Heated vs unheated sapphire

[DotDot]

Hi all PSers,

Thanks for always being helpful. I have been wondering about the price difference between heated vs unheated sapphires.

Say I have two sapphires in the same color range, shape, carat weight, and similar inclusion. Both are well saturated and nice rich blue. Both are Sri Lankan stones. How much a price difference per ct should I expect?

Thanks ahead for tips!

 

[cm366]

Hi DotDot!

There have been quite a few lengthy threads on this, two quite recently, which always seem to boil down to "It depends." Might be worth taking a look at them.....

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/comments-from-a-jeweler-re-heated-vs-unheated-sapphires.138546/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/comments-from-a-jeweler-re-heated-vs-unheated-sapphires.138546/[/URL]

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/price-difference-heated-vs-unheated-fine-sapphire.197734/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/price-difference-heated-vs-unheated-fine-sapphire.197734/[/URL]

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/true-value-of-heated-sapphires-as-opposed-to-unheated.201206/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/true-value-of-heated-sapphires-as-opposed-to-unheated.201206/[/URL]

I find it hard to get much use out of the forum's search function, but a Google search with "pricescope" and my terms of interest is usually pretty good. Hope it helps!

 

[minousbijoux]

As cm said, there have been a few threads because its a tough one to answer. I wish there was a straight formula we could all apply and know, for example, that an unheated will cost X% more than a heated one. If really pressed, I might say that many would fall in the 30% - 100% range, but there are just so many variables. For example, I recently bought an unheated sapphire from a vendor for about the same price as a comparable heated one in their inventory, due to the fact that the heated ones were more recent acquisitions with the higher price tags associated with blue sapphires these days.

 

[chrono]

Say I have two sapphires in the same color range, shape, carat weight, and similar inclusion. Both are well saturated and nice rich blue. Both are Sri Lankan stones. How much a price difference per ct should I expect?
Thanks ahead for tips!

Depends on:
1. The carat weight
2. The colour
3. How much the vendor(s) sourced both stones for and their overhead (profit margins)

 

[DotDot]

I hope I can word my dilemma well without getting too specific.

I am looking at two Sri Lankan blue sapphires in 3+ ct. One heated, one not. The heated one has more vivid/saturated blue. The unheated is a slightly less saturated blue. All else are very similar, near identical size, shape, inclusion... And the unheated is quoted slightly less than the heated one!!

Knowing unheated should command higher price if all equal,I think the unheated one was acquired before the recent price increase and due to the slightly less saturation. On one hand, I love the heated one slightly more for the color; on the other hand, who would want to pass up on a good deal on the unheated one? Only I have enough $$ for both!!

What would you pick? Thanks ahead for your advise. Who knows spending money can be so torturous!

 

[eastjavaman]

We need to at least see the pictures and the reports

 

[cm366]

Personally, I would always pick the stone with better visual appearance, as long as I'm comfortable with its treatments (I don't buy dyed stones, for example). I'm more of a gem admirer than a mineral specimen admirer, and I'm happier with the prettier one than the 'mind clean' stone that's all natural except for being dug out, sawed up and ground down to size.

Small variations in saturation can account for big variations in price - as eastjavaman said, we'd need to see pics before having much of an opinion, but if they're close and I trusted the seller I'd ask for a description, or even purchase both to see them together, with the intention of returning one.

 

[chrono]

Are they both from the same vendor?
Any chance of pictures? I prefer to know as much as I can before sharing which one I would pick if I were in your shoes.
Does the heated stone come with a lab report stating that it is heat only? Which lab issued the report?

 

[DotDot]

Hi PSers, thanks for the tips. I realize I have to upload some pictures; words are just not enough (hope the vendors are okay with me sharing the pics).

The stones are from two vendors. That adds to the difficulty of comparing. Both are Pear shaped (though vendor 1 showed me a lot of wonderful stones).

Here is pear 1: GIA certed heat only. 3.52ct. 10.23x7.5x6.27mm.

 

[DotDot]

Pear 2: 3.55 ct. AGL cert as unheated. 9.91 x 7.42 x 6.41mm




Pear 1 has a feather around 10 o'clock if pointer of the stone points up
Pear 2 has an inclusion as marked.

As I said, Pear 2 is unheated but asking for less.

I have always been relying on your opinion on making wise decisions when purchasing. Please chime in. Also some of the vendor1's slightly smaller stones are wonderful too. Let me know if any of those look better. Those are easier to stomach.

Thanks ahead!!

 

[chrono]

Unless you have seen both stones in person, side by side, there is no way to say definitively that one stone has better saturation than the other. I don't know the lighting used (which affects the colour of the sapphire), the photography method/style and whether one sapphire is more eye clean than the other. I would guess that if you have sharp eyes, the inclusion in Pear 2 might not be eye clean under certain light conditions. The second thing you have not asked is about colour shifting. Some sapphires do not look as nice under indoor lighting.

 

[minousbijoux]

I would also add that pear 2 has its photos taken outside. From my experience, this tends to make the stone its most saturated and brightest, so my guess would be that in many lighting situations, it would appear darker in tone and a bit greyer - or less saturated - than it does now. As to the inclusions, if you think they will bother you, ask each vendor if they would be visible from 8 inches away with the naked eye. I find that vendors' definitions vary as to what is "eye clean."

 

[DotDot]

Thanks, Chrono and Minous!! Pear 1 does not turn black (I thought pic 2 shows the lower lighting?). That was one of the requirements. I don't have that much info on pear 2 since the vendor is busy these couple days and will get back to me with more info. I suspect both can spot the inclusion to some degree. So no clear winner?

What are your impression of the first set of stones?

 

[royalstarrynight]

If vendor 1 is who I think it is, pear 1 doesn't go dark in either outdoor or indoor lighting. I've played with it and it's pretty enough if you like a straight up blue

You could probably ask that vendor to take pictures next to the window or even take a peek outdoors. If I've guessed both vendors correctly, I would always buy from vendor 1 but I'm very biased...And I could be wrong!

It's very hard to compare pricing of two separate stones heated and unheated due to color/tone differences. If I also remember correctly vendor 1's stone was priced fairly for heated.

I suspect vendor 2's stone won't look nearly as nice in hand compared to the picture.

Sorry if that's a lot of mixed up blabber!

 

[DotDot]

Royalstarrynight, are you one of the people who visited Ryan? He mentioned. Is there one that wins out in the 2-3+ct? I am very pleased with their service but I am being a difficult/indecisive customer. In the picture above, the Emerald cut is 2.72ct. The oval is 2.55ct.

Thanks ahead!!

 

[royalstarrynight]

Yep. I'm one of the people that spends 2-3 hours every time I visit Ryan. Oops.

I don't remember exact specs of the pear or the others. I briefly played with it on my hand out of 20 some stones. There was only blue pear in that bunch. I personally would trust his eye in which stone is prettiest unless you have a personal preference of colors/tone that you know very well. Just be open and honest to him about what you want.

They make some of the most beautiful pieces!

 

[royalstarrynight]

I apologize. I misunderstood your question previously. To be honest, I only remember the pear because Ryan pointed it out to me. I remember seeing an emerald and a few ovals but didn't really pay attention to them. I'm sorry. But I trust that you are in good hands!

 

[DotDot]

Thank you. I will continue to work with the vendors and report back.

 

[chrono]

Is there any way you can order/purchase both pears to compare them side by side under various lights and angles? We are now trying to split hairs gauging the nuances of colour and clarity from 2 photographs (taken using different methods and lights) which is almost impossible to do so fairly and accurately.

 

[royalstarrynight]

I hope DotDot doesn't mind me speaking up but one of the vendor she's working with is a B&M and isn't used to having return policies. It may be a little more complicated.

 

[royalstarrynight]

Considering that most of Vendor2's reviews tend to say that his hand shots are more accurate than his straight on shots, I'd say Vendor1 (Ryan's stone) is more saturated.

I wouldn't be surprised if Vendor1's stone was cheaper either.

 

[DotDot]

Hello, thanks for keeping an eye on the topic.

I have ordered the first pear along with an oval from Ryan for evaluation. He has been most accommodating and we worked out a way for me to look at the two stones in person with the intention of possibly keeping one and return one (or both).

Just to show the options. They are the two in the middle.


Couple other shots.




They are heated and a little more pricy per ct than the unheated pear. Thus prompted my initial question. I considered what cm366 said and agreed I am more a gem admirer too. So nicer color is what I am after.

In terms of price, I have reached out to couple other vendors and were told they don't have what I am looking for at my price range. So I guess the prices quoted from Ryan is quite decent. So wish there is a price chart that buyers can follow easily for color stones (like diamond)!!

In addition, both stones came with GIA certificates that says heated. Is it enough to assume there are no other funny treatments done? I know AGL is better. When I looked, I thought the only report that may provide additional information than the GIA one is the AGL Prestige Grading report. But is it worth it for a stone of few thousands and will never sell?

Please feel free to share your opinion between the two stones above. You have been most helpful.

 

[chrono]

GIA is good enough; they also test for diffusion so if it says heat only, it's truly heat only with no added elements.

 

[T L]

Hello, thanks for keeping an eye on the topic.

I have ordered the first pear along with an oval from Ryan for evaluation. He has been most accommodating and we worked out a way for me to look at the two stones in person with the intention of possibly keeping one and return one (or both).

Just to show the options. They are the two in the middle.


Couple other shots.




They are heated and a little more pricy per ct than the unheated pear. Thus prompted my initial question. I considered what cm366 said and agreed I am more a gem admirer too. So nicer color is what I am after.

In terms of price, I have reached out to couple other vendors and were told they don't have what I am looking for at my price range. So I guess the prices quoted from Ryan is quite decent. So wish there is a price chart that buyers can follow easily for color stones (like diamond)!!

In addition, both stones came with GIA certificates that says heated. Is it enough to assume there are no other funny treatments done? I know AGL is better. When I looked, I thought the only report that may provide additional information than the GIA one is the AGL Prestige Grading report. But is it worth it for a stone of few thousands and will never sell?

Please feel free to share your opinion between the two stones above. You have been most helpful.

I agree with Chrono. I think for regular blue sapphires, GIA is fine, although many here know I prefer AGL. I do like AGL for very expensive gems that have the following criteria associated with them.

1)a premium on their marketing name (padparadcha for example)
2)a premium on their origin,
3)potentially diffused (usually corundum) and other very difficult to detect treatment/synthetics.
4)have a high charge due to the premium and or marketing name designation, and you really need to know the quality of the gem as far as saturation, hue, tone, color change (when applicable), and clarity are concerned.

Bumese rubies, padparadcha sapphires, fine alexandrites, fine Colombian emeralds, and other sapphires with expensive origins (Burmese and Kashmir) are ideal candidates, especially if they're very expensive, for a FULL AGL prestige report.

People shouldn't run out and get an AGL prestige report on every gem, as it is very expensive, and not always fully necessary. I do think the AGL gem brief is a good value though. I've used that report on numerous gems, and it always ran me around $60 to $200 for various size gems and treatment detection. I have some of them for various sapphires I own.

 

[arjunajane]

Is there any way you can order/purchase both pears to compare them side by side under various lights and angles? We are now trying to split hairs gauging the nuances of colour and clarity from 2 photographs (taken using different methods and lights) which is almost impossible to do so fairly and accurately.

Yep, given the circumstances, being two different stones at two differing vendors with all the many variables inv=between that entails - photog methods, lighting, different personal preference, standards and 'eyes' on the vendor, ways of describing & communicating, pricing structures, so on and so forth..My suggestion would also be to ask about seeing both on memo, if at all possible. I believe this is the only sure fire way for you not to be always wondering "was that other one the better one???"...

 

[DotDot]

Thank you for the quick responses. I agree an full AGL report is overkill.

I wonder what you consider the color of the ones I've shown. It's more blue with less violet, than the ideal. But that's as far as I can gauge. Seems to have good saturation. Please be frank with me if they are too dark, etc. I need expert eyes to help me evaluate them.

 

[chrono]

Not everyone likes the trade ideal but most do. What is YOUR ideal hue? I don't see any major concerns with the pear or oval. Given the price of the stones and their importance, I would view both stones in person in making the final decision.

 

[royalstarrynight]

Part of how they kept the price so low on those stones is they had free coupons for GIA certs. Otherwise you would had seen a price bump.

 

[RandG]

Wow, you have a really difficult, but exciting decision to make. I love the setting you chose, BTW.

When given the option, and assuming you love both stones and the price point, I would always choose an unheated sapphire, particularly if you have a cert from GIA or AGS which confirms it.

It's gotten increasingly difficult to find sapphires which have not been heat treated. My feeling is, if its been heat treated, what else has been done? Having toured a processing facility in India several years ago, I will never again buy a sapphire that has been treated, or which I cannot place its origin.

I know you don't plan to resell today, but you never know. Even when I get emotional about a piece, I always look for items that I know will either hold their value or increase in value over time. An unheated sapphire will increase in value as these sapphires are more and more rare. Production of heated stones is only becoming more common.

I can show you some photos of different sapphires if it will help. Good luck!

 

[DotDot]

Thank you all for repsonses.

RoyalStarryNight: The GIA ID report is only $100+, why does it have much an impact for the pricing?

Chrono: my ideal color? I am looking for sparkling medium dark blue with a nice cut. Ideal color is great. If I have to trade off, I rather go a shade lighter than a shade darker since I don't want a stone that turns black indoor. I also don't want the color to be too light that it looks like tanzanite. I love Royal blue and Cobalt blue. How far away are these from ideal color?

RandG: I hope the second vendor will send me additional information soon. Then I may consider pull in the stone for comparison.

All in all, thanks for the great advices and keep them coming!