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Help with Diamond Selection

Anne916

Anne916

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 15, 2018
Messages
10
FBE842E4-3A56-4453-BC0E-21817C83793C.png Hi! I’m new here but friends have been suggesting I visit Pricescope for many years now. I thought I knew a lot about diamonds via GIA certificates but now I’m discovering tables and depths and crowns and pavilions. It’s a bit overwhelming!

So I thought I’d get your expert advice. I’m looking to upgrade my engagement ring to this stone. Any thoughts or opinions on it? I’m told it’s extremely eye clean and more like an SI1. Haven’t seen the rock in person yet. How do I make sure I’m not overpaying for the diamond?Thanks in advance!
 
IMO the stone is cut too deep at 62.7%.
 
Using the HCA on the numbers for your stone, it comes up as 3.6. I’d pass on this one, to be honest.

I had a quick look with the Pricescope search tool above, there are a couple of 1.4ct G Si2 stones retailing for about $8500 which gives you a ball park on pricing.
 
This is not a good stone. The diamond doesn’t have complimentary pavilion and crown angles, it is too deep at 62.7, which means that you are losing some diameter for the weight and it has the potential for being a cloudy stone (clarity comment - additional clouds not shown).

Who is your original vendor? Please give us your budget and we can find to you an alternative diamond. This one would be a pass for me.
 
1C689DF7-93FA-44B8-A181-4FEBB876EA91.jpeg BC26827B-5674-4227-BF7B-499C1722AC25.jpeg Thanks for the feedback!
We originally bought our ring in San Francisco at a local jewelry store, thinking we could upgrade in a few years (my current ring is probably way worse. See pics)

Fast forward 6 years later and we are looking to upgrade and find out due to the owner’s retirement and subsequent passing, the store has closed. However, the daughter has opened a store of her own and has graciously been willing to give me a partial credit on the original ring. (Platinum setting, paid about $5500 total. She says we paid $4000 for the diamond and she’s giving us a credit of $3700)

So because this is an upgrade, I feel like we need to stick with her because she’s giving us more value for the original diamond than we could get elsewhere, right?

For the new diamond, she has it for $7900 + CA tax. So after the credit of $3700, we’d be paying around $4500.

I kinda cringe that my total ring price for a platinum G, 1.37ct, SI2 (but supposedly very eye clean and lots of fire) will equal to us paying $10K. But at this point, what can we do if we’re locked in to this vendor?

Any thoughts? Thanks again!!
(GIA certs are my original purchase)
 
@Anne916 your current stone is a steep deep (high crown and pavilion angle combo), but the new one is not better.

The daughter of the original owner is giving you a pretty decent trade in value considering the original price.

May I ask why you are making the jump from I color to G color? If you want to upgrade the color, then H might be a good compromise to allow you to go up and size and maybe slightly in clarity.

Does she have access to other stones? Can she call in a stone?

You need to find a diamond with the below proportions in order to ensure a well-performing stones. You can give the proportions to the jeweler and have her look for a diamond for you:
Table: 53-58
Depth: 60-62.4
Crown angle: 34-35.0 (up to 35.5 crown angle can sometimes work with a 40.6 pav angle)
Pavilion angle: 40.6-40.9 (sometimes 41.0 if the crown angle is close to 34)
 
First stone is too deep @ 62.7%. Crown is too steep at 36. Pavilion value of 40.8 is okay, but not complimentary or good with that 36 crown. Keep in mind, you want the crown & pavilion to play nicely with each other so you get the most sparkle.

Also, when a diamond is too deep or shallow it leaks light which makes it sparkle less.

Cut_Styles.gif


Your original stone is not one we would typically recommend either. Depth is border line at 62.4%. We'd prefer to have a table 54-57, but 58 is close. But you are combining a steep crown with a steep pavilion angle which isn't the most complimentary.

To get the most fire/sparkle from you stone, you want to stick to the following when shopping for GIA certified stones:
  • Table = 54-57%
  • Depth = 60-62.4%
  • Crown Angle = 34-35 degrees (maybe 35.5, if paired with 40.6 pavilion)
  • Pavilion Angle = 40.6-40.9 degrees (maybe 41 if paired with 34 crown)
  • Lower Girdle Facets (LGF) = 75-80 (may prefer 75 as the arrows will be more "fat")
  • HCA score of 1-2
 
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@sledge a kind reminder to please be a bit more gentle when it comes to commenting on people’s diamonds. OP posted a certificate of her current diamond.
 
SimoneDi said:
@sledge a kind reminder to please be a bit more gentle when it comes to commenting on people’s diamonds. OP posted a certificate of her current diamond.
Click to expand...

I see we posted on top of each other. Sorry for some of the duplicate information.

Also, I wasn't trying to be rude or condemning in my statements. While the OP's current stone may not be one we would normally recommend, it doesn't mean it was a bad choice. I was lucky to have found this forum prior to purchasing. Many folks didn't have that luxury and bought stones that looked good to them based on their inexperience.

Inexperience isn't bad, unless you don't understand where you stand, how to improve and actually avoid the same mistakes a second time. That said, I truly hope my comments are taken in a constructive manner, as they were not meant with negative connotation.

That said, I did a quick search using the PS search function to locate diamonds in the $8k or less range. I haven't started reviewing angles, etc but it does show you have some options available. FYI, I limited clarity to SI1 or above as I'm not a huge fan of SI2 stones. More times than not, SI2's are gambles especially when searching virtual inventory. That said, I've seen some awesome eye clean SI2's so I do know they exist. It just makes me nervous is all, unless I can see them.

https://www.pricescope.com/diamonds...=1&pageview=24&adv=true&days=100&cert_number=
 
Thanks for the feedback. Thanks SimoneDi for the “kind reminder.” I hope people don’t see my ring and think “yuck.” :P

I’m learning so much. So when I see a diamond, I should be looking at the cert and spending more time on angles and percentages than the words “excellent”, looking for inclusions and seeing how much a diamond sparkles? What if I find a rock that meets some of the parameters you specified but not all?

My I colored diamond seemed yellow, especially when put side by side with a few friend’s rings, so I figured I’d go up to a G, just to make sure I saw less yellow. But maybe I should ask to see some H’s too? I’m just trying to avoid seeing the yellow and figured H might be too close to I.

The daughter did have another G stone, 1.38 ct, VS1 for around $10k but I just didn’t feel comfortable paying so much and wearing so much money on my finger.

What if the diamond looks fabulous in person, despite being cut too deep? I guess my concern is, what if I find a diamond that meets all the percentages in the parameters but doesn’t sparkle or look as great as the “yuck” one? Or is it a guarantee that if a diamond has those percentages, it is bound to sparkle more?

I mean, the percentages only seem to be off by a tiny percentage, right? How difficult/easy will it be for me to give those numbers to her and have her find a diamond with those numbers? Is it pretty easy to find one so ideal or very rare?

Sorry for all the questions!! Thanks for all the help. I’m slowly learning....
 
@Anne916 I have edited my original post and removed the reference to "yuck". I apologize for being too harsh and using those terms.

To answer your first question, definitely put more time and effort into evaluating angles & percentages instead of the term "excellent". GIA uses that term and the reality is that many stones with an "excellent" rating really isn't that excellent at all. If you trust the angles, they will lead you the right way to something that is visually pleasing to the eye and that will look great when you confirm the performance images (ASET and/or idealscope).

So when shopping for GIA stones, this is what I would recommend:
  1. Use the angles both myself and @SimoneDi gave you to short list.
  2. Post up for review here to PS.
  3. Run the values through HCA to ensure they are less than 2, and ideally 1-2.
  4. At this point, you can ask the vendor if they have ASET or idealscope images. Many local shops don't and even shopping through virtual inventory (usually overseas supplier making their diamond available to many local retailers) doesn't always allow you to obtain an ASET or Idealscope image prior to purchasing. However, it's worth the ask just to confirm.
  5. If you can get the image, post for PS members to help you review and if all checks out then proceed with getting the stone. If not, reject and start over.
  6. If no images are available, then you have to make a gut call (I'm sure we will chime in with an opinion) and proceed to purchase and trust your eyes. If you want a little more reassurance, you can buy a handheld ASET scope for about $40 shipped and be able to test the diamond when it arrives (or really any other local diamonds that may not have their own scope).
https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca

Remember, that although the values may seem like a small difference to you, they can make a big impact on the actual light performance (fire/sparkle). For instance a 35/40.6 combo works nicely. A 35.5/41 combo may work but won't do so as nicely as the 35/40.6.

You are correct in the fact that whatever stone you chose, it must look good to your eyes! That is what makes a diamond truly special - you see the beauty every time you look at it. That said, I would caution you that by your own admission, you are still learning about diamonds and maybe aren't sure what to look for so you can be the best critic.

Before I knew anything about diamonds I could look at stones and determine some looked better than others, but I didn't know why so I couldn't verbalize it. That is a rough way to do it though. What if you pick the most sparkly diamond in the store, but it's a level 5 (on a scale of 1-10). You did great with the choices provided, but you didn't really know what a 10 looks like or there was better options either. We are trying to help you find a 10 for all practical purposes.

Lastly, you asked about color. Every person is different is the simple answer. Some people see the slightest shades of color variance. Others can't tell a D from a J. Your sensitivity is what matters in this game! Closely related is color tolerance, meaning you can be sensitive but not bothered, or even appreciate, a warmer shade. Many Asians prefer D-F colors and high clarity for cultural reasons. Lots of things come into play on color is my point. Knowing where you stand will help make picking the right color easier.

Just remember, diamonds are a zero sum game meaning if you have a set budget then as you increase one of the C's then another has to adjust down. So increasing color may result in less carat weight (since you are already looking at lower SI1 and SI2 clarity stones -- not that there is anything wrong with that -- in fact, eye clean SI1 stones are the probably the best bang for the buck).

Also when looking at color, know that as you go down the color scale not only do stones have more tint to them, but they also have more variance in the color grade. For instance, few diamonds will make a D color grade. More diamonds will make an H color grade and because color grading is somewhat subjective, you may end up with a high H (meaning almost G) or a low H (meaning almost I). When you drop down to an I color, maybe you have 3 variances - high, medium and low. As you slide down the scale those variances grow.

I know this is a lot of information, but I hope it helps in some positive manner.
 
One thing I failed to mention in my previous novel, lol, is lighting. When you go to a jewelry store, you will notice they have lighting out the ying yang. This is by pure design. Certain lighting can make even the biggest dud look like a stud under jewelry store lighting. Also, depending on the temperature rating of the lights the utilize, it can make yellow stones look more white.

If you are getting serious about a stone from the local store, I encourage you to take outside or into an office that only has normal lighting, etc to replicate your real world environment. Essentially you want to see how the stone sparkles when it's not in the most perfect lighting environment possible, as our real world rarely has us standing under jewelry lighting.
 
OP, I have embedded my comments below.

Anne916 said:
Thanks for the feedback. Thanks SimoneDi for the “kind reminder.” I hope people don’t see my ring and think “yuck.” :razz:

I don’t think that anyone thinks that OP, so no worries. PSers are a very picky bunch and very passionate when it comes to diamonds, that’s all.

I’m learning so much. So when I see a diamond, I should be looking at the cert and spending more time on angles and percentages than the words “excellent”, looking for inclusions and seeing how much a diamond sparkles? What if I find a rock that meets some of the parameters you specified but not all?

That is correct, GIA XXX is a very broad range. There are some good diamonds and some not so great ones. Using the little cheat sheet I provided earlier will help you evaluate diamonds and exclude those that don’t meet the criteria. The problem with examining diamonds in person, especially as someone who doesn’t have a trained eye, will not do much. It is why, we usually recommend shopping online where you can see magnified images and videos of the diamonds and in some cases ASET and IS images which can really tell how a diamond “performs” or how much it sparkles. Nonetheless, you have a jeweler that is willing to take in your old diamond as a trade, so I completely understand wanting to stay with said jeweler. We just need to help you find a good diamond from her shop.

My I colored diamond seemed yellow, especially when put side by side with a few friend’s rings, so I figured I’d go up to a G, just to make sure I saw less yellow. But maybe I should ask to see some H’s too? I’m just trying to avoid seeing the yellow and figured H might be too close to I.

Alright, one thing about steep/deep diamonds as we call them is that they tend to “trap” color in. Which I why I believe that the diamond appeared tinted to you. A better cut stone will show less color face up. My advice will be to be open to H color as well. My very first diamond was an H and it was a very white facing stone and even very “white” in its profile. But there is nothing wrong with aiming for G color as long as it is a good stone and the budget allows.

The daughter did have another G stone, 1.38 ct, VS1 for around $10k but I just didn’t feel comfortable paying so much and wearing so much money on my finger.

How much you feel comfortable spending it entirely up to you. Perhaps, ask for the GIA # on that stone as well, so we can at least take a look how well cut it is. VS1 clarity will bring the price up significantly. VS2-SI1 (eye-clean) is my preferred clarity range. I have had multiple SI2 as well, but once you get to the SI2 level many stones are not eye-clean ir can be cloudy, depending on the inclusion type.

What if the diamond looks fabulous in person, despite being cut too deep? I guess my concern is, what if I find a diamond that meets all the percentages in the parameters but doesn’t sparkle or look as great as the “yuck” one? Or is it a guarantee that if a diamond has those percentages, it is bound to sparkle more?

Correct, it is guaranteed that a diamond win the recommended cut proportions will sparkle more. You might not be able to see it right away, but I promise you, with time, it will be apparent.

I mean, the percentages only seem to be off by a tiny percentage, right? How difficult/easy will it be for me to give those numbers to her and have her find a diamond with those numbers? Is it pretty easy to find one so ideal or very rare?

When it comes to diamond proportions, a little is a lot. Sometimes “a little” can be ok. For example, I am ok with stones that are 33/41 crowns and pavilion angle combos. They will flavour more white light return, but they can still be beautiful diamond. However, many other combos are an absolute no.
To be safe, please stick with the recommended proportions.

Can you please ask the jeweler if she can sources other diamonds. For example, if we find you one from the virtual inventory, can she bring it in go viewing?

Sorry for all the questions!! Thanks for all the help. I’m slowly learning....
Click to expand...
 
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@sledge Thank you so much for taking the time to explain all that!

And thank you @SimoneDi !!!

You both are awesome!!

It’s crazy that all this time I just figured GIA, XXX and how it looked in person was pretty much all I had to be concerned about. (I was all proud of myself for knowing about GIA too! Guess I had a lot of learning to do).

All these percentages are fascinating. Guess it would make sense from a math (or science?) perspective that certain ratios would be better than others.

I have emailed the jeweler and asked her to send me her inventory of 1.3-1.5 ct, H color or higher, SI2 or higher stones with GIA certificates and prices, just so I can see what is available when I see her on Thursday 9/20. Hopefully she’ll get back to me shortly and you’ll all be able to give me feedback on the best choice in the lot.

That’s interesting what you said about Asian cultures preferring higher colors and clarity. Being Asian myself, maybe that’s why my mother in law didn’t seem too excited when she saw our diamond initially, lol. Maybe the I color and the slightly visible inclusion has something to do with that! Hopefully a G color and eye clean (and more sparkly with the percentages you’ve listed) will wow her on our next purchase. I just can’t get myself to pay so much more for D-F and high clarity if it means sacrificing carat size too. :razz:

If I get an ASET scope, what am I looking for? Is that the one where people take pictures of the arrows etc? Am I looking for symmetry?

Thanks again!!
 
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@SimoneDi Pretty rock! What does it mean to source the diamond? Can a jeweler get it at a different price than what’s listed?
 
Anne916 said:
@SimoneDi Pretty rock! What does it mean to source the diamond? Can a jeweler get it at a different price than what’s listed?
Click to expand...

I don’t know what price they can get it at, but BN and many other retailers list “virtual inventory” stones, meaning, any jeweler can source them from the wholesaler.

Please note that well cut stones, even though might seem to have similar specs, will be more expensive than a poorly cut diamond.
 
Anne916 said:
@SimoneDi Pretty rock! What does it mean to source the diamond? Can a jeweler get it at a different price than what’s listed?
Click to expand...

If I understand things correctly, nearly all the (legitimate) stones available in the world are listed on Rapaport, an industry-only listing platform, which monitors pricing generally and helps trade sellers / trade buyers know at what price they should be selling / buying.

It means that buyers can contact sellers and call stones in from wherever they are located in the world, either as cash-up-front purchases for stock or on 'sale or return' principles.

As demanding buyers, though, we should be aware there are costs associated with shipping rocks around the world safely - I can't remember typical costs now but I know Wink on here has previously given examples. (I have $100 per stone in my head...) Sometimes these costs are built into a store's sale price to the customer, sometimes they pass the cost on up-front - you should ask the question to see if you'd need to pay the fees to get a stone brought in for you.

Your jeweller should have full access to this platform (known as 'Rap' for short, I believe?) but you also have access to (some? all??) stones listed on this platform in a way - the PS search tool at the top of the forum lists huge numbers of stones held by or available through Ps-recommended vendors, so you can identify both the range of potential prices you could expect to pay, and also individual stones you are interested in (that score under 2.0 on the HCA tool in the Tools tab at the top of the forum ;) ) and which you would like brought in to your local jeweller :)

Your jeweller's retail prices will of course have a profit margin built-in on top of the Rap prices, but the knowledge gained using the above can help you make sure that margin is not unreasonably high ;))
 
SimoneDi said:
OP, here is an example of a well cut diamond: https://www.bluenile.com/build-your...DiamondDetails&action=newTab&catalogView=true

If the jeweler doesn’t have any with the specified cut proportions, I would ask her to try to source that one or one alike.
Click to expand...

Hey @Anne916, if you consider this stone I would have the supplier verify it's not cloudy or hazy.

I say this because you have several big clouds covering about half of the table. Also when looking at the cert, you will see Clouds are listed first, or on top. This is important as GIA lists the worst inclusions first. The very first one is known as the grade setting inclusion.

So in this case, while this particular stone has other inclusion types, the grade setting inclusion is a cloud.

Now look to the left of the certificate in the notes section, and you will notice it says, "additional clouds not shown".

This is a very dangerous combo on SI1 and even VS2 stones. It's not a guaranteed death sentence but it should raise a red flag for you to verify/confirm before purchasing.
 
Hi again! Okay, I've spent several days/weeks searching for the perfect diamond and I'm back with 3 to get your opinions on. They're all roughly 1.3 G VS1 and score less than 2 on HCA.

Could you let me know if there are any to eliminate or favor?
Thanks in advance! @sledge @SimoneDi and anyone else who'd like to chime in! :)

IMG_3218.jpg
1.32 G, VS1, Faint flor.
55% table, 62.5% depth, 35, 40.6 crown/pavilion


IMG_3217.jpg
1.33 G VS1, No flor
57% table, 61.6% depth, 35, 40.8 crown/pavilion


IMG_3216.jpg

1.31 G VS1 No flor
57% table, 61.9% depth, 36, 40.6 crown/pavilion
 
Among the three, my choice would be diamond #2, if not then diamond #1. I would pass on #3
 
Nice choices :)

I don't think there would be much issue with the 36 crown of no.3 if the pavilion angles work with it (which the HCA score suggests it does) and it may well increase the opportunity for fire :)

No.1 has a small table and a crown in the upper end of the PS-approved range, which will help increase fire, but the 80% LGFs will reduce the size of the facet reflections and perhaps offset this.

That said, I would be inclined towards no.2 as well - largest diameter, crown is still at the high end of the range, the table is still pretty small at 57, and the 75% LGFs will also increase the opportunity for coloured fire even more (as compared to the skinnier arrows of the 80% LGF stones).

I would therefore also personally go with 2, 1, 3, in that order!
 
My 2 cents is I'd reject #3. GIA rounds and averages funny. The 36 crown could get worse instead of better because of such. Meaning the HCA may be popping a false positive. I'm not sure if it has a tolerance built in to run a worst/best/as reported scenario to account for said funky rounding and averaging on the angles or it just assumes 36/40.6 is truth.

Are you able to get any advanced images such as an ASET? Also any pics or videos?

I like the table, crown and pavilion best on #1. The depth is borderline at 62.5 and I too prefer 75 LGF but don't think it's an eliminate situation because of the LGF. With GIA, a reported 75 LGF can actually be 73-77. A reported 80 LGF can be anywhere from 78-82. If this stone has an actual 78 it's not an issue IMO but if an actual of 82 I dislike.

With stone #2 I get nervous on a high crown and high pavilion stone when a non-super ideal. It could very well be great and check out okay. I'd want an ASET to confirm. Otherwise the depth and LGF looks good. 57 table is acceptable although I prefer smaller myself. If all else checked the table is NOT reason for rejection .
 
I like #2 it has nice and balanced proportions and obviously great colour and clarity. 1 is too deep for my liking and 3.. while it has complimentary angles, it it outside of the preferred “safe” range. #2 is a solid choice.
 
Got my ring over the weekend and figured I'd update here. Thanks for all your help!
So to review, I traded in my 1 carat I, SI2 diamond for a 1.3 G, VS1 diamond. Wasn't looking specifically for a VS1 but all the VS2s and SI1s that were available for us to look at were either located in another country or didn't look too great.

So for this purchase, we ended up going with choice #1, even though I was hoping to do #2. But our jeweler said that #2 and #3 were located in India. I think they're still available though, in case anyone wants to jump on #2.

https://www.adiamor.com/Diamonds/1.33-ct-G-VS1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond/D42133440
https://www.adiamor.com/Diamonds/1.31-ct-G-VS1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond/D42130311

New diamond is super sparkly though DSS set in pretty quickly. *sigh* But I think I can go for a few more years before I bug my husband for another upgrade. So much money for such a little object!

But just thought I'd share some pics (since I myself love to see people's finished products) and thank those of you who chimed in, like @sledge @SimoneDi @Rpb @OoohShiny. Not sure why the pics look so bad on the iPhone, but this is the best I can do for now. So much better looking in person!

Thanks for teaching me all about angles and percentages these past few months. :)

IMG_3377.jpg IMG_3425.jpg IMG_3413.jpg
 
Very beautiful, stunning ring @Anne916 , some hand shots with reference to your finger size would help.
 
On my right hand because my left ring finger is swollen for some reason!

48A0C4FD-8F56-4EEB-87EF-37D5C67B57D5.pngd Becca
 
Pretty! Blingy!!!
 
Really beautiful ring. In know you ment)?ioned DSS has already hit :lol: but have you been able to appreciate the size, clarity and/or color upgrade (before it became too small :whistle::lol:)?

Did you use your existing settng? And do you have pictures of your previous ring ?
 
Thanks @ringo865. I used my original setting because the new diamond cost way more than I had planned. I had wanted something bigger than 1 carat and higher than I color and SI2. Found a ton of diamonds that met those qualifications but many scored poorly on the HCA or were located in India, so our jeweler wasn't able to get them in for viewing.

As someone had suggested in the thread above, our jeweler was able to "source" a diamond that I saw on Blue Nile, but then you're kind of locked in for the $100 they charge for shipping. So it came down to this 1.3 stone or a pretty 1.4 G stone that our jeweler had for the same price, but scored poorly on HCA. I knew after reading Pricescope forums that I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I knew I deliberately bought a diamond that scored over 3 on the HCA (despite it being incredibly sparkly too). So I opted for the 1.3.

Took the ring home and started thinking, Gees, that was a lot of money to pay for just a small increase from 1.0 to 1.3! You'd think that after spending so much money, it'd be hugely different, right? So now I'm thinking maybe 1.5-1.7 would work better, since my fingers are 6.5-7. Or is it just my greed or, in the words of my mom, vanity?! :P

But what's done is done and I can't do anything about the diamond right now so maybe I'll focus on losing some of the weight I've gained after getting married and then maybe my fingers will shrink back to their normal size and the diamond will automatically look huge again! :)
 
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