Helping a friend select a diamond (time sensitive)

[SeekingClarity]

Hello PS Brain-trust!

It has been a while since I purchased an engagement ring for my DW, so please excuse the rust. Now I am helping a friend select a stone for an engagement ring, though he is under time pressure to select as stone ASAP (ideally this week) to ensure the ring can be completed in time. I tried to give him a general recap of everything I've absorbed from the forum and am now helping him make a selection. He is also hoping to buy the stone from a local jeweller (as he has picked one of their designs, though I think his girlfriend is after a MRB with a halo and pave band) and we are based in Sydney, Australia (in case you don't recall from all my previous questions!).

The jeweller initially suggested one stone, but after he asked for a few to compare, copies of their reports, all the measurements, H&A and ASET images they pulled the first stone and have instead offered up the following one. (I'm guessing the first one was a dud.)

GIA XXX 1.51 SI1 E
Table 57%
Depth 62.0%
Girdle medium to slightly thick 3.5%
Crown angle 36.0 deg
Pavilion angle 40.8 deg
7.33 x 7.37 x 4.56

It only faces up as 7.33 x 7.37, which I understand to be slightly below ideal (7.4mm?). And the crown angle may be a bit high?

I ran it through the HCA and it came back as a 3.5. It was my understanding that HCA should only be used to rule out a stone if it is above a 2 and not as the sole criteria with which to select a stone.


Unfortunately, the shop is not able to provide H&A or ASET images for any in-house / readily available diamonds. They said they will only provide an ASET for stones pulled in from the US, AFTER, he has committed to purchasing. This strikes me as bizarre, since the ASET would be one of the main criteria for purchasing a diamond.

This seems to be the only stone ~1.5 ct that is readily available to the shop, but I'm worried this might not be a cracker of a diamond (based on dimensions/HCA) and his girlfriend deserves one. If I'm not able to help him identify a better stone, and he is on the fence about importing a stone through the vendor, then he may end up going with this one in order to get the ring done. Am I right in ruling this one out based on the available info (HCA actually says "very good - worth buying if the price is right")? If you can't get an ASET or H&A image, how else would you recommend we evaluate potential stones? I'm hoping, some of you all have some advice!

(I do have an Idealscope that I bought from Holloway Diamonds, but am not too experienced in using one in person, as I have mostly looked at the images online. And the only stone available to check with the Idealscope is the one listed above.)

Hoping to get a couple more options for stones that might be available through the vendor from the US. I know for a fact that they will not insure a stone purchased elsewhere during the setting process, so he is likely stuck with this vendor.

Full report is below.


Cheers,
SC

 

[SimoneDi]

This is not a good diamond. The cut is definitely not optimal, but the main issue for me is the inclusion plot and clarity comments. This stone very likely has diminished transparency. It’s an absolute “no” for me.

Does your friend have to purchase from a B&M store? Is is open to shopping online? What’s his budget?

 

[OoohShiny]

+1 to looking online!

What are the colour/clarity/carat weight preferences of his intended?

 

[SeekingClarity]

This is not a good diamond. The cut is definitely not optimal, but the main issue for me is the inclusion plot and clarity comments. This stone very likely has diminished transparency. It’s an absolute “no” for me.

Does your friend have to purchase from a B&M store? Is is open to shopping online? What’s his budget?

This is not a good diamond. The cut is definitely not optimal, but the main issue for me is the inclusion plot and clarity comments. This stone very likely has diminished transparency. It’s an absolute “no” for me.

Does your friend have to purchase from a B&M store? Is is open to shopping online? What’s his budget?

This is not a good diamond. The cut is definitely not optimal, but the main issue for me is the inclusion plot and clarity comments. This stone very likely has diminished transparency. It’s an absolute “no” for me.

Does your friend have to purchase from a B&M store? Is is open to shopping online? What’s his budget?

Thanks, @SimoneDi , that is what I was afraid of. Can you elaborate on the inclusion plot/clarity comments? He was told the twinning wisps that appear in the center are towards the bottom of the pavilion, though he did not know what the grade-setting inclusion was. Is your concern the number of inclusions, type of inclusions or their location(s)?

Unfortunately, he does seem tied to buying it locally in Australia from a B&M store. I have espoused the greatness of super ideal diamonds from US vendors (I was very happy with Victor Canera) as well as other more affordable US-based PS-approved vendors, but I think it's beyond his comfort level. I don't have a specific budget from him, just diamond parameters that I'm working with.

There is one other jeweller that I have heard good things about nearby and am wondering if he might have any better performing stones. But aside from feedback directly from the experts here, it feels like I'm down to using the HCA, an Idealscope in person and approximating Tolkowsky's ideal dimensions.

Out of curiosity, I did compare the HCA score to that from the A Cut Above diamond linked below. The white flash one was a 0.9!

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4123874.htm

Cheers,
SC

 

[AV_]

D/E SI is a favorite place & I am reading the list of clarity characteristics as 'many small things' (OK). The HCA I am not too fond about - it is already a relatively lenient tool; I am even more so but without seeing the object I have nothing to go on at all - even if I believed the HCA saying that this stone is exceptionally fiery, if not exceptionally brilliant... (one cannot have both, but HCA <2 promisses balance; extremes are nice to me if cut helps & I feel that the modern rounds do not... )

 

[SeekingClarity]

+1 to looking online!

What are the colour/clarity/carat weight preferences of his intended?

The main criteria was 1.5 ct. As far as I understand, there is no apparent preference or cultural significance for colour or clarity, aside from near-colourless (up to G is what I suggested) and eye clean.

The challenge with purchasing online is the weak AUD, 10% GST on import, inability to have the diamond insured during setting (you cannot buy a loose diamond policy here, nor will anyone other Alistair Kelsey insure an outside stone from what I've seen) and his comfort with purchasing online (probably the main reason). Alistair was also a no, given he is not based locally (3 hours away).

Cheers,
SC

 

[SimoneDi]

Thanks, @SimoneDi , that is what I was afraid of. Can you elaborate on the inclusion plot/clarity comments? He was told the twinning wisps that appear in the center are towards the bottom of the pavilion, though he did not know what the grade-setting inclusion was. Is your concern the number of inclusions, type of inclusions or their location(s)?

Unfortunately, he does seem tied to buying it locally in Australia from a B&M store. I have espoused the greatness of super ideal diamonds from US vendors (I was very happy with Victor Canera) as well as other more affordable US-based PS-approved vendors, but I think it's beyond his comfort level. I don't have a specific budget from him, just diamond parameters that I'm working with.

There is one other jeweller that I have heard good things about nearby and am wondering if he might have any better performing stones. But aside from feedback directly from the experts here, it feels like I'm down to using the HCA, an Idealscope in person and approximating Tolkowsky's ideal dimensions.

Out of curiosity, I did compare the HCA score to that from the A Cut Above diamond linked below. The white flash one was a 0.9!

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4123874.htm

Cheers,
SC

The comments “additional twinning wisps, additional clouds, pinpoints and surface graining are now shown” in plain English means “cloudy and hazy stone”. The cluster of twinning wisps under the table will be visible up close. Additionally, the cut of the stone is not good, I would not purchase it.

I realize that this diamond is lower in color, but it is beautiful and the seller is in Australia, I believe. The latest asking price was $9k: https://www.pricescope.com/communit...plat-ring-1-484ct-bgd-size-6-25.234771/page-2

 

[SeekingClarity]

The comments “additional twinning wisps, additional clouds, pinpoints and surface graining are now shown” in plain English means “cloudy and hazy stone”. The cluster of twinning wisps under the table will be visible up close. Additionally, the cut of the stone is not good, I would not purchase it.

I realize that this diamond is lower in color, but it is beautiful and the seller is in Australia, I believe. The latest asking price was $9k: https://www.pricescope.com/communit...plat-ring-1-484ct-bgd-size-6-25.234771/page-2

Thanks for the explanation!

I didn't think it'd be possible to find a used super ideal in this part of the world! I'm not sure how he would feel about buying a ring and repurposing the diamond though, will have to check. The colour and options for setting an outside stone may be prohibitive though. Will check on the availability though.

 

[SeekingClarity]

D/E SI is a favorite place & I am reading the list of clarity characteristics as 'many small things' (OK). The HCA I am not too fond about - it is already a relatively lenient tool; I am even more so but without seeing the object I have nothing to go on at all - even if I believed the HCA saying that this stone is exceptionally fiery, if not exceptionally brilliant... (one cannot have both, but HCA <2 promisses balance; extremes are nice to me if cut helps & I feel that the modern rounds do not... )

Interesting, I don't recall seeing many folks favour D/E SI, though perhaps I missed it. Also really appreciate the insight into what the HCA is doing and what the trade-offs are between characteristics. This seems to confirm my suspicion that using HCA is a very limited approach, but perhaps better than nothing at all?

 

[lovedogs]

Definitely don't let him buy that stone!! He can do so much better

 

[lovedogs]

Interesting, I don't recall seeing many folks favour D/E SI, though perhaps I missed it. Also really appreciate the insight into what the HCA is doing and what the trade-offs are between characteristics. This seems to confirm my suspicion that using HCA is a very limited approach, but perhaps better than nothing at all?

The HCA is great at helping people reject stones that won't perform well. But of course for stones under 2 you have to do further research (the HCA isn't a selection tool).

 

[arkieb1]

The main criteria was 1.5 ct. As far as I understand, there is no apparent preference or cultural significance for colour or clarity, aside from near-colourless (up to G is what I suggested) and eye clean.

The challenge with purchasing online is the weak AUD, 10% GST on import, inability to have the diamond insured during setting (you cannot buy a loose diamond policy here, nor will anyone other Alistair Kelsey insure an outside stone from what I've seen) and his comfort with purchasing online (probably the main reason). Alistair was also a no, given he is not based locally (3 hours away).

Cheers,
SC

The Blue Nile link;

https://www.bluenile.com/au/diamonds/round-cut?track=DiaSearchRDmodrn

Or if that doesn't work go to Bluenile.com up the top right hand corner there should be a drop down bar that allows you to put in your location and that you want to view the diamonds in US dollars, Blue Nile is great they actually calculate the taxes and duties and do ALL the paperwork and have everything cleared through customs for you.

Even with our poop dollar if you sign in to get their discount codes it's still mostly cheaper than here and you can get a nice selection of triple ex stones, some they have in stock some they call in, if they are in stock it takes about a week if not then around two.

I thought Alistair was in Sydney is your friend in Sydney or somewhere else?

 

[AV_]

.

1.6 E SI1 HCA 0.7

https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD12327444

 

[SimoneDi]

Here is a gorgeous diamond: https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-de...DiamondDetails&action=newTab&catalogView=true

If investing in a colorless stone, I would not go with an SI clarity. Lower clarity in high colors in undesirable imo.

 

[AV_]

Interesting, I don't recall seeing many folks favour D/E SI, though perhaps I missed it. Also really appreciate the insight into what the HCA is doing and what the trade-offs are between characteristics. This seems to confirm my suspicion that using HCA is a very limited approach, but perhaps better than nothing at all?

I am not sure how big the camp of DE/SI is - my argument: colour is seen & clarity doesn't unless it does; I've got the idea from seeing D/E SI paired with D/E IF in some very good places. (@SimoneDi point taken!)

The story of 'Fire OR Brilliance' was much talked about when the HCA was new, but not much latelly... I don't think there ever were EXTREME examples shown - Forshame! The H&A range is the middle groud.

I wouldn't call the HCA limited, with a video & GIA paper, it seems quite enough. The H&A stones are better - perhaps not strykingly better compared to the nicest no name options, just OTT - like D/IF, but less shamelessly priced.

2p

 

[the_mother_thing]

Not sure where you are (OP) in relation to Holloway Diamonds, which is located in Australia. Might be worth checking with them; the owner - Garry - is a regular contributor/sponsor of PS as well as inventor of the HCA tool.

https://www.hollowaydiamonds.com.au/

 

[new-beginning]

the stone in the original post is a perfect example of why GIA excellent is not always 'really excellent!

 

[SeekingClarity]

Thank you all for the feedback! It seems the original stone is a no go. Two other potential stones have been identified and they actually have an ASET image to go along with them. Waiting on the full GIA report.

The first stone is GIA XXX 1.51 VS2 F and appears to be the better of the two and looks quite good to me, but curious to hear your thoughts.



The alternative is GIA XXX 1.50 VS2 F, but the ASET seems unbalanced to me.

The HCA is great at helping people reject stones that won't perform well. But of course for stones under 2 you have to do further research (the HCA isn't a selection tool).

Cheers, @lovedogs ! Trying my best to help him find a good alternative.

The Blue Nile link;

https://www.bluenile.com/au/diamonds/round-cut?track=DiaSearchRDmodrn

Or if that doesn't work go to Bluenile.com up the top right hand corner there should be a drop down bar that allows you to put in your location and that you want to view the diamonds in US dollars, Blue Nile is great they actually calculate the taxes and duties and do ALL the paperwork and have everything cleared through customs for you.

Even with our poop dollar if you sign in to get their discount codes it's still mostly cheaper than here and you can get a nice selection of triple ex stones, some they have in stock some they call in, if they are in stock it takes about a week if not then around two.

I thought Alistair was in Sydney is your friend in Sydney or somewhere else?

Alistair is technically in Jervis Bay, which is about a 3 hour drive from Sydney. He has a workshop at home and occasionally comes to Sydney to meet customers, but most interaction is by email/phone and he mails the final pieces out. It does represent a bit of a challenge for sizing, some anxiety with shipping and he doesn't have a show room to see his work in person. He is still my go to jeweller though!

I am not sure how big the camp of DE/SI is - my argument: colour is seen & clarity doesn't unless it does; I've got the idea from seeing D/E SI paired with D/E IF in some very good places. (@SimoneDi point taken!)

The story of 'Fire OR Brilliance' was much talked about when the HCA was new, but not much latelly... I don't think there ever were EXTREME examples shown - Forshame! The H&A range is the middle groud.

I wouldn't call the HCA limited, with a video & GIA paper, it seems quite enough. The H&A stones are better - perhaps not strykingly better compared to the nicest no name options, just OTT - like D/IF, but less shamelessly priced.

2p

That's a good point, I may check to see if they have video available. I hadn't thought to ask for that.

Not sure where you are (OP) in relation to Holloway Diamonds, which is located in Australia. Might be worth checking with them; the owner - Garry - is a regular contributor/sponsor of PS as well as inventor of the HCA tool.

https://www.hollowaydiamonds.com.au/

Garry is based in Melbourne, which is approximately the same distance as SF to LA. I always wanted to check his shop out, but it just wasn't super convenient. I have seen way more posts about him and his work on the Idealscope than I have about any diamonds or jewellery done by him. Will have to see if there is an appreciation thread...

Cheers,
SC

 

[lovedogs]

ABSOLUTELY no to the 2nd one. No no no. The ASET is horrible. But the first one is great (the F VS2).

 

[SeekingClarity]

ABSOLUTELY no to the 2nd one. No no no. The ASET is horrible. But the first one is great (the F VS2).

Cheers, @lovedogs ! Agreed, don't like the second but thought it was at least worth as a point of comparison . Waiting on the report and a video of the first one. Unfortunately, it cannot be called in unless a final decision is made. Hopefully the report and video validate the initial impression from the ASET.

Cheers,
SC

 

[SeekingClarity]

The report is in!



Clarity is better and there are fewer comments about additional inclusions that are not shown.

I also ran it through HCA and it scored a 1.9. For some reason, it wasn't able to pick up the measurements from the GIA report number though. Not sure what that indicates.

My only concern is the girdle is medium to slightly thick 4.0%. Is that thick enough to be an issue?

The video may take some additional time to source, so hopefully this confirms what the ASET has already shown.

Cheers,
SC

 

[AV_]

@SeekingClarity Does Garry's shop even list diamonds online? (this is what this forum talks about mostly, wthout such talk fodder, not much said about his business at all).

Since there is an ASET shot for the 1.51(looking good), I could live without the video. I would have through twice about a GIA 'Thick' girdle, but 4% is not somethign I'd complain about.

2c

 

[the_mother_thing]

I also ran it through HCA and it scored a 1.9. For some reason, it wasn't able to pick up the measurements from the GIA report number though. Not sure what that indicates.

I have run into this myself a few times where the HCA isn’t able to pull in a particular report’s data, and I have to manually enter the numbers. More often than not, I see a pattern with it happening to newly-issued reports (<1month), others (less frequently) have been random ‘older’ reports (>1 month). Not sure why. But I don’t think it indicates anything performance-wise with the diamond; more of a technical glitch type thing.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Just curious ... is there a reason you don’t invite your friend to join the forum & discussion going on to help him find a diamond, or at least read & learn for himself what to look for/out for? Is he too busy, not tech savvy, etc.?

 

[arkieb1]

Yes that's not a bad idea, invite the person to join in the discussion - I seriously had less drama buying diamonds from Blue Nile overseas than I have had trying to buy something well cut and well priced here, and that was a pair of triple ex cuts RBs for earrings for a friend of my husband for a gift a couple of months ago.

 

[SeekingClarity]

He shared a link for a video of the 1.51 stone. It was noted by the vendor that the inclusion on the pavilion is only one that is being reflected onto the other facets, not many. And the feather on the table is also not visible to the naked eye. It is exacerbated by the extreme magnification. A couple (few?) of the inclusions look quite dark, which is less than ideal, but perhaps not a concern at VS2?

https://d1s5m21q2l18ke.cloudfront.net/v360_mov/j2db11mhn15.HTML?MTU1NTI=

Thoughts? I'm a bit concerned about the inclusions, but it is hard for me to tell at such a large magnification if it will be an issue. At this point, he is leaning heavily towards this 1.51. But we will also go in to the shop tomorrow to see the first stone in person.

@SeekingClarity Does Garry's shop even list diamonds online? (this is what this forum talks about mostly, wthout such talk fodder, not much said about his business at all).

Since there is an ASET shot for the 1.51(looking good), I could live without the video. I would have through twice about a GIA 'Thick' girdle, but 4% is not somethign I'd complain about.

2c

That's a good point. I don't recall seeing his stock online. Great to know about the 4% too. I knew to avoid very thick, but the last "slightly thick" girdle was 3.6%.

I have run into this myself a few times where the HCA isn’t able to pull in a particular report’s data, and I have to manually enter the numbers. More often than not, I see a pattern with it happening to newly-issued reports (<1month), others (less frequently) have been random ‘older’ reports (>1 month). Not sure why. But I don’t think it indicates anything performance-wise with the diamond; more of a technical glitch type thing.

I didn't realise it was related to date of the report, but that certainly makes sense. A very new stone wouldn't necessarily show up in a database unless it was an automated process by GIA/AGS.

Just curious ... is there a reason you don’t invite your friend to join the forum & discussion going on to help him find a diamond, or at least read & learn for himself what to look for/out for? Is he too busy, not tech savvy, etc.?

Yes that's not a bad idea, invite the person to join in the discussion - I seriously had less drama buying diamonds from Blue Nile overseas than I have had trying to buy something well cut and well priced here, and that was a pair of triple ex cuts RBs for earrings for a friend of my husband for a gift a couple of months ago.

That's a great question! I have told him about the forum, but he seems both overwhelmed at the idea of such a wealth of knowledge to delve in to and also quite busy with a limited timeline. Personally, I loved (trying to) wrap my head around everything--the more information, the better. I also found it super easy to purchase from overseas and know of a couple others in Sydney that have followed suit with a US stone and Alistair. He has also put down a deposit with the vendor, so unfortunately he is tied to them now.

Cheers,
SC

 

[the_mother_thing]

@SeekingClarity To clarify, I don’t know for sure the lab report issue date has anything to do with why the specs may/may not load in the HCA; it was just something I seemed to note when I was plugging in numbers in recent months. I really don’t know the code behind the tool and how/where it pulls from, if it’s a database that is only refreshed once/month, daily, etc.

If your friend put a deposit down with a vendor, was that for a diamond, setting or both? Is it refundable? If he is truly tied to that vendor now, and is relying on that vendor bringing in diamonds for him to view/consider that you suggest he request, that may limit further what can be suggested on here. I’m not sure if just every jeweler can call just any diamond dealer and have a stone brought in, or if they - too - are tied to a small handful of diamond dealers.

 

[AV_]

@SeekingClarity ... the girdle is less than a fifth of a millimeter - whatever the wording on the report, this edge qualifies as a blade still; I take GIA's word that this is not too sharp.

 

[SeekingClarity]

I think the deposit was on a completed ring and so he is committed to that vendor now. I'm not sure what exactly the vendor can draw from, but seems to have in-store stock, virtual stock in AU and virtual stock overseas.

Primarily, I'm hoping you all can help vet the 1.51 based on the ASET, GIA report and video shared above! If there are no show stoppers, this might take the cake, though we will see what else is potentially available tomorrow.

My main concern was the black inclusion(s) and the feather on the table, but I wasn't sure how visible those will be IRL to the naked eye.

Here's the video again: https://d1s5m21q2l18ke.cloudfront.net/v360_mov/j2db11mhn15.HTML?MTU1NTI=

Cheers,
SC

 

[the_mother_thing]

I think the deposit was on a completed ring and so he is committed to that vendor now. I'm not sure what exactly the vendor can draw from, but seems to have in-store stock, virtual stock in AU and virtual stock overseas.

Primarily, I'm hoping you all can help vet the 1.51 based on the ASET, GIA report and video shared above! If there are no show stoppers, this might take the cake, though we will see what else is potentially available tomorrow.

My main concern was the black inclusion(s) and the feather on the table, but I wasn't sure how visible those will be IRL to the naked eye.

Here's the video again: https://d1s5m21q2l18ke.cloudfront.net/v360_mov/j2db11mhn15.HTML?MTU1NTI=

Cheers,
SC

I don’t believe those inclusions would be visible to the naked eye unless the naked eye was 2” above the diamond and had perfect vision. My personal test for “eye cleanliness” in videos/pics is to pull it up on my computer, then stand back a couple-to-several feet from the screen just before the point the diamond would reasonably be ‘sized’ for my finger. If I can’t see the inclusions, and everything else about it is good, then (personally) I consider it ‘eye clean’.