How do vendors determine cut and price....

[derekinla]

with GIA graded stones. Without the total specs or sarin analysis, how do vendors determine the cut of the stone and pricng?

 

[DiamondExpert]

Eyeball it, loupe it, 'scope it, Sarin it, B'Scope it, IdealScope it.

 

[derekinla]

----------------
On 10/1/2003 5:14:37 PM DiamondExpert wrote:

Eyeball it, loupe it, 'scope it, Sarin it, B'Scope it, IdealScope it.----------------

How about Jewelers without B Scope's, Ideal Scopes, Sarin Scopes? Seems to me we get ALOT of posts here from people who seem to find an interesting GIA stone but are unable to supply more info because the vendor does not readily have info on the full specs. Assuming the vendor actually possesses the stone in his inventory, the vendor is either not giving out the ful specs (i.e. no sarin readily available), or he's eyeballing/louping it. Is this correct?

 

[DiamondExpert]

You're correct that sometimes it is difficult to get info, but whether or not the vendor has the stone, it is frequently possible to at least get a Sarin.

The B'Scope is most expensive and difficult to get from a vendor (very few have these instruments) - it requires getting the stone from the wholesaler (assuming that the vendor doesn't own it), sending it to GemEx - shipping, insurance, running the report would cost at least $150 and could be $2-500 for a large stone - most vendors won't take the risk on a memo item unless it is an almost done deal.

 

[derekinla]

It therefore seems reasonable to conclude that most vendors with GIA certed stones probably at one point, looked at a sarin report to come up with an assessment of cut (to determine price). My question is, why doesn't the average diamond vendor readily disclose this info? The cynic in me tells me that alot of vendors might want to withold the full cut parametrs in order to be able to sell stones to the uninitiated for premium prices not congruent with the actual cut quality. Am I off base or what?

 

[DiamondExpert]

Ya, I think it's a little paranoid...they just don't have the data or a machine and are not willing to undertake the extra work to get the info for you...I don't think it's that they have the data and are withholding it...I don't see the point of doing that.

 

[derekinla]

----------------
On 10/3/2003 8:06:38 PM DiamondExpert wrote:

Ya, I think it's a little paranoid...they just don't have the data or a machine and are not willing to undertake the extra work to get the info for you...I don't think it's that they have the data and are withholding it...I don't see the point of doing that.----------------

I guess my question is if they don't have the machine or the data, how do these vendors/jewelers come up with a determination of cut and therefore price? Are they just going with a loupe and the rap? Take for instance Robbins Brothers which is a mega sized diamond store /chain in Southern California. Alot of their stones are GIA certed, and when they come out with the stone and the cert, there is no additional report showing the full specs. WHen asked about such data, they say they can get it but, again, it's not readily available at that moment. Unless they're going with the eyeball method (I doubt they have B scopes, Isee2 machines, or are using firescopes, idealscopes), how do they make a determination of price /cut. If the sarin has been done, why not disclose the data up front instead of locking it up somewhere in an office. Am I missing something here??? The same thing could be said of the pricescope vendors that come up on a diamond search. ALOT of GIA certs, but NO SARIN info, yet there is clearly a price that has been determined. In some ways this is like a doctor telling a patient that they're diabetic yet there is no readily accesible laboratory data to support this assessment.

 

[derekinla]

With online vendors selling AGS stones, or vendors who proudly show-off their Bscope, Isee2's, firescope images, and sarin reports, I can see how one might justify a particular price but with just a GIA cert? Come on now.

 

[diamondsman]

I peronally can tell by the measurements, depth, table,
girdle,etc...,how the stone looks ,as far as the cut is concerened!
In order to verify clarity you must loupe it if it's less than IF-vvs2, in order to determine the severity of the imperfection ,in relation to the clarity that was given by the laboratory, some are more distinct than others even though they are the same clarity.
But as far as cut is concerened I go by the measur.

my 2 cents .

 

[DiamondExpert]

derekinla:

Most of the inventories you speak of are links to wholesalers goods, and the vendors just add on their markup so they have no other input as to price. The prices are set at the wholesale level in large part.

Where vendors have "in house" inventory, they have made a decision about buying those stones, and presumably they have looked the goods over carefully and in some cases got extra data (Sarin, BScope, IdealScope, etc.) on those stones to justify their purchases...this added info would/should then be available to use as support for selling to the retail customer.

diamondsman:

So are you saying you can tell the make of a stone from looking at the info on a GIA cert?

 

[diamondsman]

yes! especially round stones!!

 

[DiamondExpert]

Remarkable...care to share with us just how do this?

 

[dimonbob]

"how do these vendors/jewelers come up with a determination of cut and therefore price?"

The price from the vendor is not determined by the cut, it is determined by how much it costs from the wholesale cutter. The vendor just adds in a percent markup.

Derek, just a few years ago there were no Sarin, b-scope idealscope, HCA and a few other new handy-dandy tricks. All we had was the GIA certificate. We did very well without all this fancy stuff because it had not been invented yet. When you have a GIA cert with the right numbers for the depth and table and ex/ex you have a pretty good diamond. All the new information is just frosting on the cake. None of them are a guarantee of what the eye will see. That is the reason we bring in the diamond so we can see what the diamond looks like plus matching the stone to the certificate and making sure there are no new chips like the corners of a princess cut.

 

[Rhino]

That is a good question you ask Gary. I'd like to know how to determine cut quality by just a GIA Report and I've been doing this for 23 years!




Dereklina,




The short answer to your question is most jewelry stores just go by GIA or AGS data alone with no knowledge of the actual proportions, variances, optical symmetry, actual light return/leakage, etc. When they are ignorant or misinformed and do not educate their clients then you have a case of the blind leading the blind and sadly that is how it is in most of the jewelry stores of the world. I think it'd be safe to say that over 95% of people purchasing diamonds do not walk into their decisions with the knowledge they could have had. This is where doing your homework pays off.




Regards,


Rhino

 

[DiamondExpert]

Rhino - well I can't do it either, so my breath is bated and I'm waiting to learn how this is accomplished -

 

[diamondsman]

Yes ,Just give the measurements . depth. table,girdle etc...... and I can tell you if the make is nice

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Diamondsman, check out this link:

https://www.pricescope.com/tutor_60.asp

On GIA paper, these two diamonds would appear identical.

 

[diamondsman]

I just looked at those diamonds The diameter would be different, and also the gia would write under comments that "crown angeles are greater than 35%,which would have meant that the stone is built up ,therfore it's diameter might be less that the one that is perfectly cut.
The certificate tells it all!!

especially in round stones.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

With all due respect to a GIA report- it is not possible to buy diamonds based soley on the GIA info.
Yes, you can pretty much tell if it's a well made round diamond- but the finer points- points beyond a sarin, or b-scope- these are only made by eye.
Ultimately, the person buying the diamond must look at it and decide.

But to anwser derekinla's original question-
IT's only a narrow band of stones to which Sarin info is relevant.
It's a moot point because if someone wants an ideal cut, there's probably going to be an AGS report.
On the other hand if someone wants a 60/60, it's pretty much always done thru visual inspection. Remember, buyers paying H&A prices want all this data. People paying for well made, non ideal diamonds, are far less in need of such detailed data.
Although diamondsman relies on the certificate, I always look at a diamond.

It's also moot in many cases because fancy shape, and fancy color diamonds are not as easily catagorized, rendering the sarin irrelevant.

Also moot because many stones are sold with no cert at all. A dealer must be able to determine make, but more importantly, desirability, before committing to a diamond.
Most "wholesalers" buy and sell many stones without so much as a GIA report.

 

[diamondsman]

I agree with david , But I think that if we are talking about cut only, not quality ,then it could very well be determined by the report, given all the measurements.
What do you do if you cannot see the diamond? ,Just like most internet shoppers?They have to go by the measurements of the stone to determine an excellent/good cut.
I get lists of stones everyday to be bought from diamond mfg. and I pick the ones that I like by the measur. after they send it to me I see them and then decide if I like the imperfections.
I have never made a mistake yet on the on cut after I have gotten the measur.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

I do not think cut, taken by itself, means very much at all.
That's why I do not put much stock in formulas.
Certain diamonds just have a look which makes you love them and some don't. This goes for diamonds of EVERY cut. Radiant, Marquise, Pear Shape, Oval 60/60 or H&A
I've seen diamonds cut to off proportions that still looked good. Of course many "off make" diamonds are ugly- but quite a few represent a great bargain for some dimaond buyers.

My experience buying from lists has not been all that good. I like to pick thru stones, not inventory numbers.
I know it can be done- IF you get liberal return privelidges.

Diamondsman- haven't you ever seen a diamond which had a great cert but a bad look?

 

[diamondsman]

Again I need to strees the point that we are talking about make only(or cut), No I have not seen a stone, that had ideal cut proprtions that looked bad. when I received it.Granted all th measurments and comments are disclosed.
Now fancy shapes are different.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

DM what would you think of these proportions?

1.00ct 6.50 x x6.50 x 3.96 D60.9%, T58%, girdle medium, very small culet and Ex, Ex with no comments?

(Edited to add wt and dimensions)

 

[Rhino]

David and Dman,




I understand where you guys are coming from. Most of the industry does precisely what you guys are doing and base their purchasing decisions generally with nothing more than a GIA Report and most of the time not don't even have the Sarin data. I take a radically different approach to the subject which affects my purchasing decisions. Thanks for sharing your input but I still find it impossible to make a cut judgment without more crucial info.




Rhino

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Rhino:
It really depends on what kind of diamond you're buying.
I can't speak for D'Man, and I really do not see things as he does regarding certs and diamonds.
Today if a cutter is going for H&A they're going to have the AGS Report and sarin in hand to prove the pedigree before they offer it for sale- they'll need this to justify the price.
If I was buying Hearts and Arrows- I might insist on Sarin reports and invest in a BScope etc.
I know GoodOldGold has an awesome reputation for these branded cuts. Your site is comprehensive and provides all the details a buyer could ask for- Both the site, and the company's reputation are outstanding.
If you are looking for anything other than an H&A the rules are different.
For example, in many cases a buyer familiar with grading and make gets the best deal if it's possible to buy the diamond before the cutter sends it to GIA- I get some awesome deals buying stones direct from cutters without even a GIA report. Most of the time, the stones that fall into this category are not the big dollar rocks. For example: When some factories cut one carat size diamonds- princess cuts and emerald cuts- they sell them as parcels ( groups of diamonds sold as a unit) prior to certification- even some stones in the D-E/VS family.
On the other hand, if the same cutter finishes a 2.00 E/VS they'll never sell prior to certification, unless the buyer agrees to pay the price of the grade the cutter claims the diamond is. Most buyers ( including me) would never pay an E/VS1 price without a certificate. I would pay a J/SI2 price without a cert in some cases.
Then there's all the diamonds that a sarin report really does not apply to. Such as fancy color diamonds. These are cut with different considerations. If a fancy vivid yellow doesn't have the table size considered ideal, but it looks amazing- it's more valuable than a vivid with less color, but more "ideal" proportions.
A sarin would also be of less value to most buyers who prefer the look and price of well cut "non- ideal" diamonds.
Remember, there's a lot of folks who just want a beautiful natural diamond and are not concerned with maximum light return.

 

[Rhino]

You are correct Dave. As a matter of fact with fancy colors the cutter is generally not looking at aspects of light return at all but what proportions will enhance the color of the diamond more than anything. BTW that is a beautiful shot of a fancy yellow in your avatar. Did that get a fancy *intense* rating? It's amazing the premium on the *fancy intense yellows* over just the "fancy yellows" huh?




Kind regards,


Rhino

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Thank you Rhino, our Avitar is actually a Fancy VIVID Yellow 3.50 ( talk about a premium, VIVD is thru the roof!)




I had manufactured a ring for this diamond using a pair of vivid yellows as side stones. Normally I flank the yellows with white diamonds- this was an experiment. Ultimately I had to break the stones out because it's quite a bit easier selling them one at a time ( quite an expensive experimant, heh, heh)




Here's a photo of my avitar stone in the ring we made ( and destroyed)

 

[Rhino]

Wow! What a honker Dave! You know, I have access to fancy colored stones but I find the demand isn't too high. Well at least not like what it is for white goods. Let me ask though, and your answer will help educate people on the forum on this subject as well...



If a person were looking to purchase a 1ct colored diamond what is the premium from




a. A fancy yellow?


b. A fancy intense yellow?


c. A fancy vivid yellow?


d. A fancy vivid intense (is there such)?




Peace,


Rhino

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Sure Rhino, that's a great question..


Here's some info on GIA's grades for natural yellow diamonds. Of course there can be many variables to alter these projections. For the purposes of this illustration, I'll use well made Radiant Yellows as compared to H&A RBC's:


Y-Z ( natural Light Yellow) I would say the price is about what you'd pay for something in a L/VS


Fancy Light Yellow- K/VS


Fancy Yellow- G/VS


Fancy Intense Yellow- D/VVS


Fancy Vivid- D/IF plus 25-40%


In Natural Yellow Diamonds, VIVID is the most expensive color






Again, this is oversimplifying it to the N'th degree- but this gives the idea.



As far as demand- I'm sure you see a great demand for the branded cuts you are known for. Just as we see huge demand for well cut, well priced fancy colored diamonds.


In both cases, I believed that the internet is the best solution for the shoppers. Remember, there is tremendous "infrastructure" neccesary to properly market such specialized diamonds. I don't see a large percentage of retailers carrying a lot of H&A's but I'm sure you sell them every day.


Same for us with yellows.


Retailers routinely tell me they can't sell natural yellow diamonds- yet we find a lot of folks that absolutely flip over them.




Just as you guys carry a wide selection, and provide complete, accurate info- so do we- that's why people find both of us!




Rock on with your bad self!

 

[diamondsman]

You guys are saying the same thing I have been saying, Most expert diamond wholsalers that have been in the business for many years, are buying their diamonds without these machines ,their trained eye is their machine, or the proprytions on the certificate tells them the cut of the stone.
I Can't imagine me going on a buying trip overseas, to buy a substential amount of diamonds like I do every other month,and having to examine every stone on a sarin machine or the other scope, It would take me a few weeks to purchase the amount that I buy.
And I do buy the larger stones without certificates and I have never been wrong on the cut.
It makes it so much easier to buy them when there is a certificate that gives you all the deatails.
I bet that if I put an ideal cut stone next to a h&A most people/dealers would not be able to tell the difference without looping it.
Oh by the way the stone you asked me to examine ,It would not fall into the catagory of an ideal make ideal make would have to be a table below 57%,(I have never seen a stone that has 6.50X6.50 in diameter by the way did it have any blue?), but it is very nice make, and I would defintely consider buying with these measurements from the cert.
would you ? if you have gotten a list of stones over your fax/email would you consider having the cutter send you this/similar stones to be examined?