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Likelihood of finding a 'signature' super ideal diamond?

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by lamenramen, Apr 14, 2012.

  1. lamenramen
    Rough_Rock

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    by lamenramen » Apr 14, 2012
    Hello,

    I am under the impression that signature hearts and arrows, or super ideal, Triple X stones, AGS 000 (or insert your own top of the line stone name) are pretty nice.

    And I know that the Whiteflash A Cut Above, a Bryan Gavin Signature diamond, are just branded names.

    If I buy say, a Whiteflash A Cut Above, am I just paying a premium b/c they are doing the 'legwork' for me? Could I find an identical diamond, with the same performance by just plugging in proportions to an HCA when searching through loose diamonds online--thereby saving alot of money?

    I see some stuff about how A Cute Above diamond is roughly the top 10% of an AGS ideal diamond. This says to me that if I find an AGS 000, or a GIA XXX stone, this would just get this stone in the nomination process for being A Cut Above. And 90% of these stones would be rejected. I'm not sure what the consensus is if people can see visible differences in A Cut Above stones, or if it's really more a mind thing. That is, AGS 000 should be more than enough visually. But there's no way that I can see one of these super amazing stones in person (I think) so how will I know if it's worth it?

    I also had this idea that all of the best of the best, are going to be sifted through by these online vendors and be given the 'signature' label and the added markup, so trudging through loose diamonds won't really turn up anything.

    Is it best to think of these signature diamonds as a shortcut to the top of the line for the risk averse, lazy searchers, or really rich folks? Or are these diamonds of a certain quality that I'm not going to find unless I pay up? It appears that the markup could be 33% higher.
     
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  2. Gypsy
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    by Gypsy » Apr 14, 2012
    Both WF and BGD signature lines have cutting standards developed by Brian Gavin (who helped start Whiteflash then left to start his own company) and strict precision cutting hearts and arrows faceting. They work with cutting houses that specialize in this kind of cutting and only accept a slim number of very perfect stones to brand. Infinity, another super ideal house, is a cutting house that cuts all their own diamonds in house, so they take it even one step further.

    That's why you pay the premium. They are the cream of the crop diamonds.

    Yes, there are hearts and arrows diamonds available elsewhere. James Allen and GOG for example both carry generic hearts and arrows and most of these are precision cut (well, GOG's are precision cut, JA True Hearts aren't as strictly vetted and some are not 'true' hearts and arrows'). GOG costs the charges the same, if not more than WF and BGD, for their hearts and arrows. And JA True Hearts come at a premium.

    Hearts on Fire also cuts precision hearts and arrows, they are also referred to as "Wallets on Fire" for a reason.

    WHY? Because the level of skill that it takes to cut these, and the amount of rough that's lost is expensive. Period. SO if you want a diamond cut to that level. No, it doesn't just happen. And yes you will pay a premium for it. Even on ebay these diamonds command a premium close to retail. It's much cheaper to cut a one carat diamond poorly, both in terms of the carat weight retained in the final stone and in terms of the level of skill in cutting you pay for.

    The better question is: Do you need that level of precision cutting to get a beautiful stone with ideal light return.

    And the answer is no. You can get a 'near ideal' stone that misses the super ideal mark but that to the naked eye and untrained eye will be virtually indistinguishable from a perfect precision cut stone. You will still pay a premium because you are still talking about a very select group of stones, but the premium is significantly less than the "super ideal' premium.

    There are many AGS 0 stones that aren't hearts and arrows. And there are even more GIA EX/EX stones that aren't hearts and arrows. Many of these are still gorgeous diamonds with amazing light return. (Not all GIA ex/ex will have ideal light return though so you will need to screen these on a case by case basis)

    Brian Gavin even has a 'near ideal' line with Florescence: Brian Gavin Blue. You will see MANY of us recommend (and also own) stones from this line because the pricing is reduced because of they aren't super ideals, just near that, and because they have Florescence. And each stone is individually examined by BGD to make sure the Florescence doesn't have any detrimental effect on the stone. About Florescence: https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-flourescence

    It's also important to note that having hearts and arrows faceting does NOT guarantee ideal light return at all. Light return is a function of the stone's angles and it is possible to get the pattern of hearts and arrows but still miss the angles needed for optimum light return.

    So... if you want to save money and get a gorgeous stone that will knock your socks off... but you want a price break and don't want to compromise too much on any one thing. BGD's Blue line is one we highly recommend because the flourecense plus the near ideal faceting and the AGS0 light return on these stones means that you get a fabulous but budget friendly stone.

    Or you can look on your own for a stone that either has and AGS0 light return lab report (plus Florescence, though you will have to ask for it to be screened for negative effects) or a stone that is a GIA Ex/Ex with an HCA under two and an idealscope image that shows great light return from any other vendor you chose to work with.
     
  3. Gypsy
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    by Gypsy » Apr 14, 2012
    Too late to edit so I want to clarify.

    BGD and WF and Infinity and Hearts on Fire and all the 'super ideals" aren't just the hearts and arrows pattern. That's not enough (which I said above) they combine that patterning with the correct angles for ideal light return (and with some of them even ideal light return plus patterning isn't enough to qualify for their signature lines you have to have the correct TYPE of ideal light return that balances colored and white light perfectly according to the standards of the brand).

    That's why I said that near 'ideal' is the way to go. The half of that you don't want to give up is the ideal light return. The patterning half though you don't have to have at all and still get a stellar diamond.

    This is how I think of it:
    Super ideal means beyond ideal. They beyond part is the patterning. The ideal part is the light return. "Near ideal" is a misnomer. It's really a diamond with ideal light return but without the perfect patterning. Still the term we use on here is "near ideal".

    If you really want to do your research and get as close to a branded line in performance:
    You will also want to research the angle combos for light return to know what type of light return balance you are looking at. Ideal is great. But for some people even that isn't enough... some have a preference for white light, others want a perfect balance, and others prefer something else.
     
  4. Phoenix
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    by Phoenix » Apr 14, 2012
    Ditto everything Gypsy has said.

    Let me add to what Gypsy's said: I've compared in person my BGD super-ideal cut stones (even their "blue" line) to other AGS triple 0 diamonds, even those touted to be super-ideal cut. Let me tell you, to *my* eyes, my BGD diamonds blow those other stones out of the water and ....more....And that's why I'm willing to pay a premium for these babies!! :tongue: :twirl: :love: :

    But sure, unless you're a cut nut like some of us here on PS, there's no point in paying a premium for these branded stones we cut nuts here on PS covet. Most people (I don't know the percentage, but would guess something like 99% of people) IRL can't tell the difference.
     
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  5. Enerchi
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    by Enerchi » Apr 14, 2012
    Gypsy - THANK YOU so much for that wonderful detailed and informative explanation :appl: :appl: :appl:
     
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  6. diamondseeker2006
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    by diamondseeker2006 » Apr 14, 2012
    I agree with Gypsy on almost everything, but I would further clarify one thing. Ideal cut is ideal cut, not "near ideal". Only a fraction of ideal or excellent cut stones qualify as "hearts and arrows". BG's Blue line are almost all AGS Ideal Cut as are most of WF's Expert Selection line and GOG's Premium line (some are GIA EX but have AGS Ideal light performance). But only BG Signature, WF ACA, and GOG Superior-Hearts and Arrows are both ideal cut AND meet the qualifications of hearts and arrows..the top of the ideal cut diamonds. So what the designation needs to be is hearts and arrows ideal vs. ideal cut. Many ideal cut stones are near hearts and arrows and a regular person would not be able to tell them apart.

    I have had both kinds, H&A ideal cut and ideal non-H&A, and the difference is very hard to detect. I do think it is mostly a mental thing to know you have the best of the best. I know I have more of a tendency to regret not going with the best because there is satisfaction built in to that. I am speaking with experience with all three vendors as I have had a H&A and non-H&A diamond from GOG, I have had 4 ACA stones from WF for earrings, my daughter has a WF Premium Select diamond, and I have a diamond that was recut by BG.

    If you don't need the mental aspect of knowing you are getting "the best" and the recipient of the diamond has no interest of knowledge of cut quality and the budget is limited (which is true of most of us), then there really is no reason not to buy from GOG Premium, WF Expert Selection or Premium Select (good buys there), or BG's Blue line. They will all appear to be nearly the same in visual appearance as the top stones would. Because WF and BG have their own stones cut to specific parameters, however, I find them to be the best place to match pairs of stones for earrings (or 3 or 5 stone rings) because they have a plentiful supply, usually.
     
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  7. atp223
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    by atp223 » Apr 14, 2012
    I would like to add a further caveat, that SOME bgd blues only miss the "signature" qualifications because of their fluorescence. We looked at a bgd blue and a signature bgd stone at the appraiser's office last summer (Martin Fuller, such a nice guy!). And the particular bgd blue we were looking at, according to Martin, had "just as nice, if not nicer," hearts and arrows, as compared to the signature stone. I know they don't market the blue line that way, but some of them are cut just as nicely! And they're a lot cheaper!!
     
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  8. greenm75
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    by greenm75 » Apr 14, 2012
    I have in my very hands at this moment a Whiteflasth ACA and a Whiteflash Expert Selection. I purposefully selected the WF ES because of the diamond geometry, the only reason it missed the ACA was because of the Crown angle of 33.6, Table was 54, pav 40.8, lower girdle half 77, depth 60.9. I asked friends and colleagues to look at these stones side by side and almost all chose the ES over the ACA. Mind you they are both AGS 000! I struggled with this because I couldn't fathom the ACA being outperformed by the ES, however, eyes don't lie! Besides on closer inspection the ES table of 54% vs the ACA table of 57.6% represented a possible difference in fire? In any event this is an example that shows two stones graded by AGS as 000 and one meeting the standards of WF ACA , another narrowly missing the Registered trademark, but by perhaps twenty of my friends 18 selected the ES! They said , both beautiful, but that one (ES) just sparkles more!
     
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  9. Christina...
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    by Christina... » Apr 14, 2012
    This is a fantastic thread and IMO should be a sticky in the FAQ section. :bigsmile:
     
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  10. stargurl78
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    by stargurl78 » Apr 14, 2012
    What a great question from the OP and great responses too. Very helpful and interesting thread!
     
    


    


  11. CRYSTAL24K
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    by CRYSTAL24K » Jul 26, 2014
    Great thread! Very informative.
     
  12. Gypsy
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    by Gypsy » Sep 30, 2014
    Okay so updating this thread with context to explain how to USE the knowledge contained in here:

    :read:

    YES you can tell the difference between a BGD Signature or an Infinity and a GIA EX/EX with a fanastic ASET/IS combo or a 'regular' AGS0 without the precision faceting when you see them side by side, and definitely once your eyes are trained. And even if they are untrained some times and not next to a less precisely cut stone.

    It's like saying... will I be able to see the difference between a D and a G. Well, YES. Your eyes work, presumably. I am not color sensitive (I don't generally let color bother me and appreciate each color for what it is), but of course I can SEE color difference, quite well actually.

    And even a novice can spot the difference between a D and a G when they are side by side, such as in a tray of 5 stones. Just like most people can see the difference between a GIA Ex with a great idealscope image and a perfect Infinity when side by side. Why? Because there IS a difference.

    That's not the issue for me.

    The "Super Ideal" issue is just like color to me. YES, I can see the difference between a D and a G. But... does it have to bother me? No. I can appreciate the G for what it is. And I don't NEED to buy a D. Even though there IS a difference.

    Not everyone can afford a D. In fact MOST of the time on PS we don't push colorless at all, let ALONE D. Why? Because buying a diamond is about BALANCING the 4 C's.

    Not everyone can afford a D IF Super ideal in the PERFECT size. So the question then becomes: what CAN you compromise on without compromising TOO MUCH.

    That's where that thread I posted comes in. YES, super ideals are fabulous. D's are fabulous too. Do you NEED a super ideal to get a fantastic looking stone? NO. You DO NOT. Same as you do not need a D to get a fantastic looking stone.

    You wear diamonds on the hand ALONE or with stones of similar cut quality and color.

    You don't wear them in a tray next to a Super Ideal. Just like you don't wear an H next to a D. Why? Because there is a difference, of course. Now, does that mean the H is not a gorgeous color? NO. Does that mean the GIA Ex with a great idealscope is not a beautiful stone? No.

    The issue is... what is the acceptable level of compromise on CUT QUALITY when you are BALANCING the 4 C's.

    My answer, and MY OPINION (which is what this thread is) is that you do not NEED a super ideal. Just like you don't need a D. Yes, if you CAN afford it... get one. But all too often on these boards people are faced with balancing size, color and BUDGET. And SOMETHING has to give.

    Super ideals cost more. Often a LOT more per carat. And I'm not of the opinion that someone should buy a 1 carat J Super ideal over an H GIA 3Ex with a fantastic idealscope because the difference between a Super Ideal and a stone without precision faceting but with 'ideal' light return is GREAT ENOUGH to justify the color drop. Again it's about BALANCE.

    For MOST consumers: a GIA Ex with an excellent idealscope/ASET performance is going to be a fantastic stone AND will allow them to balance color and budget BETTER, than someone telling them they have to have a Super Ideal. Because IMO, telling someone they HAVE to HAVE a super ideal is just as INCORRECT as telling them they HAVE to have a D because it's the best.

    I always try to explain this to people AND encourage them to go see (WHEN POSSIBLE) super ideals (like Hearts on Fire) next to great GIA Ex stones to decide what THEY personally NEED for themselves. Just like I try to encourage people to go in and see what their personal color tolerances are. BUT, it is not always POSSIBLE that that they do so. So I try to provide them with as much information as possible.

    Not everyone has to have or CAN have the best in all categories of the 4 C's. It's about BALANCE. That's what the thread I linked to you is about. It's about differentiating between LIKE TO HAVE and HAVE TO HAVE. Would I like to have a D Super ideal. Of course. Do I HAVE to have one to get a fantastic and beautiful stone? No.

    I hope that explains the issue better. :wavey:
     
  13. Gypsy
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    by Gypsy » Sep 30, 2014
    To amend what I said. Price difference isn't the main issue between Super Ideals and non-super ideals:

    I think the issue is more of availability and price. Let me explain.

    There is much more STOCK in GIA Ex/Ex with great numbers/ light performance. So on any given day if someone has a 10K budget and wants eyeclean and G] I can find them just about any color or clarity combo in a GIA Ex/Ex with numbers that are likely to have great idealscopes.

    So I can sit there and pick and chose between 15-20 GIA Ex/ Ex stones. And if the SIZE is the more important factor for that poster I can add additional filters such as requiring Fluorescence to bring down the price. And even moving from a Tolk to a 60/60 (with great numbers and from an vendor with IS availability) to bring down the price further.

    And I can squeak out more size by playing with those factors and can go from a G SI1 Tolk to a 60/60 and Strong Blue to eek out 15 more points and .2mm in size. For example. Or I MAY get lucky and find a nice eyeclean SI2 (without the strong blue) with twinning wisps that do not impact the performance and eek out more size that way. And if I get REALLY lucky, that Si2 might be a 60/60.

    With super ideals stock is limited. So while empirically the price difference per carat difference is slight between an eyeclean GIA Ex/Ex/Ex G SI2 with non-overblue Fluorescence with great idealscope and a Super Ideal G SI2 with non-overblue Fluorescence , as your own research bears out... due to the limited availability, I can't FIND a Super Ideal eyeclean G SI2 non-overblue with Fluorescence. So in a Super Ideal I LIKELY have to settle for a G Si1 WITHOUT Fluorescence. OR settle for an H color. Or settle for a Vs2. Because that's all that's available that day. And I'm probably only going to be able to find THREE stones with those specs MAX.

    And THAT is why price difference is going to be substantial compared to the G Si2 60/60 I found... listed at 3 different vendor sites so I can pick and chose what vendor I want (one with an idealscope) AND ask for a price match.

    So really it's not an issue of price per carat where EVERYTHING else is the same EXCEPT the precision of the cut. The issue is due to the availability I'm going to have a LOT more selection and can play with a LOT more factors to IMPACT the price of the stone in order to get a better VALUE for the buyer.

    Does that make sense?

    GIA stones, due to availability of stock are often better values.
     
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  14. Bienca
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    by Bienca » Oct 1, 2014
    Bravo to Gypsy :clap:
     
  15. anamaria
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    by anamaria » Apr 27, 2015
    Just wanted to say this has been hands down the most helpful post on the weeks and weeks of reading I've done on round diamonds.

    Can I just clarify one thing...does this mean any diamond that is graded with AGS 000 will be beautiful and that buying them without IS and just purely the AGS report showing ASET info that I'm going to get a beautiful stone irrespective of the H&A pattern?

    I'll be honest I don't need the best of the best in cut, IRL i find it very hard to tell the difference (with my uneducated untrained eye) which is why id rather go a G or H near ideal and get the size i'd like rather than sacrificing size and to go half a carat smaller and go super ideal.

    Just looking for clarification :)
     
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  16. Texas Leaguer
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    by Texas Leaguer » Apr 27, 2015
    A couple of things to keep in mind:
    One, an AGS0 (Ideal) light performance grade is the result of sophisticated ray tracing analysis of a 3D model of the actual diamond mathematically calculating the contribution of every facet and assessing brightness, leakage,dispersion (fire), and contrast. Even though there is not an assessment for optical precision (H&A), you can be confident that the diamond has the right ingredients to be a high performer. You can think of the AGS0 as the light performance "engine' and the facet precision as being the "tuning" of that engine.

    Two, it is important to recognize that light performance can be affected by other factors such as clarity features. So an AGS0 grade (or GIA Ex) can only deliver the performance that the material allows. For this reason it is important to pay attention to clarity aspects , particularly in the Si range.
     
  17. diamondseeker2006
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    by diamondseeker2006 » Apr 27, 2015
    I think you mean you want a near H&A and not a near ideal cut, right? But my answer is that I have definitely seen a few AGS Ideal cuts that I would never buy. This is why actual vendor images are so important. As I may have said earlier in this thread, while my personal preference is for superideal cut, I think there are some great ideal cut stones in collections such as WF Expert Selection and Premium Select and GOG Premium Ideal Cut. Their light return images help me determine the best ones. Magnified images of the stone are also helpful when clarity is below VS, as Bryan has mentioned.
     
  18. Texas Leaguer
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    by Texas Leaguer » Apr 27, 2015
    It's true that even with AGS0 and as strict as that standard is, there is a range. So where you fall on cut quality depends on how much emphasis you put on that aspect and what is available that meets all of your preferences.
    You can sort of look at the spectrum like this:

    1) GIA EX - broad category, rounded and averaged measurements matching predefined grade
    2) AGS0 - stricter standard, diamond-specific light performance based analysis
    3) Top light performance imaging (ASET, Idealscope)
    4) Top Precision (H&A)

    As you move from 1 to 4 you improve your chances of getting optimal light performance. Where you draw the line is a personal decision based upon multiple considerations.
     
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  19. JoshuaNiamehr
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    by JoshuaNiamehr » Apr 27, 2015
    What you're looking for DOES exist - there are a good amount of diamonds that would qualify for AGS 000, H&A with perfect optical symmetry. Most overseas polishers will send their diamonds to GIA regardless of such because of the reputation GIA has worldwide. Just using the HCA calculator wont get you there typically. Do a lot of research, its your best friend!
     
  20. solgen
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    by solgen » Apr 27, 2015

    Where would HCA scores fit in?
     
  21. Texas Leaguer
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    by Texas Leaguer » Apr 27, 2015
    HCA is a tool similar to Gia Facetware. Limited number of inputs, rounded and averaged, returning results from a table of predefined grades. The HCA has some different assumptions built in that will screen for some of the poor proportion sets that GIA allows in the top grade. It is particularly useful for vetting out GIA stones. Not very relevant for use on AGS Ideal since those stones have been individually put through ray tracing analysis.
     
  22. emmebee
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    by emmebee » Apr 27, 2015
    I would say between 1 and 2 - a way to narrow the GIA EX to a more desirable subset of GIA EX.
     
  23. Yang Kin
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    by Yang Kin » Oct 11, 2017
    The table question - This is an interesting one. I am also looking forward to a reply regarding this matter. One thing for sure is that I have a similar experience with the table size. I am comparing a Lazare Ideal vs a WF ACA. Below are the specs.

    Lazare Ideal
    Diameter: 4.83 x 4.86 x 2.99 MM
    Total Depth: 61.7%
    Table Size: 55.9%
    Crown Angle: 34.5%
    Crown Height: 15.3%
    Pavilion Angle: 40.9%
    Pavilion Depth: 43.3%

    WF ACA
    Diameter: 5.45 x 5.50 x 3.39 MM
    Total Depth: 61.8%
    Table Size: 56.3%
    Crown Angle: 34.7%
    Crown Height: 15.2%
    Pavilion Angle: 40.8
    Pavilion Depth: 43.1

    Using a handphone torchlight looking at both , the ACA looks brighter compared to the Lazare, when both diamond is on stationary mode, the Lazare gives out a more distinct fire compared to the ACA, also, when both diamonds move, the scintillation on the Lazare is just more mesmerizing compared to the ACA. You will probably enjoy the dancing light within the diamond.

    Theoretically, the crown angle of the ACA is steeper than the Lazare's so the ACA should be better in terms of fire. But then, I see otherwise. I came up with another possible reason that the ACA is returning so much light that it masks the fire, since it looks brighter in comparison to the Lazare, but this is just a guess and I need someone to confirm if this could be true.

    While feeling perplexed, and my wife say might due to the table size (she was probably referring to the size of the diamond instead of the table because the Lazare is a 40-pointer, while the ACA is a 50-pointer... or maybe she really knows which table I am referring to! :twisted2:). Anyway, I am starting to look at diamonds that starts from 53% and at most 56% table width combo with a steep crown angle, let's say from 34.6 - 35! Why such table width? This is because I am using Black by Brian Gavin as a reference. I noticed a lot of the diamonds in this signature series has a table below 56%(but well, I could be wrong too, so take it with a pinch of salt). Also, if I open the certificate of Black by Brian Gavin diamonds, I noticed that the ASET image of the report seems to show a "blue burst" in the middle of the ASET. Blue represents contrast, and I think this contrast may possibly mean a more lively diamond. Please note that this is just my guess and I could be wrong, so do correct me if I am wrong, for anyone who is reading this. If you are able to answer by doubts, I will be a very happy man. :whistle:
     
  24. 824jagdds
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    by 824jagdds » Oct 11, 2017
    @Gypsy that was great. One of the best posts I have read on the subject. I am trying to find balance and it is very difficult. The main thing I am struggling with is how much I can compromise on Cut.

    Is an AGS 000 good enough or do I need the fine tuning of H&A?

    I am now more confused as to the role of the H&A and what REAL LIFE difference it makes.

    Is the ASET scope the "most" important thing to look at?

    What does a less than perfect Hearts image mean?

    Thank you everyone for your help, this is such an awesome group. This process is addictive, it is such a wonderful puzzle to try to solve for oneself.
     
  25. Karl_K
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    by Karl_K » Oct 11, 2017
    lighting is the answer.
    Lighting is more favorable to the smaller virtual facets of the smaller stone.
    Viewed in other lighting that could easily reverse.
     
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  26. Karl_K
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    by Karl_K » Oct 11, 2017
    Diamonds appearance is so lighting dependent that multiple lighting conditions are required before any conclusion can be drawn.
    For example 2 people, one wearing white one wearing blue will have a different experience with a diamond in the same lighting. With some diamonds it is really minor with others it could be a large difference.
     
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  27. gm89uk
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    by gm89uk » Oct 11, 2017
    What were the LGF%?
     
  28. newjourney
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    by newjourney » Oct 11, 2017
    @824jagdds - I can only share what I've learned... Going with an ideal cut AGS000 is a good start and if budget allows, consider H&A. Whether or not H&A is a requisite for the best light performance remains controversial, meaning real life impact by H&A is not always noticeable.

    ASET is a very useful tool to assess for light return from different angles, but not if you're interested in H&A. Of course, if you're making an online purchase it's good to scrutinize the stone using all imaging tools, i.e. IS/ASET/H&A/video clips, if they are made available.

    There is currently no universally established criteria for judging H&A's. However, those embraced by reputable vendors share similar requirements. Clear H&A definition/resolution and shape symmetry are the underlying basis. Near H&A could mean anything from slightly misaligned arrow shafts to cleft hearts. Of course, the process of branding H&A's is more involved than through the casual observation/inspection that I'm making it seems here. Some vendors are more strict than others so their H&A stones are more respected.
     
  29. Yang Kin
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    by Yang Kin » Oct 13, 2017
    Thanks @Karl_K, I am actually directing my handphone torch light over the diamonds and move them around with my fingers. Under sunlight condition, the ACA is brighter, despite being a F colour vs Lazare's E colour.

    Smaller virtual facets -> So are you saying because the stone size of the Lazare is smaller, hence it is favoured by the lighting more? Probably because the distance needed to cover between the facets of the diamond is smaller compared to the ACA?
     
  30. Yang Kin
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    by Yang Kin » Oct 13, 2017
    For the ACA, it is 77%, for the Lazare, it is unknown, they don't put down in the report.
     

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