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GIA & EGLUSA -- Same Grading

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DBM

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
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Recently took in a trade-in stone that had GIA certificate from ''95. Resubmitted it to EGLUSA recently. Came back the same I VS2. Only difference was GIA was Medium Blue and EGLUSA was Faint. Thought I''d just give a little persepctive about EGLUSA and GIA differences.

As an aside this stone is also a good example of not just reading the certificate. People would gawk at the 55% depth on this stone but it in fact shows no fisheye whatsoever and faces up like a 1 1/4 even though it''s only a 1.04. Certs attached. btw, stone is not for sale. i''m not posting this as a sales pitch.

8661305.jpg
 

Ellen

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Interesting! This can be a good reference. Thanks for posting.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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I don't think this proves anything, or makes EGL look any better in my eyes.
This is just one stone.
Sample size: one.

Besides, the same stone can come back from the *same* lab with grades that vary by one grade.

I'm not expert.
I've only been reading here for a year.

Based on what I read I still feel GIA has higher standards than EGL.
That's why EGL stones are less expensive.

Sure an expert may find a bargain EGL stone now and then.
But few customers are experts and we depend on the credibility and long-term reputation of the labs, not on one or two hand-picked examples.
 

DBM

Shiny_Rock
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404
Date: 12/26/2006 2:58:16 PM
Author: kenny
I don''t think this proves anything, or makes EGL look any better in my eyes.
This is just one stone.
Sample size one.

Besides, the same stone can come back from the *same* lab with grades that vary by one grade.

I''m not expert.
I''ve only been reading here for a year.

Based on what I read I still feel GIA has higher standards than EGL.
That''s why EGL stones are less expensive.
without question EGLUSA is less harsh/strickt/softer than GIA.. but it''s not a fraud or scam or something. that''s my point kenny.,
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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You presented an example of a stone that got equal grading from EGL and GIA.

It appears to me that you are trying to make a point, and it is not that EGL is softer.
 

Ellen

Super_Ideal_Rock
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DBM

Shiny_Rock
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Oct 24, 2006
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Date: 12/26/2006 3:04:18 PM
Author: kenny
You presented an example of a stone that got equal grading from EGL and GIA.

It appears to me that you are trying to make a point, and it is not that EGL is softer.
???
 

Regular Guy

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 6, 2004
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5,951
Kenny,

Back off. Actually, I think it's Pricescope virtually institutional knowledge that EGL USA is one of the "better guys..."...see Grading Survey above under Reviews.

In a recent post, you made the differentiation yourself, I'm sure (saying if you know more, you'd consider it, right?).

The two more major problems with EGL USA are these:

a) manpower...finding the EGL USA among the EGLs
b) guessing why it was sent there vs GIA or AGS. If more $ could be had from either, why not sent there. Maybe not cut so well? Other questions about it, having it sent to a "second tier" grader?
 

JohnQuixote

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 9, 2004
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5,212
EGL does take a beating on the internet. Deserved or not, it’s the current perception.If the lab wants to change that (who knows if they do) it will take some doing. For the record, the EGL-USA labs in NY and LA are more consistent than their locations abroad.

When seeing diamonds live I’m not thinking about the paper. There are nice stones graded by other labs and when I ask for the reports some are reasonable and others make my forehead crinkle. But that's the advantage to shopping live...you’re eyeballing the sparkly diamond first; the grading report is secondary.

On the internet it’s the reverse. People see the report & photos and will be putting down their hard-earned money before they ever see the diamond.Inconsistency makes shoppers nervous and other labs don’t bridge the chasm of trust like AGS and GIA do.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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I believe I have read here EGL Israel is least respected, EGL europe in the middle and EGL USA the top. - For EGL.
Then one step up the lab food chain is GIA then AGS.

Yes people report here that stones can be found that are exceptions, but I don't think anyone wants to go on record saying all labs are the same.

A vendor with a lot of stones with EGLUSA paper just started a thread titled, "GIA & EGLUSA -- Same Grading"

Now what's a newbie doing a search to think?
That sums it up?
EGLUSA and GIA are equal?

Sorry for speaking up but I thought this was a consumer advocate site.

It is almost like PCness of equality, and anything that reeks of judging is bad, is now extending to all labs.


Sorry, but there is a reason stones graded by certain labs command higher prices.
Why does that make me a bad guy?
 

DBM

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
404
I sell EGLUSA because i believe in it and i posted what i posted because it''s what i believe in. I''m not geared for PS customers anyway so i''m not interested specifically in getting customers from this website. If anything this website is more of a sounding board for me which provides me feedback.
 

Regular Guy

Ideal_Rock
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5,951
Date: 12/26/2006 3:40:06 PM
Author: kenny
I believe I have read here EGL Israel is least respected, EGL europe in the middle and EGL USA the top. - For EGL.
Then one step up the lab food chain is GIA then AGS.
Yes, so I read the same. I earlier was mostly responding to your non-differentiated language when referring to EGL, but your notes above update this. Also, note...


Sorry, but there is a reason stones graded by certain labs command higher prices.
Why does that make me a bad guy?
Kenny, your comments don''t make you the bad guy...you started out that way.



No, actually, personally, I do think it''s useful to try to figure out the nits...and rather than state: "there is a reason stones graded by certain labs command higher prices...," rather, figure that out, perhaps.

This particular stone has, for an example, an extremely thin girdle (according to GIA, but just thin according to EGL...that''s a pretty important difference, too, right?), and also, is noted as only "good" for both symmetry (particularly) and also polish & finish, right (for both labs)?

Maybe it''s not careful to say they were graded the same.

In particular, maybe if sent to GIA, a) the cut would come back as noted as "good," and b) despite Daniel''s original point, maybe there''s reasons to be concerned after all.

With respect to this being a consumer advocate site...although it''s easy enough to say...only pay highest for the best...you get your money''s worth in this being a consumer advocate site by trying to cipher...arbitrage...the model, and consider when it does make sense to not go for the luxury wagon, and instead, go for the minivan, which, while now unpopular, may actually get you what you want.

Does EGL USA provide this? I''m not sure. The question, it seems to me, does not lie in the quality of the grading work up, but more...the quality of the good sent there in the first place.
 

blue76

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
Messages
5
My experience with EGLUS certified diamonds has been bad. My parents bought a .7ct VS2 F color center diamond EGLUS certified diamond 2 months ago. When they brought it home I looked at it and saw a very visible inclusion near the surface. It was clearly visible and I was dumbfounded on how EGLUS could grade it a VS2!! Took out my magnifier and saw some other incluisons. I went to the EGLUS website and typed in the number and sure enought there was my diamond. I then substituted the last number for one higher (eg. 14532 for 14531) and found another diamond with the same grade but a .71ct. I then did the same thing, substitited the number for one higher and found the same grade on a different diamond. All these diamonds were graded on the same day, had the same cut, and were graded exactly the same! Seems to me EGLUS grades in bulk and will satisfy their larger customers giving their diamonds bulk grades. THe same thing happens in sports card grading. Its a shame really. I called EGLUS in LA and asked them how they could grade a diamond VS2 when an inclusion was obviously there. The inclusion was so bad it made the diamond look like there was a linear scratch on it! Their response was for me to send the diamond to them to get it regraded! Yeah right, I went back to the store my parents bought the diamond from and got a GIA certified diamond instead. I spent 2 hours with my 16x magnifier on this one and was very satisfied.
 

DBM

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
404
Date: 12/26/2006 5:48:46 PM
Author: blue76
My experience with EGLUS certified diamonds has been bad. My parents bought a .7ct VS2 F color center diamond EGLUS certified diamond 2 months ago. When they brought it home I looked at it and saw a very visible inclusion near the surface. It was clearly visible and I was dumbfounded on how EGLUS could grade it a VS2!! Took out my magnifier and saw some other incluisons. I went to the EGLUS website and typed in the number and sure enought there was my diamond. I then substituted the last number for one higher (eg. 14532 for 14531) and found another diamond with the same grade but a .71ct. I then did the same thing, substitited the number for one higher and found the same grade on a different diamond. All these diamonds were graded on the same day, had the same cut, and were graded exactly the same! Seems to me EGLUS grades in bulk and will satisfy their larger customers giving their diamonds bulk grades. THe same thing happens in sports card grading. Its a shame really. I called EGLUS in LA and asked them how they could grade a diamond VS2 when an inclusion was obviously there. The inclusion was so bad it made the diamond look like there was a linear scratch on it! Their response was for me to send the diamond to them to get it regraded! Yeah right, I went back to the store my parents bought the diamond from and got a GIA certified diamond instead. I spent 2 hours with my 16x magnifier on this one and was very satisfied.
I''m sorry to hear of your experience but in all honesty i think it''s unfair to assume because of your test with the certificate numbers that they graded everything "in bulk". Do you really think you can write off an entire accredited organization with a simple observation like that. All of the gemologists there. all the appraisers there... you''re making a bold statement from a limited amount of info.
Secondly I don''t see how you can be so upset with the grading of the VS2 when you have such limited experience with stones and grading. Just because you can see an inclusion doesn''t mean it can''t be a VS2 even by GIA standards. The real test i think would have been to have given that stone to GIA and seen what it came back as, that i think would have provided a valuable litmus test for the variance in the grading standards. Or atleast you could have given them a fair chance and sent the stone in for regrading before choosing to put them down here. Instead you just want to make a punching bag out of them.
Also, why are you viewing something under 16x magnification when both GIA and EGLUSA go by 10x? of course you''ll see a whole lot more inclusions that will look more obvious.

One of the reasons I like to keep a presence on this website is because i honestly feel there''s an unequal balance here IMO in views and I feel that in some ways alot of people who (unfortunate as it may be) got ripped off or had a bad experience from dishonest vendors like to nondiscriminently vent all there anger here, set up there "targets" for who are the bad guys, and start shooting... without any regard for how there blanket accusations besmirch or hurt alot of damn good people in this industry (if i do say so myself :) ).
... now look at me... i''m doing the same i guess lol :)... anyway my 2 cents. cheers!
 

oldminer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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Sep 3, 2000
Messages
6,322
At both dealer level and consumer level, the EGL graded diamond is worth somewhat less based on the way the market approves of or discredits certain labs and their reports. So, it iis best to sell a stone with identical GIA and EGL grades with only the GIA report being advertised. For this exact reason one of the conclusions of our small sample report on the labs was that bargains often occur with EGL documents. This is such a stone.

Differences between labs are acceptable so long as reputable dealers keep the value based on the sone and not just the paper.
 

blue76

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
Messages
5
Thanks for your response and empathy DBM. I said it seems to me that they grade in bulk, key word being seems. I''m not writing, nor did I ever write they grade everything in bulk. Maybe I should have said it seems they grade some diamonds in bulk. They certainly pregrade diamonds in bulk as their own website states that.

It is true I am not a grader. I am just going by the grading standards set in place by EGL-USA themselves! VS2 as EGL-USA admitted to me on the telephone and on their own website- inclusions and blemishes difficult to locate under 10x magnification. Now when I got this diamond I thought it needed to be cleaned, thats how obvious the incluison was. As you say I am a novice which makes it even worse that I could spot the inclusion with the naked eye! Not only did I spot it, but everyother person I showed the ring to spotted it also. With a 10x loop it was very noticable.

The funny part is when I called EGL-USA and asked them what a VS2 should be, the person could not answer my question. She referred me to their gemologist who stated the abovementioned grading standards. It was he who said I sould send it back for a regrade. Since we bought the diamond only a day prior it was in my best interest to bring it back to the dealer we had bought it from. I posted on this site with my problem and one response was to have it appraised which I did. It cam back SI2 and F. That sounded more like what I thought all along.

Does it sound like I''m Rocky Marciano? I don''t think I''m using EGL as a punching bag. Its my experience that I am sharing with others.

Now remember I never accused EGL-USA for grading all their diamonds in bulk, I am accusing them of botching the grading of a diamond I had. That and to go along with the fact that 7 other diamonds with consecutive seriel numbers were graded on the same date with the same grade should raise concerns, especially when one of them can be graded by an appraiser and a novice as SI2-3 in quality.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Messages
26,980
Doesn't grading softer increase EGL's business?
As long as we are on that topic doesn't GIA's larger top cut grade increase their business (over AGS's tighter grade) too?
(GIA's top grade allows steeper deeper cuts, than AGS's, so they save more rough and make more profit. After-all most customers just know they want a 1-carat stone, not a optimally-cut 1-carat.)
Everyone wants to sell (price) a diamond as having a high grade.
Very few customers know about AGS's tighter standard so GIA gets away with this industry-friendly grading.

Isn't is sad there is not one standard that all labs follow.
To me the customer looses.

Joe Boyfriend shops and thinks he bought her a "G VS1".
It says G VS1 right on the report so it must be a G VS1.
Right?

I think it is very sad.

There should be one standard everyone has to follow, like it is in many other industries.
Imagine if Honda had their own "standard" for horsepower or MPG, that was softer "because we serve a different part of the market".

Or, "Our 18K gold has 70% gold instead of 75% because we give you a break on the price."
60-Minutes would do a special on them so fast it would make their heads spin.

I think if all these labs don't convert their grading "standards" into true standards someone else is going to eventually do it for them.
The Internet is the great equalizer.
Knowledge is power.

Or, on the contrary, do you guys think nothing is broken?
Would you say the free market resulted in what we have today and it serves all the market segments well?
 

Kaleigh

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Nov 18, 2004
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29,570
I guess to me EGL USA has it's place. Do I wish they were tougher in their grading yes. But not everyone has the exacting standards that I have, ( after all this is PS land). There has to be a C. If I had to rank them, AGS would be A, GIA would be B and EGL USA would be C. C as in close, meaning what you thought you bought is close to what you actually bought, but could be off here and there...Clarity, color etc.. I will say we are tough on the internet, but if I were a newbie I'd welcome the info here and be glad that I found PS and buy as an informed consumer. And yes there are cases where an EGL USA stone comes out to be exactly as it was graded. Just haven't heard too many of those stories on here. I hope to hear more of them.
JMHO
 

DBM

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
404
blue-- that's fair what you said. point made and taken.

fyi though the "customer service" of EGLUSA are a group of young girls sitting behind bulletproof glass windows whose primary function are to receive stones and return them to diamond dealers. That and data entry. The "customer service" is not meant for the consumer market, as in calling to get info on diamonds but rather it's service vis-a-vis the dealers who submit diamonds who want to know status of their submissions, due dates, pricing info, billing info, etc. Those girls have really nothing to do with diamonds and have very little training in it.
 
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