Help needed deciding between WF and CBI

[skypie]

If you are worried about being disappointed due to the heightened expectations due to the "secret sauce" that you have heard about regarding CBIs, may I suggest you ask for a "blind" viewing in that you see a variety of diamonds...CBIs, ACAs, unbranded stones without being told which ones are which brand?

That way you will pick the diamond that looks best to you, rather than being (unconsciously) swayed by the "secret sauce" others have told you about.

I remain curious to hear an explanation for why CBIs are different from other stones with the same cut, clarity and color though. I.e. what is the secret sauce that many seem to believe exists?

Thank you erislynn for your input. I appreciate it. I understand it is hard for one to say she/he thinks one is better, not expecting to be "fired" on.

Thank you and everyone else here suggested that I should see the diamonds in person. I know WF ACA will be very very very brilliant. I feel I don't need to see them in person. I am sold with all the testimony from PS.

However with CBI, from what I read, it sounds like it has something extra special. I am just afraid after I pay the price premium and go down the CBI road, when I received the diamond, I will be disappointed. because it is so hyped up.

So I am going to see some tomorrow in person. Melissa has very graciously setup both the K and an alternative J for me to look at the Green Lake store in Bellevue. I am trying to set my expectation low.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Does anyone know, are CBI like Eightstar brand? I remember many appraisers and dealers liked them until they had a downturn in favour.

I think the main reason for their down fall is b/c of their high premium. I'd like 8* but I'm not gonna pay a 20% premium over a ACA.

8* on my pinky...

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/i-have-an-8-on-my-pinky.39400/

 

[pyramid]

No, well I don't know in the real world maybe it was the price. On pricescope it was because of the new GIA grading system, they were graded as heavily painted diamonds. Whiteflash even had a version, their version 2, which was like them but not the same, they stopped that brand after the carry on with GIA as no one would buy. Even so, some of the experts, I mean appraisers and jewellers who had worked in the field for years, still maintained they were the best looking diamond they had seen. There was a 10 carat which toured around America for the Eightstar name.

 

[pyramid]

I am no expert of course. CBI is not like Eightstar as the idealscope of them were all red and black with no white at all. I see CBI do have the star facets showing in white. Just wondered if it was the same sort of thing, maybe something totally different and a secret sauce so we won't find out.

 

[pyramid]

Love your photo DF, they definitely seemed to look bigger to me, with the edge to edge thing going on, the facets were cut the opposite way to and you could see it on the girdle. Where you see a larger diamond outline shape on the girdle and then a smaller one at the bezel and half facets, well on Eightstar it was the opposite way around and the half facets sloped the opposite way around.

 

[pyramid]

If I was buying now and had the money, I would still buy one of them. They were very expensive though compared with the vendors on here and you could only buy from certain vendors in person, not online. I believe GoodoldGold was one of them and possible Wink was too.

 

[pyramid]

Just remembered that apparently they gave broader flashes of the edges too which meant they lit up across the room, whereas a normal cut had more off/on scintillation we were told. The Eight stars had a special viewer called a Firescope and each one took lots and lots of hours to cut. Can tell I was fascinated by them.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Thank you and everyone else here suggested that I should see the diamonds in person. I know WF ACA will be very very very brilliant. I feel I don't need to see them in person. I am sold with all the testimony from PS.

However with CBI, from what I read, it sounds like it has something extra special. I am just afraid after I pay the price premium and go down the CBI road, when I received the diamond, I will be disappointed. because it is so hyped up.

So I am going to see some tomorrow in person. Melissa has very graciously setup both the K and an alternative J for me to look at the Green Lake store in Bellevue. I am trying to set my expectation low.

You certainly should have very high expectations! I think we've said many times that CBI and WF have some of the top ideal cut rounds in the world. But as I have also said, people may have preferences for higher or lower crown angle, smaller or larger table, smaller or larger lower girdle facets, etc. Those are things that are never going to cross the minds of most buyers at either company since basically all the stones are beautiful! But those subtle differences in cut may affect the choice when you are choosing between any two diamonds sitting next to each other, not the brand. If you want to go by marketing to make your decision, I suggest looking at Hearts on Fire. Their registered trademark is "The World's Most Perfectly Cut Diamond". They are also the most expensive of the brands we are discussing on the thread. However, you'd find it very hard to prove they are better than Whiteflash or CBI, and you'd get a much smaller stone for the same money.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I suggest looking at Hearts on Fire. Their registered trademark is "The World's Most Perfectly Cut Diamond". They are also the most expensive of the brands we are discussing on the thread. However, you'd find it very hard to prove they are better than Whiteflash or CBI, and you'd get a much smaller stone for the same money.

Yup, agree 101%!. A well cut stone is a well cut stone. A few yrs ago we went into a HoF store to compare my wife's GOG stone vs some HoF stones, and after the HoF dealer inspected my wife's GOG H&A stone she didn't trash talk about the GOG stone. All she said was "nice stone" after she look at them side by side.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Love your photo DF, they definitely seemed to look bigger to me, with the edge to edge thing going on, the facets were cut the opposite way to and you could see it on the girdle.

That is true about an 8* under a dark lighting condition ( i.e. inside a bar) however, IMO, under other lighting conditions a ACA or CBI will kick the 8*'s ass.

 

[yssie]

@skypie gave excellent advice: seeing them is the best - only! - way to definitively determine which stone you prefer! I’m glad to hear you’re going to be able to look at some of them in-person.

@pyramid I remember when WF ended their crown-painted ACA line - it was a short-lived venture! I wonder how many stones they sold...

 

[uyalison]

I am back!

I did see some beautiful CBI diamonds in person at Green Lake Jewelry works at Bellevue WA. A shout out to Brant, the manager there, patient, knowledgeable, and honest. And Melissa for making the arrangements for me. Thank you both very much.

I will make the long story short. Brant had 4 CBI diamonds and 1 non CBI diamond for me to see side by side in a blind test. The size varies from 2.0 to 1.5. The color varies from H to K. They all have this almost black and white, very contrasty look. They are all beautiful disco balls, that blinded me. I barely even noticed the size difference.

The biggest problem: I couldn't pick out the non-CBI diamond out of the 5. Neither could Brant. He had to match the serial number on the diamonds with the certificate.

Later, he showed me the images of the non-CBI diamonds and a CBI diamond under various scopes. He said under the scope he can see the difference. The CBI diamond is cut superior: arrows and hearts pattern are more consistant, more symmetric. Again, I cannot tell the difference. They all look really good.

Then he showed me the diamonds under different lightings, again even knowing which one is non-CBI, which one is CBI, I cannot tell them apart.

So I asked Brant, "Brant, since I cannot see the different between an non CBI diamond and a CBI diamond, why would I pay the price premium? It is not like I am going to carry a scope with me and look at the diamond through it." He said he had himself handpicked this particular diamond. When he buys none CBI diamonds, he would bring a CBI diamond with him for comparison.

I asked, "please, do you have anything not as good for me to compare?" He brought out another non-CBI diamond. But this time, as soon as I see it, I see the difference. That diamond look muted in comparison. I asked him if the diamond is greasy need to be cleaned.

This is my take away, just my personal honest opinion:
1) all 4 CBI diamonds looked equally beautiful. 2 were sent in as requested by me. 2 are what Brant had in store. So it is not like Brant hand picked the best 4 CBI diamonds. So that tells me it is highly likely all CBI diamonds have the same contrasty disco ball look.

2) Like the first non-CBI diamond that Brant handpicked, it is totally possible that WF ACA diamonds or diamonds from other vendor can have similar performance and similar look as CBI diamonds.

I think to say CBI diamonds are better than WF ACA diamonds or any other diamonds at achieving that look will be an over generalization that no one can prove, unless he has seen all the diamonds in the world , which is humanly impossible.

 

[uyalison]

I feel that I am not entirely clearly on my take away, so here are some clarification

1) For the 4 CBI diamonds that I have seen, I think they are top-of-line, super ideal, that sweep me off my feet.

2) Since I haven never seen WF ACA, I really cannot say whether they are better, worse or equal. All three are possible, depending upon each diamonds.

 

[OoohShiny]

Thank you for your detailed feedback I'm glad you got to check out your options in person, as it is good to be in an informed position!

I think it is interesting that you couldn't pick the non-CBI stone from the CBI stone - I am wondering if because Brant uses a CBI diamond as a 'control' stone when buying non-CBI stones, he is picking those which have very similar proportions and therefore performance, even if the cut accuracy is not to the exacting CBI standards.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Those of us who have seen both will tell you that the CBIs and ACAs are cut pretty much within the same parameters and are going to look the same when their measurements and other specs are about the same. There are near H&A stones that would be difficult for us to tell apart, such as many of the WF Expert Selection and Premium Select stones. Some prefer "the best" just because they want it. Others are perfectly happy with well cut stones that are near ideal parameters. My daughter has a WF Premium Select stone and it certainly looks great to me. So the choice isn't necessaily the same for everyone, but we do encourage you to stick with a well cut stone because it will have edge to edge brightness and look larger and better than a poorly cut one.

 

[Tekate]

This is a great thread. thank you OP.

 

[the_mother_thing]

ACA criteria is too strict I feel and doesn't allow for fluor or any depth greater than 62. This works well for consumers who then pick up otherwise perfect stones without the ACA label price bump.

I - for one - was very happy to benefit from this with my WF ES - it met ALL the ACA cut criteria except for having medium blue fluoro, which saved me a couple thou$and had I gone with the comparable (size, color, etc.) ACA diamond.

 

[skypie]

Good job making an objective evaluation.

For some branding is worth a lot, but it sounds like you care most about what the diamond looks like, regardless of name. That's a good way to approach things...you can get a diamond that looks just as good as a premium brand without paying the premium price!

I am back!

I did see some beautiful CBI diamonds in person at Green Lake Jewelry works at Bellevue WA. A shout out to Brant, the manager there, patient, knowledgeable, and honest. And Melissa for making the arrangements for me. Thank you both very much.

I will make the long story short. Brant had 4 CBI diamonds and 1 non CBI diamond for me to see side by side in a blind test. The size varies from 2.0 to 1.5. The color varies from H to K. They all have this almost black and white, very contrasty look. They are all beautiful disco balls, that blinded me. I barely even noticed the size difference.

The biggest problem: I couldn't pick out the non-CBI diamond out of the 5. Neither could Brant. He had to match the serial number on the diamonds with the certificate.

Later, he showed me the images of the non-CBI diamonds and a CBI diamond under various scopes. He said under the scope he can see the difference. The CBI diamond is cut superior: arrows and hearts pattern are more consistant, more symmetric. Again, I cannot tell the difference. They all look really good.

Then he showed me the diamonds under different lightings, again even knowing which one is non-CBI, which one is CBI, I cannot tell them apart.

So I asked Brant, "Brant, since I cannot see the different between an non CBI diamond and a CBI diamond, why would I pay the price premium? It is not like I am going to carry a scope with me and look at the diamond through it." He said he had himself handpicked this particular diamond. When he buys none CBI diamonds, he would bring a CBI diamond with him for comparison.

I asked, "please, do you have anything not as good for me to compare?" He brought out another non-CBI diamond. But this time, as soon as I see it, I see the difference. That diamond look muted in comparison. I asked him if the diamond is greasy need to be cleaned.

This is my take away, just my personal honest opinion:
1) all 4 CBI diamonds looked equally beautiful. 2 were sent in as requested by me. 2 are what Brant had in store. So it is not like Brant hand picked the best 4 CBI diamonds. So that tells me it is highly likely all CBI diamonds have the same contrasty disco ball look.

2) Like the first non-CBI diamond that Brant handpicked, it is totally possible that WF ACA diamonds or diamonds from other vendor can have similar performance and similar look as CBI diamonds.

I think to say CBI diamonds are better than WF ACA diamonds or any other diamonds at achieving that look will be an over generalization that no one can prove, unless he has seen all the diamonds in the world , which is humanly impossible.

 

[cflutist]

@uyalison

So did you buy any of the diamonds you saw? What was the price difference between the non-CBI diamond and the CBI diamonds?

 

[Lorelei]

I - for one - was very happy to benefit from this with my WF ES - it met ALL the ACA cut criteria except for having medium blue fluoro, which saved me a couple thou$and had I gone with the comparable (size, color, etc.) ACA diamond.

You did great and they've been some cracking ES bargains over the years.

 

[Yimmers]

@uyalison

So did you buy any of the diamonds you saw? What was the price difference between the non-CBI diamond and the CBI diamonds?

Yes, this!!!! Million dollar question: Have you pulled the trigger on a CBI or ACA yet???

 

[TreeScientist]

Agreed with the above. Thank you for the detailed, unbiased account of your personal experience. I think you hit the nail on the head with your observations. I agree with @diamondseeker2006 about the near H&A as well. I recently got a diamond that is not a SuperIdeal, but is an AGS000 that is within the parameters recommended on this site (if we're using WF lingo, I'm sure it would be an Expert Selection or Premium Select diamond). I took it to a local dealer that sells HOF diamonds (which are basically overpriced superideals) and I compared my diamond to a HOF of a similar size both in the jewelry store lighting and also near the window in diffuse sunlight.

Honestly... I couldn't tell the difference.

I think having a branded stone is great, especially since the vendors like WF and CBI have excellent customer service and upgrade policies, but I think people on this site sometimes get way too hung up on this SuperIdeal thing. Especially when it comes down to compairing the different SuperIdeals against each other. To me, that just seems silly. That's why most people on this site recommend going with the SuperIdeal vendor that happens to have the diamond that meets your desired carat, color, clarity in stock at the time of purchase.

To the OP, I hope this experience has brought you closer to selecting a diamond. Please let us know what you choose!

 

[MCAUDI]

That’s great you got to see some CBI in person. Did you have a preference in color? I have several ACA and one CBI. All of them are beautiful diamonds. As many have said, you can’t go wrong with either of them and I’d buy the one with the best specs for the money.
Marcy (usually logged in as Marcy)

 

[uyalison]

Sorry to keep everyone waiting.

I have pretty much decided, and will be wiring the money on Monday. Initially, I was not going to "reveal" until everything is done, but since everyone asked. Also honestly I cannot say I am 100% certain about my choice, now and then I am having a bit of cold feet, due to the large sum of money that I will be spending on myself, I don't want it to be costly mistake. So feel free to give me your thoughts and opinions. Here it goes and my reasoning:

CBI K 2.02 VS2.

1) I really like the CBI diamonds that I saw. The WF ACA is expensive, but cheaper in comparison, but it is an unknown to me whether any particular one will have the same contrasty look that CBI has. To me it is like, I have found the wedding dress that I like, sure I can keep looking, maybe I can find something cheaper that looks the same/similar, which people do and found. But in my case, i think I should just stop. It is a trade off of money vs time, and a bit of uncertainty.

In Dizzle's case, the WF ACA didn't have that contrasty look. It is not good or bad, it is just different. But to me that is the uncertainty. While I have seen the 2.02 K VS2, I know I will be getting what I want.

2) The diamonds from bluenile to me is even more of a wild card. As I am not an expert myself, the beauty of WF ACA and CBI is that someone who is, is doing the grunt work for me. And their upgrade policy is an hindrance to future upgrades. So I think I will just minimize my loss now than later. Also I have worn the ring for 10+ year, I enjoyed it very much. I think the loss as the cost of wearing it for the passed 10+ year, which works out to be 100+ per year, not too bad.

3) I did see H, I, J, K side by side. Honestly, in terms of color, face down, J is not that much better than K. If I want colourless, I will have to go up to H or I. While facing up, the color difference from H to K is very minimum, because you mostly see a rainbow of colors. K is seen slightly more golden. But it is not like I am wearing a H side by side with a K to notice that difference.

So for me there is no reason to spend the extra to go up to J right now. The K 2.02 is as expensive as I am willing to go this round.

I think most of us are "brain washed" to think in diamond less the color the better. I am certainly one of them. That is also one of the reason I want to go with CBI or WF, so that I have the option to upgrade in color in the future, if i want to go more colourless

I don't mind golden/champagne/ivory, I found that look to be quite lovely, warm and soft. However just my personal preference, I don't really want a yellow diamond. I don't think the K 2.02 is, but just in case I find it to be too yellow down the road, I will have the option to upgrade and not spending double the money.

wow I talked a lot about the color, as you can see color is a bit of a concern for me, but again with CBI I am not locked down.

4) While I was seriously considering WF, I had decided on WF's half round exquisite, I like that simple look. Now I am going with HPD, their custom setting (especially the new york classic solitaire), although breadth-takingly beautiful is outside my budget now.

I think 2.02 is probably my final carat size. I probably won't upgrade for size. If color K works out for me, I probably won't upgrade at all. so I want to get a good quality setting. I decided to go with vatche u-113. My only concern is that if I found the K color to be too much with the 21 day return period, I need to exchange it for a diamond in I in a much smaller size (1.5 ct) for the same price. If that happens, the setting for the 2.0 ct can not be reused for a 1.5 ct. I am not sure if the setting is final sale, since Melissa is going to ask for soft knife edge and delicate claw prong for me. I think I should ask Melissa to find out. I will be pretty sad if I am stuck with a 2000 dollar setting.

Thank you everyone. I think some people will be surprised by my decision. For me that decision mostly came about due my liking of the contrasty look and lack of time and expert knowledge myself to filter out the WF ACA.

 

[SandyinAnaheim]

Well, I can tell you from my experience, I shopped for more than 6 months for my stone, after having purchased/returned a ring from Costco that was purported to be 1.5 ct GIA I VS2 XXX, and it was gray and dull in all lighting. I visited well over two dozen jewelry stores and saw MANY stones of varying qualities. I chose CBI and have never had a fraction of a moment's regret. Wink and Melissa were great to work with, their policies can't be beat, and the quality of their custom work is beyond top-notch.

In the 3 years I've had my rings, I've had dozens of people ask me about them and 9 out of 10 people comment on the rings/stones. They are BRILLIANT. I went back with my rings to some of the jewelry stores whose diamonds I had considered purchasing to compare with the CBI, and I have to tell you, I personally have not see anything, anywhere that compares to what I have.

I think you made a wise choice. Just wait till you see it on your hand.... I'm 3 years in and it still takes my breath away every time I look at it.

 

[Lorelei]

While I have seen the 2.02 K VS2, I know I will be getting what I want.

And that's everything. You've done your homework and can now proceed with confidence, congratulations!

 

[CareBear]

I think 2.02 is probably my final carat size. I probably won't upgrade for size. If color K works out for me, I probably won't upgrade at all. so I want to get a good quality setting. I decided to go with vatche u-113. My only concern is that if I found the K color to be too much with the 21 day return period, I need to exchange it for a diamond in I in a much smaller size (1.5 ct) for the same price. If that happens, the setting for the 2.0 ct can not be reused for a 1.5 ct. I am not sure if the setting is final sale, since Melissa is going to ask for soft knife edge and delicate claw prong for me. I think I should ask Melissa to find out. I will be pretty sad if I am stuck with a 2000 dollar setting.

Congrats on finding your stone! I believe Vatche can replace the head of the setting if you decide to change the stone. But it will probably cost a few hundred to do so. I think Diamondseeker changed the head of her U-113 before. But I think the bigger problem will be, will you be okay downsizing to a 1.5 after having a 2ct. Visually there is a big difference.

 

[marcy]

I think you are getting a gorgeous diamond. I'll be anxious to see your ring when you get it.

 

[Miki Moto]

Hi! If you heart is set on a 2ct, I would for sure go with the CBI 2ct. Plus, it seems you are biased toward it for the sparkle so that's two votes for the 2ct.

Yes, there is a jump at the carat mark, and it may seem like a big difference now. But flash forward a few years, and that extra money spent will be well worth it. You will own a 2ct diamond, not an "almost 2ct" and that extra money was just a rounding error in life.

For me, I am all about crossing the carat line (e.g. I prefer 2.00, not 1.99). Diamond purchases are emotional, and I would want to know I have a 2ct. That's just me.

I hope this was helpful. Good luck to you!

 

[iKevyn]

This is a great read as I’m currently in the same boat. Should I pay the premium for CBI or go for ACA question...