Help! Cracked/damaged sapphire

[SparkliesLuver]

+1 to mochiko's message. I'm so sorry about this whole situation!

 

[minousbijoux]

Minous, I'm not sure my definition of a 'stand up guy' would be putting the gem back on the market without cleaning up the issue with Mahaha--with a full refund. Further, for the seller to negotiate a charge from Mahaha after receiving the stone and seeing that it was natural inclusions, not trauma externally, is not stand up behavior.... Clearly this vendor needs to make this right....... the sooner the better! Mahaha, please let us know if this vendor refunds you the amount you paid assuming it was damaged........

If John does not remediate the situation, then I would not consider him a stand up guy. I am still assuming, given my past interactions with John, that this is a misunderstanding that John will correct asap. If that does not occur, then I agree with you and will unfortunately have to retract my comments.

 

[mahaha]

Hi all, thank you for the support. I've contacted him and I will wait for his response.

@Saphgem His policy is to provide a full refund. He even said that he'd give me a full refund when I called him telling him I would like to return the stone. However, after receiving it, he said that his policy states that stone must be in "original" condition. At that point, I was scared that he wouldn't refund at all! Eventually, he agreed to take a "restocking" fee.

Before he gave me the partial refund, I also asked him to "take the high res photo of the stone in the same manner as before". I was interested to see if the "crack" was visible in his original photo. I never ended up receiving that photo. Now I see that the new photo and videos do not show the crack and regret not pushing further for it.

I'll report back with any results.

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

Mahaha- If I am understanding this right he asked you to pay a restocking fee because the stone was not in "original condition" yet he is advertising the sapphire for sale now as not damaged? If so- it appears the "line" you saw was the veil he is describing in his listing. So the sapphire was sent back in original condition and you should get the full refund unless I am missing something here.

 

[mahaha]

Hi all,

To clarify, when this all happened, I took the advice of this forum and suggested/offered a partial refund instead. He agreed to it.

I contacted him and argued that based on his description that I shouldn't have to pay that fee. He was not very happy about that and said he was heavily invested in it and that he was trying to recover what he could. Of course, I pointed out that the description is then misleading and that another consumer, just like me, may fall into the same situation... but next time, he may not give them a refund.

Either way, I started to feel bad for pressuring, because accusations and regret among other things were thrown at me. In the end, it seems like I won't be getting a full refund. I brought up the fact that he should reconsider his packaging methods and shipping insurance, and that I hope he will not make his ad misleading to others. I hope you all agree that shipping is the seller's responsibility.

It has been a few days since and no change yet. If he doesn't end up fixing his ad, then it would be unethical and I, personally, would not buy from him ever again.

 

[minousbijoux]

I don't understand - was it damaged or not?

 

[mahaha]

I don't understand - was it damaged or not?

Based on the correspondence with him, yes it is.

 

[digdeep]

It sounds like it was not damaged but the veil was undisclosed by John originally and John appeared to claim the stone was damaged even though it was the natural inclusion = veil. Now the veil is stated as visible in only one position from the pavilion. I believe this is the listing--and correct me if I'm wrong. https://loupetroop.com/listings/loo...e/untreated-ceylon-blue-sapphire-4-dot-83-cts And if it is the listing, then it appears that there were some unethical actions (at best) here, and plenty of room for John to step up to make it right, but has he?

 

[digdeep]

I would contact my credit card company or whomever the Payer was, and dispute this charge given that there is a new listing with the gem on it and limited disclosure of the issue you faced. You deserve a full refund, but you may have to push the issue with this vendor. In the meantime, I won't be buying anything from this vendor...........this is a nightmare!

 

[mahaha]

Now the veil is stated as visible in only one position from the pavilion. ....

@digdeep I was always bothered by that comment "only from the pavilion". Crack or no crack, that comment alone is already false.

I guess this is my review of Gemrite and I hope my buying experience will help all enthusiasts take precaution with shipping and handling of gemstones. I'll continue to keep an eye out to see if the ad gets updated.

 

[GemRite]

Hello,
I would like to explain the situation of 20 years of being in the gem business. With many of you who loyally purchase from me know I never debate or even ask a question if you would like to return for a full refund. However on my website it states "
We offer a 14 day full money back guarantee policy. We call it the "No Hassle - No Fuss" return policy. If the item is not what you expected, then just send us an email and we will give you details for sending the item back for a full refund. The stone will be inspected and as long as the stone is returned in orignal condition we will issue a full refund. Also upon request, we can take additional photos of any of the pieces we offer for purchase. If you have any other questions please send us an email and we will get back to you as soon as possible. " I never hassle over the 14 days. I give until the customer likes it or it is not for them. This sapphire we speak of was personally cut by me. I looked at the stone during cutting over 200 plus time with a loupe. Never once did I ever see this crack. I sent it to AGL to have it tested for no heat. It was returned and packed by me and inspected by my wife. I placed it in a well protected wrap of paper towel, hard cardboard, a strip of bubble wrap, then in a bubble wrap bag and then in another bubble wrap bag. The gem jar was only in a bubble wrap. It arrived with no damage to the packaging. The gem jar showed no signs of cracking or being broke showing it was in a high impact hit or even any type of scuffing. This is all in email from the client that purchased it. The day after he received it he told me he sees a large crack in the stone. Asked me if it was there. Well over the phone and someone describing what they see. I had no idea if he was using a loupe or viewing by the eye. I asked if it was just a natural inclusion. At this point my heat sinks. I know that stone was listed as VVS clarity. It was so clean it was difficult to see any inclusions or silt. So in my heart I hoped it was natural and he just wasn't describing well what he said. Because i know that gem doesn't have a crack. I asked if he dropped it on a hard surface or on time. Or if he dropped it while in the gem jar. He said no. What would anyone telling you on a very expensive stone. I said he could send it back and I would look at the stone so I can determine if it is something natural or not. He proceeds to tell me the reason for sending the stone back is it is too grey in some light. This i know is not the real reason. If he did not do it why not say hey there is a crack and I am not owning a stone with a crack, Right?? No he tells me he would keep it but it is the color. too grey inside. Ahh ok. I get the stone. Sure enough it is cracked. So doing this for 20 years I know what caused it. High impact against a hard surface. Can cause this type of inclusion. Often seen in stones that are mined using dynamite. Causes stress fractures. We I speak to him and let him know what I find. I tell him usually our policy is not to accept back damaged stones. He plays innocent and right off the bat offers me 20% restocking fee to take it back. I told him I really had to think. I have never had any issue in 20 years of business. I always want to do right by people. I truly do. One bad press can crush 20 years of always doing the right thing. So I agreed to it after a night or 2 of sitting up until 3 am. Thinking of this devastating loss. The value of the stone deminished in an instant. So trying to avoid him claiming all this non sense or ruining my business I accepted his terms. This price is no where near the price I paid for it. So I would think it would be over. Nope. I posted the stone. Citing the internal crack as a veil. And tried relisting as not to have a total finical loss equal to most people's car. Here comes the email. Wanting a full refund. But my favorite part is "we think it was a natural inclusion all along" And you are cheating us. The moral of the story. Stick to company policy. Large stone take photo when it is packaged. Never take back a damaged stone. Don't try to be nice. You give an inch they will take a mile. Now the stone is beautiful. When viweing it table side you can't see it. When viewing from the pavilion you can see it. Once set it will be fine. Someone who wants to have a stone with an inclusion for this type of price. Not a lot of people. The stone value dimished with the damage that occured. No one will admit to breaking a 9k sapphire. No one would keep a 9k sapphire that they damaged. I know it was not damaged before leaving. I know they packaging was adaquete and the stone was not damaged in shipping. I know the stone was returned damaged to me. Now my reputation is on trial. After years of serving my customers always right with honor and dignity. I don't need a fast buck. I do this beacuase I love to cut. I love to share it with others. Now I come on here to find a one sided story weaved well. This is the story. I am glad to list all correspondence and you can see why I am very relacutant on this situation. It was resolved when I agreed to the 20% restocking fee. And I was getting the shaft. But I went against policy trying to be nice. I am unwilling to take a total loss on something that was likely damaged by him. Whether he would admit to it or not. No one wants to lose 9k. This is a shame. I feel sorry for him. So I went against policy and accpeted his 20% restocking fee offer.

 

[gingercurls]

John,

I feel bad for you and for the buyer of the stone. I have purchased two stones from you. Unfortunately, both stones that I bought arrived to me damaged because they were not packed adequately for shipping. Both stones were packaged using the method that you described in your post. If you are saying that a stone could suffer this type of damage from a strong blow or being dropped, then it certainly could have occurred from being stressed during the shipping process. If the stone was pressed on or dropped, regardless of the cardboard and bubble wrap, during shipping the damage could have happened. Cardboard and bubble wrap aren't going to prevent that. You are also being highly irresponsible with not having insurance for such matters. You are selling very expensive stones and you are taking a huge gamble without having insurance as a vendor.

 

[GemRite]

I would like to know the 2 stones you returned for issue of scratching or damage. What was the name it was purchased under.

 

[gingercurls]

Clearly I am not going to reveal my name on a public forum. That would be quite unwise.

I think that you should use this experience to adjust your shipping practices in the future. Make sure that all of your items are properly insured and please ship them more carefully. Your cutting is great and it is a shame that your stones get damaged during the process of shipping.

 

[minousbijoux]

I am sorry this happened and think its a learning process for all of us.
Sellers: 1) no excuse not to have insurance; you do this for a living, we do not. 2) pack well. 3) describe your stone accurately.
Buyers: 1) scrutinize upon receipt, including making a video of the packaging, the state of the gem, etc. 2) contact the seller immediately if there is any discrepancy between description/seller's photos/videos and actual stone's appearance.

Fwiw, calling a crack a "veil" is not accurate if it is indeed a crack, and it appears deceptive to do so.

 

[digdeep]

John, my comments on this thread are based on my 'read' of the situation. There are a few things that bother me and I offer them for your consideration: A.) there is a crack in the stone referred to as a veil in your current listing---a crack is a crack and a veil is a veil. I've never seen the terms used interchangeably; B.) the use of the USPS (I assume) for transport yet no acknowledgement that the crack could have occurred during transit and handling by them--leaving neither the buyer nor seller as the 'guilty' party. It appeared that you were blaming the buyer when at least one other person had questionable packaging in a purchase from you and problems with the gems. Needless to say, I've had items damaged in transit and cringe when I get gems without a Priority box around them as they seem to handle those a bit more respectfully! Further, I've been told by the USPS that if I do not provide extra spatial protection (like a box) when mailing valuable items.......they will be treated the same as junk mail and sent through mechanical processing. This is not a gentle process and can crack/damage gems easily.
I am sorry that you are dealing with this on an expensive stone........ Ultimately, you need to decide if there is a solution you can find to salvage/learn from this ugly event. I'd suggest that you consider reaching out to the buyer and possibly offering another gem to him (of your choice-or better if you can offer him a choice between a few gems) as a peace offering in this situation with the restocking fee he sent. That would be a process between you and the buyer and no, I'm not suggesting another loss, but perhaps a gem that is beautiful in it's own right but has taken a little too long to giddy up down the road. So, enough of my thoughts.......I DO hope that there will be changes in packaging in the future as this is a potential bombshell in any transaction the way it currently appears----and in a more mechanized process of transit, it is a very real danger! Of course, this is all up to you..........

 

[minousbijoux]

Just an afterthought: John if you do come back again to respond, please do not use all bold and large font; it is unnecessarily forceful - as if you are yelling. Normal font is fine for us

 

[Saphgem]

This is a terribly unfortunate situation for both of you. To add to this-- "So doing this for 20 years I know what caused it. High impact against a hard surface. Can cause this type of inclusion. Often seen in stones that are mined using dynamite. Causes stress fractures."-- in this situation, the gem had been pre-exposed to extreme stress resulting in its state of greater vulnerability to fracturing when there is subsequent sufficient stress factors. I agree with gingercurls and digdeep that stress and mishandling during shipping could well be the reason for the cause and there was insufficient protection for such a high value item. Not isolating to this forum, it is not the first case of a gem received by a consumer already cracked due to shipping from any vendors. I agree with digdeep and minousbijoux's comments. The packaging and insurance needs to be relooked at, especially the packaging method for mahaha. I also agree that the vendors should take full responsibility of shipping damages instead of the consumer. It is not to blame why mahaha would think he's cheated on when he saw the new post reselling the same sapphire at a significant price without any description of a crack...I do feel for both parties though and hopefully it is a learning experience.

 

[arkieb1]

I've shipped stones all around the world and they can be damaged by both, bad packaging where the stone rattles around (I always try and pack them so that doesn't happen) and by people who get excited open the gem jars and the stone goes flying out and hits a table, a floor, a surface of a desk, counter or whatever even if it's only briefly and then claim they didn't do anything. It's a he said she said case with no winners.

Selling an internally cracked stone and not listing it's cracked that is the issue. I understand the vendor is now stuck with a stone worth a fraction of it's value but that doesn't mean the next person needs to now get stuck with something that isn't disclosed.

 

[GemRite]

Please go to my website and review the stone's comments. It is disclosed with photos. This has been the worst experience as a stone faceter yet. Doing this for many years and this one is a tough situation. I feel bad for the buyer and the financial loss for me is very big. We made an agreement and I thought it was completed. I will likely never resell the stone. I will have to eat the entire thing minus the little restocking fee that doesn't cover but only a small portion of the price I paid for the stone. And for those who are unfamiliar with how I ship and have commented on it. Well I have only had one stone cracked in transit before. A spinel and it was in the round plastic gem jar. The pressure of the stone against the plastic being thrown around in the box caused a crack in the stone. It was being shipped back to me for a refund. I knew what happened and just ate the cost. From that point on I never ship in a gem jar again. I wrap the stone up carefully with a lot of padding to prevent it getting hit against a hard object. As long as the stone doesn't come into contact with a hard surface damage can not occur. So hence I have never had an issue again. Until now. This time I double wrapped it for protection. So well it would have likely been able to take a hit from a hammer. So the thought it occurred in transit to him is unlikely especially since the little weak plastic gem jar that was only in a single wrap of bubble wrap was not damaged at all or packaging showed any signs of trauma. It has cost me a lot personally now my reputation is soiled and now this is will likely hurt my business. Not only the loss of the stone but now the loss of sales. I am moving forward and will not comment anymore about this situation.

 

[arkieb1]

I went to your site and I see it is disclosed I stand corrected. I'm sorry your name has been tarnished and that you now have to have the sapphire back again, but there is no way to prove who is or isn't at fault. I feel sorry for everyone involved, if it was damaged in transit and this has been an issue before then it probably should have had insurance. I do agree with you that it needs some type of knock against something to cause that type of damage, even if a stone is wrapped if it smacks against something, or if it had been taken out and fell or the package was somehow smacked against something.

 

[theredspinel]

Was it always disclosed on the website since relisting it (the crack), if so the starter of this thread needs to hand over an apology. If it's only been disclosed since gemrite started posting here and people kept pointing out the dishonesty...well then that's just dishonest. You shouldn't need to be coerced into being honest.

Since I'm too lazy to find the website and look up the stone (this is a brand new website for me) likely I'll never know which above scenario it was. Oh well.

 

[mochiko42]

Was it always disclosed on the website since relisting it (the crack), if so the starter of this thread needs to hand over an apology. If it's only been disclosed since gemrite started posting here and people kept pointing out the dishonesty...well then that's just dishonest. You shouldn't need to be coerced into being honest.

Since I'm too lazy to find the website and look up the stone (this is a brand new website for me) likely I'll never know which above scenario it was. Oh well.

When it was originally relisted, the veil was disclosed but no crack was mentioned in the description. You can see the cached page from May 23 at http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...mrite.com/home/237-blue-sapphire-483-cts.html
The mention of the crack was added more recently. Here is the current page
http://gemrite.com/home/237-blue-sapphire-483-cts.html

I have no skin in this game, and hope that the situation could be resolved, unfortunately it seems like a lose-lose for both parties. But, the truth and facts are important, too.

 

[theredspinel]

When it was originally relisted, the veil was disclosed but no crack was mentioned in the description. You can see the cached page from May 23 at http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...mrite.com/home/237-blue-sapphire-483-cts.html
The mention of the crack was added more recently. Here is the current page
http://gemrite.com/home/237-blue-sapphire-483-cts.html

I have no skin in this game, and hope that the situation could be resolved, unfortunately it seems like a lose-lose for both parties. But, the truth and facts are important, too.

Oh thank you mochiko. So just to be crystal clear gemrite initially relisted damaged stone with the damage called a veil. He then adapted the listing to remove the word veil and call it an internal fracture (i.e. a crack).

He has not apologised for relisting it dishonestly and thanked the community here for coercing him to be honest in his description... he has just done what he knows he has to do in order to not lose anymore customers and keep the community here happy.

There has been no admission of fault (for relisting initially incorrectly) and only displaying over and over just the persona of someone hurt and at no fault.

That's 3 strikes for me. Dishonesty upon dishonesty I can't handle from a gem dealer.

Yes you lost your money boohoo, but DONT be dishonest to take my money from me (a naive consumer) that could have gone on to buy the same stone. No sympathy from me.

 

[Tourmaline]

The current listing on loupetroop has no mention of the damage.

 

[PrecisionGem]

It's a bit hard to follow this thread, but it sounds as if the stone was shipped in a gem jar, which was was then wrapped. If the stone was to be damaged during shipping, I would think that the gem jar would have been crushed or broken, but it seems it was not.

 

[theredspinel]

It's a bit hard to follow this thread, but it sounds as if the stone was shipped in a gem jar, which was was then wrapped. If the stone was to be damaged during shipping, I would think that the gem jar would have been crushed or broken, but it seems it was not.

No it was shipped wrapped in bubble wrap and paper. The gem jar was also in the same package but empty because he's previously had an incident where a gem in a gem jar got damaged (whilst inside it) so he no longer believes in packaging gems in any hard surface. The fact the jar was unscratched but the gem damaged in post shows it wasn't damaged in post was what he was saying.

It's clearly very easy for one part of a package to be damaged and another not.

Hes trying to put doubt on the truthfulness of the op, but the problem is he's shown us all right here he can be dishonest (by relisting a stone with an internal crack as a veil). Then instead of owning up to it he just changed the listing. Then acted like that revised listing was the original listing all along!

I don't want to feel like I'm dealing with a used car salesman when I buy a gem online!!!

 

[mahaha]

I know it's hard being the op to comment on this without bias... but here are my thoughts.

For an internal fracture that large, I would imagine it would require somewhat of a large force to impact the stone. If the stone "flew" out of the packaging, would it not also chip/scratch? I can't be sure because I haven't studied the science of gemstones. However, since there are no scratches or chips, it may suggest that the stone was impacted inside the packaging. Secondly, when I package anything, usually you want to have some volume to help absorb the impact. Bubble wraps use "squishy" bubbles used to do that. I sometimes use crumpled up paper or even tissue paper in a box to help reduce movement as well as give it some padding upon impact. If the stone was wrapped tightly in cardboard and/or paper towel, the force of any impact would transfer directly to the stone because there is no room for absorption. Car bumpers are designed to crumble for that exact reason: in a car crash, the force (acceleration) is absorbed by the crumbling and not directly transferred to your body. The packaging was flat. I would imagine blowing some air inside the packaging (like a bag of chips) may have helped the situation.

This is an unfortunate situation. I did not oppose to the restocking fee initially, and I too, thought it was over. I only went to pursue the restocking fee when it was relisted as a veil (no crack), as well as considering the advice from fellow PS members. I agree that the dishonesty of the re-post made me question the whole situation. Either way, he fixed the ad so I'm satisfied with that. However, I also agree that he should have apologized and thanked the community here.

Now, it is my turn to once again thank everyone for their support, opinions, and advice. It has been a rough ride, but as before, I've made my peace and treat this as a fee for the learning experience. I will admit that the fee is a lot of money given my student salary, but my gf tells me, it's not worth stressing over money.

 

[Tourmaline]

Either way, he fixed the ad so I'm satisfied with that.

Once again, it is not fixed on Loupe Troop.

https://loupetroop.com/listings/loo...e/untreated-ceylon-blue-sapphire-4-dot-83-cts

 

[digdeep]

Mahaha, I wish you the best.......your girlfriend is a gem!