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Help with final decision, please:-)

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krusty900

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 6, 2018
Messages
72
So after a few months of being on pricescope and endless amounts of searching and research,missing a couple of stones on WF and also from CBI. I have resisted the temptation to up the size and budget and decrease colour and stick with a .90 carat stone which is what I originally planned, but should look similar in size to all the 1 carat rubbish in the stores here.

I am about to bite the bullet on this stone
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonddetail/HPD9693
And have it set in their New York tapered solitaire.

Anyone have any final thoughts,concerns,advice,encouragement before I do:-)?
 
This is definitely a beautiful stone! Stunning propotion, small table, relatively high crown. And HPD is a highly reputable vendor with lots of praises we could find in PS.
If you would like some more thoughts, I think there're still some options in the middle .80 range from WF offering slightly lower prices & some of them are with even higher colors (but ofcox, this depends on your personal preference) which worth a look.
However, the current HPD stone is still a sweet spot weighing just under 1 ct. Would love to know your final choice!
 
Beautiful stone with great proportions. :love:
 
:love: Beautiful diamond!

I don’t think I’d have any hesitation on any CBI from HPD. They’re all just stupendous from what CBI owners have attested on this forum. In fact, I don’t think I can recall a single ‘complaint’ any CBI owner has ever voiced on here.
 
Totally agree. Great option.
 
Lovely stone!
 
I know CBI does all that fancy 3D magic to make their diamonds do the enchanted fire dance but those proportions are just awesome!

Prepare for your socks to be knocked off! :cool2:
 
Thanks for the replies guys. Much appreciated.
@Double E I was look looking at those .8-.85 options from wf initially. Especially the 0.85 e si1 but the wisp was visible.i then went to spending more and looking at 1.20 carat j colour diamonds. Now gone back to my original thinking of a .90. Missed a .97 expert selection completely eye clean g which I am still annoyed about. I now really only see the .84g vs 2 g that’s takes my fancy. Which is a saves some coin from the cbi. Argh. I shouldn’t have asked
 
Thanks for the reply @Double E very hard to check a quality diamond where I am, so we actually don’t know My partner will be happy with anything sparkly and as big as possible. I started looking at 1 carat Js, but felt a bit uncomfortable with not being able to see them in person.
Argh,pricescope has been amazing, but also made things so much harder haha
 
krusty900 said:
So is something like this going to be essentially the same and save me some dollars...?
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4045348.htm
Please help
Click to expand...

Are you struggling with the price, size or beauty? To me it seems like you are uncertain of the price for the size. That said, here is a different way to look at it:
  • WF G VS2 = $4,559 wire / 0.841 carats = $5,421 per carat
  • CBI H VS1 = $6,340 wire / 0.90 carats = $7,044 per carat
  • $7,044 - $5,421 = $1,623 difference per carat
  • $1,623 / $5,421 = 0.29939, or 29.94% premium for CBI stone
This logic assumes that the upgrade to G from H equally offsets the value difference you lose from dropping from VS1 clarity down to VS2 clarity. To the layman it seems logical they would be of close/equal value; however, I haven't done analysis to confirm this to be true.

What this model fails to assume is the premium associated with magic carat weights. Doing a quick search on WF shows me that stones in the 0.90ct range and better are generally $6k+ for a G/H color and VS2/VS1 quality.

I was hoping to find either a H VS1 or G VS2 as close to the 0.90ct mark as possible so I could more equally compare. Here is what I found:

WF ACA 0.932 G VS2 @ $6,716 wire
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4049793.htm

WF ES 0.901 G VS1 @ $6,666 wire
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4045317.htm

WF ES 0.913 G VS2 @ $5,959 wire
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3876768.htm

Notice the last two stones are ES, or Expert Select, as they are near ACA misses. IMO, the ACA line is the closest equal comparison to the cut quality of a CBI stone. If you look at the images you can see the ES stones aren't slouches but I think we have to be fair in our analysis. I'd like to utilize the 0.901 for our comparison but I fear the price increase for VS1 quality is greater than the discount for ES vs ACA.

For that reason I will re-run the analysis using the one comparable I could find:
  • $6,716 / 0.932ct = $7,158 per carat
  • From earlier, HPD H VS1 = $7,044 per carat
  • WF $7,158 per carat - HPD $7,044 per carat = $114 per carat
  • Theoretically if WF had a 0.90ct G VS2 = $7,158 x 0.90ct = $6,442
Of course this data is somewhat flawed in the fact we only have ONE comparable. But it does indicate there is indeed a premium associated with hitting the 0.90ct mark. Also, one could assume a G VS2 is nearly a wash to an H VS1 of similar size. One element not shown or discussed above is that in searching stones it's pretty common to see CBI/HPD stones sell for a slight premium over WF ACA stones. Without further analysis I cannot mathematically prove it, but my gut tells me the G color upgrade is worth more than the VS1 clarity upgrade so we are getting somewhat skewed results above.

All the geek speak aside, it appears the CBI/HPD stone is a good and fair value. Initially you were just seeing an $1,800 difference but I hope you can understand how the weights and small size increases are playing into the overall equation.

Ideally, HPD would have a smaller 0.80-0.89ct stone in G/H and VS2/VS1 clarity that you could run a similar comparison and see if the same held true in reverse. Unfortunately I looked on their site and the time I wrote this, such a stone did not exist.


Double E said:
Around $1800 difference, um, it all depends on you again.
1) Color, can you differentiate H from G? Or are you actually fine even you can see the tint?
2) Diameter, about 0.2 mm difference between the 2, which you may find many PSers are able to notice it visibly.
Cheers~
Click to expand...

It's around the 0.20mm mark that most people begin to see a size difference; however, that size difference is rather minor. To convert to US measurements, 0.20mm is equal to about 1/128th of an inch.

IMO, while most can see a visual difference side by side, most would not be able to see the two stones separately and conclude "OMG, that other one was so much bigger/smaller". It's not a significant factor; however, the OP did indicated his girl's preference was a big, sparkly diamond. The 0.90ct is bigger, period.


krusty900 said:
Thanks for the reply @Double E very hard to check a quality diamond where I am, so we actually don’t know My partner will be happy with anything sparkly and as big as possible. I started looking at 1 carat Js, but felt a bit uncomfortable with not being able to see them in person.
Argh,pricescope has been amazing, but also made things so much harder haha
Click to expand...

Have you considered using HPD's "See It To Believe It" (SITBI) program? They send you a diamond to experience at your home, and you can conclude if the color, size, etc work for you. If you aren't satisfied, you send it back. Of course, you could do the same at WF and just use their return policy. In both cases, I am sure WF and HPD would charge your card while you have the stone and then reverse the charges when/if you elected to return/swap the stone.


rockysalamander said:
How about this one? https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4045671.htm; $6156, 1.058, I SI1, 6.54 mm

Worth asking for an ASET if you are looking to maximize size.
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-5357361 $5820, 1.07 I VVS2, 6.59 mm

I personally love HPD, but just throwing out options.
Click to expand...

The WF stone says "no longer available".
 
sledge said:
Are you struggling with the price, size or beauty? To me it seems like you are uncertain of the price for the size. That said, here is a different way to look at it:
  • WF G VS2 = $4,559 wire / 0.841 carats = $5,421 per carat
  • CBI H VS1 = $6,340 wire / 0.90 carats = $7,044 per carat
  • $7,044 - $5,421 = $1,623 difference per carat
  • $1,623 / $5,421 = 0.29939, or 29.94% premium for CBI stone
This logic assumes that the upgrade to G from H equally offsets the value difference you lose from dropping from VS1 clarity down to VS2 clarity. To the layman it seems logical they would be of close/equal value; however, I haven't done analysis to confirm this to be true.

What this model fails to assume is the premium associated with magic carat weights. Doing a quick search on WF shows me that stones in the 0.90ct range and better are generally $6k+ for a G/H color and VS2/VS1 quality.

I was hoping to find either a H VS1 or G VS2 as close to the 0.90ct mark as possible so I could more equally compare. Here is what I found:

WF ACA 0.932 G VS2 @ $6,716 wire
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4049793.htm

WF ES 0.901 G VS1 @ $6,666 wire
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4045317.htm

WF ES 0.913 G VS2 @ $5,959 wire
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3876768.htm

Notice the last two stones are ES, or Expert Select, as they are near ACA misses. IMO, the ACA line is the closest equal comparison to the cut quality of a CBI stone. If you look at the images you can see the ES stones aren't slouches but I think we have to be fair in our analysis. I'd like to utilize the 0.901 for our comparison but I fear the price increase for VS1 quality is greater than the discount for ES vs ACA.

For that reason I will re-run the analysis using the one comparable I could find:
  • $6,716 / 0.932ct = $7,158 per carat
  • From earlier, HPD H VS1 = $7,044 per carat
  • WF $7,158 per carat - HPD $7,044 per carat = $114 per carat
  • Theoretically if WF had a 0.90ct G VS2 = $7,158 x 0.90ct = $6,442
Of course this data is somewhat flawed in the fact we only have ONE comparable. But it does indicate there is indeed a premium associated with hitting the 0.90ct mark. Also, one could assume a G VS2 is nearly a wash to an H VS1 of similar size. One element not shown or discussed above is that in searching stones it's pretty common to see CBI/HPD stones sell for a slight premium over WF ACA stones. Without further analysis I cannot mathematically prove it, but my gut tells me the G color upgrade is worth more than the VS1 clarity upgrade so we are getting somewhat skewed results above.

All the geek speak aside, it appears the CBI/HPD stone is a good and fair value. Initially you were just seeing an $1,800 difference but I hope you can understand how the weights and small size increases are playing into the overall equation.

Ideally, HPD would have a smaller 0.80-0.89ct stone in G/H and VS2/VS1 clarity that you could run a similar comparison and see if the same held true in reverse. Unfortunately I looked on their site and the time I wrote this, such a stone did not exist.




It's around the 0.20mm mark that most people begin to see a size difference; however, that size difference is rather minor. To convert to US measurements, 0.20mm is equal to about 1/128th of an inch.

IMO, while most can see a visual difference side by side, most would not be able to see the two stones separately and conclude "OMG, that other one was so much bigger/smaller". It's not a significant factor; however, the OP did indicated his girl's preference was a big, sparkly diamond. The 0.90ct is bigger, period.




Have you considered using HPD's "See It To Believe It" (SITBI) program? They send you a diamond to experience at your home, and you can conclude if the color, size, etc work for you. If you aren't satisfied, you send it back. Of course, you could do the same at WF and just use their return policy. In both cases, I am sure WF and HPD would charge your card while you have the stone and then reverse the charges when/if you elected to return/swap the stone.




The WF stone says "no longer available".
Click to expand...

@sledge I always like reading your posts that analyze the value of stones. My brain thinks that way also. I like these two stones for comps on the CBI stone. Eliminates the guess work on color, size, and clarity influencing price as color is the same. We know on average (not always the case) a higher size and clarity stone is priced higher. Also, CBI diamonds usually have a premium associated with them in comparison to ACAs. IMO there is a good value in the CBI stone. It is unfair to compare a .9x stone to a .8x due to the price increase of the .9 magic number.

.911 H VS2 $6,226
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4027066.htm

.912 H VS2 $6,233
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4049799.htm
 
crbl999 said:
@sledge I always like reading your posts that analyze the value of stones. My brain thinks that way also. I like these two stones for comps on the CBI stone. Eliminates the guess work on color, size, and clarity influencing price as color is the same. We know on average (not always the case) a higher size and clarity stone is priced higher. Also, CBI diamonds usually have a premium associated with them in comparison to ACAs. IMO there is a good value in the CBI stone. It is unfair to compare a .9x stone to a .8x due to the price increase of the .9 magic number.

.911 H VS2 $6,226
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4027066.htm

.912 H VS2 $6,233
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4049799.htm
Click to expand...

Thank you for the kind words @crbl999. I agree the CBI stone is priced right and there really isn't an $1,800 premium when all factors are considered as we have pointed out.

As much as I can nerd out on the technicalities, there is a simple practical side too. That side says I get a color bump that myself or the SO may notice, the clarity likely isn't affected by any measurable means outside of a scope and the size difference is marginal. Oh and I get to pocket $1,800.

That side punches the nerd in the mouth and says we are getting the WF stone and going to Vegas baby! :mrgreen2::lol-2::cool2:
 
sledge said:
Thank you for the kind words @crbl999. I agree the CBI stone is priced right and there really isn't an $1,800 premium when all factors are considered as we have pointed out.

As much as I can nerd out on the technicalities, there is a simple practical side too. That side says I get a color bump that myself or the SO may notice, the clarity likely isn't affected by any measurable means outside of a scope and the size difference is marginal. Oh and I get to pocket $1,800.

That side punches the nerd in the mouth and says we are getting the WF stone and going to Vegas baby! :mrgreen2::lol-2::cool2:
Click to expand...

Yes most people who want a 1 ct stone but don't want to pay the premium look for .9x. Those who want a .9x stone but find a .8x+ for a reduced premium is a great value. The only time it doesn't make sense if you have the budget and money isn't a factor or if you want to hit a magic number.
 
crbl999 said:
Yes most people who want a 1 ct stone but don't want to pay the premium look for .9x. Those who want a .9x stone but find a .8x+ for a reduced premium is a great value. The only time it doesn't make sense if you have the budget and money isn't a factor or if you want to hit a magic number.
Click to expand...

I think this analysis misses that there is a relationship between the weight and face-up size (at least when well-cut). To me, I look for the face-up goal, less the weight. Cultural and social expectations along with hand-size can drive a specific face-up size desired.
 
@rockysalamander thanks for the options the wf I stone I enquired about but inclusions were visible up close.

Thanks @sledge now I’m more confused than ever Haha. The cbi pricing is bang on with similar stones from wf as far as I could tell.

There is definetly a saving to go with the .84 g.

My partner also loves the cbi New York tapered solitaire (may have some thing to do with the professional pictures) and we keep going back to it. So I think I am going to bite the bullet and get the Cbi h
 
Did you consider solasfera?
I will suggest to you to contact Matt at GOG. ask him to acquire solasferas round suit in your price range and have a video in all lighting conditions including hand shots on your finger size and then you make a judgement to go for or pass.
Solasferas are cut for performance, they have nice spread for their weight which will offset the 80'sh to 90'sh weight you are aiming for within your budget and you get to see the stones in the videos that will tell you really how they perform, you can request to include in the suit heart and arrows too within same range..!
 
rockysalamander said:
I think this analysis misses that there is a relationship between the weight and face-up size (at least when well-cut). To me, I look for the face-up goal, less the weight. Cultural and social expectations along with hand-size can drive a specific face-up size desired.
Click to expand...

Correct, except we're talking strictly about super ideals where a .90 will have a close face-up size if CBI, ACA, or BGD. We're not comparing a super ideal to a steep deep or 60/60 so weight to face up size remains somewhat proportionate. This is also why I don't include face up size when comparing super ideals and stick to weight to keep it simple especially when they are less than .1 ct in size difference.

For what it's worth, difference in size between the .9x CBI and .8x ACA is about .2 and would be detected by the naked eye if side by side as previously mentioned.
 
@Doc_1 sticking with cbi or wf as in Australia and feel most comfortable with them
 
krusty900 said:
@rockysalamander thanks for the options the wf I stone I enquired about but inclusions were visible up close.

Thanks @sledge now I’m more confused than ever Haha. The cbi pricing is bang on with similar stones from wf as far as I could tell.

There is definetly a saving to go with the .84 g.

My partner also loves the cbi New York tapered solitaire (may have some thing to do with the professional pictures) and we keep going back to it. So I think I am going to bite the bullet and get the Cbi h
Click to expand...

No biting the bullet on that CBI stone. It is amazing and competitively priced. Buy with confidence.
 
rockysalamander said:
I think this analysis misses that there is a relationship between the weight and face-up size (at least when well-cut). To me, I look for the face-up goal, less the weight. Cultural and social expectations along with hand-size can drive a specific face-up size desired.
Click to expand...

Completely agree @rockysalamander. Weight is just a poor way to measure diamond size, because depth and proportions/angles plays such a role in the whole equation. Comparing L&W dimensions is much smarter. At least IMO.

For US buyers, the challenge then becomes metric measurements as many US citizens don't understand MM dimensions. This is why I try to convert differences to inches for buyers when I'm helping.

In the case of the WF and HPD stones the OP listed, there is roughly a 0.20mm difference. I think most of us agree that is about where most human eyes begin to detect a size difference. Yes, there will always be outliers but just to be clear...the majority, not all.
  • 0.20mm = 0.0708 inches
  • 0.0708 inches = approx 1/128th inch
That is a rather small difference, and not one I personally think is significant. I think you'd see the size difference if comparing the two stones next to each other, but if you looked at them individually I'm not sure most people would notice. However, I could argue that if most people in the buyer's immediate social group have 6.50mm stones and you elect to purchase a 6mm stone vs a 6.20mm stone then the difference between a 6mm and 6.50mm will be noticeable enough someone will likely say something. So in that regards, the 6.20mm makes sense. Of course, that requires knowing the size of stones in your social group AND caring about that sort of thing.

Regardless of this, the analysis I did ignores size difference. That said....
  • HPD = 6.22 x 6.25mm, or 6.235mm average
  • WF = 6.03 x 6.06mm, or 6.045mm average
  • HPD = $6,340 wire / 6.235mm = $1,017 per MM
  • WF = $4,559 wire / 6.045mm = $754 per MM
  • $1,017 - $754 = $263 difference
  • $263 / $754 = 0.3488 or 34.88% price difference
  • 6.235mm - 6.045mm = 0.19mm difference
  • 0.19mm / 6.045mm = 0.03143 or 3.14% size difference
So in this example the HPD is roughly 35% more expensive to gain an additional 3% in size. All this assuming a G VS2 equally washes out a H VS1, and there is NO magic carat weight premium which we know is NOT true as illustrated in the initial analysis.

A few years back I was shopping for a new TV. I kept trying to snag a 70" for $999 on various sales (this was around Black Friday). But I was not dedicated and/or patient enough to stand in line and get those deals. So they would always sell out, etc before I could manage to get one.

I went in a store one day and basically negotiated a deal using a special I saw on Slickdeals and ended up buying an 80" for $1,500. This TV was originally around the $3,500 range but I was unwilling to pay that much for it as the size didn't mean that much to me. However, I was more than happy to pay the $500 premium and not have to fight crowds. Plus I probably got half a dozen high fives from complete strangers as I was walking out of the store.

My point is we all value size and cost different. The OP and his SO need to understand what is important to them and either be okay with spending the money for the size difference or not. I think the HPD stone is a really good deal as I proved in my last analysis but if size doesn't matter then that logic doesn't mean much compared to $1,800 in their pocket.


krusty900 said:
@rockysalamander thanks for the options the wf I stone I enquired about but inclusions were visible up close.

Thanks @sledge now I’m more confused than ever Haha. The cbi pricing is bang on with similar stones from wf as far as I could tell.

There is definetly a saving to go with the .84 g.

My partner also loves the cbi New York tapered solitaire (may have some thing to do with the professional pictures) and we keep going back to it. So I think I am going to bite the bullet and get the Cbi h
Click to expand...

I'm sorry I confused you. Without all the geek speak, the 0.84ct G VS2 appears so much cheaper because there is a (considerable) price premium associated with hitting the official 0.90ct mark.

As it stands the HPD stone is a great deal. You are just paying a premium to hit the magic 0.90ct weight is all. If you were buying a WF stone of the same size, you'd be paying nearly the same price.


crbl999 said:
No biting the bullet on that CBI stone. It is amazing and competitively priced. Buy with confidence.
Click to expand...

Totally agree. :cool2:
 
krusty900 said:
Thanks @sledge am going to go with the cbi, my partner wants the setting they offer.
Thanks again
Click to expand...

I am glad you got to a final decision...again, lol. ;)2 :cool2:

Seriously, the CBI/HPD stone is gorgeous and I don't think you will be disappointed in the least. Plus you get to work with Wink and his team which should be the icing on your cake.

Please post back pictures & videos of the final product. Can't wait to see it. =)2
 
Just did the transfer. Cheers for all the help. Will post back pictures Etc.
Argh,more nervous about this than the proposal haha.
 
krusty900 said:
Just did the transfer. Cheers for all the help. Will post back pictures Etc.
Argh,more nervous about this than the proposal haha.
Click to expand...
Well done ;)) you are buying one of the best cut diamond on earth.
 
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