not a chance. That chart is lying, Padis is not. Exactly what H&A patterns those two stones might show, well, you’d need either stones+scope or imaging to know.

Did you actually see these two stones in-person? What did you think? They’re different flavours of RB. No right or wrong preferences.

Your stated priorities - looking for the stone that has the most vibrance, sparkle, and the most bang for the buck - are mutually exclusive. Specialty manufacturing for precise optical symmetry costs more, and those costs are passed on to the consumer alongside branding premiums - this is not what most would consider “bang for your buck”. So what is your primary goal?

 

[mwilliamanderson]

I don’t think you can go wrong with either choice. They both have great upgrade programs while HPD has a longer (lifetime) buy back option. It really depends on your budget and the current inventory of each company.

 

[hypermom]

I don’t think you can go wrong with either choice. They both have great upgrade programs while HPD has a longer (lifetime) buy back option. It really depends on your budget and the current inventory of each company.

Totally agree with this. Not impressed with the forevermore options. There are many more knowledgeable than me here, but I would look at stones at Whiteflash and High Performance Diamonds.

 

[Kavu44]

Thank you for the feedback. I found that chart online, https://www.heartsandarrows.com/hearts-arrows-diamond-ideal-cut-dna.aspx. Good thing I asked then! Guess you cannot trust everything you read online.

I did see the stones in person. Unfortunately, I didn't see them under a scope. Both of the stones looked fine. To be honest, they all look nice to me. Hard for me to tell that one looks "better" than the other if their specs are similar.

yes, my goal may be a little confusing. I assume just like most folks, trying to get a the highest grade stone for the least amount of money. If I had to pick, the cut would be the most important. I can sacrifice color and clarity, to an extent.

 

[chamois]

I would absolutely go with HPD or Whiteflash. It may depend on the setting you end up choosing though, because it is better IMO to purchase the diamond and setting from the same vendor.

Good luck

 

[lovedogs]

Thank you for the feedback. I found that chart online, https://www.heartsandarrows.com/hearts-arrows-diamond-ideal-cut-dna.aspx. Good thing I asked then! Guess you cannot trust everything you read online.

I did see the stones in person. Unfortunately, I didn't see them under a scope. Both of the stones looked fine. To be honest, they all look nice to me. Hard for me to tell that one looks "better" than the other if their specs are similar.

yes, my goal may be a little confusing. I assume just like most folks, trying to get a the highest grade stone for the least amount of money. If I had to pick, the cut would be the most important. I can sacrifice color and clarity, to an extent.

I would NOT go with either of these options. Forevermark are not super ideal stones, and these don't fall into preferred proportions. They won't be "true" ideal cut stones, as they just don't fall into the proportions that produce ideal light return.

We recommend the following:
Table: 54-47
Depth: 60-62.4
Crown angle: 34-35
Pavilion: 40.6-40.8 (40.9 can work with 34 crown)

As you can see, the ones you are considering don't fall into those ranges, so I am concerned if they are selling them as "ideal".

I don’t think you can go wrong with either choice. They both have great upgrade programs while HPD has a longer (lifetime) buy back option. It really depends on your budget and the current inventory of each company.

If I'm understanding @mwilliamanderson is saying, it's that you can't go wrong with HPD or WF, not that these stones from forevermark are good choices.

 

[lovedogs]

PS. unless your GF is INCREDIBLY color sensitive, D/E/F will all look very white, and to most people G is a nice "Sweet spot" in terms of looking white without being as expensive as D/E/F. That said, if she specifically said she wants D/E/F then listen to her

 

[Wewechew]

You should even look at some SI1 stones to maximize your budget

 

[mwilliamanderson]

If I'm understanding @mwilliamanderson is saying, it's that you can't go wrong with HPD or WF, not that these stones from forevermark are good choices.

Yes, that’s exactly what I meant! I was answering his last question “which one would be a better choice, HPD or ACA WF? ”

 

[lovedogs]

Within budget, larger, infinitely better cut.
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4107649.htm

If you are fine sacrificing size for high color and clarity, this one:
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4159451.htm

 

[lovedogs]

I take it back. This one if you need high color
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD10835

This if you can live with a G (most people find they are quite white)
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD10855

 

[Wewechew]

This if you can live with a G (most people find they are quite white)
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD10855

I am color sensitive and I can’t see tint in a G. I can in an H.

 

[sledge]

Technically, just about any round diamond should exhibit some sort of a rough hearts & arrow shape. However, the vast majority of stones lack the symmetrical precision to be called a true H&A stone.

All these stones are AGS0 but only the one on the far right is a true H&A stone.

https://www.whiteflash.com/about-di...ow-are-hearts-arrows-diamonds-graded-1578.htm

This next graphic shows much larger variances in the H&A patterning and you can see they range in cut quality from AGS0 to AGS7.

https://www.whiteflash.com/about-di...nefits-of-hearts-and-arrows-diamonds-1521.htm

 

[Rose-gold-or-bust]

If you are willing to go to a G, high performance diamonds has some cbi over the 1ct mark for less than these forevermark diamonds. I would definitely go that route. And if you are not willing to go a little lower in colors, they have some E SI1 that would be worth checking out. Heck.. they even have E VS stones ... go to high performance diamonds and get yourself a cbi

 

[sledge]

I take it back. This one if you need high color
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD10835

This would be my pick. F color and it will be an eye clean SI1. Super ideal that will be a true H&A stone.

I think this is a great blend of qualities. You stay in color where someone might notice if you cheated. In a 1 carat stone, you aren't wasting money on clarity your eyes can't appreciate.

Most importantly, you stressed budget earlier. I see the diagram you attached earlier shows a total cost of $10,790 before tax and that it includes a $790 platinum band (assuming Tiffany style, given your earlier statements).

With the HPD stone, you are at $9,292 or $8,828 if you take advantage of the 5% wire discount. That leaves you a minimum of $1,500 to pick a quality platinum setting and HPD's bench is quite superb, and could kick you out a Tiffany style with little problems.

You might even have a few bones left over to take your lady out for a nice steak dinner.

Not to mention an awesome lifetime upgrade program -- full credit for your existing stone to be used towards a larger stone, or maybe two stones or however you wish. Literally a zero strings approach that rivals the competition. And they have an 80% buyback policy, which as far as I know is the only vendor offering such a thing.

https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/whyus/whyus-upgrades
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/whyus/whyus-lifetime

 

[yssie]

I see why you trusted this site @Kavu44. I’m glad you found PS before buying. There’s just enough truth to seem plausible and the acknowledgments page has some noteworthy names.

I sincerely doubt the reputable personnel listed in those acknowledgments had anything to do with the verbiage, though. Given the variance in imaging/photography in their articles I question whether they even own DC and scopes or if they’re just trawling Google images.

Really unfortunate that they got that TLD, it gives their site gravitas it does not deserve.

You will find that even here on PS we regulars occasionally have dissenting opinions. Some of us favour proportions charts and some of us advise against them we all agree on this, though: If you choose a vendor that specializes in precision cut RBs like WF or HPD, you don’t need to do anything at all beyond find the right combo of carat/colour/clarity for your budget. Cut is already taken care of for you!

 

[lydial]

I had a great experience buying from HPD. The 2.66 ct stone in my avatar is a "K" and I NEVER plan to upgrade it! It is, as I like to say, molten mercury with colorful reflections in so many lighting environments. I would buy from them again any day.

 

[Wewechew]

I take it back. This one if you need high color
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD10835

This if you can live with a G (most people find they are quite white)
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD10855

Preference of size or color?

 

[Kavu44]

I appreciate all the feedback! At least it narrows it down to buy from WF or HPD! I'm open to color down to G/H. I know SI1 is not bad but mentally it is hard for me to swallow so likely will go up clarity. I guess once I narrow down on the stone, will have to look at settings which leads me into another question on differences in manufacturing from casting, HIP, forging, etc. I'll start another thread on that though. Thanks again for all the feedback!

 

[RayRay]

Don’t be afraid of a SI1 or SI2 CBI! I have a F SI2 and I seriously don’t see any inclusions!

 

[RayRay]

Plus you could easily trade in or send it back if you do see them!

 

[sledge]

I can understand your concerns with clarity. If I'm shopping virtual inventory I prefer to bump to VS2 personally. It means I miss some opportunities but I also avoid some risk.

However, in the case of shops like HPD, WF, etc where they keep inventory in-house, have their own gemologist, have a reputation for their honesty (even at the expense of a sale) and will jump through hoops by shooting photos and videos so there are no surprises then my comfort level to accept a good eye clean SI1 raises considerably.

HPD has a great policy regarding eye clean stones. Remember clarity is graded using a 10x scope and the images and videos we see online are very magnified.

https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/education/education-clarity

I really wouldn't have a problem buying an SI1 from HPD or WF, but I would likely talk with them about the stone in question for additional warm fuzzies.