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Help...I think I have been taken!

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drm31078

Rough_Rock
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Jan 5, 2007
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I just bought a diamond (put down deposit) that was described to me as IDEAL cut. Can someone tell me if I got ripped off? Here are the specs:


GIA Certified
Round Brilliant
Measurement: 6.15-6.19 x 3.76mm
Weight: 0.88 Carot
Depth: 60.9%
Table: 0.58%
Girdle: Thin to Medium, Faceted
Cutlet: None
Polish: Good
Symmetry: Good
Clairty: SI1
Characterisitics: Feather, Crystal
Color Grade: E
Fluorescence: None
Comments: None

Thanks!

 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
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11,071
Date: 1/5/2007 10:36:15 PM
Author:drm31078

I just bought a diamond (put down deposit) that was described to me as IDEAL cut. Can someone tell me if I got ripped off? Here are the specs:



GIA Certified
Round Brilliant
Measurement: 6.15-6.19 x 3.76mm
Weight: 0.88 Carot
Depth: 60.9%
Table: 0.58%
Girdle: Thin to Medium, Faceted
Cutlet: None
Polish: Good
Symmetry: Good
Clairty: SI1
Characterisitics: Feather, Crystal
Color Grade: E
Fluorescence: None
Comments: None

Thanks!

we need more info - like the angles for crown and pavillon.... and price if you just want to know that you paid correctly for what you got regardless of specs.
 

kcoursolle

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 21, 2006
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10,589
GIA''s highest cut grade is "excellent," GIA has no ideal category. However, it''s hard to tell whether this diamond is well cut with the information you provided. Do you have crown and pavillion angles, or an ideal scope image? This would help us be able to evaluate cut quality better.
 

scarleta

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
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1,572
perhaps you can post gia certificate nr , that way we can help you out .
 

ILikeBond

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Nov 20, 2006
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312
Why do you assume you got taken? Is there something in particular that worries you?

The 58% (not 0.58%) table is a little big... but that''s the least important measurement as far as what constitutes an ideal cut (as compared to depth %, crown angle, girdle width, and pavilion angle).
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
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23,295
sorry but that diamond will never be ideal under current industry accepted standards as set by AGS.
But depending on what you paid for it you might have got what you paid for.
 

Lorelei

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Welcome


I think if you have been doing some research, this might be a case of an Ideal Cut description being used for this diamond as a label when it looks to be slightly out of Ideal cut range as Storm said, with the table, polish and symmetry I might add. BUT... this could be a very nice diamond which performs beautifully and it could still have a very good cut. Again we can't tell much unless you post what you paid for it?
 

JulieN

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hard to tell if you got ripped off without listing price?
 

shiatsu

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Date: 1/6/2007 1:40:12 AM
Author: strmrdr
sorry but that diamond will never be ideal under current industry accepted standards as set by AGS.
But depending on what you paid for it you might have got what you paid for.
Yeah, AGS ideal cuts can't have the table any larger than 57.5%.
but while the AGS ideal is the strictest sense of ideal, it can also take on many other definitions depending on who's using the term. The person who sold it to him most likely was using it a bit looser than AGS does.

Just good polish and symmetry aren't usually seen on something called ideal either, usually it has to be up in the excellent, ideal, or at least very good range.

If you paid any more than $4500 you probably got ripped off. If you paid less than $3500 you probably got a good deal.
 

drm31078

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 5, 2007
Messages
21
Wow, thanks for all the responses...

The info I have provided is all that is on the GIA report. The seller has been a certified gemologist for a long time (i saw his degree), however it is probably a conflict of interest for me since he is the salesperson. He says he looked at pavilion depth and crown angle and they are ideal, he even tried to show it to me in his book to try to let me see it under 10x. For $100 he will send it out to get the full sarin report. The thing that bothers me is the good/good - symmetry/polish...is it possible to have an ideal cut with good,good? It is $4500, I put down a deposit. He has 30 day full refund policy. It is a diamond warehouse.
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
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Neither GIA nor AGS will give their top cut grade to a stone with either a polish or symmetry of ‘good’. For AGS this must be ‘ideal’ and for GIA it must be at least ‘very good’. This, of course, doesn’t mean that you’ve been ripped off but it does mean that stone probably isn’t an AGS-ideal or a GIA-excellent cut.

If you’re going to spend $100 to get more information, get it yourself so that you are skipping the conflict of interest problem. Find an independent appraiser with a Sarin and they should be able to tell you quite a bit more about the stone that may help you make a decision.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 

RockDoc

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
2,509
There are lots of interpretations of "Ideal".

In the New AGS Cut grade system the table may just eek into the Ideal grade based on the proportions, but in the symmetry, and polish grades it where light performance is taken in to consideration, it would probably reduce it the cut grade to AGS 3-4.

You wrote that this is a "diamond warehouse" and that the sales person is a "Certified Gemologist". That sort of sounds suspicious. In order to use that designation, the seller should be an AGS Firm Member Store with current membership. AGS does not generally grant firm membership to "diamond warehouse" type businesses. The do have Supplier Memberships, but those having those are not to be selling to the retail public.

It could be possible that this person earned the title, while working for an AGS member, but if the current business is not a member, it shouldn''t be "advertised", even if the person is an afffiliate member, keeps the membership current, and takes the yearly exams.

It is common in the industry for GIA Graduate Gemologists to CLAIM they are Certified, but that would consitutue an exaggeration of their credentials. Unfortunately, this is common.

You could check at AGS''s site to see if the business is a member of AGS at www.ags.org.

$100.00 for just a Sarin report sounds excessive.

Probably is better to cancel the deal and look for a diamond that does have a new AGS grading report, if you really want it to be an AGS 0. You could probably find it for around the same price or less.


Rockdoc
 

oldminer

Ideal_Rock
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6,320
The stone might be a borderline Tolkowsky style Ideal cut, but probably not the newest AGS itteration of the "0" cut. The Sarin readings, if that''s what they are presently, on this diamond may be out of calibration easily enough that a more accurate, or a different Sarin would put the stone into the old Tolkowsky ideal range. Sarin readings are good, not perfect. We only charge $10 for them, so anyone wanting $100 is not what anyone would call a good deal.

Obviously, there are diamonds of better cut quality. However, we need to keep our perspective in that this stone may be what a person can afford. We all make compromises as we buy luxury items.

You can use the AGS 0 as the symbol of perfection, but all AGS 0 diamonds do not look the same and they all are not equal to one another. They all may fit within the top category, as defined by AGS, but one still should look at the diamond before buying blindly.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
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Messages
55,054
It's great that they have a return policy! Go ahead and use it! If you want an ideal cut diamond, you can certainly get one from a reliable vendor. That stone is definitely not ideal. At minimum, you'd be looking for excellent cut and at least very good polish and symmetry. And as everyone else has said, you need to know what measurements to be looking for.

The closest thing I can find for comparison is an AGS0 .85 E SI1 stone that IS ideal cut, and it is $3660 with the wire discount. So you bought an inferior stone for more money. You can do better than this place. We'd be glad to help you search more reliable vendors with excellent/ideal stones if you'd like. You can go down a bit in color and up in size or clarity, too.

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamond.asp?b=16&a=12&c=77&cid=131&item=895837

Other possibilities with your budget (there aren't a lot right now at your exact price):

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamond.asp?b=16&a=12&c=77&cid=131&item=890306 (this one is Ex for cut, vg/ex for symmetry and polish, $4380.)

This one is $5885 with Pricescope and wire discounts, but it is a true AGS0 ideal cut:

http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-179736.htm
 

drm31078

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 5, 2007
Messages
21
His title is graduate gemologists and his degree is from the international school of gemology (i saw the certificate on the wall as proof). The cost was $100 to send the diamond back to GIA to get all the dimensions. They only deal with GIA certs and do not send them to AGS for certs, therefore they are not in the AGS database. They basically take the GIA cert and make a comparison to an AGS rating system to determine cut quality. They use the following criteria:

Table % = 52.4-58.0 = 0
Total Depth % = 59.3 to 63.8 = 0
Crown Height % = 33.0 to 36.0 = 0
Pavillion Depth = 42.0 to 44.0 = 0
Polish/Symmetry = E, VG, G = 0
Girdle = Thin, Med, Thick = 0

If all of the diamonds certs equal 0 on the above scale then they consider the diamond ideal. In which case my diamond falls under this scale as ideal (assuming I take his word on Crown Height and Pavillion Height). This is a pretty reputable diamond wholesaler in Charlotte, NC called Diamond Direct. Official diamond seller for the Carolina Panthers if that means anything, haha! I am still skeptical though.
 

JohnQuixote

Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Messages
5,212
Date: 1/6/2007 10:27:37 AM
Author: drm31078
His title is graduate gemologists and his degree is from the international school of gemology (i saw the certificate on the wall as proof). The cost was $100 to send the diamond back to GIA to get all the dimensions. They only deal with GIA certs and do not send them to AGS for certs, therefore they are not in the AGS database. They basically take the GIA cert and make a comparison to an AGS rating system to determine cut quality. They use the following criteria:

Table % = 52.4-58.0 = 0
Total Depth % = 59.3 to 63.8 = 0
Crown Height % = 33.0 to 36.0 = 0
Pavillion Depth = 42.0 to 44.0 = 0
Polish/Symmetry = E, VG, G = 0
Girdle = Thin, Med, Thick = 0

If all of the diamonds certs equal 0 on the above scale then they consider the diamond ideal. In which case my diamond falls under this scale as ideal (assuming I take his word on Crown Height and Pavillion Height). This is a pretty reputable diamond wholesaler in Charlotte, NC called Diamond Direct. Official diamond seller for the Carolina Panthers if that means anything, haha! I am still skeptical though.
I don't know that you've been "taken." But if you copied your jeweler's list correctly it's inaccurate in places and out of date in others.

It may relate to the 1996-2005 AGS system, but is still incorrect.

* Crown Height should be 'Crown Angle' (and should read 33.7-35.8)
* Pavilion Depth is not as useful as 'Pavilion Angle,' which was 40.15-41.2 (after revision)
* Girdle should be thin, med, slightly thick...thick should not be included
* Depth should be a more narrow range
* Polish/Symmetry should be limited to EX. This is not as great an area of difference as the above however...there is no visible difference between Ideal, EX and VG polish/symmetry if graded by AGS/GIA.

Even with the above corrections, in 2005 the AGS changed their system. A diamond is now scanned, ray-traced and verified by human evaluation using angular spectrum. If the diamond earns top numeric values for brightness, dispersion, contrast and leakage it will earn the 0 grade for 'light performance.' This is only one part of the total 'Ideal' cut grade however. For a diamond to earn AGS Ideal in cut it must also have the 'Ideal' 0 grade in proportions/durability values and 'Ideal' 0 grades in both polish and symmetry.

The current AGS system is more strict, but thanks to its flexibility it allows more varied combos; for instance, diamonds with tables up to 62% can potentially earn an AGS 0 - but they must have very specific crown/pavilion angles, etc. You can see an overlay of predicted AGS 0 versus GIA EX ranges in this thread.

In short, with the 'Good' finish grade this diamond could not be an AGS Ideal (as strmrdr mentioned). we could help you more if we knew crown and pavilion angles, and an ideal-scope or ASET image would be even better.
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 21, 2004
Messages
8,674

Several red flags here.


The international school of gemology does not issue a credential called ‘graduate gemologist’. See www.schoolofgemology.com for a discussion of what the do, and do not, offer at that school.


GIA will not provide Sarin data at any price. As mentioned above, there are plenty of other sources (including me) who will do it for considerably less than you were quoted.


Advertising with the Carolina Panthers has no bearing on anything other than to indicate that this particular retailer has a pretty good advertising budget. This indicates a certain amount of stability and general size but it has nothing to do with whether the stones are good, the deals are good or the grader is good.


Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,054
I bought a setting from Diamonds Direct and they do have an outstanding selection of settings. I am very happy with all of that. They also carry some nice diamonds. I did look there personally. I only looked at GIA stones and I would not consider anything that was less than GIA excellent cut. They simply did not have a stone that had the specs I was looking for. In addition, I was able to get better prices on better cut stones from vendors such as Good Old Gold and WhiteFlash. However, some people are happier buying a stone locally and paying a bit more, and that is certainly fine. You just need to insist on the GIA cert saying Excellent cut, at least very good or excellent on polish and symmetry, thin/med/slightly thick on the girdle, roughly 34-35 on the crown angle (and correspondingly good pavilion angle from around 40.6-41), 60-62 on the depth, and 54-57 on the table. if you stick to these parameters, you should be able to get a good stone. Most people do not have good knowledge going into buying a diamond, and the term ideal is used very loosely by many jewelers. So I wouldn''t assume anyone was trying to "take" you since that is a reputable company, but you need to go in armed with the knowledge to protect yourself, wherever you shop.

Oh, and they are retail regardless of what anything says, not wholesale.
 

drm31078

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 5, 2007
Messages
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Thanks for all the advice. Maybe I need to be more careful with the "ideal" terminology. From everything I read and are telling me, it seems like there is no real concrete way of determining if a diamond is ideal. I guess I am just an average joe looking for a well cut diamond. Regardless, everything I have read says I need at least EX or VG polish or symmetry for even a "well cut" diamond. Therefore, I called them up and told them not to mount the diamond and they were very understanding...no problems at all. They were under the impression I wanted a diamond that had the best certs for the money rather than understanding that I would pay a bit more to have all the certs as "ideal" as possible. So they are going to pull a few more diamonds for me with tighter certs to look at.

Diamondseeker, I like your philosophy and the criteria I should follow. I feel comfortable that I will get a well cut diamond at a minimum if I follow what you said. I am also glad you confirmed that I am working with a reputable dealer.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
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That sounds good. I''d just come back here with the specs on any stones you''re interested in and let people critique them for you. In addition, some comparable stones can be found to help you know if you are getting a fair price.
 

drm31078

Rough_Rock
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Jan 5, 2007
Messages
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Where can I find an official AGS rating sheet to confirm all the certifications for an "ideal" diamond defined by AGS prior to 2005?
 

JulieN

Super_Ideal_Rock
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13,321
That system was flawed...why would you want it? HCA would be a better way to check your proportions...

but a PS search with "AGS" and "old" might work
 

drm31078

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Jan 5, 2007
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Okay, the jewler called me back today and he has the following with the new GIA report:

2006 GIA Cert
Carot: 0.89
GIA Cut Grade: Excellent
Color: E
Clarity: SI1
Polish/Symmetry: Excellent/Excellent
Price: $4800

I am going to look at it tommorrow. I am planning on also looking at the dimensions and comparing it to the following:

Table: 54-57
Total Depth: 60-62
Crown Angle: 34-35
Pavilion Angle: 40-41.5
Girdle: Thin,Med,Slightly Thick

Does this seem like a good plan? Any suggestions?
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Great plan! This stone sounds like it has potential! Check it closely to be sure you can't see the inclusions with your eyes, and then ask to look at it with a loupe. Just FYI, F and G diamonds are worth looking at as well. Let us know.

(Just noticed your numbers. I'd say try for the pavilion angle between 40.6 and 41.)
 

drm31078

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Okay, I will check that it is eye clean and I will use those Pavilion values you suggested.

However, say I check all the values and they don''t fall exactly into those specifications, do I walk away from the diamond? Are there certain dimensions that are more critical than others? I know this whole "ideal" business has different definitions, but GIA is pretty reputable so doesn''t an "excellent cut" mean something?
 

JulieN

Super_Ideal_Rock
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NO, do not walk away. do you like the diamond? that's the most important thing.

the range you have is super narrow (or too broad?) are you really gonna reject a stone with 57.5 table vs a 57, which is rounded to 58 on GIA? Plenty of stones with upper 33s and 41 that are fine.

And I don't even know why you included 41.5 PA if you are only considering crown angle>=34. You'd probably want a crown angle around 31-32 for that.

Or a 40 PA? I think you need to check those numbers again... With a 34-35 CA, you could prob do fine depending on preferences between 40.6-41.2 PA.
 

belle

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 19, 2004
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10,285
it looks like you are heading in a better direction for sure. of course seeing a diamond with your own eyes and comparing it to others is the best scenario you can have. the good thing about the new gia reports is, the important info (crown/pavilion angles) is listed on the report. you might be able to save yourself a trip by getting the numbers over the phone. there is no reason they cannot provide them at this point.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Lol! This poor guy is going to think he needs a gemology diploma to choose a diamond! Really, I personally think GIA excellent and your eyes thinking the diamond is beautiful is about enough! So don''t dismiss the diamond if one of the measurements is a little off. It is just a guideline that will help you know how close to ideal cut the stone is. We all just want to see you get a great stone!
 
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