Help! A 4 carat quandary...

[poshmommy]

It is upgrade time!! I was lucky enough to spend an afternoon with Victor Canera looking at his Canera European Rounds. He did not have any currently in the size and color range I am looking for (4 carat, I). He is more than willing to look for a rough and do a custom cut. I'm very tempted to go this route. However, I am also considering an ACA from Whiteflash. I know they are both ideal options. I love the look of Victor's CER. However, there is a lot of unknown going that route. Meanwhile the Whiteflash stone is already done and perfect. I want Victor to set whatever I get so it would be easier if he sourced the stone and did the setting. I know it's a personal preference on the facet pattern. I was just hoping someone may have some advice for me. Thanks!!

 

[LLJsmom]

It is upgrade time!! I was lucky enough to spend an afternoon with Victor Canera looking at his Canera European Rounds. He did not have any currently in the size and color range I am looking for (4 carat, I). He is more than willing to look for a rough and do a custom cut. I'm very tempted to go this route. However, I am also considering an ACA from Whiteflash. I know they are both ideal options. I love the look of Victor's CER. However, there is a lot of unknown going that route. Meanwhile the Whiteflash stone is already done and perfect. I want Victor to set whatever I get so it would be easier if he sourced the stone and did the setting. I know it's a personal preference on the facet pattern. I was just hoping someone may have some advice for me. Thanks!!

Like you, I have met Victor. I have a setting from him and completely trust him. If I had the $$$, I would without a single moment's hesitation have Victor custom cut me a CER. I would know without a shadow of a doubt that the end result would be unbelievably beautiful. Done. Nothing more to think about.

My only delicious dilemma would be to choose the perfect setting.

I sure wish I had your problems...

 

[maccers]

Do you know what kind of look you want - antique cut vs modern brilliant? Victor's cut is a completely different look than a modern round brilliant. This is will especially noticeable in a four carat stone. Personally I'd go with the European cut but that's my preference.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Would you consider an excellent cut antique OEC in GIA J color? Because I know one that is going up for sale soon.

 

[msop04]

Wow!! So exciting! Can't wait to see what you decide! [emoji7][emoji322][emoji322]

 

[poshmommy]

Thanks, LLJsmom and Maccer! I'm 95% sure I want to go with Victor.

 

[m-2-b]

Sounds like a nice quandary to have, lol! What VC setting are you thinking about for this 4 ct stone?

 

[poshmommy]

Would you consider an excellent cut antique OEC in GIA J color? Because I know one that is going up for sale soon.

Maybe. I saw his 3 + carat K CER and was surprised how white it faced up. I never thought I would go below an H or I. Let me know when it goes up for sale. Thanks!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I will tell you that I have ACA's and a newly cut OEC (AVR) and I love both! I do like a classic Tiffany look with a modern round very much, and I kind of like newly cut OEC's in somewhat antique style settings. However, I put my newly cut OEC in my old Tiffany repro and have never settled on a new setting! I do also have an ideal cut round that I will probably put in a three stone ring.

Victor is wonderful and will make you a beautiful setting for either type of diamond.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Would you consider an excellent cut antique OEC in GIA J color? Because I know one that is going up for sale soon.

Maybe. I saw his 3 + carat K CER and was surprised how white it faced up. I never thought I would go below an H or I. Let me know when it goes up for sale. Thanks!

It belongs to a PSer who is consigning with Jewels by Grace. It is one of the best antique OECs I have seen (and I have seen it in person, too). I think it will take a few days before Grace gets it on her site, but I may be able to direct you to pictures before then once I ask the owner.

 

[poshmommy]

We talked about putting it in the Emilya. Such a beautiful setting! I currently have a 2 carat Asscher in an antique style setting done by Brian Gavin when he was still with Whiteflash. I'm keeping this to be the daily ring. It's taken all forms of abuse for 13 years and still looks great.

 

[poshmommy]

I will tell you that I have ACA's and a newly cut OEC (AVR) and I love both! I do like a classic Tiffany look with a modern round very much, and I kind of like newly cut OEC's in somewhat antique style settings. However, I put my newly cut OEC in my old Tiffany repro and have never settled on a new setting! I do also have an ideal cut round that I will probably put in a three stone ring.

Victor is wonderful and will make you a beautiful setting for either type of diamond.

I think if all things were equal, I would take the CER over the ACA. But of course, they are not equal. It looks like the CER will be coming in 5-10% more than the ACA. Still affordable. It's just hard to decide if it's worth it in the end. I have already compromised on color. At what point do you say enough compromising already?

Since you have and love both, which one would you choose given the same weight, color, clarity, and a slightly higher markup on the CER?

 

[poshmommy]

Would you consider an excellent cut antique OEC in GIA J color? Because I know one that is going up for sale soon.

Maybe. I saw his 3 + carat K CER and was surprised how white it faced up. I never thought I would go below an H or I. Let me know when it goes up for sale. Thanks!

It belongs to a PSer who is consigning with Jewels by Grace. It is one of the best antique OECs I have seen (and I have seen it in person, too). I think it will take a few days before Grace gets it on her site, but I may be able to direct you to pictures before then once I ask the owner.

Sounds good! Thanks! I'll keep an eye on the site.

 

[LLJsmom]

I think it would depend on what you really want. The sparkle pattern and light return of a CER is quite different from a MRB ACA. What would YOU enjoy the most?

 

[Gypsy]

I agree with LJ.

Your eyes are what matters. Did you get a chance to compare a MRB to the other stone side by side? Which one caught your heart? Cause if you buying a FOUR CARAT STONE it darned well better be what you like!

Also, you can negotiate a return policy with Grace that allows you to see the stone IN PERSON and see what you think of the color.

I think in a 4 carat stone tint could be an issue. And even one color grade might make a difference. Or it might not on the particular stone. I am IN LOVE with Coati's (Erika Winters) M. I have seen other M's and they can be too tinted for me. Even well cut ones (including an AVR). But THAT stone, the M came as a shock to me. I would gladly wear it because it is the perfect stone, IMO.

You have to love your stone. So if it means being patient until the right stone comes along, I think that's important too.

 

[m-2-b]

Having Victor possibly custom cut a CER and put it into an Emilya sounds like a dream project! We will all be anxiously awaiting your final decision!

 

[leukolenos]

Personally, I would be partial to the CER...but that's because I adore the euro faceting. It makes me all swoony.

BUT...if you feel that the color is a compromise, is that going to both you long term?

Otherwise, I think you just have to let your eyes decide. Which one makes you feel excited?

 

[pyramid]

Compromise until you have an even balance of the 4 C's including Cut and Carat weight too.
e.g.
D-F IF - VVS2 Ideal Cut
G-H VS1-VS2 Very Good Cut
I SI1 Good Cut
Let the carat weight fall at your budget price point. This is what high end jewellers teach the buying public. This
means for your budget you get a balance of quality and size. Not just Size, Cut and no balance, and the diamond dealers
can sell off low colour stones along with higher colours to their more prestige or better healed as they say customers.

I will tell you that I have ACA's and a newly cut OEC (AVR) and I love both! I do like a classic Tiffany look with a modern round very much, and I kind of like newly cut OEC's in somewhat antique style settings. However, I put my newly cut OEC in my old Tiffany repro and have never settled on a new setting! I do also have an ideal cut round that I will probably put in a three stone ring.

Victor is wonderful and will make you a beautiful setting for either type of diamond.

I think if all things were equal, I would take the CER over the ACA. But of course, they are not equal. It looks like the CER will be coming in 5-10% more than the ACA. Still affordable. It's just hard to decide if it's worth it in the end. I have already compromised on color. At what point do you say enough compromising already?

Since you have and love both, which one would you choose given the same weight, color, clarity, and a slightly higher markup on the CER?

 

[MollyMalone]

Compromise until you have an even balance of the 4 C's including Cut and Carat weight too.
e.g.
D-F IF - VVS2 Ideal Cut
G-H VS1-VS2 Very Good Cut
I SI1 Good Cut
Let the carat weight fall at your budget price point. This is what high end jewellers teach the buying public. This
means for your budget you get a balance of quality and size. Not just Size, Cut and no balance, and the diamond dealers
can sell off low colour stones along with higher colours to their more prestige or better healed as they say customers.

What "high end" jeweler, of any integrity, is counseling customers to buy stones that GIA has graded merely "good" in cut?

(My late father-in-law -- who was in the wholesale diamond trade, until he semi-retired to retail, and was passionate about diamonds -- sure didn't suggest the kind of sliding scale you're propounding. So I'm very interested in seeing your references for your general proposition)

 

[baroque]

Would you consider an excellent cut antique OEC in GIA J color? Because I know one that is going up for sale soon.

Not to highjack...but I may be interested in this!...

 

[msop04]

Compromise until you have an even balance of the 4 C's including Cut and Carat weight too.
e.g.
D-F IF - VVS2 Ideal Cut
G-H VS1-VS2 Very Good Cut
I SI1 Good Cut
Let the carat weight fall at your budget price point. This is what high end jewellers teach the buying public. This
means for your budget you get a balance of quality and size. Not just Size, Cut and no balance, and the diamond dealers
can sell off low colour stones along with higher colours to their more prestige or better healed as they say customers.

I will tell you that I have ACA's and a newly cut OEC (AVR) and I love both! I do like a classic Tiffany look with a modern round very much, and I kind of like newly cut OEC's in somewhat antique style settings. However, I put my newly cut OEC in my old Tiffany repro and have never settled on a new setting! I do also have an ideal cut round that I will probably put in a three stone ring.

Victor is wonderful and will make you a beautiful setting for either type of diamond.

I think if all things were equal, I would take the CER over the ACA. But of course, they are not equal. It looks like the CER will be coming in 5-10% more than the ACA. Still affordable. It's just hard to decide if it's worth it in the end. I have already compromised on color. At what point do you say enough compromising already?

Since you have and love both, which one would you choose given the same weight, color, clarity, and a slightly higher markup on the CER?

Anything other than Excellent cut is bad advice, regardless of what color/clarity you prefer. But, then again, you probably already knew this.

 

[poshmommy]

I agree with LJ.

Your eyes are what matters. Did you get a chance to compare a MRB to the other stone side by side? Which one caught your heart? Cause if you buying a FOUR CARAT STONE it darned well better be what you like!

Also, you can negotiate a return policy with Grace that allows you to see the stone IN PERSON and see what you think of the color.

I think in a 4 carat stone tint could be an issue. And even one color grade might make a difference. Or it might not on the particular stone. I am IN LOVE with Coati's (Erika Winters) M. I have seen other M's and they can be too tinted for me. Even well cut ones (including an AVR). But THAT stone, the M came as a shock to me. I would gladly wear it because it is the perfect stone, IMO.

You have to love your stone. So if it means being patient until the right stone comes along, I think that's important too.

Yes, I was able to compare his Canera Hearts and Arrows (2.3 carat H) to his Canera European Rounds (3.5 carat K, 2.0 G, 1.9 I, and I forget the carat weight E) under normal office lighting, hallway lighting, elevator lighting, and outside direct sun. Victor was so patient and never made me feel hurried or dumb. My Asscher is a G so I knew anywhere around that color was fine. Face up, I could not see the tint from any of them until we put the K against the E. Then I could see a little tint in the K. I could see the tint in the K from the side of course.

That is where the quandary comes in....all things equal, I would choose the CER. But he does not have a 4 carat CER and the market for such stones is not large enough for it to be profitable for him to stock them. The only way to get one is to commit and have it custom cut. I have no idea how the tint of an I will look in my custom 4 carat CER. If I was okay with the K I would like to think that going up 2 color grades and half a carat would be fine. Do you think that is a reasonable assumption? However, he did assure me that it will be fully covered by his upgrade policy. So if I see too much tint I guess I could just save up the difference and have a custom cut G done. Also, I was thinking about just moving to an H to be double safe. The budget will allow one step up. However, I think we are committed to buying it if it is 1 color up or down. If it ends up an I, we are still fine. If it ends up a G....that would be harder to stomach. (Victor said he has not been wrong on his prediction on a rough color before.)

Meanwhile whitefish has two 4 carat I's sitting right there in budget. I think some of the pressure I feel is that they had an H too. We were just too slow and it sold before we could take a look. Since I have been looking seriously, no one has had an ideal stone in a color better than an H in this carat weight.

We do have all the time in the world since the stone is not needed for a wedding. The only clock we race is the one governing the diamond price charts...

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I will tell you that I have ACA's and a newly cut OEC (AVR) and I love both! I do like a classic Tiffany look with a modern round very much, and I kind of like newly cut OEC's in somewhat antique style settings. However, I put my newly cut OEC in my old Tiffany repro and have never settled on a new setting! I do also have an ideal cut round that I will probably put in a three stone ring.

Victor is wonderful and will make you a beautiful setting for either type of diamond.

I think if all things were equal, I would take the CER over the ACA. But of course, they are not equal. It looks like the CER will be coming in 5-10% more than the ACA. Still affordable. It's just hard to decide if it's worth it in the end. I have already compromised on color. At what point do you say enough compromising already?

Since you have and love both, which one would you choose given the same weight, color, clarity, and a slightly higher markup on the CER?

My (long) story is a little like yours in that I had a G color ideal cut round under 2 cts and then wanted a 2+ ct AVR. The years I was initially looking, the AVRs were the only newly cut, excellent cut OECs available, so that is what I was focused on. I really wanted to go no lower than H color, but he never got one in (and I still think he has not ever gotten a stone H VS or higher above 2 cts) . He had I color in a 1.8. 2.1, and 2.3 ct. I finally sent for the 1.8 and it was too small and a lower color I, so I couldn't handle that. I sent for a few stones during the process. I looked at a 2.19 I SI1 that had come in as a trade (although VS is my preference), and a J just to compare color. It was funny but at first I thought the 2.19 was too big (lol!!!), and I decided I didn't want to go to J. But that I color one was a higher I color and didn't bother me at all, so I learned where my color limit was. Next I sent for his 2.1 ct I color stone and loved it. But I felt like it was a mistake not to at least look at the 2.3 since it was sitting there. Sooooo, I did, and I struggled with the decision, partly because the prices were higher than H&A ideal cut rounds, but that 2.3 was very, very tempting, so I kept it!!!

Both H&A and the newly cut OECs have excellent light return, and no one seeing your hand at a normal viewing distance will really notice the difference. They will both have great light return and light up completely in good lighting. I always love looking at my ring in stores like Target and Walmart that have halogen lighting, because I love seeing the beautiful facet pattern!

I have considered changing to a H&A to go up a color grade, but I know the stone I have is rare and unique and is large enough to appreciate the facet pattern. You really have to love them to be willing to pay higher than the price of a H&A stone, but there wouldn't be much that I think would be prettier than a 4 ct newly cut OEC (CER) in an Emilya setting.

For myself, I resolved my situation by staying with H&A stones (ACAs) for my studs. They are bright and white and can be seen from a distance. I just can't justify the price of the newly cut OECs for the ears when no one including me can see that facet pattern on ears!

Most of the girls here who have bought 4 and 5 ct H&A stones have gone with I color because they do face up very white. My I color AVR faces up white in most lighting. It looks worst in the car with window tint, but I have heard people say that who have whiter stones, too. I actually think the contrast of the halo with an I color stone is very pretty, so I wouldn't have a problem with that. The main reason I have not set mine in a halo is that where I live, 2 cts is large, so I am not really comfortable adding the halo.

That may be more info that you were wanting, but you can see others go through the same sort of thought process, at least!

 

[Gypsy]

Okay so. I think you need a little information.

I am happy Victor showed you a nice color range. I do think shooting for H color, if your budget can handle that, would be ideal.

Why? Because usually when stones are custom cut there is no guarantee of exact color hit. The vendor selects the round closest to the requested color, but especially with large diamonds, rough is scarce sometimes and there is no guarantee that the lab will agree with the vendor on color. It's not an exact science, color grading. Color grading is assumes a range within each color grade. So something could be a low E or a high F and the lab would have to pick between those two grades. So the vendor normally will not be able to guarantee that "H" will be the color that the lab comes back with. It could be a high I, or a low G. And it's not like they will keep cutting 4 carat stones until they hit H. They will get one shot at this, and you will assume the risk of the grading coming back one color grade higher or lower.

So you need to discuss that with Victor. So I think if you shoot for H. You will be happier as if it comes back an I, you are still fine.

I do think that going the custom cut route is a good idea, but not right away. Keep it on the back burner. You are spending a lot of money. So I think it is worthwhile to investigate "true vintage" stones too and see if there some appeal there for you.

Also GOG has the AVR which is very similar to Victor's vintage rounds. So that might be something you can look into as well.

You have lots of options. Explore them all.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Would you consider an excellent cut antique OEC in GIA J color? Because I know one that is going up for sale soon.

Not to highjack...but I may be interested in this!...

Can you contact me from LoupeTroop? I have the same username there, so just search it and click on one of my old listings and I have my email address on the listing. Don't use LT messaging.

 

[poshmommy]

Would you consider an excellent cut antique OEC in GIA J color? Because I know one that is going up for sale soon.

Not to highjack...but I may be interested in this!...

Can you contact me from LoupeTroop? I have the same username there, so just search it and click on one of my old listings and I have my email address on the listing. Don't use LT messaging.

Did it! (I think...)

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I got it and replied!

 

[leukolenos]

Unrelated, but any chance you were at William Noble today?

 

[arkieb1]

Talk to Victor, I assume that if he cuts you a 4 carat stone that is intended to be a I or a H and it comes back a J then he would have to cut you another stone or would refund your money if it is not what you were seeking.

I'd go for a 4 carat Old Cut by Victor in one of his halos in a heartbeat, that would be about as perfect as you could get IMHO.

 

[Gypsy]

Talk to Victor, I assume that if he cuts you a 4 carat stone that is intended to be a I or a H and it comes back a J then he would have to cut you another stone or would refund your money if it is not what you were seeking.

I'd go for a 4 carat Old Cut by Victor in one of his halos in a heartbeat, that would be about as perfect as you could get IMHO.

That is not my understanding of custom cut stones. You assume the risk and purchase the rough. Whatever happens, the risk is yours.