help me roughly appraise this paraiba pendant?

[txgreeneyes]

LD --

When did you get that beautiful stone? And where? (if you don't mind me asking)

~~~~~~

Chappy --

Your pendant is just beautiful! Wear it and cherish it! I'm envious!

 

[partgypsy]

I love green colored stones so I think it is very striking and lovely.

If I had something that lovely (and potentially not replacable) I would not feel comfortable wearing it without getting it appraised and insured. I had a (much much smaller) demantoid pendant necklace made, and thinking I would never ever misplace it, but when traveling I checked a piece of baggage at the last minute (which had the necklace in a box), and the necklace was stolen. So not only do I not have the necklace, I can't replace it.

So if you really don't want to get it appraised, etc lock it up in a safety deposit box and leave it there. Or, get it appraised, insured and enjoy wearing it!

 

[LD]

TX - I bought it in 2007 when these gemstones were still relatively easy to get. The gem dealer closed his business a few years ago.

Part Gypsy - sorry to hear about the loss of your pendant. You've given good advice.

 

[chappy]

@part gypsy; oh no! that's terrible. I've just had bad luck with the mail system and don't trust them much with expensive things... they've even lost 'priority' mail! sad.


took this photo with husband's phone, color is a bit more true (it's not green) but quality still no good. can't really capture it well, so frustrating when I see it so pretty in my hand, see it so pretty on the phone but as soon as I click 'snap' then it goes all washed out and unglittery. soon!!! soon I will have my nice camera back. hopefully I will be able to capture it then! jewelry photo-taking is hard. >(

@LD, that's a beautiful photo of a beautiful stone! I doubt mine comes close to the stone in your av, yours looks nearly see-through. do you plan on setting yours, and dare you wear it? haha

if I get the chance to take it in personally for an appraisal I'd jump, I will look into that for the future. for now, FIL says he'll just replace it if I lose it/damage it, so eh, good enough for me.

and thanks for the tip Chrono, I will be more careful with it. I started wearing it today and I kept wondering if my stiff coat lapel was scratching it. oh, pretty stone, why must you be so fragile!

 

[LD]

@part gypsy; oh no! that's terrible. I've just had bad luck with the mail system and don't trust them much with expensive things... they've even lost 'priority' mail! sad.


took this photo with husband's phone, color is a bit more true (it's not green) but quality still no good. can't really capture it well, so frustrating when I see it so pretty in my hand, see it so pretty on the phone but as soon as I click 'snap' then it goes all washed out and unglittery. soon!!! soon I will have my nice camera back. hopefully I will be able to capture it then! jewelry photo-taking is hard. >(

@LD, that's a beautiful photo of a beautiful stone! I doubt mine comes close to the stone in your av, yours looks nearly see-through. do you plan on setting yours, and dare you wear it? haha

if I get the chance to take it in personally for an appraisal I'd jump, I will look into that for the future. for now, FIL says he'll just replace it if I lose it/damage it, so eh, good enough for me.

and thanks for the tip Chrono, I will be more careful with it. I started wearing it today and I kept wondering if my stiff coat lapel was scratching it. oh, pretty stone, why must you be so fragile!

Chappy - you would STRUGGLE and I mean STRUGGLE to replace that. If it is going to be classed as a Paraiba Tourmaline you can add a quite a few zeros to the price. I'm not sure you understand that if this is indeed a 7ct Paraiba Tourmaline, the value could be quite high.

Please do NOT take this to an appraiser. The only way to get a true appraisal is to first find out if this has the chemical composition of a Paraiba Tourmaline. If it doesn't, it affects the value/replacement price. Can you not FedEx to AGL or some other type of courier? If you're that nervous then you should take it to a lab. Seriously, this is NOT a stone that you can pop into a normal appraiser and say "how much is this worth" because it's likely you'll get a huge difference from one to another. If you have a lab report then taking it to an EXPERIENCED appraiser who knows alot about coloured stones (I'm sure forum members can recommend somebody in the US) will give you a far more accurate assessment of worth/value/replacement cost.

Oh and by the way, the stone in my avatar is set into a ring now! There's a thread on it somewhere!

 

[Barrett]

Personally I don't like to consider green cuprian tourmalines anything other than your run of the mill average tourmaline.
We all know that Cu+2 is the acting coloring chromophore in so called paraiba tourmalines..if the tourmaline was just colored by Cu+2 alone it would be that fantastic glowy turquoise blue to blue color every one loves.
When you trend towards the green colors you are incorporating Mn and Ti into the lattice and when you move towards the violets, and purples you are adding Mn to the lattice.
When you are buying paraibas you are buying for the copper but when you get these other transition elements into the fold they sort of muddle and displace the y-site which could have been a good place for the copper molecules. So when you have say an Mn+2 molecule in place of a Cu+2 molecule you are downgrading the effect of the Cu to produce the "neon"/"glow". As an example: say you have a green paraiba? doesn't really make sense..the Cu+2 is producing a turquoise or blue color stone but you have a green one in you hand. Where is the color the copper molecules are imparting on the stone? Don't see any blue just green or purple for that matter. If you have a blue-green stone or a green-blue stone then you are getting some effect from the copper molecules but as you move closer to the green end you get less paraiba-like.

Cu+2(copper)=turquoise(blue)="neon"/"glow"
Less blue/turquoise in the stone = less copper acting as a chromophore = less "glow"/"neon" effect.
Of course many other variables are involved as well
by Barrett » 16 Oct 2010 16:58

Rossman says the green coloring in Paraiba tourmaline is due to Ti and Mn others say Iron.
Copper ONLY produces that cyan/turquoise color in tourmaline. Not green or that blue-green color. As an example this green one that the OP posted is far away from what "paraiba " is suspossed to be. That green is not being produced by copper in the slightest, but by either iron or a Titanium/Manganese.

Green = Iron or Titanium/manganese chromophores. it's really no different than a regular green tourmaline. It has to have that blue/turquoise/cyan to be a paraiba..whether that be blue-green, green-blue mix or blue.(turquoise, cyan, windex, etc)

 

[LD]

Jason - a question for you please (since I'm chemically challenged)! So what happens when you have a copper/manganese mix as in my 18ct stone I posted? As I don't know the ratio of copper to manganese I can't say whether it's weighted one way or another, although following your post, I suspect it's probably less copper and more manganese. It was my understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong) that the chemical composition now denotes whether a stone (from any locality - forget that can of worms for now) may be given the title "paraiba" or not?

As I've said, personally I think this only just scrapes through as a "paraiba" based on the neon glow I see in hand. However, it's at the weakest end - and I agree that it's more green and the blues are the ones that take my breath away. I do see some blue in this stone but not much.

 

[chrono]

FIL says he'll just replace it if I lose it/damage it, so eh, good enough for me.

I wish it were that easy. If you can find one of the same size that exhibits the same glow, you'll be hard pressed to cough up the funds for it today. Barely 5 years ago, these can still be found relatively easily in the market. Today? I wish it were so.

 

[chrono]

I'm going to go off on a tangent here for the purpose of discussing colouration of what is and isn't a paraiba. Please bear with me.

I think we are getting a bit hung up on the chemical composition of what constitutes a paraiba. This is the very reason why even ugly bluish tourmalines are being sold at over-inflated prices just because it contains copper. Buy the stone and not the paper. This harks back to the days when an emerald is only an emerald if it contains chromium. If it is coloured by vanadium, no matter how pretty, it was considered a green beryl. The same was true for tsavorites at one point in time as well. If it has the glow, then it is a Paraiba but if the glow isn't as strong, then the quality is considered lower. Is this not the same when judging rubies? Iron coloured rubies are still rubies but in general are not as pretty as chromium coloured rubies. And even amongst chromium coloured rubies, some are better looking than others and are priced appropriately.

 

[LD]

I'm going to go off on a tangent here for the purpose of discussing colouration of what is and isn't a paraiba. Please bear with me.

I think we are getting a bit hung up on the chemical composition of what constitutes a paraiba. This is the very reason why even ugly bluish tourmalines are being sold at over-inflated prices just because it contains copper. Buy the stone and not the paper. This harks back to the days when an emerald is only an emerald if it contains chromium. If it is coloured by vanadium, no matter how pretty, it was considered a green beryl. The same was true for tsavorites at one point in time as well. If it has the glow, then it is a Paraiba but if the glow isn't as strong, then the quality is considered lower. Is this not the same when judging rubies? Iron coloured rubies are still rubies but in general are not as pretty as chromium coloured rubies. And even amongst chromium coloured rubies, some are better looking than others and are priced appropriately.

You're right of course and actually just expanding this further there are 3 things that need to be present for a stone to achieve Paraiba status (in my opinion):

1. the chemical make up has to be correct
2. the colour has to be strongly saturated and vivid
3. there has to be a neon glow

For the OP, unless 1 above is correct, you can forget about the rest because it won't be valued as a paraiba. If it gets over that hurdle then it has to satisfy 2 and 3!

 

[chappy]

here are better pics as promised! I should've just waited to take these instead of uploading the inaccurate cellphone pics, these are much more true to what I see in person. both taken in natural light (cloudy day), one out on the balcony and the second inside.




as you can see in the second photo, the middle of the insides is heavily included. I also noticed a few light scratches on the outside, possibly caused by me just wearing it casually, so I've put it away for now and won't be using this as an everyday necklace. too fragile!

thanks for everyone's advice, perhaps this isn't a paraiba after all, and if it is it'd probably be a weak one. definitely in the middle of being green/blue, not extremely blue. sorry if I offended anyone by calling this a paraiba, I don't really know much about gemstones and I just called it by what it said on the certificate. actually I will ask them to email me a copy and hey, maybe it's a legit appraiser and I wouldn't need to go to any extra trouble anyway!

LD, I will go hunt down your ring thread now. how do you wear it without getting scratches on it, and when you do get scratches on it doesn't it hurt your heart?

 

[missy]

Chappy, what a gorgeous pendant and what a thoughtful gift!

 

[LD]

Chappy I can't stress this enough. If the colour in your latest post is accurate then this is much more Paraiba than the othe photos. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get this assessed properly.

 

[chrono]

If it is that blue (as in your latest 2 pictures), this stone is more likely to be considered a paraiba. It may not be a top stone but considering the size and etc, it could potentially be worth a lot. Much more than the green version. I would not send it to an appraiser but walk it to AGL.

 

[chappy]

well, I just got emailed the scans of the certificate it came with--and it's from AGL (underneath is written "Central Gem Laboratory", but AGL on top). so it's definitely a paraiba; the composition contains CuO and MnO, but much more of MnO, so it's probably not a good paraiba? there's other specs like 'specific gravity' and 'absorption spectrum' but the rest is written in japanese and I can't read that. anyone read japanese here? hahaha...

but yay, I don't need to trouble myself with getting it certified! it already is. there's no estimated value with the certificate though, so I still don't really know.

 

[chrono]

Do not confuse the Association of Gem Labs (Japan) with American Gemological Laborotary (USA). Both have the same initials but are different. Seems like the lab used is the Japanese Central Gem Lab. Just because a stone contains copper does not automatically make it a Paraiba but you can safely call it a cuprian tourmaline (copper bearing tourmaline). I think it's lovely. My reading level of kanji is quite poor although I do better with hiragana and katakana.

 

[tara3056]

Can you take a pic or scan of the certificate and post it here?

 

[LD]

Chappy I agree with Chrono. That lab is not one that I would typically use. It sounds like they've put the stone through it's paces (which is good) but it would also be good to see the rest of the report so can I second asking to see it please?

In terms of Copper/Manganese - please don't worry. I know what you're saying because of Barrett's post BUT the fact that it has copper is very good. So as Chrono has said, you've definitely got a Cuprian (rather than just a bog standard nice Tourmaline). Now the definitive is whether this has the colour and "neon-ness" that would tip it into the Paraiba bracket. Unfortunately, none of us can tell you that because photos can be deceptive. Also you need somebody with experienced eyes to have it in their hands to make that assessment.

From your photos, it looks promising. Is it the best "Paraiba" in the world? No because of the inclusions BUT BUT BUT a 7ct Cuprian with that colour (and potentially the tag of Paraiba) would be a very very very expensive stone. Make no mistake, even if it's "just" a Cuprian, it will still be a valuable piece.

What I would suggest is that you send it to AGL USA (if the other lab report isn't definitive enough) OR you go along to an appraiser (Chrono can you suggest one in the US please?) who has seen Paraibas and will be able to accurately assess your stone for a replacement/insurance value.

By the way, don't get overly-obsessed that it will get scratched etc. I have a number of Paraibas in rings and pendants that I wear frequently. I've never scratched one of them!

 

[chappy]

I want to see your video LD, but youtube is blocked in china! I was using VPN for a while but it decided to stop working on me. sigh. next time I'm in HK I will take a look (forgot, argh)! it's amazing that not even your ring's been scratched. :O wow, I had no idea there were more than two AGLs and that they'd be completely different. confusing, hmph! is the japanese AGL untrustworthy?

and I don't want to mislead anyone, while the stone is closer to that blue of the latest photos, it is only that blue in natural light (and I can still see green in it). in yellow room light, it is more in-between blue/green.

I've attached the scans I was emailed. maybe someone else can make more sense of it (not sure why it's so small... it's big on my desktop)!

 

[LD]

Ok, well I can't read the report but I can pick out one or two things!

Firstly it's an Elbaite/Liddicoatite combination and it has 0.22% of copper. However, what I can't see is what is the % of Elbaite to Liddicoatite?

If you look at how Gubelin categorise whether a tourmaline is Paraiba or not you'll see the percentages play a part to determining whether this MIGHT be given the name of Paraiba (click on the video at the bottom of the link and you'll see it about half way through the presentation).

http://www.gubelingemlab.ch/About-Gemstones-and-Pearls/Paraiba-Tourmaline.php

Now then, even if it passes this test, it still has to have the correct body colour AND neon glow.

 

[minousbijoux]

Ok, well I can't read the report but I can pick out one or two things!

Firstly it's an Elbaite/Liddicoatite combination and it has 0.22% of copper. However, what I can't see is what is the % of Elbaite to Liddicoatite?

If you look at how Gubelin categorise whether a tourmaline is Paraiba or not you'll see the percentages play a part to determining whether this MIGHT be given the name of Paraiba (click on the video at the bottom of the link and you'll see it about half way through the presentation).

http://www.gubelingemlab.ch/About-Gemstones-and-Pearls/Paraiba-Tourmaline.php

Now then, even if it passes this test, it still has to have the correct body colour AND neon glow.

Great information, LD. I sheepishly admit that I did not know that certain ratios and percentages were necessary for a stone to be classified as a Paraiba! I thought it was simply a function of first, whether it was copper bearing; and second, whether it was considered to glow (admittedly, I was thinking this was limited to simple observation and was therefore a subjective test). Really, really good info. I have two stones that until now I *thought* were likely to be considered "Paraiba" (albeit not from Brazil). Now I wonder...

 

[LD]

Ok, well I can't read the report but I can pick out one or two things!

Firstly it's an Elbaite/Liddicoatite combination and it has 0.22% of copper. However, what I can't see is what is the % of Elbaite to Liddicoatite?

If you look at how Gubelin categorise whether a tourmaline is Paraiba or not you'll see the percentages play a part to determining whether this MIGHT be given the name of Paraiba (click on the video at the bottom of the link and you'll see it about half way through the presentation).

http://www.gubelingemlab.ch/About-Gemstones-and-Pearls/Paraiba-Tourmaline.php

Now then, even if it passes this test, it still has to have the correct body colour AND neon glow.

Great information, LD. I sheepishly admit that I did not know that certain ratios and percentages were necessary for a stone to be classified as a Paraiba! I thought it was simply a function of first, whether it was copper bearing; and second, whether it was considered to glow (admittedly, I was thinking this was limited to simple observation and was therefore a subjective test). Really, really good info. I have two stones that until now I *thought* were likely to be considered "Paraiba" (albeit not from Brazil). Now I wonder...

Minou - I don't know if other labs use the same criteria or different. I suspect for some labs the presence of copper may be enough but it's SO subjective because, as you know, there are lovely Cuprians but they don't deserve the Paraiba title. I'm realistic about mine. I believe that 3 or 4 of mine are good enough to be classed as Paraibas (and have been) BUT some of the others that also have been, I'm not sure whether they are as deserving of the title!

 

[minousbijoux]

Oh, I'm SURE mine are Paraibas because the vendors I bought them from said they were, and they're trustworthy vendors