Find your diamond
Find your jewelry
shape
carat
color
clarity

Help Choosing Between 2 Diamonds

Diamond_Kal

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 7, 2016
Messages
13
Hi,

I am in the process of buying a diamond and would really appreciate some help.

I have found the following two diamonds, which should I go for?

Carat : 1.15
Cut : VVS-2, 4 Pinpoints next to the girdle
Color : D
Table : 56%
Depth : 61.2 %
Girdle : Medium faceted
Crown Angle : 34.0 Degrees
Pavilion Angle : 40.8 Degrees
Fluorescence : None
Cut Grade : Excellent
Polish : Excellent
Symmetry : Excellent
Price : $12,500


Diamond 2

Carat : 1.21
Cut : VVS-2, Looks like some cloud inclusions (or a lot of pinpoints close to each other) in the middle of the table.
Color : D
Table : 57%
Depth : 61.6 %
Girdle : Medium - Slightly Thick (faceted)
Crown Angle : 35.0 Degrees
Pavilion Angle : 40.8 Degrees
Fluorescence : None
Cut Grade : Excellent
Polish : Excellent
Symmetry : Excellent
Price : $14,000
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Re: Buying a Diamond

Are you looking at such high color and clarity for cultural reasons? I can't image spending over 12k and not getting 1.4 carats at least.

A fantastic F Vs2 will be functionally indistinguishable from those stones, especially to the naked eye you are looking at and get you a lot more size and balance. Or even a F VS1 if high color and clarity are important.

I like the first stone you picked more than the second though.


You need to request idealscope image of these, if you are interested. Both under your budget. One is a Vs2 and the other is a Vs1:

http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-8164590-1.45-carat-Round-diamond-F-color-VS2-Clarity.aspx?sku=8164590&utm_source=pricescope.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com

http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-8173176-1.45-carat-Round-diamond-F-color-VS1-Clarity.aspx?sku=8173176&utm_source=pricescope.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com
 

Diamond_Kal

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 7, 2016
Messages
13
Not for cultural reasons.

I'm just looking for a good diamond. One with good color, clarity (no inclusions showing) with excellent brilliance and fire.

So there is no difference between a D VVS2 and an F VS1 to the naked eye?

The second diamond with the link (the VS1 ) has a crown angle of 35.5 degrees, isn't this too steep?
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Diamond_Kal|1462662710|4028774 said:
Not for cultural reasons.

I'm just looking for a good diamond. One with good color, clarity (no inclusions showing) with excellent brilliance and fire.

So there is no difference between a D VVS2 and an F VS1 to the naked eye?

The second diamond with the link (the VS1 ) has a crown angle of 35.5 degrees, isn't this too steep?
A) Yes, functionally they will be the same. A D will be slightly whiter if viewed side by side and unset. But you are talking about 1/2 a shade and you wear a diamond on the hand alone or with sidestones of the same or similar color. Please see Round Diamond 101 below for explanation. Clarity, as long as the stone is eyeclean will be indistinguishable to naked eye with an SI1 to an IF, so yes, you are absolutely fine with eyeclean VS.

B) The crown height is high, which means there is risk of small amount leakage. Which is why you need an idealscope image. If the idealscope shows no leakage though, you are fine. The angles need to all work together, it's not just one number that matters, it's all of them together for performance. The other angles are great and the stone passes the HCA so it is in the right zone for excellent performance and has a high probability of showing no leakage at all.

Round Diamonds 101:

The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is.
How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king.
No other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut. An ideal H will out white a poorly cut F. With round diamonds even a GIA triple Excellent is not enough. And you must stick to GIA and AGS only (HPD in Europe is good as well). EGL is a bad option: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/[/URL]
So how to we ensure that we have the right angles and cutting to get the light performance we want?
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut
Well one method is to start with a GIA Ex, and then apply the HCA to it. YOU DO NOT USE HCA for AGS0 stones generally, though you can. In general, AGS0 trumps HCA though as one examines the actual stone and the other does not.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor
The HCA is a rejection tool. Not a selection tool. It uses 4 data points to make a rudimentary call on how the diamond may perform.
If the diamond passes then you know that you are in the right zone in terms of angles for light performance. Under 2 is a pass. Under 2.5-2.1 is a maybe. 2.6 and over is a no. No score 2 and under is better than any other.
Is that enough? Not really.

So what you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone.
That's what an idealscope image does. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope
It shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return. That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. BGD,BE, James Allen, GOG, HPD, ERD and WF do.

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool'. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA stone you need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.

Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium. Some AGS0's are better than others though, so pay attention to any ASET or IS provided.

In general with rounds, you will want a table 60% or less. A depth between 59 and 62.4. Crown angle 33.5-35.5. Pavilion Angle: 40.6-40.9 (there is a little give on this). And the crown and pavilion angles must be complimentary which is what the HCA checks for you.

ON COLOR:

It is important to remember is that color is graded FACE DOWN. Where there is NO light return. Not face up where there is light return and refraction. You wear diamonds set. FACE UP.

Within one color grade, even the labs can't agree on the color grades of stones and something could be a "high" H or a "low" E. So... no. Not really. Within 2 color grades it is hard. Not impossible. But very hard. And it gets harder once set. If you are talking ideal rounds, or any stone with ideal light return and no sharp corners it gets harder still because the ideal light return masks body color.

Generally we say to be conservative stay above H in a round. But MANY people have happily bought white I or even J diamonds when trying to eek out a little more size.

This is how I think of it.

Ever gotten one of those HUGE paint fan decks? Where there are literally 100s of colors of whites? And when they are RIGHT next to each other you can TOTALLY tell that one is bluer/colder and one is a bit warmer and which one is one is TOTALLY warmer. One there's one that's slightly greener. One that's slightly pinker? But really. They are all white?

Then you pick one after agonizing over this white or that white and when it's on the walls and people are like: Oh. You painted again. And it's STILL white. Great.

And you're all... BUT it's BLUE white. Or it's a WARM white now. It used to be ____ white. It's TOTALLY different.

It's like that. You are talking about shades of white. D is colder... J is warmer. But it's all white.

YES. If you have an accurately graded F and an H THAT HAVE THE SAME PERFORMANCE you are going to be able to tell them apart when you compare them side by side. Just like you would be able to tell if you painted your walls a warm white, but painted the crown molding a cold/straight white. But both are STILL white.

I want you notice all the qualifiers thought. I'm talking about stones with the SAME performance. An ideal H will out white an F that has compromised light performance from a poor cut.

NOTHING impacts the appearance of a diamond as much as cut. CUT is king.

You want the shinest whitest and brightest diamond out there: Cut is King. No other factor, not color or clarity or anything else impacts how white bright an shiny a stone is.

ON CLARITY:
http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Clarity/SI/ and http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Clarity/VS/ Generally we say that eyeclean SI1 and VS2 are as high as you need to go with round brilliants, have your vendor check the diamond for this. VS1 will always be eyeclean, but they do cost more and an eyeclean SI1 and a VS1 will look the same to the unaided eye.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,630

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
What you need to know about superideals versus GIA 3X: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/likelihood-of-finding-a-signature-super-ideal-diamond.174235/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/likelihood-of-finding-a-signature-super-ideal-diamond.174235/[/URL]


The key is to make an informed decision.

Do you have a Hearts on Fire dealer near you? Leave your wallet at home and call them and make an appointment. Tell them you are interested in 1.5 carat sized stone in D-G color and go see for yourself what you think on color. That's the best way.
 

Diamond_Kal

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 7, 2016
Messages
13
Thanks,

Its nice to have a hearts an arrow but honestly I think (correct me if I'm wrong) if the diamond is within the right dimensions of depth, table, crown angle and pavilion angle, then they should have similar brilliance, fire and scintillation.

Now I'm thinking I should consider a clean VS1, F with correct dimensions (even if its not a heart an arrow) but larger stone.

That second link which diamond seeker provided seems interesting but if I find something similar without the hearts and arrows it might be cheaper.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Yes, GIA 3X's have more selection and do cost less, generally than AGS0 Hearts and Arrows stones.

I recommend you get an idealscope image on both stones I picked for you. Both the Vs2 and the Vs1. And then we can go from there. Put them on hold.
 

Diamond_Kal

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 7, 2016
Messages
13
Thanks to everyone . You've been very helpful especially Gypsy.

How about size? Is it really noticeable?

I mean from a 1.15 ct to a 1.4 ct we are talking about 0.4 mm difference at most.
Or lets say between a 1.23 ct and a 1.38 ct.

Looking at a ruler right now, 1 mm is barely noticeable.

What do you think ?

I'm just trying to balance all specs of the diamond to get the most with regards to my budget.
 

piano

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 12, 2016
Messages
100
Not so much between 1.23 & 1.38 but of course, big gap between 1.15 & 1.4.
Do you really see the difference between 3.2GHz-CPU and 3.4GHz-CPU computers? I don't think anyone can unless they are put next to each other, running the same stress test and read the benchmark.
Same principle applied here with diamond's color & clarity.
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Messages
2,175
Diamond_Kal|1462696899|4028914 said:
How about size? Is it really noticeable?
I mean from a 1.15 ct to a 1.4 ct we are talking about 0.4 mm difference at most.
Or lets say between a 1.23 ct and a 1.38 ct.
Looking at a ruler right now, 1 mm is barely noticeable.
What do you think ?
I'm just trying to balance all specs of the diamond to get the most with regards to my budget.
In the world of diamonds, 1mm difference is hugely monstrous (visually and price-wise). The table size difference between 6mm diamond and 7mm diamond is about 36%. 3^2*3.14 vs (3.5)^2*3.14. After all, that's about 1.3c vs 0.8c.
Some people can detect even 0.1mm difference. For me, 0.2mm is noticeable.

Between 1.15c and 1.4c, the surface area difference is roughly about 11% ~12%.
Between 1.23c and 1.38c, depending on the depth, diameter difference can reach 0.2mm which translates into 5~6% crown surface area difference.

5% and 0.2mm may sound small. But because an ideal-cut diamond provides alot of light return and sparkle, every single 0.1mm does counts, and it may or may not be noticeable and/or significant to you.

Like Gypsy said, I also recommend you visit a local store and see some stones of different color and carat weight in person.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Great question! Yes, in the world of diamonds, particularly in the under 2 carat range with rounds there is a huge visually noticable difference at .4mm. Material and visual threshold is .2mm we say. I know we have a few good visual aids, I will see if I can find them, it's been a while though since Ive needed them. As noted above, best thing is to go see for yourself in person if possible.
 

Diamond_Kal

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 7, 2016
Messages
13
Ok,

I have gone around the shops here looking at different diamonds.

Got a better understanding of colors, sizes and clarity.

One thing that was really awkward, shops here mainly have VS1's and 1.0 ct and it is very rare to find anything higher than that.
Symmetry of the diamonds are never within the range (Table, Depth, Crown and Pavilion angle) but they still have some nice brilliance and fire on them. There is no clue here on what a hearts and arrows diamond is or how dimensions play a role is brilliance and fire.
This is pretty weird since it is a huge Gold market.

When I asked a salesperson why does Diamond "A" have more sparkle to it than Diamond "B" his answer was because its a D color.

To top that off, prices are at least 1.5 - 2 times the prices of similar diamonds that can bought online. (Seems like a Business opportunity for me here, whos in ? lol)

Anyhow, I have come to the conclusion that there is not much of a visual difference between a 1.20 ct and 1.31 ct diamond. F color should be ok and a clarity of VS1 to VVS2. The rest will depend on the cut making sure its within the favorable range for the table, depth, crown and pavilion angles. I have shifted away from the 2 diamonds I had at the beginning of thread.
 

Diamond_Kal

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 7, 2016
Messages
13
Gypsy,

thankx for the visual.

look at the 1.23 and 1.4 ct diamonds which that are sitting between the fingers, the size is barely noticeable I believe unless you put them next to each other.
So going down form a 1.3 to a 1.2 would not be noticeable at all or from a 1.21 to a 1.15 ( in regards to the first 2 diamonds I posted about in this thread).
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Ok. Tell me exactly what you want and we can find it for you. :wavey:
 

Diamond_Kal

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 7, 2016
Messages
13
Thankx Gypsy,

I would like to look for it on my own and get some advice on the diamond before purchasing it. Since I'm buying it for her I would like to spend my efforts on finding her the right diamond. Would really appreciate your advice on diamonds that I will post here.

It will also be a learning process for me.

What do you think of the attached? How would you compare it to a hearts and arrows diamonds? Would it have the same brilliance, fire and scintillation? or at least would the difference be very negligible ? I trust your expertise. :dance:

If compared to this hearts and arrows in the below link which is around $2,500 US more expensive than the diamond in the GIA attached report. Which one would you go for? The one with the GIA attachment is from Blue Nile and as you know they might not provide any Idealscope or ASET images.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3653217.htm


I think this is an ideal example of similar cut, color, clarity, symmetry, polish etc..... just a very minimal change in angles and one of them not being branded as a heart and arrows.

...........................................................
 

Attachments

istase2000

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
328
Since bluenile have a good return policy, you could purchase yourself a beginner idealscope and view the stone yourself or post the images here. If it's not up to scratch you could return it. GIA rounds their numbers so you cannot be sure about the performance just from the certificate.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
istase2000|1462834148|4029499 said:
Since bluenile have a good return policy, you could purchase yourself a beginner idealscope and view the stone yourself or post the images here. If it's not up to scratch you could return it. GIA rounds their numbers so you cannot be sure about the performance just from the certificate.
This is the issue with GIA stones.

And I totally applaud you for wanting to do this yourself. :appl: :appl: I'll be happy to advise.

That stone is lovely. Just amazing. With Blue Nile stick to their Signature line stones. They are superior and come with a G-Cal evaluation. And they can get you images easily.

You should also look at Brian Gavin. I highly recommend them as a vendor. And High Performance Diamonds.

Do you know what type of setting the wearer wants?
 

Diamond_Kal

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 7, 2016
Messages
13
That stone is lovely. Just amazing. With Blue Nile stick to their Signature line stones. They are superior and come with a G-Cal evaluation. And they can get you images easily.

You should also look at Brian Gavin. I highly recommend them as a vendor. And High Performance Diamonds.

Do you know what type of setting the wearer wants?
The issue with Brian Gavin, there is not much selection although I believe he would have the best diamonds out there. At least guaranteed diamonds not the same as with Blue Nile.

Shes looking for a Halo Design ring, I like the one below but a bit expensive.

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/e...micro-pave-18k-white-gold-5497w18/?build=ring

.......
 
Be a part of the community It's free, join today!
    Three-stone engagement ring upgrade
    Three-stone engagement ring upgrade
    Vintage OEC Bracelet
    Vintage OEC Bracelet
    June’s Birthstone Trinity
    June’s Birthstone Trinity

Need Something Special?

Get a quote from multiple trusted and vetted jewelers.

Holloway Cut Advisor



Diamond Eye Candy

Click to view full-size image.
Top