How do vendors determine cut and price....

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Unfortunately I would not consider buying it DM because the information I listed does not tell me for instance if it has a 29.5 degree crown or a 35.5 degree crown.
GIA place the crown angle warnings when a stone is -1 degree below 30 and +1 degree over 35.

The proportions I listed can occur at such a wide range and for my standards there is about a 50% at best chance that the stone would be good.

I could present you with similar examples below 57% table size if you wish.

You participate in a common trade practice of convenience, that many of us here believe will die out soon. Especially after we have widely accepted and proper cut grading for individual stones. How would you feel if many of the stones you were selling came in at 5 out of 10's?
I feel it is like selling SI's as VS's.

I can ideal-scope thousands of stones a day when on buying trips and then only examine the best cuts more carefully for selection. It takes less than a few seconds a stone.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Gary, I'm still waiting for my BEER!




Yes I'm a dinasaour. I'm probably still around because a lot of folks like to do things the "old fashoined" way


Do you have any idea of what percentage of all diamond sales are "Ideal" or "H&A"?-currently it's pretty small.


In my opinion this sector is likely to grow.


Regardless, it is shortsighted to judge the entire industry based on such a small portion of it.


It's probably no secret that I find many of the new tools, including the HCA, to be useless for 95% of all diamond purchases.


I'm sure that someone like Barry of SuprbCert, or Jonathan at GoodOldGold make all the neccesary investments in B'scopes and all the tools associated with H&A. Also true that I believe buyer are better served by building a relationship with one of the places known for these stones, and getting all the important details from a seller they trust.








I suppose that if you can use the machine, and take a lot of the stressful decision making out of the buying process, all the better- But I always find unique opportunities on great looking stones that don't fall into the H&A category- therefore, I've got to make decisions based solely on visual characteristics- of course, as DM does- I look at the cert- if there is one.


I also find a lot of opportunities to buy great stones that have never visited a gem lab.


This kind of decision making leads one to get used to trusting the eye.




As far as the diamonds I love, I live on the other side of the tracks.


On this side of town, there's plenty of room for diversity. That means allowing cutters to express themselves in unique ways. Remember, H&A by definition fall within very narrow guidlines right? This makes them all look pretty much alike. Of course it can be argued that this also means that every person buying an H&A from a good dealer is guaranteed to get exactly the look they want- this is a very good point about H&A.




Does a cushion "perform" as well as a H&A- not on the machines- but the absurdity of this question makes me laugh.


Does Eric Clapton play better than Jimmy Page? ( Clapton's better live, Page on record in my opinion, but that's another thread)




As I've said, I see growth in demand for Ideal Makes. That means plenty of folks looking for a formula to make sure they're getting the "best" cut. There's absolutely nothing wrong with learing- but take as much time learning about your seller as you do about the perfect angles for a stone.


I think that the demand for unique, one of a kind natural diamonds- diamonds that can never be judged by formulas will also stay stong.




Cal me T-Rex.

 

[diamondsman]

this only reassures what i was saying before, that stone that you gave me the measur. was not an ideal make, right? and it did have the right angeles , otherwise the g.i.a would have under comments:cr angles less than -30% , or cr angles greater than 35%.
"the certificate tells it all" you can try with many examples as long as you give me all the details i will be able to tell you about the stone.
Dont forget to mention if it has cr. angles if it is written on the cert.
Like I said before I have been doing this for 30 years since I am 18 and I guess I know what I am doing otherwise I wouldnot have lasted this long.
I buy millions of dollars worth of goods and have not made any mistakes so far as far as the make is concerned.

best regards

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Hey David, thanks for the pricing comparison of fancy yellows. I archived it in my files. Your comparisons followed closely with what I've seen.

I know what both you and Dave are talking about. Down here we call it "the look". A diamond which looks bad on paper but sexy to the eye. That's what the customer sees, and that's what they buy.

Garry has bucked the trend in this area as well. His IdealScope and HCA has identified many great looking stones to the eye which don't follow the traditonal trends in "fine makes". He maintains that these stones are going to come into more demand and increase in value as GIA and other organizations begin to recognize the "unorthodox proportions" which have great beauty.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

You're very welcome Richard!


DM- I'm sorry, I never meant to imply in any way that you are not a very good diamond merchant.


We differ in regards to the way we look at certificates. I suspect this has more to do with the fact that we probably buy different types of goods.


No disrespect intended and I apologize if it came off that way.




If the HCA assists folks, then it's a good thing.

 

[diamondsman]

Hi David,
I appreciate your apology,but my comment was meant for cut nut,not you, thank you anyway for your compliments. I think we were writing the same thing just in different words.
You wrote that that you also look at certs. of stones without all the gadets that are recommended and I agree with you,I think that the g.i.a/e.g.l/i.g.i/h.r.d are doing a great job at describing the stone with all the necessary numbers to tell if it is a nice,very nice or ideal etc...
This is how it works for me.this is the answer to the original question.
1)I get a list of stones from diamond cutters overseas as they have gotten their results from g.i.a/e.g.l etc..
2)I choose the stones with the cuts that I like according to the measur.that G.I.A/E.G.L ETC.. has given them.3)
3)I order them in after we agree on a price
4)When I get them in after a few days I via brinks, I then examine the clarities only, as I know that the cut is not an issue anymore.(look at # 2)
5) I pick the ones that I like from the clarities (yes those have to be visually inspected)
6) send them their money on the ones I bought send the rest back.
I also do the same thing when I go overseas ,These cutters come with hundredS stones at a time ,I look at the certificates, and pick the ones I like the measurements,diameter ,depth,table,etc...
and I tell them to only show me the ones I picked from the certs.
I am sure that many of other vendors do the same.

The cert. tells it all about cut.

reagrds

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I think the fundemental difference in approach DM is that you are selling an additional clarity grading service and the 'paper'.
I prefer to also sell an additional cut service, as well as examine the stones clarity and color to see if it mathces the paper.

I examine the stones first, because it is faster than reading the paper. In the case of suppiers overseas (and most of mine are) they only send me stones they pre sort with an ideal-scope that they think have a chance of getting accepted. Or with larger stones they send Sarin sticker data first.

Your approach certainly is the way business is currently done (as David rightly says - premium cut makes up less than 10% of the biz). But this will all change very rapidly once GIA bring out a cut grade.

I also expect to see angles on some other certs (along with the crown and pav %'s) real soon.

Then the marketing of diamonds will change again. I am sure you will adapt, but some people have already done so. We should expect their businesses will grow even stronger then.

 

[diamondsman]

I havenot heard anything about g.i.a changing their way of grading or certificates,you want the diamond industry to change to your way of thinking maybe because you have created this scope? Well I hope that the world would be a better world to live in with peace and harmony among all mankind, Until this happens we all have to accept the way things are.
G.i.a doesnot plan on changing their way of grading by putting the crown angles,they do so already under comments,
as I stated before,if the stone doesnot have the right angles they would write crown angles are less than 30% ,or cr.angles are greater than 35%.that means that the stone is either too shallow or built up.
I doubt that these people that you are buying from look at every stone with the scope, as they would have someone sit there for days on , in order to supply your my needs, they don't have the time to do that with me.
every wholesaler that I know uses the same method that I do.
You get a list of certs. with all the details you pick the ones that you know are the best cut by the measurments depth,table,cr.angles etc.... and then we tell them to send us those stones , we then look at the clarities and pick the ones that are the nicest for that particular grade.
Bottom line is that if the industry will change like you hope it will,by buying that scope you keep on promoting?
I know one thing that diamonds have brought joy and happiness to many peoples for many generations without having these scopes.It is like a piece of art every one has a different taste and everyone can't afford the ideal make stone everytime, that is why somtimes they go for the vg cut which looks the same to the untrained eye without paying a premium for ideal make.Let's face it when a lady has a stone on her finger ,she doesnot go around saying it is an ideal cut.my wife doesnot have one and all she gets is compliments all day long.
I do have them and and most of them i bought with just looking at the cert first,that is easy I have never made a mistake yet in my analysis of cut.

this is my final note
best regards to all.

 

[mdx]

G,day Diamondman

I think you will find that in practice most of these scopes where in fact invented by buyers frustrated by the lack of data available on GIA certs.

I know what you are implying in your comment that it’s easy to buy from a cert. I’ve seen many people in the trade assume that if a 1ct diamond has a diameter of 6.5mm and depth of 60% and table of 57% its going to be above average, Choosing from a list this way will at best have an accuracy of not more 50%. Sometimes if you know the cutting factory well you can improve the odds if they cut to a preference.

These days however most of the better factories have Sarin or Ogi machines so it’s no big deal to get the numbers on your lists. In fact in old days we used get some pretty accurate manual data from factories using proportion scopes and measuring under their microscopes.

Regards

Johan ( Wayne’s underpaid Techo)

Melbourne Diamond Exchange Ltd

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Hey Johan,


I know exactly waht you're saying about why these machines were invented- consumers are actually....desparate for a means of guaranteeing the cut of their diamond. The fact is, cut is incredibly important in poeple's enjoyment of diamonds, it's true. But you don't need a sarin to guarantee a great cut.


Nothing against a sarim machine- I'm quite sure you're correct- factiories cutting for H&A have these machines. But taken as a worldwide number, only a tiny percentage of cutting factories have a sarin.




Although Gary feels that GIA will start to issue a "Cut Grade"- and I really can't say he's correct or otherwise- this will still not change the fact that most diamonds sold are NOT "Ideal" or H&A stones. No Question there will be more and more "ideal" cuts sold. As there seems to be strong, continued demand for , say, princess cut diamonds.




To this day many people at the very highest levels of the diamond biz truly prefer 60/60Good/Good to 56/61 EX/EX-


If your a Hearts and Arrows lover, more power to you, they are beautiful.


I see more growth in cuts that can't be defined to such a degree. Princess Cut, Radiant. Asscher, Pear Shape- All designs which can never be standardized like an RBC.




Of course a diamond is about love, right? Clearly the most important thing is what the recipient of the diamond loves.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I never said gIA would be the first to release a new cut system - others interpreted that

I do not think they will be

 

[diamondsbylauren]

----------------
"On 11/5/2003 1:06:38 AM Cut Nut wrote:





But this will all change very rapidly once GIA bring out a cut grade."
OK Gary, based on your knowledge exactly who else IS coming out with a cut grade? And when?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Did I mention a cut grade?

GIA will eventually have a cut grade. But that is hardly news.

Other possabilities exist

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Gary my friend, you owe me a beer.

Below is your post of 11/5 where you mention cut grade.

I am not trying to give you a hard time Gary. For the record- I just call them like I see'em- as you do.

----------------
On 11/5/2003 1:06:38 AM Cut Nut wrote:











I think the fundemental difference in approach DM is that you are selling an additional clarity grading service and the 'paper'.
I prefer to also sell an additional cut service, as well as examine the stones clarity and color to see if it mathces the paper.

I examine the stones first, because it is faster than reading the paper. In the case of suppiers overseas (and most of mine are) they only send me stones they pre sort with an ideal-scope that they think have a chance of getting accepted. Or with larger stones they send Sarin sticker data first.

Your approach certainly is the way business is currently done (as David rightly says - premium cut makes up less than 10% of the biz). But this will all change very rapidly once GIA bring out a cut grade.

I also expect to see angles on some other certs (along with the crown and pav %'s) real soon.

Then the marketing of diamonds will change again. I am sure you will adapt, but some people have already done so. We should expect their businesses will grow even stronger then.
----------------

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

A nice Belgian one do David?

Thanks I could not remember exactly what i wrote

Too much beer?

GIA is no surprise - But the other issue is more interesting to all the cut junkies

 

[diamondsman]

thank you david!
I didnot want to comment any more but it seems as though we think alike.I dont think that I have ever heard about this guy ,and every time I see his posts he tries to promote this scope???why?
He says things and then says that he doesnot remmember ,too much beer?
I tell it as it is ,G.i.a will not/doesnot change their way of grading ,their certs are self explantory, Very much detailed, and there is no need for all this other stuff that people are trying to promote here cause they have an $$$ interest in it.
The fact is that in regards to the original question here,We all base our buying according to the certificates that are handed to us at the time of buying .
unless we mfg the diamonds from the rough ,then we really dont have a chioce but to make the best stone possible in order to make money,and we hand it to g.i.a to certify,after which we price it according to the cut that G.I.A has given us in their CERTS.!!!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

----------------
On 11/7/2003 11:15:40 PM diamondsman wrote:

thank you david!
I didnot want to comment any more but it seems as though we think alike.I dont think that I have ever heard about this guy ,and every time I see his posts he tries to promote this scope???why?
He says things and then says that he doesnot remmember ,too much beer?
I tell it as it is ,G.i.a will not/doesnot change their way of grading ,their certs are self explantory, Very much detailed, and there is no need for all this other stuff that people are trying to promote here cause they have an $$$ interest in it.
The fact is that in regards to the original question here,We all base our buying according to the certificates that are handed to us at the time of buying .
unless we mfg the diamonds from the rough ,then the stone then we really dont ahve a chioce but to make the best stone possible in order to make money,and we hand it to g.i.a to certify,after which we price it according to the cut that G.I.A has given us in their CERTS.!!!

----------------

Does this mean the GIA's Dr's Mary Johnson and Ilene Reinitz as well as al Gilbertson have lost their jobs?
Have you heard about GIA's Cut Studies DM? They began a decade ago and have resulted in 2 Gems & Gemology papers on Brilliance and Fire in 1998 and 2001.

and bTW I do not just promote the Ideal-Scope - I promote the improvement of the cut quality of all diamonds, one tool is the Ideal-Scope, which makes cut grading accessable to all. Another is HCA which is provided free of charge - but needs vendors to provide crown and pavilion angles.

I have no beef with you or your business methods DM - but I think you are an 'at risk species'. But that does not mean I want to make you an enemy, or think you should be frightened of me.

I am just a simple bloke on a crusade to change the diamond industry in regards to cut

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Gary, let's put things in perspective.

I do not believe a taking a formula and plugging it in to a computer generated model is of any use whatsoever. If that puts us at odds, it should really not be a personal thing.

The value of these forums is precisely that people who have a lot of experience in the field can contribute honest opinions. Many experts agree that the HCA is useless. Physically examining the diamond, analyzing the numbers on a GIA or AGS report, using a B-Scope or other tools- this is how dealers buy diamonds.

Personally, I do not need to know the specific crown or pavillion angles. My eyes tell me which diamond is the one to buy, and which one to pass. I buy millions of dollars worth of diamonds a year without certificates. On the certified diamonds I buy, the cert is usually the last thing I look at. I examine the diamond- Many people have an eye for color and clarity. After examining the diamond, I look at the cert.
Most dealers do things this way.

That's where I do not agree with DM, but I have a feeling he's an honest succesful guy who knows his business. He see it one way, I see it another. Nothing personal.

If you wish to advance your HCA on it's merits, personal attacks do not foward your cause at all. Just the opposite.

I would have no quarrel with you. But you really ambushed DM on this thread. I have also been the target of completely unwarranted attacks from you.
Sorry, but my memory is a little better.

And even if I've forgotten more than you'll ever know about the buying of diamonds, that doesn't mean that people like me or DM will be extinct so soon.

If the market for H&A, ideal cut, Asscher, Flanders, Regent or any particular branded cut increases, that's not going to diminsh the demand for stones which will never fit into such categories.
The purchases where H&A is relevant will never eclipse a single digit percentage of the entire market.
I am as big an advocate as any for cutters cutting, and buyers buying well cut diamonds- it's just that no matter how the technology of quantifying diamonds mechanically increases, I believe that the final judge is always going to be an eyball.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

David you are welcome to your opinion.

I am just as concerned that we can help diamond cutters maximise both yeilds and beauty - to truly add value in the process of turning pebbles into sparkling gems, as I am about the entrenched opinions of dealers who continue to do what they always did.

Good luck to you.
I will take my course and you take yours.
I do not try to be rude to you or DM David, but if you are thrreatened by cut research and new developments then I can not do much about it I am afraid

 

[diamondsman]

I still feel that cut nut is trying to promote his idealscope,And beleive me I am not threatned not affraid of you or your comments.I know one thing as much as you try to teach the cutters about "cut" ,To them it is about making a living/money,the rough diamond dictates how much of a stone is going to be left after polishing it, and if it means that the cut is not going to pass your "ideal scope",and for them to make money without having the "ideal cut" stone , well that is exactly what they are going to do.
Another words if they have a choice of creating an ideal cut stone and loosing money ,or cutting a good cut stone and make money they will go with the second choice!!
What do you think they should do if someone like you tries to promote his invention of ideal scope!!! oh btw even if g.i.a has been studying like you say about h&a and have not come to a concrete solution why do you think you are the authority???I have been on this fourum for a while and ahve gotten a lot of business from people that have read these threads ,most of them didn't buy H&A, and they have only complimented my knowledge and integrity,as I walked them through their purchases.Granted they all bought very well made stones,But didnot insist on h&a stones as they are overpriced and visually have the same look as the ones I recommended.Every time I read one of your threads it is about you promoting the ideal scope!!I think we had enough of it.Belive me I am not at all threatned by your cut reaserch and the new developments, as most jlrs. and most industry leaders ahve not heard about your research and it is probably more about selling your invention.
Meanwhile more diamonds are being traded that are not h&a on a daily basis,and I am sure they make who ever wears them very happy.
I am not trying to be rude like you , But I think that the original question was about how do we purchase diamonds and that calls for he majority of the diamond vendors. And not a few that want the world to change to their way of thinking.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

For some reason DM you seem to want to fight me.
I do not want to fight you, or anyone else. I am Australian and we are rather forthright - so if my words rankle you can you please stop and as we say - give me a fair go?

Now as you say - I am trying to flog Ideal-scopes - yes Guilty as charged

If I do not flog any then I do not change any practices. And it is not the $3 I make from each scope that makes me do this - it is the belief that there is a better way. I am on a passionate crusade to get to the cutter as he is marking each diamond and help him work out the best yeild in dollars.

If I was a cutter and you read my GIA certs you would not buy many of my diamonds - but if you looked at them you would say WOW - how did he do that with those #'s. I would get a better yeild in about 1/3 of stones and almost always a better look - but still only a small % of ideal-cuts. I know about yeild and money, and realise that cutters will only cut a stone to get the most $'s.

So you post here DM to get people to buy your diamonds - that is great - people get your balanced wisdom and experiance - and you do not push yourself down peoples faces.

I do not try to sell diamonds here - I try to give away info.
Try this for me please. Go to HCA and put in 29 degree crown angle and 41.8 degree pavilion and a thickish girdle. That is what cutters would like to do with sawn tops. And they look great - especially in small stones - very bright. Yeild is about 3% better

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Gary,

I don't think anyone is particularly threatened by you, but please can't we keep this nice?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I thought I was keeping it nice David. That was what I just explained.

This was an interesting comment though on DT. I think it is relevant here being that we were discussing selling the cut of diamonds from just 2 %'s.

You said:
"Nonsence about Fire battling Brilliance. Nonsence about anyone being "the Leading authority"
There are many different, valid points of view. Garry's point of view is appreciated by some, yet there are many others- extremely competant people ( experts), who feel differently.

Call it what you like, 60/60 is preferred by some, "Ideal" proportions by others. Fire and brilliance are two words people use to describe things they see, not scientific expressions, or gemological grades.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David
Diamonds by Lauren / Rock Diamond
Visit my eBay store

My answer to your comment is:
When a diamond is reflecting or returning refracted light from a facet to your eye, that has come from a bright light source, then you can not ever possibly see fire from that particular facet - it will be too bright and the color of the light source.
The more facets that there are that leak light, or are dark because the proportions are too shallow or too deep (i.e. the observers head blocks a lot of potential returned light) - then the less brilliance the stone will have. These stones often return more fire.
Take an old cut - lots of leakage, and nail head effect inside the table = less brilliance and therefore you can see more fire.
This is helped by the facets appearing to be larger because the lower girdles are very short.

As for the "Expertise" issue, since I live eat and breath this stuff, i think it is fair that some people consider I have some.
I do not however tell to trust my expertise - i just do what i do and leave it up to you

 

[diamondsman]

I agree with david,No one is threatened by you or your comments,I am not trying to fight you,Just that you are constantly offering to purchase your idealscope and that is not how the industry pursues their diamond purchases.In fact most wholesalers that I know have never heard of it or you, Please stop promoting your scope as we are not allowed to promote our sites ,I would like to know how you are going to teach diamond cutters to cut their diamonds to ideal proprtion only ,and still make money don't you think they know that ,and that if it was possible they would do it???
As far as certs. are concerned ,if the stone has angeles that are lower than 30% ,it will be written under comments:Crown angeles are less than 30%/or greater than 35%.and that tellus that the stone is either sahllow or builtup."the certs tell us all about cut"

the original question was how vendors purchase and determine cut,and that is a general question,not how you buy diamonds with the idealscope.

g-day mate

 

[diamondsman]

I agree with david,No one is threatened by you or your comments,I am not trying to fight you,Just that you are constantly offering to purchase your idealscope and that is not how the industry pursues their diamond purchases.In fact most wholesalers that I know have never heard of it or you, Please stop promoting your scope as we are not allowed to promote our sites ,I would like to know how you are going to teach diamond cutters to cut their diamonds to ideal proprtion only ,and still make money don't you think they know that ,and that if it was possible they would do it???
As far as certs. are concerned ,if the stone has angeles that are lower than 30% ,it will be written under comments:Crown angeles are less than 30%/or greater than 35%.and that tellus that the stone is either sahllow or builtup."the certs tell us all about cut"

the original question was how vendors purchase and determine cut,and that is a general question,not how you buy diamonds with the idealscope.

g-day mate

 

[spicolicpa]

Took a brief vacation from Pricescope;

It amazes me at how inflammatory this Topic (HCA) is. I posted this on another forum at Diamond Talk and got some very extreme opinions, as usual I pissed some people off... This is the conclusion I reached.

Diamonds By Lauren was one of the posters that was very much against the HCA. Everyone is intitled to their opinions.

There are some vendors who do not like the HCA because perhaps it takes some leverage away from the experts....granted that it uses very few of the total facets....but it is a step in the right direction.

In the end it is only tool, one of many. I personally feel that more of these tools are a good thing, not a bad thing.

Here is the link:
Link to thread about HCA
________________________________________________________________________
It is then your opinion that the only way to buy a diamond is to personally see it or have someone you personally know as a reputable diamond expert see the stone.
But also what you are implying is that you would never buy a stone from the large diamond brokers some of which are listed at Pricescope.com.

Lets call yours the quasi-e-commerce approach.

This is fine and many fine pieces of jewelry have been made and purchased at reasonable prices......

But....I believe there are differing opinions on this.

With the advent of internet sales the customer has access to massive databases like Pricescope, where he can select one of 200,000 diamonds.

I think that is an awesome pool of stones and merchants to pick from, and this is the true definition of E-commerce.

The beta, or inherent risk will of course increase with this transaction, and what the HCA and other "customer" tools are attempting to do is Minimize (Of course not eliminate-as it is limited in its scope) this risk.

As always there is a risk/reward analysis to me made.

 

[pricescope]

Unfortunately, this topic ended with personal attacks and I have to close it.

Any debate can and must be conducted in civilized, academic manner using facts, not emotions.

Thank you for understanding.